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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | TheDwf September 14 2012 12:20. Posts 3599 | Profile # |
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wYOt6ss.png) - Anyone is allowed to answer. Try to backup your statements with pro game examples whenever possible. However, if you assert something wildly wrong, especially without enough support, you will be warned/banned. If you are unsure of the validity of an idea, just ask a question instead.
- In general this thread is here to help bridge the gap between proven pro level strategies/ideas and the average player, not for you to give your opinion (unless it has very sufficient grounding from pro game evidence).
- Don't ask the same questions that are in the OP.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/BZ7Ppfb.png)
Q. What are the standard recommended strategies per match-up?
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Q. What are the best all-ins versus each race?
+ Show Spoiler [Answer] +TvP- Proxy factory starport with 3 hellion drop into marine/tank/banshee. Taeja vs Finale, TSL Ro8 KR qualifier, Antiga.
- Gas rax hellion/marauder + scvs. MarineKing vs Killer, MLG Raleigh, Antiga.
TvTThis heavily depends on how they open, but all-ins will either open rax gas or gas rax will try to do damage with either banshee or marine/hellion elevator, and usually transition into marine/tank/banshee off 1 base.- Rax gas cloak banshee into marine/tank/banshee. MVP vs Polt, GSTL, Dual Sight.
- Gas rax fact reactor port hellion elevator into banshee (all buildings proxied near main). Alive vs Binski, MLG Raleigh, Daybreak.
TvZ- 11/11, either proxy or forward. Pull 5-7 scvs (3 for a more economic variation). Keen vs Life, TSL Semis, Ohana.
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Rjt8mGt.png) Q. Are Reaper/Hellion openers still viable?
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Ver wrote:
I guess. They are pretty gimmicky but are seen once in awhile.
Q. How do you deal with gas first banshees when going for a gasless expand?
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Ver wrote:
When he comes with a banshee you don't just blindly 1a after it and let him kite you perfectly in a rhythm. Instead you form a perpendicular line to get the maximum firing power and when you think he's going to fire and pull back, you retreat instead of walking forward so he whiffs. By doing this right if he's going to get shots off he's going to take hits as well.
Q. How do I hold off a 1/1/1 push off 1 base with a 1 rax CC into 3 rax build?
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On September 01 2012 14:25 Ver wrote:
Vs 1 base- You need to stall by repairing your bunker long enough for medivacs to come out. Then immediately drop 2 full ones behind his army and cut his reinforcements while floating the factory near his army to know when he unsieges. When both stim/combat are done, you want to pull your nat scvs (or lift into the main if needed), let them take the first tank volley, pre spread your units, and stim forward from 2 sides.
Alternatively you can go for the base trade with a double drop and just delay his push as long as possible by forcing a lot of slow sieges, then bring your army from his main back and converge on his push. This is more questionable if the mains are too far apart though.
TheDwf wrote:
General idea is: stall for Medivacs/Stim (if you went CS first), then drop 16 Marines to flank (spread them) while using SCVs + your other Marines to attack at the front. You should be able to break the contain if you didn't take too much damage from the initial harassment (Banshees or Marines/Hellions elevators).
Q. Any resources on gas first BFH expand?
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TheDwf wrote:A rare bird. ( ForGG vs ClouD, Dreamhack Valencia 2012, Antiga; ForGG vs Taeja, Dreamhack Valencia 2012, Ohana). After gas rax fact the BFH expand build order goes: 22 - 4'15 - Blue Flame 22 - 4'15 - Hellion (immediately go poke your opponent's natural/main with this Hellion) 23 - 4'50 - CC (slight SCV cut after 23 SCVs) 24 - 5'10 - Starport 2X - Refinery 2X - 5'35 - Reactor on Barracks Since this build order is very tight on minerals you normally forgo SCV scout; don't be surprised if you can't reach exactly those benchmarks/timings with a SCV scout. Sequence still stands. If you can't rule out Banshee play, you have to get a Viking first (out at ~6'40) with your Starport and you need to keep your third scan if you can't rule out Cloak since your Raven is complete at 7'45 at best (land Starport on the Tech Lab). Against many openings you will not be able to safely get a Medivac first for an immediate BFH drop.
Q. How do I hold off a 1/1/1 push off 1 base with a 1 rax CC into 1/1/1 build?
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TheDwf wrote:
Barracks → 3 or 4 Marines (depending on your gas timing) → Reactor
Factory → Tech Lab → Tank
Against gas first Marines/Hellions elevators you will have an awkward moment while your Tank is being produced, so move away your SCVs or have a Bunker at the likely drop location so he has to waste some time bypassing this defense.
As long as you start Siege as soon as possible and constantly produce Marines/Tanks/Vikings you should not have any problem defending 1-base Tank pushes unless he proxies a flying Barracks and the Factory and surprises you.
Q. Is there a build order that would give me a BO win versus a marine hellion drop?
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Ver wrote:I'm assuming you mean gas first elevator, but either way you can hold with rax cc double gas depot fact, reactor on rax, tech lab on fact, port. When he drops if you can't stop the elevator then you simply want to keep your forces away while you stall for tank/extra rines. Then you pull 6-8 scvs with your army and just kill his attack. I can't think of any relevant pro game off the top of my head but I've beaten ForGG doing this on close spawn Antiga so I'm positive it works. You can then follow up with a devastating 3 tank/viking/rine attack and siege his natural. You can also do rax cc rax x3 and stop the drop from fully unloading when he elevators but this is trickier ( Thorzain vs Polt, Shakuras, EIZO Open: Stockholm).
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/B24FnhS.png) Q. How to deal with doomdrops?
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TheDwf wrote:
In Marines/Tanks wars, your army is supposed to be on the map trying to get a better position than your opponent's army; most of the time it means both armies end up looking at each other, which means you should know his army size (thanks to Xel'Naga Towers and/or scans and/or a Medivac flying slightly forward protected by your sieged Tanks) and you should be able to know if suddenly 40+ supply is missing. Besides, you should patrol Marines at key locations so you see Medivacs heading towards your base; Sensor Towers fulfill a similar role.
With mech vs bio, it can be harder since usually you don't have map control, but Vikings with good positioning and Sensor Towers + Turret rings (gradually strengthened as the game goes on) should be enough to considerably weaken his drop; unless your opponent is at such a massive advantage that he can afford to trade 1:5 and still come out ahead, heavy Turrets rings should be enough to deter doom drops: yes, if he wants to commit with, say, 6 Medivacs, he will land some troops, but he should lose half of his Medivacs before they reach dry land making his drop a very costly move. Besides, mass Hellions can clear wounded bio without Medivac support quite easily if you line up his troops properly. Leaving 1-2 Tanks in your base/behind Turrets is an option too, especially on some maps (e. g. Entombed Valley's natural, Shakuras' main base) in which Marines/Marauders can hit your Turrets from the low ground.
Keeping track of the location/size of his army is also essential (you can use Hellions or scans for that). Make sure you lift your Barracks and place it on a common drop path.
Q. If I play Marine tank and run into a opponent who also goes 1rax expo but into mech, what do I do?
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TheDwf wrote:
Pure Marines/Tanks does not work well against mech, you have to get Marauders too. Pure bio is another option. Switches to Vikings/Banshees once you're on 3 bases are possible too; you build mass Vikings to overwhelm is Viking count so your Banshees have free reign, at least until he gets a Thor.
On January 06 2013 04:49 TheDwf wrote:Marauders are mandatory against mech if you want to play Marines/Tanks as pure Marines obviously get shredded by mass BFH/Tanks. Don't switch to mech, you can't and anyway you don't need to; you can keep playing biomech with 3 Factories (on 3 bases) so you muster enough Tanks to prevent him from advancing. Bank scans to negate the vision advantage Vikings provide and scan repeatedly so he can't slowly edge forward. Get a Thor so a single Banshee can't force your Tanks to unsiege and retreat. Use the map control you usually have by midgame to restrict his movements (you can even try to set up a hard contain, with Turrets and a Sensor Tower, if the opportunity arises and the map layout allows you to do so); ultimately, transition to air if the game reaches the Tank stalemate point. I suggest watching Polt's games, e. g. Polt vs Bomber @ IPL5 on Entombed Valley and Daybreak, or the Polt vs Bbyong series from their Code A match (RO24 2012 Season 5), to see the kind of maneuvers you can use when biomeching against mech. You can also check ByuN vs Ryung, Neo Planet S, Code S RO32.
Q. How winnable is bio vs. mech? Is it completely unwinabble for the bio player?
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Ver wrote:No idea how you came across that notion heh. Too much Artosis? ^_^ A lot depends on the maps, but bio and mech are definitely both winnable from either side. Personally, I find bio vs mech to be the most skill based and even game out of any Terran matchup, and the one I can consistently win at the most. Also note that bio is in general better in broadcasted games where nerves are higher, as mech requires closer to that 'perfect game' while bio is all about exploiting mistakes. Playing as either side really requires that you read the opponent's mentality correctly and are able to predict when and where he will make certain actions. If you let the mech player sit eventually they will have a very strong position that you can't break but if you can find weak points early on enough you can disrupt them so they never get that position and are always reacting to your initiative. Here is one example of my play vs Tarson's mech. This was a pretty simple game without much harassment because he turtled so hard, but that same turtling let me establish a very strong position quite quickly and I still won a head to head fight very handily. In general, pure bio into air is the best plan against mech, otherwise you just want to be going marine/tank if they are also going marine/tank. Pure bio does not do well vs marine/tank.
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Q. What do you look for with your first SCV scout, in terms of gas timings?
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Ver wrote:
You can really never know for sure if they are going speedling allin, speedling expo, ling/bane allin, roach timing, roach/ling allin, or roach/bane/ling. All you can really do note what is possible from the gas timing. i,e, if they get gas around when pool finishes, it will be something 7 mins +, while if they go gas pool, you have to account for a 1 or 0 queen 550 baneling bust or 630 40 ling runby. Another possibility, map dependent, is leave an scv in front of their ramp so you can have advance warning if units stream out.
Basically there is some degree of luck here as you can't be prepared against everything and bunker placements are not universal.
Q. Is building a bunker in the Zerg mineral line as their hatchery is building worth it?
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TheDwf wrote:
Not worth it with 1 rax FE, you will simply damage yourself more than him.
Q. Should I early worker scout when going 14 CC to rule out 6-pool?
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TheDwf wrote:That's simply wasted minerals most of the time. Besides, 6-pool doesn't even auto-win against CC first ( MarineKing vs Suhosin, Ohana, Code A 2012 Season 3). That being said, Flash sometimes use an early scout, either to be sure his opponent is not going 10 pool so he can build his CC directly on the natural ( Flash vs Life, MLG Fall Championship 2012, Antiga [starts at 17'20]) or to go for an early EB block ( Flash vs Revival, SPL, Ohana).
Q. If I scout and see no gas from zerg does that mean he can't do any aggression?
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TheDwf wrote:
Zergs can get dual gas after they take care of your scouting SCV, so scouting no gas does not mean he will not be agressive; it just means the fastest pushes are not possible.
Q. How do you defend early pools while 1 rax CC'ing?
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TheDwf wrote:
Against 10 pool you cancel your CC on low ground, wall and expand inbase. Against 14 pool using 6 Zerglings to pressure, pulling some SCVs to shield Marines should do.
Q. Is there any way to punish Zerg who goes 3 hatch before pool?
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TheDwf wrote:With CC first there is none. With 1 rax FE it depends whether you scouted it in time [3'10] or not; if yes you can keep producing Marines to attempt a Bunker rush on his third, otherwise if you already cut your second Marine your attack will be too weak, so you might as well go 1 rax double or even triple expand ( Classic vs EffOrt, Neo Bifrost, SPL STX vs CJ Entus; Taeja vs LosirA, Antiga, IPL TAC3 Grand Finals).
Q. Is it possible to hold 10 pool with CC first and late scouting (after rax)?
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TheDwf wrote:Yes if you build your CC and Barracks as part of the wall ( Flash vs Life, MLG Fall Championship 2012, Metropolis [starts at 51'40]. If scouting after Barracks means after you started your Barracks (2'45 - 2'50), your scouting SCV should come across the oncoming Zerglings, so you can quickly close your wall with a second Barracks (or a Depot) if you built your CC on lowground; obviously you will have to cancel this CC. See MarineKing vs RorO, Whirlwind, Code S RO32.
Q. When going for 11/11rax in TvZ on a 4-player map when should I send out my scouting worker to find their location?
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TheDwf wrote:
No, you have no minerals to spare going early scout. Scout one position with the SCV building the first Barracks (after the Barracks is complete, I mean), then another position with the SCV building the second Barracks (same), so by ~3'45 at worst you will know where Zerg is. Rally Marines to the middle of the map until you know his starting position.
Q. How many SCVs should I pull in a 11/11 attack?
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Ver wrote:
3 scvs for the normal semi-allin version (the 2 producing the rax, and 1 other), 5 scvs if you want to win or die there.
Q. On 11/11 proxy 2 rax versus Zerg:
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TheDwf wrote:The way you play 11/11 (against Zerg) depends on whether you want to all-in or pressure heavily. Naturally, the closer your Barracks are to his base, the more SCVs you pull, the more SCVs you cut (to start Bunkers earlier), the more you have to damage. Having your first 3 Marines surrounded is the thing you want to avoid as it stops dead your attack. They have to survive until Marines 4 and 5 join the party (after which you kill workers much faster); it means that you have to temporarily retreat if your opponent pulls 10+ workers while your reinforcing SCVs are still on the way. Whenever I play 11/11 with the intention to get a macro game I now build my first Bunker at the bottom of his natural's ramp. See SuperNova vs Snute, Ohana, Campus Party Europe; the Bunker at the bottom of the ramp supports your attack (preventing Zerglings/Drones from chasing your Marines too far) while containing the Zerg should you fail to complete a second Bunker in front of the Hatchery. Another example is MMA vs Stephano, Iron Squid II, Ohana. If you want to play macro behind a proxy (proxy ≠ forward; say it's proxy when your Barracks are around his Tower [Ohana, CK], forward when it's on your natural's ramp or slightly more advanced), you have to be more conservative with your Marines because you don't want to be in this awful spot in which you have to fly back both your Barracks without any Marines behind your wall. (If you don't want to all-in, be sure to build your Depots as part of the wall.) Knowing whether you're ahead or not can be difficult, yes, as it depends on many things: how many Drones you killed, how many SCVs you lost (beware, unintentionnally cutting SCVs because you're busy microing also really hurts), did you retain map control, are you able to build your expand directly on your natural, how many Spines did he make, how many Zerglings did you force, did he delay his first Queen, etc. Counting Drone kills can help; Zergs have 15-17 Drones (to 13 SCVs before OC is done) then usually go full Zerglings until your attack is stopped. Each completed Spine also counts as a Drone kill. If you don't see a Queen spawning at ~4'50-5'00 at the natural it also indicates that the Zerg is likely still at the Stone Age. You don't bring all SCVs but 2 when all-inning because you need a bit more to afford an additional Depot and constant Marine production. As far as I remember pulling 7 additional SCVs (+2 that built Barracks = 9 total) already makes it difficult to afford a second Supply Depot. See Polt vs Symbol @ the IEM Guangzhou Korean Qualifier, both games; Bogus/Innovation vs Stephano, Daybreak, Code S RO32 (7 SCVs pulled total, late second depot); ByuN vs Revival, Cloud Kingdom, Code A 2013 Season 1 (9 SCVs; compare with the Bel'shir Vestige game). SCV micro is a mixture of attacking, retreating and holding position to protect Marines. You have to use corners + SCVs to make sure your Marines are not going to be surrounded and killed.
Q. What's the difference between 11/11, 11/12 and 12/12?
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TheDwf wrote:
Agressivity aside (11/11 > 11/12 > 12/12), it's a matter of optimizing SCV movement depending on the Barracks' location. I send my 9th SCV to the ramp to make a Depot, which finishes around the 1'30 mark; so if I want to make my first Barracks just at the natural's ramp with the same SCV, I cannot have a 1'30 11 Barracks since my SCV has to go down the ramp and walk a bit further (and bringing back this SCV to mine while pulling another to build the first Barracks would waste some minerals). With this movement, I have at best a ~1'37 Barracks anyway, so I might as well start a 12th SCV right away since it does not delay the first Barracks. Thus I have 12/12 instead of 11/11.
On Ohana I make my second proxy Barracks with the SCV which builds the first Depot as part of the wall. But by the time he reaches the location just outside of his Tower's range, I sometimes pool 200 minerals, so I might as well start the 12th SCV after starting the first Barracks. Thus I have 11/12 instead of 11/11.
Q. Against the early speedling attack, is it only possible to hold it if you hold position your SCVs at the bunker?
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TheDwf wrote:
Your Bunker needs to be located in such a way it's not easily surrounded by Speedlings and yes, you need to surround said Bunker with your SCVs at the natural and you need to hit as many times as possible with your first 2 Hellions. Your goal is to kill as many Speedlings as possible; you will get overwhelmed anyway if he makes 30+ of them but the more Speedlings you kill, the easier it will be for you to take back your natural. Rally Hellions #3 and #4 inside your main, of course, and resume Marine production after Lab is complete so you can make a new Bunker to protect your natural while your Hellions/Banshees are on the map.
Q. How do you deal with 6+ Zerglings pressure after Hatchery first ?
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TheDwf wrote:
Just make a Bunker after second Supply Depot and you shall be fine against Zerglings poke with your 3 or 4 Marines in the Bunker, which starts around 4'15 and is ready when Zerglings arrive.
Q. How do you deal with 1-base Baneling Bust ?
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On December 30 2012 09:13 TheDwf wrote:Use this kind of wall. If you did not scout it in time and/or your position does not allow you to fully wall with 3 sturdy buildings, fortify behind the weak point(s) of your already existing wall (i. e. Depot(s)) using Bunker/Depot(s) and your CC + Factory. Hellions out of the Factory, Lab Starport to make Banshees behind, kill Zerg with Hellions/Banshees.
Q. I suffered some damage at my natural but survived a Baneling bust going Hellions/Banshees, what to do afterwards?
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KawaiiRice wrote:
If they busted your Nat but didn't bust your main, going up to 8-10 hellion and 2 banshees (rally a third) to attack is really strong against a third or infestor. You will need to get eBay and over turret if opp goes 2 base muta followup but that is rare and you should trade really well if they do this before mutas finish.
Q. Which opening is better to go mech, Hellions/Banshees or 2 Factories BFH?
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On November 13 2012 05:04 Ver wrote:
2 fact blue flame is only a legit build on cloud kingdom because on any other map the Zerg will scout it, make roaches and wall, and you auto lose (and you want to get a medivac, not a viking first, viking comes second. I know mvp does it the other way but his reasons are weird and dependent on him knowing exactly how his opponent will react).
[What to do if Zerg walls off] Well that's the problem with the build; if he reacts correctly you are so behind you basically you lose.
On September 08 2012 03:17 Ver wrote:
As someone who has used both extensively, the 2 fact blue flame build is a lot more one dimensional than the hellion/banshee 3 cc build. For one, your third cc comes a lot later, which puts you way behind unless you do extensive damage (which should not happen as Zerg scouts it, starts roaches, and walls the natural). I've had games where I've been way behind even though I kill two dozen drones in that window just because having a fast third is that important. If your third is later than 10-11 minutes and the Zerg goes standard 3rd timing (5-630 ish) and drones properly, you're already incredibly far behind. If you go 2 fact blue flame it's very possible for the Zerg to delay the landing of your 3rd cc for minutes with roaches unless you can do huge amounts of damage early, which is not a bet you want to take.
Secondly, hellion/banshee is a lot trickier to defend against than just mass hellions and gives you the potential to get large early leads if they mess up slightly. It also restricts creep a lot better, as hellions simply cannot handle roaches at all. Lastly, 2 fact has severe issues with early roach timings that players such as Violet like to do. Siege mode, even blindly started, comes way too late for the really fast ones, leaving you with just hellions to handle 10 roaches. TvZ is hard enough without getting blind coinflipped to death.
On November 13 2012 09:13 Ver wrote:
If in the GSL finals life did fast third/6 queen and ovie scouted every game Mvp wouldn't have won a single game, except maybe Abyssal (only because he didn't make broods). Mvp's 2 fact blue flame allin relied on Life not scouting and doing that speedling build. If Life makes 3rd/6 queens and ovie scouts, he sees the build and makes enough roaches to hold while getting full saturation and a huge midgame lead. That's why nobody does that 2 fact build very much anymore and also why Mvp used it almost every game.
On January 20 2013 06:39 TheDwf wrote:
You can't apply pressure with BFH against Roaches; and even if he's too lazy to sacrifice an Overlord and thus scout your 2 Factories build, a simple wall is all it takes to nullify any BFH pressure. Hellions/Banshees is better, you can adapt your follow-up depending on what you scout without committing to early BFH (which shows your hand too fast on top of other drawbacks) or Tanks.
On January 25 2013 22:33 TheDwf wrote:
[Why 2 Factories is less economical than Hellions/Banshees]: If you stick to the original plan you get your third later, because you make more Hellions and you're supposed to get a Starport in order to drop BFH should your attack be blocked. Even if you skip the Starport you can't have a 7'30 third with continuous Hellion production or Tanks + Siege. Mvp started his third at 9'00 against Life in their first game.
[After holding the BFH attack] Zerg can contain your third for a long time: even with Tanks, securing your third against 25-30 Speedroaches is really awkward before you have enough Tanks (especially on some maps), and that is a merciful answer; if Zerg feels like bashing you straight away he can go Roaches drops, and good luck defending this without any Banshee in advance.
TheDwf wrote:Comparative statement: click here. Games: - Mvp vs Vortix, Daybreak, IEM Cologne VII: Vortix easily blocks the attack despite Mvp tricking the Overlord scout;
- MarineKing vs Life, Abyssal City, IronSquid II: Life handles the attack, makes Roaches and deals game-ending damage with the Roach counter;
- Mvp vs Life, Code S Season 4 finals: some of the BFH attacks are successful yet it barely matters;
- Bogus vs HyuN, Bel'shir Vestige, Code S Season 5 RO4: shows how Zerg can make Drones faster than BFH kill them;
- Ryung vs Sniper, Bel'shir Vestige, Code S Season 5 RO4: a succesful instance;
- YoDa vs HyuN, Daybreak, Code S RO32: YoDa ends up in an awkward situation facing a Roach/Queen Nydus;
- Bogus vs Stephano, Cloud Kingdom, Code S RO32: Bogus goes for a 3 Factories BFH all-in, capitalizing on the map and the fact Stephano does not try to scout; Stephano underreacts and loses.
Q. How do I know if early roaches or early banes are coming?
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TheDwf wrote:
You can't know for sure, but if you went CC gas gas depot (or depot before dual gas) you don't care since you will not deviate from your build anyway (except you can get a fourth Marine as soon as possible if you have only 3).
Q. If I scout gas from the Zerg, does it mean he will attack me?
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TheDwf wrote:Gas doesn't necessarily mean agressive play, same as gasless doesn't necessarily mean passive play. Zergs can get Metabolic Boost early to defend / have some map presence / prevent you from building your third on its location, you see players like Leenock or Life do that even if they intend to get a third (e. g. Life vs Lucifron, GSL 2012 World Championship Round 2, Antiga). Your two first Hellions should scout whatever he's up to.
Q. Are 2 base marine/medivac or marine/medivac/hellion builds viable?
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Ver wrote:Short answer: No. Stop doing them. Stop asking about them unless you have definite proof that they can beat 6 queen 3 base builds that either counter or ling/bane flank the attack. Yes GSL players do them sometimes, but don't copy them here. Their only use is to win if the Zerg does 2 base all-ins, like ultra fast allin muta ling or speed roach allin. You also get an ok game vs eco 2 base infestor or muta, but worse than you would have with hellion/banshee, particularly vs infestor. Long Answer: They are abysmal against the normal Zerg build that has no real weaknesses. The only reason that Korean Terrans use them (and occasionally have seen success with) is due to the bizarre weakness of Korean Zergs to early timings at the moment. Korean Zergs rarely sacrifice an overlord to scout the main, which should be a given now, out of sheer greed and blindly assuming hellion/banshee. They also tend to be rather lazy with creep at the third base, such as Sniper vs Bogus on Whirlwind. Here's what happens if the Zerg plays correctly: Zerg sacs overlord between 645-715, sees Terran build. Makes sure to add baneling nest at 830-845~, then cuts drones at around 60-63~ to make ling/bane. When attack hits at 930-10 mins depending on version, the Zerg either a) has a ling/bane counter waiting at the Terran third and he busts the natural, killing huge amounts of scvs and possibly getting into the production area. Meanwhile the Terran has to push onto creep and micro in both spots at once, while hte zerg only has to set up the flank on creep. . The safer alternative is simply to have one premade group of lings out already setting up a flank, as Mystik did, with the reinforcements and morphing banes rallied to the queens (pull all 6). When the Terran runs on creep and attacks, he gets surrounded by ling/bane will smacked by invulnerable queens. Entire force dies, Zerg has full initiative and can win with a baneling bust while taking a 4th and teching to muta or infestor and hive and droning to 80. Earlier attacks are possible, such as Marineking vs Symbol on Daybreak from IPL5 Korean qualifier, but they will not involve medivacs and thus the entire army dies to the ling/bane surround. It's critical you have a zergling in front of their natural, especially if they take the watchtower, to note their moveout timing if you don't have the free overlord spot in case they go early. Three games to examine proper Zerg responses are: Sheth vs Polt (Daybreak, MLG Columbus 2012); Mystik vs Illusion (Daybreak; WCS USA, check MLG for vods); Suppy vs LG-IM.Happy (IPLTL, Daybreak).
Q. What's a good pure bio opening?
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Q. If I do a 12/14 2rax, when should I get my factory, my addons and my upgrades?
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TheDwf wrote:Factory as soon as you have 100 gas if you go for Reactor Hellion after expand(s). A common follow-up is double expand then Reactor Hellion + bio or 2 fact (one Lab + one Reactor or naked) BFH with Marines, with or without CS depending if you plan to go mech or Marine/Tanks or even Tank-free biomech, to force Roaches or Banes. See Mvp vs Miniraser, IronSquid II, Cloud Kingdom or Mvp vs sLivko, Cloud Kingdom, IEM Cologne VII for the BFH + Marines variant, or MarineKing vs GosWser (BFH, dual Armory, no Marines).
Q. Is non-committed 12/14 still viable?
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On December 24 2012 03:03 Ver wrote:
I don't think that 12/14 eco builds are particularly viable. MKP used to do this for a time pre-queen patch but Zerg will know its not 11/11 by the marine timing and scv count (unless you load scvs in your cc, which might work). I'd say if you want to fake a bunker rush you hide your rax at your 3rd or something and just do rax cc cc.
What can work is what bogus did against soulkey on entombed in gsl ro8, a 12/12 with only 2 scvs pulled. Soulkey underestimated it and didn't pull a ton of drones, so bogus was able to inflict huge casualties and basically auto win from damage dealt.
On December 26 2012 00:44 TheDwf wrote:
12/14 light pressure was severely weakened by the Queen patch. Before, it was guaranteed you could force a Spine and additional Zerglings if you retained your initial Marines and rallied reinforcements in front of his natural; nowadays, Queens can defend this kind of delayed Marine pressure on their own. Realistically on current maps 12/14 can't complete a Bunker in front of the Hatchery unless Zerg does not react, so you will end up with a later expand while not really hindering Zerg's development (Zerg is able to defend your pressure while still mining gas and going 2 Queens). You can always hope he overreacts with Zerglings but even then you won't achieve much.
If you want to use 2 rax pressure I suggest using 11/11 with 3 SCVs; you sacrifice more economy but since the pressure is much stronger, Zerg is forced to respect your Bunker rush attempt and proceed cautiously, forgoing gas (or sacrificing his natural) and often delaying the second Queen (if he goes 2 Queens you should be able to complete a Bunker in front of the Hatchery) on top of forcing Spine(s) and Zerglings.
Q. Build order for reactor hellion into banshee harass?
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TheDwf wrote:
Out of a 1 rax expand, this is the one I use:
12 Barracks
15 OC
16 Marine
16 CC
17 SCV
17 Refinery
17 Refinery
17 Supply Depot
18 SCV
19 Marine
20 SCV
21 Marine
21 Bunker
22 Factory
22 Reactor on Barracks
22 OC on natural
23 SCV
24 SCV
25 SCV
25 Starport
26 SCV
30 Hellion x2 (5'45)
31 SCV
32 SCV
32 Tech Lab on Barracks
32 Supply Depot x2
33 SCV
34 SCV
38 Hellion x2
39 SCV
40 SCV
40 Cloak (6'40) (optional)
40 Banshee
Supply counts and timings are slightly off if you SCV scout. Getting second depot before dual gas is more economical and allows you to get a fourth Marine but delays a bit first Hellions.
Q. What are the specific timings for a 3 rax hellion push with a third and double upgrades as a follow up?
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TheDwf wrote:Basically you get your third + double EB + gases at natural when you move out (if it's a Stim timing, CS timings hit earlier), around 9'30 – 9'45. Mvp vs sLivko, IEM Cologne VII, Antiga (also shows what's wrong with this kind of build).
Q. What is the best way to transition out of Hellion/Banshee into Marine/tank?
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Ver wrote:
There are two main versions to transitioning out of it, and it will also depend on which build you did to get there. In general, the version I feel is best is:
After banshees/3rd cc/ double ebay/stim
1 gas at nat
fact lifts off, makes another reactor. 4 rax, including one on the open reactor, then 4th gas.
Starport and Fact swap. 5th and 6th gases, armory when needed.
3 more raxes and 1 more fact when money comes in. If muta 2 more facts.
Alternatively some people start on tanks right away instead of a second reactor, but this makes you more turtlish and lets them spread more creep.
Q. What is a good 1 rax FE into mech build order?
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Ver wrote:
The most popular mech build is the one Supernova, Kas, and MVP use, which is:
Rax CC -> Reactor Hellion -> Cloak Banshee -> CC -> Fact 2x -> Armory 2x
You have a lot of potential damage from hellion/banshee, you are safe vs allins, and the banshees are very useful in the midgame to stop the Zerg from bullying you around with roaches. The only downside is your upgrades are very late and if they scout and defend correctly you end up behind. If you see very early mass roach, you can get siege mode first, if not get blue flame.
Personally I have always preferred getting an ultra fast armory after the factory finishes to rush +3 attack, thus delaying cloak (or not getting it), with the build otherwise similar.
If you are okay stretching your multitasking then I would recommend making a Medivac and viking after the 2nd or 3rd banshee and attempting hellion drops as well.
Q. When doing banshee hellion into mech, when should I be suiciding hellions for drones and how many do I need to get to be effective?
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TheDwf wrote:
Personally I always runby my first 4 or 6 Hellions if his Queens are out of position (not only for Drones kills, but also for information) and/or he has no wall; obviously you retreat if you see lots of Zerglings. During the game, it depends; you can mostly kill Drones when his army is out of position, otherwise they just die for nothing. It also depends on your opponent's creep spread and the map layout since you'll obviously get more kills if you surprise him.
Constantly suiciding Hellions for Drones looks like a good trade but things are actually more subtle. Whenever you lose Hellions during midgame, you weaken and/or delay your pre-Hive tech push; meanwhile, your opponent just replenishes his Drone count right away and voilà, you didn't necessarily gain something valuable... Hence those infuriating games in which you can kill 100+ Drones and still lose. By lategame, yes, you can dispose of Hellions with far more munificence but now I am a lot more conservative with my Hellions during mid-game.
Q. How to deal with 2-bases Lair Roach agression such as 1/1 Speedroaches timing?
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TheDwf wrote:Read this post (second part, answer to SHODAN).
On January 19 2013 11:24 TheDwf wrote:This was written in a mech perspective but the general idea still stands: you can hold Roach agression after Hellions/Banshee(s) but you must adapt both your Hellion/Banshee count and your follow-up: against Roach agression you can't indulge in going third CC → dual EB → extra Barracks. For instance going 6 Hellions and 1 Banshee you can try the following: Make 6 Hellions → lift Factory and land on Tech Lab → Siege Mode and Tank production.
Lift Starport after first Banshee (no Cloak) → make Reactor.
Tech Lab on the naked Barracks → Stim.
Third Command Center.
Build 2 Barracks, one on the free Reactor, the other one near the Starport making Reactor (swap once done).
Third Refinery.
Build 2 Bunkers behind your wall (aim at having them ready by 9'30 - 10').
Hide Hellions on the map, leave Banshee on the way.
Zerg moves out → run Hellions in his base to kill Drones, prepare SCVs near Bunkers at home. 100% confident you can hold with 2 full Bunkers + 1-2 sieged Tanks behind your wall since I saw a barcode Terran holding Stephano's 1/1 Speedroaches timing on Kr ladder with this; can't tell for sure the build order he used but he did hide his Hellions, raided shortly after Stephano moved out, had 2 Bunkers behind his wall and sieged Tanks ready, and he held comfortably not even repairing. The timing of your EBs depends on his variation; against 1/1 Speedroaches you can probably squeeze in one EB (you get the other one later), against Roaches + Nydus doing so would be inadvisable. You will be behind in upgrades against Roaches/Hydralisks but it does not matter since you can turtle longer (Hive tech is delayed/weakened) and thus wait 2/2 and/or more Tanks/Marauders to move out. Watch GuMiho vs Sniper, Neo Planet S, Code S RO32 (sloppy hold: only one Bunker, and Tank misplaced too close on the high ground); Mvp vs rorO, Neo Planet S, Code S RO32 (some mistakes too); Taeja vs Nestea, Icarus, Code S RO32; Flash vs EffOrt, Ohana, SPL KT Rolster vs CJ Entus.
Q. What is currently best; bio play or mech play?
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Ver wrote:
I think bio is better TvZ for several reasons, though mech is playable. Bio simply stretches the Zerg a lot more and lets you outplay them. Mech really doesn't challenge the Zerg much at all: they have an easy hand and aren't disrupted. Bio also has a small hope of a lategame, whereas with mech you are pretty much screwed if they get broodlords and you don't have an obscene economy. In addition, Bio has small margin of error but mech has none. You don't really get second chances with mech. I personally would mech on certain maps (Shakuras, Cloud Kingdom, Daybreak) up until a few months ago, when I had a pair of rather traumatic mech games at MLG Anaheim where I killed 80+ drones against Fuzzy and 111 versus Sheth and still lost anyway because they got to broodlords before I could kill them.
The one plus side of mech, at least for lower levels, is that it requires much less micro than bio to be very effective. For players that struggle with banelings and fungal mech can definitely boost your performance considerably.
Q. Is sky+mech viable on two bases?
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Ver wrote:Nope  If you mean banshees + mech, then just do the normal triple cc build that Flash does all the time. You can see it a lot in MvP. You should never be doing 2 base builds TvZ in general. You can't actually add ravens/BCs to your army until you have at minimum 4 if not 5 base income because they are so slow and expensive.
Q. For TvZ I usually open eco two rax or hellion banshee into marine tank. whats the ideal production for 2 base going marine tank? how about three base?
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TheDwf wrote:
On three bases, head for 7-8 Barracks + 2-3 Factories + 1 Reactor Starport.
Q. How do you learn to micro large scale engagements well?/How do you set up the attack, how do you micro DURING the attack, then how do you practice it until you are good?
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Ver wrote:
I think they are two key ingredients . Aggressive movement attention/commands goes something like this:
1) Load up send out a drop, waypointed to arrive at around hte time your attack will hit the target area (usually the 4th).
2) Attack move the army to the area, macro a round of units
3) Stim a handful of marine/marauder ahead of the rest of your army, generally around 6 or so units.
4) As you are walking forward into a potential danger area, start pre splitting parts of your army to the left and right then attack moving back to the target, while keeping your advance guard ahead.
5) Once you get to creep scan ahead and have your screen force pick it off. Remember the Zerg can't see where your army actually is, so for all he knows, your screen is right in front of the rest of it.
6) Once you see the location of the Zerg's army, start pre splitting your army a lot more and begin spreading and sieging your tanks, depending on when you think he will attack, and make sure to produce another round of units if the timer is almost up.
7) Once the Zerg attacks, stim, do whatever immediate declumping you need to in order to avoid massive fungals. Then target fire banelings and infestors with tanks while pulling some of your bio back and trying to form a concave over their area of attack. Retarget fire with tanks as needed. When all your bio is spread out enough, then attack move towards his army and focus on spreading individual parts.
A key ingredient of this is watching pro games very closelessly for micro, preferably streams/fpview or the first person in replays, then practicing it in an isolated setting (micro trainers). For an example of the seeing, my TvZ push micro actually improved a lot after two weeks of playing as Zerg only, because I felt what was annoying to play against and what was easy, and so when I went back to Terran, [TheDwf: incomplete sentence; Ver probably meant that he knew better what to do from the Terran side].
Q. Any advice on tackling a ling/Infestor composition?
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Ver wrote:If you are 100% sure your opponent will go ling infestor you can do MVPDream's blueflame/bio (with heavy marauder emphasis) which simply shreds it. Look at his games vs Golden and Sleep from GESL and other Zergs in Spring Arena. In general ling/infestor has severe issues with a screen of 6-8 marine/marauder in front of your army, and cannot handle large numbers of medivacs whatsoever. You can push a lot faster against pure ling/infestor than other comps if you are diligent about stimming a small number ahead and pre spreading behind. Lastly if you do go tanks, make sure to target fire infestors in every battle. See Flash vs Soulkey on Antiga from the KESPA Invitational at MLG Anaheim for a strong example of this.
Q. If I'm going mech, should I be using vikings or thors to deal with broodlord/corrupter early on?
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Ver wrote:It's pretty much impossible to beat infestor/bl/corruptor without vikings unless they do not have overseers and you can cloak ghosts and emp/snipe their infestors (with bio naturally). Thors are generally rather bad unless they clump up, which does happen a lot with corruptors, but having 1 or 2 is nice to help vikings kite by providing a threat to chasing corruptors. MVP and Supernova's mech games vs Vortix are really good demonstrations of how to fight mech vs low-medium infestor - brood counts. In general vs broodlords the only reason you want ground units is to kill their infestor/queen support and maybe land a couple thor volleys on clumped corruptors. You can't really beat critical max infestor/bl/corruptor/queen with anything but viking/raven; ground units just die. Go watch MVP's IEM replays, especially vs Vortix on Ohana and vs Nerchio on Cloud Kingdom. He just knows when they will transition to BL's, and whether he has a timing or not. If he has no timing to hit pre-brood, he will immediately add more ports and make raven/viking. You can't rely on a 'spot unit' reaction again Zerg. You just have to know, because air transition has ungodly long prep time.
Q. Are Ravens good to use late game TvZ?
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TheDwf wrote:Ravens are far from stellar but they're mandatory against high BLs/Corruptors/(Queens)/Infests counts; Vikings alone can't do the job, see Bboong vs jjakji, GSL 2012 Code A Season 5 RO48, Cloud Kingdom; and Taeja vs Leenock, GSL 2012 Code S Season 4 RO8, Cloud Kingdom.
On January 13 2013 11:10 TheDwf wrote:
Ravens are mediocre but needed as PDDs mitigate any non-Infestor related damage (blocking attacks from Queens and Corruptors) while Missiles add good firepower against the Corruptor wall, and even more importantly this “extra damage” is instant and occurs at the very beginning of the fight (so things snowball: some Corruptors fall faster = less Corruptors attacking = less Vikings dying = more Vikings firing = more Corruptors dying, etc.); even if Zerg splits his Corruptors he will take hundreds of damage from several Missiles. Besides, with Ravens you can severely punish Zerg's positioning/micro mistakes.
Regarding the Fungal lock issue I spread my Ravens in a huge concave; ideally you want them pre-positioned in such a way that he can't hit more than one Raven per Fungal once you charge in an arc, therefore preventing him from blocking all your Ravens since he can't hit X Fungals over 2-3 screens in a split second. Naturally this optimum is hardly reachable but you see the point; you want to avoid at all costs the awful situation in which your whole Raven fleet gets repeatedly stuck out of range by chain Fungals.
Personally as long as I have time I'm not afraid to get as many Ravens as I can, so I end up with 10-15 of them sometimes [note: I was talking about mech here]; I feel 6-8 are the minimum to get a decent damage boost.
Q. How do you stop Infestor/Brood lord? Do ghosts still work?
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On October 01 2012 15:03 Ver wrote:Honestly nobody has created a reliable method yet: every one relies on the Zerg making mistakes. The ideal way is to have so much initiative that you can keep forcing trades/killing bases and never let them get critical mass. See Taeja vs Revival on Entombed, MLG Raleigh, for an example. [TheDwf: Flash vs Revival, SPL, Ohana is another good example.] There are three general theories. The first is to try and evade the BL army as long as possible by harassment and dispersing your forces. However, this approach depends on the Zerg being unable to spread creep/overlords/spores effectively to see your strikes coming. If those prerequisites are not in place, you can really throw them off balance. Once they are off balance, you can keep up the pressure. This style has declined in popularity drastically as Zergs have gotten better at handling it, but it is still possible. See Dream vs Sleep, Antiga, GESL; MMA vs Stephano, IPL4, Cloud Kingdom (pre-patch though); Taeja vs Nestea, IPLTAC finals. Nestea moves out, Taeja runs in and sacks bases. The more modern take on this is to combine the above with #3 below to force the Zerg to stay at home for a prolonged period due a threat of counterdrops, while building up a large raven/viking and later battlecruiser force at home. See Mvp vs Slivko, Metropolis and MVP vs Nestea, from IEM Cologne VII. The second is to try and bait them into an open area and get a massive surround with bio/thor/tank. Theoretically if they don't have critical mass you can engage in such a way that they can't fungal fast enough (due to being across multiple screens) and thus are unable to prevent you from getting in range. This however only works before 11-12 broods + support, at which point all your ground dies. Examples: Polt vs DRG, Entombed Valley, MLG Arena, Marineking/Golden, Metropolis, MLG Anaheim. The last is to turtle and rush raven/vikings, with the aim of eventually getting battlecruisers. Seeker Missile does not actually hit the broods if the Zerg is good due to range difference; however, it can kill the corruptors. PDD is also extremely useful in keeping vikings alive. The key is being able to engage at a planetary or an area where they can't kill your tanks easily. Ttanks/pfs are crucial for engaging bl blobs because you can snipe queens/infestors and help clean up infested terran/broodlings; the former especially will wreck you so easily.
TheDwf wrote:
Don't bother with mass Ghosts anymore. Counters depend on how much gas he's able to sink into this army.
- Low Infestors/BLs count (basically when he gets his first BLs or you've crippled him enough by repeatedly killing his fourth and/or fifth): Marines/Medivacs/Tanks/(Thors)/Vikings (or Tanks/Thors/Vikings for mech) can still work to some extent with a good concave.
- Medium count (if he manages to stabilize on at least 8 gases): Ravens become mandatory as the efficiency of any ground unit starts to dramatically decrease (the more BLs he has, the more Marines and Thors become useless).
- High count (if he's maxed on BLs/Corruptors/Infestors with 10 or 12 gases): ideally you want your own fleet of Battlecruisers/Vikings/Ravens, or at least a sizeable Vikings/Ravens fleet.
Some Ghosts are an option but beware, they're really expensive.
Q. Is a ghost transition in TvZ good or bad?
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On November 08 2012 15:04 Ver wrote:
For a long time after snipe nerf I kept trying to rely on ghosts instead of vikings to beat hive tech because vikings obviously are a terrible unit against it. However, it was more of a gimmick than anything else due to the prohibitive cost. 3-4 base ghosts means you can't get viking raven. The only way you can beat bl/infestor without viking/raven is by sniping or emping every infestor then getting a big envelopment with marines. Unfortunately, this can be prevented simply by making 1-2 overseers or even just fungaling your ghosts if they are paying attention. Nuke harass is absolutely amazing and is so worth incorporating in, it's just, how do you avoid automatically dying to the 10-12 brood + infestor push that is almost impossible to survive against with viking/initial ravens anyway. I think if you have a really strong midgame initiative it might be possible to go ghosts first because theoretically you can keep him from attacking by nonstop nuking, giving you room to outmaneuver him and try to nail his infestors, but it feels too easy for Zerg to just spam overseers/spores to stop it once you get your initial few nukes off. But if you are behind, ghosts are impossible (then again if you're behind you're usually dead anyway).
However, ghosts are probably the optimal choice against ling/infestor/ultra armies. Gumiho's game vs b4 on daybreak from this season's code A is a good example of this. When they go ultras they have nothing to keep your ghosts out of infestor range, or even stop you from dropping ghosts on top like he did. And ultra/ling is pretty bad if it has no fungal/IT support. This also lets you reduce the number of tanks, which are actually very poor versus ultras, and focus more on thor/bio.
On October 31 2012 03:55 Ver wrote:Ghosts are stupidly expensive and are rendered mostly useless if they make a single overseer. They are quite awesome against infestor ultra ling armies but if they go broods then they can't get close enough to emp/snipe infestors due to brood range + fungal + infesteds. Keen vs jonnyrecco from tsl4 on daybreak is a good example of this. the zerg has 20-30 supply locked in corruptors and is down multiple bases and lost all his tech yet it doesn't matter.
TheDwf wrote:
Nuke harass is a good option, problem is that you're usually trying not to die to the first BL push so you don't have enough time or resources to invest in Ghosts. You need to deal a certain amount of damage with your pre-BL timing (and/or your maneuvers afterwards if the map/creep allows you to do so) so you have time to set up your Ghost follow-up; if you're at a disadvantage you will not be able to defend his push on your fourth and your weakened army (because of the massive investment) will certainly not stand his.
On January 12 2013 00:43 TheDwf wrote:
Assuming you have time/resources to tech them Ghosts are more useful for Nuke harass than for EMP in direct confrontations because of Overseers + BLs preventing them from reaching Infestors. To hit EMPs you would generally need to flank with your Ghost squad but it's not always possible (no time to prepare said flank, or you're already cornered, etc.), not to mention the Infestor size issue, so Ghosts are mostly unreliable to deal directly with Infestors if BLs are nearby.
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Q. How do you deal with proxy Gateways?
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TheDwf wrote:
Against 2 Gateways in my base, I use 11/11 and I build my Barracks between my CC and geysers; against a single Gateway, 12/14 should be enough. Regardless of your building layout you will have to micro anyway, so pull back SCVs after they take 2 hits and remember that a Marine cannot take any hit from a Zealot if you move it manually with caution.
Proxies outside your base are simply thwarted by a wall.
Q. What should I look for when scouting protoss in the early game?
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TheDwf wrote:
When scouting a Protoss you want to look at the following things:
- Energy on Nexus.
- Number of gases (and look how much gas he mined to know if he took them at the standard timings) + how many Probes are mining.
- Number of Pylons (should be 3 shortly before your SCV has to leave).
- Pylon placement (Pylons in the corner should make you suspicious).
- His first units.
Q. How can I find out blink stalkers are coming rather then say dt's or something?
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TheDwf wrote:
Usually signs are:
- Dual gas
- 3 Pylons in his base, usually with one of them being able to power buildings in a hidden or semi-hidden corner of the base
- No early expand
- You saw only Stalkers (sometimes they build a Zealot, but usually they don't; sure thing is they don't get a Sentry)
- One Stalker stays in front of his natural to deny further scouting
- No early proxy around your base (though sometimes the Robotics is proxied...).
The map can be a big indication too, Protoss players sure love their Blink Stalkers all-ins on Antiga.
If you're unsure, have a scan ready around 7'15 - 7'30, this is when DTs show up. This way, if it happens to be Blink Stalkers, you can try to snipe the Observer if the Protoss player is careless.
Q. How do I best deal with 1base openings like 4gate robo warp prism or 4 gate blink stalker?
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Ver wrote:1 base allins can be divided into 1 gas and 2 gas, which is something you can see. Of course they can wait to chase your scv out with a stalker and then plant a 2nd gas but that will delay the allin and make it easier to hold regardless. The list is quite vast and it's pretty close to impossible to be 100% prepared against every one on most maps, making it possible for much worse Protoss players to blind coinflip even the best, though their winrate will be very low. Off the top of my head with vods for how to stop it -> 1 gas- 4 gate (620) -> make more than 1 bunker, bring scvs to nat to mass repair 4 gate warp prism (625-640) -> noblesse vs arcanne, terminus, iron squid regionals 3 gate void w/ zealots -> MMA vs HongUn, entombed/antiga, recent gsl. 2 gas- blink obs (745-815~) -> discussed earlier. drewbie vs ddoro, daybreak, NA invite only qualifiers for winter arena. dt (715) -> turret or save scan Delayed 4 gate (can happen anytime with more sentries) dt warp prism (dts slightly later, warp prism a min later) -> WhiteRa vs me, dual sight, mlg orlando Immortal (8-9, not sure exactly) -> MarineKing vs Parting, Dual Sight, MLG Arena (not an allin variant, but shows the best way to handle it) Colo (9-930, not sure exactly) Warp prism ramp block (830~) -> wbc vs puma, shakuras, mlg raleigh 2011
Q. When to add engineering bay, if 1gate expo is scouted?
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TheDwf wrote:
Generally shortly after Factory.
Q. What are the best cheeses at the moment?
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Ver wrote:
hm, gas first hellion/marauder
proxy fact port hellion drop
proxy marauder
proxy 11/11
I think the 1 base cloak into thor/banshee 2 base attack is a bit underused as a surprise build.
Q. On 11/11 2 rax against Protoss:
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TheDwf wrote:( First, see the blurb about 11/11 against Zerg.) Against Protoss you don't have to ask yourself those questions as you're essentially forced into proxy 11/11 with several additional SCVs pulled because of Stalkers reigning supreme against Marines / walls not protecting you / Warpgate easily killing you should you fail. I play them the way Mvp did against Squirtle, with Supply Call first (you don't build your first Depot as part of the wall to save minerals) instead of MULE first: since you have to pull many SCVs and you have to start your Bunker near his ramp as soon as possible you don't have enough minerals to start a second Depot (or if you do, I feel it weakens your attack too much as it delays your first Bunker; still, Lucifron does them this way. See also MarineKing vs MC, Daybreak, IronSquid II; and Flash vs Naniwa, TDA, MLG Fall. Both were build order wins but they were going the second Depot variant anyway.). Against Protoss macro games out of proxy 11/11 may happen but they're more of an accident, you basically start with the intention to kill him with the attack yet sometimes you will be allowed/forced to transition if (a) you killed enough Probes, (b) couldn't go on with your attack for some reason (mainly because of Stalkers preventing you from advancing because you didn't succeed in completing a Bunker) but (c) you managed to retreat some Marines at home to get a Bunker up. I did have 2 macro games out of the 20, 25 or 30 (don't know the exact amount) games in which I played 11/11 against Protoss last season, so it's possible but unlike vs Zerg you can't really plan it to be this way from the start of the game, as said above it's a “OK, time for the back-up plan” thing. Proxy 11/11 is not really reliable against Protoss because (a) some Protoss 9-scout and (b) some don't scout but get 2 Zealots before Stalker, and dealing with an early Zealot is horrible, whether he heads towards your undefended base (no wall) or stay around to scout/defend. Besides, the distance is shorter for workers to defend since you start the first Bunker in his main, and when out Stalkers get free shots thanks to shields / superior range / superior movement speed, so it's mostly a race against the clock to get a Bunker in range of the Nexus. Other than that, 11/11 is also what I do (inbase) whenever a Protoss goes 10/10 in my base.
Q. Is 2rax viable anymore, and if so what kind?
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Ver wrote:
The only 2 rax used anymore is the reactor tech lab, usually conc shells, once in awhile stim. Certain Terrans (polt/mkp) love to 2 rax on Taldarim to hopefully coinflip greedy Protosses who get unlucky with scouting (or just scout late). Mana also just lost to a 2 rax in gsl I believe.
In general it's not very good, loses to a lot of builds outright, but beats a few builds outright. If you want to use it once in awhile, sure, but as a standard go to build, not viable.
TheDwf wrote:For the Tech Lab + naked variant, you can check YoDa vs Socke, Entombed Valley, IEM Katowice and Bomber vs HerO, Bel'shir Vestige, Ups & Downs.
Q. How many bunkers do I need to hold a 4 gate with 1 rax fe?
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TheDwf wrote:
Most 4 gates don't even come with Sentries, 2-3 Bunkers with SCVs ready is enough.
Q. Are 3CC builds unsafe?
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Ver wrote:
No triple orbital builds are safe in general, especially on ramped maps (not Ohana though). You can hold coinflips but it may require overcommitment. The main danger to triple orbital builds is actually triple nexus openings, including the Parting build, because his econ will be so much larger than yours.
Q. What is the best build order to hold off any kind of cheese?
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TheDwf wrote:
Good scouting and proper reactions are the best ways to hold off cheeses; 1 rax FE (or CC first) gives you the advantage of an early boost in your economy so the game is automatically yours should you defend convincingly his cheese.
To scout proxies against 2 gas openings check how many Pylons there are in his base. There should be 3 around the 4' mark; if you don't see 3 Pylons it's worth searching in the vicinity of your base to see if there is something. If you see a proxy Stargate or Robotics early you can kill the Pylon with your first Marines while preparing 1 or 2 extra Barracks at home.
Q. If I 1 rax FE into 3 rax, how to hold Blink Stalkers all-ins?
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TheDwf wrote:
Against Blink Stalkers all-ins I never have troubles when scouting it early. Signs are:
- 2 gas;
- 3 Pylons in his base (and thus no proxy) with one of them being able to fuel a building in the back of his base (outside of common scan areas);
- A favorable map (e. g. Daybreak and Entombed Valley are impractical due to the map layout);
- No Zealot, no Sentries (some builds can get a Zealot, but no Sentry is sure);
- One or two Stalkers camping in front of his natural to dispose of your scouting SCV;
- No scout or 9 scout from him are also a possible sign (he doesn't scout because he doesn't care since he wants to blindly all-in, or he wants to make sure you go 1 rax FE).
With my first 50 gas I make 2 Tech Labs, then I continuously make Marauders and search Concussive (first) and Stim (second). When Protoss makes his first Blink in my base (7'15 - 7'30) I have enough to fend him off without pulling any SCV, then I defend while teching to Medivacs. Be sure you never get supply blocked and pay attention to the location of your Tech Lab searching Stim, you don't want it to be cancelled. Common follow-ups when Protoss fails are: Protoss tries harder; Dark shrine; expand, so be wary about this.
Q. What do I do after defending a DT expand with slight losses?
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Ver wrote:Try to punish them! DT's cost a lot of gas and many Protoss will try to play greedy after anyway. I think turtling is the wrong option: dts leave the Protoss very weak if it fails. See Marineking vs Huk on Antiga Shipyard, during the Winter Arena
Q. How to hold proxy robo immortal all in with 1 rax fe?
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TheDwf wrote:
Ideal scenario: kill the proxy with your first Marines. Proxy Robotics should start around 4'10 so he needs to make his third Pylon by 3'45 somewhere near your main; hopefully by this point you saw dual gas with your scouting SCV, which should immediately trigger a safety search around your base with your first Marines and/or a SCV (e. g. search at your third then your fourth on Ohana with the first one, and send the second Marine or a SCV around your fifth).
Upon scouting the proxy, rally all Marines and 1-2 SCV(s), attack the Pylon and start a Bunker nearby. Generally Protoss has only 1 Stalker and 2 Sentries before he starts his first Immortal at ~5'15, so you should be able to cancel/delay the proxy with your first Marines.
Bad luck: even though I don't have much trouble holding natural with several Bunkers, I think it's actually not really worth trying it because you won't be able to use the extra mineral line there anyway; SCVs have to be ready near the Bunkers, so they don't mine, and if you don't mine from your second mineral line then you actually have no advantage staying on your natural so why not have the superior security of a narrower ramp?
Besides, being on your natural really puts you in an awkward spot against the simple, unscoutable threat of a Prism drop/elevator; you have no way to know if he is making this Warp Prism, but if he does and you have everything on your natural you will lose to 4 Sentries landing in your main and repeatedly blocking your ramp while Prism warps Zealots. And if you do leave troops in your main to parry that threat, the front is weaker (possibly for nothing) and he can thus force his way more easily through your defense. Retreating to your main relieves you from blindly choosing between those different scenario without any possible intel; sure, you will have to lift your Barracks and you will lose two Depots if you walled, but the ramp allows you to defend more easily and thus tech faster to Medivacs than you would if you tried to hold your natural (since you need less Bunkers and less SCVs to repair). This way you're also in a better spot than overdefending and realizing your opponent never had any intention to commit and was simply scaring you while going 3gR expand.
If you want to hold your natural [assuming a favorable map, forget about it on maps with backdoor rocks such as Entombed Valley or Ohana]: yes, you have to slow down your teching; usually I get 1-2 extra Barracks while removing 2-4 SCVs from Refineries, progressively resuming normal gas income depending on how things go. Your Bunkers should be in a concave so most of them can target Sentries, especially the one casting Guardian Shield (your arch-enemy).
Q. Is a 3 rax before expo pressure considered all-in?
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TheDwf wrote:
It's not all-in, but like many pressure builds the game will often come down to whatever happened with your pressure move. You should move out at 5'20 with 10 Marines; pull 2 SCVs for standard pressure (to attempt to Bunker his expand), more if you want to commit. Your expand should be made around this time too, between 5'20 and 5'45. You will be able to kill the Nexus if the Protoss didn't play safe enough, i. e. Nexus before Core, or Robo before Gates #2 & #3, or too many Chronoboosts on Probes and not on Warpgate, etc., or alternatively if he went Sentries as his first units. If he goes Zealot Stalker Stalker with enough Chronoboosts to have a 3 Stalkers warp-in ready when you reach his natural, you will be thwarted. I play 3 rax expand a lot so if you're interested in more details (follow-ups, common threats, etc.), I can provide them.
Q. How do you feel about a 1rax FE into cloaked Banshees, with defensive tanks to secure a quick 3rd?
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TheDwf wrote:It's good. Be sure to get a second rax before teching or you will auto-lose to any Gateway pressure while teching Banshees (staying on one Barracks is doable, but this is risky). Upgrades are not really delayed since you can afford dual EB while building extra rax. Get a Raven to deny Observers, that way the Protoss player will be more careful since he won't be sure for a while if you transition to macro or go 2-bases all-in. See SuperNova vs MC, Cloud Kingdom, IEM Gamescom; and the Daybreak game too (no Tanks in this one though).
Q. Is Marauder/Hellion actually a viable unit composition in the early game?
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TheDwf wrote:Hellion/Marauder is a pressure opening (there are all-ins variations though, especially against Nexus first), you can find a guide here. Usually this kind of pressure build is used in a BoX series because Protoss cannot know for sure what you're up to upon scouting you went 13 gas. See MMA vs Hasu, Shakuras, IEM Kiev.
On September 06 2012 06:31 Ver wrote:
Yeah it only works in small numbers as a way to coinflip greedy expansion builds because of how fast hellions reinforce.
Q. Is 4 rax Marine pressure after 1 rax FE viable?
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TheDwf wrote:It's viable but its efficiency depends to some extent on maps, spawns (distance, do you have to show your Marines or can you bypass Tower sight, width of the ramp, etc.) and of course your opponent's build. Your goal is to force warp-ins rounds the Protoss player would have perhaps skipped otherwise to tech faster. Try to kill Sentries so he has to waste gas to remake them. This Marine push can deal decent damage if Protoss played too unsafe / teched too fast; see Mvp vs sOs, Entombed Valley, Code A Season 5. 4 rax follow-up is also good if you scouted 2 gas and suspect a proxy.
Q. Are there any decent 2-base all-ins?
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TheDwf wrote:- Marines/Marauders/Tanks/Medivacs (generally after 1 rax FE → Cloak Banshee harass): see ByuN vs PartinG, Akilon Flats, Code S RO32. See also SuperNova vs ReaL, Ohana, IEM Cologne VII; SuperNova vs Hasu, Ohana, IEM Cologne VII; Naama vs HuK [starts at 1'01'14], Entombed Valley, ASUS ROG Summer 2012; Center vs Seed, Akilon Flats, Code A 2013 Season 1.
Another possible composition is Marines/Tanks/Banshees; in both cases you get bio upgrades. See Flash vs Argo, Entombed Valley, SPL KT Rolster vs Team 8; Beastyqt vs Crank, Ohana, Quantic/CSN Allstars #7.
- Marines/Thors/Banshees/Raven builds à la Jjakji: see Jjakji vs MaNa, Daybreak, IronSquid.
- The most common option is to go standard 1 rax FE → 3 rax Medivacs → 5 rax, possibly with a second Starport, and just pull SCVs at some point like Bomber/Mvp frequently do: see Mvp vs Feast, Entombed Valley, IEM Cologne VII; Mvp vs Rain, Cloud Kingdom, Code S Season 4; Mvp vs Flying, Code A 2012 Season 5, Cloud Kingdom (no SCVs on this one); YoDa vs Tear, Icarus, Code A 2013 Season 1; Center vs Seed, Icarus, Code A 2013 Season 1. For this one you need to deny Observers/units on the map so Protoss doesn't know that you didn't take your third, and you must hit at the right timing; hitting only some seconds too late can be fatal (e. g. Mvp vs sOs, Code A 2012 Season 5, Daybreak).
On November 22 2012 19:35 KawaiiRice wrote:
The scv pull is going for the timing where P's are cutting gas units (stalker/colo) to get HT. It's not necessarily protoss greed.
The scv pull lets them get several more volleys of viking shots on the colossus before bio units start getting killed. Really depends on how well P micros with FF and focus firing vikings to decide the game.
That timing is different against storm because storm is just super good against scvs but also because T can't really afford ghosts before 3base economy, so going 2base ghost scv pull they would have to get ghost academy really early and it would be really allin since they can't afford the 3rd cc. Then they would be praying ht's never get good storms off (but if ht's are spread this is obviously ridiculously stupid to pray for).
Q. Recently I've seen a number of Terran players going for a Marine/tank push. In what ways is it better than the standard bioball?
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Ver wrote:
There aren't many. It's mostly a coinflip/threat of a coinflip, as dedicated tank pushes can break protoss who are playing too greedily. It also gives you great defense against most allins. The main reason most pro Terrans use it is to make the Protoss think they are doing a dedicated tank timing, which makes them play more defensive and use chronos on units instead of upgrades/probes. Dedicated tank timing attacks are not good but the threat of them is enough to make the Protoss play safe.
Marine/tank/medivac attacks also murder the Parting build, which is a unique trait, as the Parting build will have a mass of slow zealot/sentry. The tanks focus fire the latter and the marines just kite the slow zealots.
Q. When to build addons beyond 1st tech lab?
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TheDwf wrote:Right after Starport if you play standard. 3 add-ons pressure before Factory also exists but it's rather bad (you go for a Stim/CS timing with Marines/Marauders) against standard Protoss play; it's a good answer to Blink Stalkers all-in though, and it can be used if you think your opponent is going to pressure you or as a way to punish greedy play on favorable maps (e. g. Cloud Kingdom: no ramp on the natural, possibility to bypass his Tower's sight). Games: - Mvp vs sOs, Bel'shir Vestige, Code A Season 5: stops dead sOs' Blink Stalker all-in;
- Mvp vs MaNa, Ohana, IronSquid II: shows why it's rather bad if Protoss reacts correctly;
- YoDa vs Squirtle, Cloud Kingdom, Code S RO32: Squirtle has enough to defend, so YoDa does not commit;
- YoDa vs Tear, Icarus, Code A 2013 Season 1: YoDa defends Tear's Immortal pressure;
- Dream vs PartinG, Cloud Kingdom, IEM Katowice: a successful instance.
Q. Why have 2 Tech Lab 1 Reactor openings become less common in favor of the more marine heavy 1 Tech Lab 2 Reactor openings?
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Ver wrote:
It depends. Not many koreans do the double reactor style, it's really only MKP that will use it consistently. Basically, double tech is more flexible and versatile, while double reactor is better versus very specific openings. Essentially:
Vs Colossus -> double tech lab >>> double reactor. double reactor has a terrible game vs this.
Vs fast templar double reactor > double tech
Vs double forge -> double reactor >> double tech
Marauders are better for dropping and raiding than marines except for killing probes. Marines are more cost efficient and exponentially better in straight up fights if the Protoss doesn't have aoe. Marauders are still useful if you have a lot of room to kite though. So essentially it boils down to what you predict the Protoss will do, so it's kind of a coinflip either way. I double reactor on maps where colossus are trash (i,e taldarim) and double tech on most others unless I know they dont like cool.
Q. How do you get an edge versus Protoss if your 10 minute timing fails?
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Ver wrote:
Your 2 medivac poke shouldn't actually fail, it should just be repulsed without much loss on either side. You cannot afford to commit too heavily with it. When it does get repulsed freely, you shouldn't worry or think you are behind, it is simply natural. You can continue threatening drops, getting upgrades, and taking your own third. Ultimately, the Protoss has to mess up for you to really gain an advantage, but you can also mess with htem by using empty medivacs to pull their units out of position. The decision between 3 and 5 rax really is more dependent on what kind of player you are and how confident you are if the game drags on. 5 rax obviously has much more offensive potential and can punish greed a lot easier, but feels weaker if the Protoss knows what they are doing and the map affords easy thirds.
On December 13 2012 02:39 TheDwf wrote:When you move out with your first 2 Medivacs, it's more of a poke than a real timing. As you probably experienced, painfuls things do happen if you try to force your way through a ramp (see Yoda vs Socke, Ohana, IEM Katowice to see what happens when you commit while you shouldn't), so unless Protoss went some kind of horrible build not allowing him to defend this simple pressure, just soft contain him while waiting reinforcements / more information about what he's up to. When Medivacs #3 and 4 arrive you have more possibilities; you can try a quadruple drop when Protoss moves out his army near his warping third while moving the rest of your army to cancel the warping Nexus, etc. But there are games in which nothing special happens and you just get away with a faster third (preferably built directly in its location).
On January 25 2013 17:37 Type|NarutO wrote:
Your timing if you play it well should hit before the 2nd colossus and before storm (low units in that case) but its not a push that you can actually win the game with against any Protoss that is not completely bad. He can stall time if he needs with forcefields (…).
If you catch him out on the map (aka not watch tower, not his base) I'd be a bit more defensive but other than that, you can apply pressure. Pressure doesn't always mean attacking. Pressuring can be showing presence on the map, denying his vision. As soon as your medivacs are there, poking is fine but actually attacking is dumb. Protoss has the best defensive ability when it comes down to defending ramps, terrain in total. He can make up for supply deficit with simply cutting your army, he can deny fire power or forcefield-circle you to bug you.
TheDwf wrote:
A common misconception is that Terran systematically has the advantage at the time the Medivac poke arrives at Protoss' natural. That's actually untrue: while with some tech-heavy build orders Protoss might need to stall with Forcefields if you threaten to commit (i. e. approaching the ramp as if you were going to Stim then retreating), some build orders put more emphasis on units and therefore allow Protoss to comfortably massacre your army should you try to commit. Use a stimmed Marine, your flying Factory or a Scan to evaluate the strength of Protoss' army (keeping in mind that Stalkers are usually in his main) and act accordingly.
On February 10 2013 05:25 TheDwf wrote:There are multiple goals [with the Medivac push]: - seizing map control: you deny vision (scanning Observers is key for that) and Pylons, trying to keep him in the dark as much as possible; map control means you can usually build your third directly on its location for example.
- scouting his tech path/unit composition;
- keeping him modest, i. e. he has to deal with your troops and the threat of drops if he wants to take a third.
Soft containing means being in his area, threatening drops so he can't freely move out on the map, or threatening an actual attack so he can't comfortably skip units in favor of greedier tech.
Q. Is it viable to incorporate Hellion harass with bio play?
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On December 24 2012 03:03 Ver wrote:
It's harder to do damage with hellions than you think once warpgate is complete and observers are out, especially when you don't have +1 attack and blue flame to two shot probes. You win or lose tvp against good players by 1a battles, not harass, and without huge probe damage, something very difficult with sentries and stalkers warping in the mineral line, your main army will be severely lacking without sufficient compensation. Gumiho played against Creator in cloud kingdom with very heavy midgame hellion harass and did very well but it barely mattered.
Q. How many barracks should I have per base in TvP?
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TheDwf wrote:
5 Barracks (usually 2 Reactors + 3 Tech Labs) on 2 bases, 8 Barracks (3R + 5L) on 3 bases. Beyond that it depends on your economy, if you have several OCs you can get 12+ (you should rarely need more) with Tech Labs on all those additional Barracks.
Q. How do you attack with your Medivac timing if Protoss already has Storm?
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TheDwf wrote:
Generally, don't attack in a head-on fight a Protoss having Storm unless (a) you have Ghosts, preferably with several EMPs ready or (b) you are confident in your ability to dodge Storms while outnumbering him (situational).
Q. In general is it better to have the 5 Rax before 3rd CC or the 3rd CC after 3 Rax?
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Ver wrote:
'Better' depends on style and on map. If the map is very defensive then 3 rax cc is better, while on maps with a harder to secure third you want to go with the 5 rax. It also depends on whether you think the Protoss is being greedy and if you can punish it or not. If he plays defensively and you 3 rax cc, you end up ahead, while if you 5 rax and he is defensive, it remains even unless your upgrades are delayed. For example, at this IEM Bomber just 5 raxed every game and bulldozed all the greedy foreigner Protosses when he maxed.
Q. When do you add your second Starport?
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Ver wrote:
Second starport is a stylistic thing but is safer. I prefer to get it right away, but some players like Taeja will just stay on 1 starport and rely on having really good sense to know exactly when to make vikings. However, if the Protoss does the trick where they just make 1 colo with no range and tech to templar, then it's mostly wasted money. However, having more medivacs early on is really helpful anyway and rather undervalued.
Q. What to do if my opponent shuts down all my drops?
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Ver wrote:If the Protoss is shutting down your drops easily on maps where drops are viable (i,e Shakuras, Antiga, Taldarim) then either they are turtling very heavily (which means you can get a much better econ) or you are not able to snipe any observers. If the Protoss is in the dark about your army movements it's really hard to stop drops without feedback, in particular the quad drop in the main followed by a rally into the natural which MVP killed Parting with on Metropolis.
Q. Can you punish a greedy Protoss in the midgame?
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Ver wrote:As for punishing it, yes you definitely can. Supernova, Bomber, and MVP all did builds which killed foreigner protosses as soon as they took a third at this iem. Go look at all their replays (link at bottom). If you want to punish, you always do 5 rax before 3rd cc. The TvP build Bomber did at IEM and Asus is a good example of killing greedy Protosses. He maxes very quickly on 1-1. Taeja vs Genius on Cloud Kingdom from the TL open Taeja won is also a good example of heavy 2 base play.
Q. How to play against Templars?
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Ver wrote:Templar in general are more defensive, stop drops easily, and make it hard to press into their base even with a supply advantage. The downside is templar have no offensive potential for a long time and the templar player gets slaughtered if he tries to push out across the middle because then he can't land a storm and gets kited all day. See Marineking vs Parting from the KSL Finals on Daybreak for an example of this, or Taeja vs MC on Entombed from Asus. Versus Templar players you definitely want to add a 4th cc very quickly and focus on all your tech upgrades because they can't threaten much. In general you want to add a ghost academy as soon as you get a whiff of templar, because if they have templar and you have no ghosts you can't really threaten/attack much.
TheDwf wrote:The Dream vs PartinG series at IEM Katowice is a nice illustration of the above point about Templar play, see the Daybreak and the Entombed Valley games.
Q. How many vikings per colossus is recommended?
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TheDwf wrote:
3-4 Vikings per Colossus. No need to make Vikings against a single Colossus without range since it means Protoss is actually teching Templars.
Q. Should I go marauder heavy against templar tech?
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TheDwf wrote:You certainly don't want to be Marauder-heavy against Templar tech as they always come with Charge Zealots, and Marauders are terrible against Zealots. You want lots of Marines with some Ghosts and a handful of Marauders; having a high Medivac count also matters a lot. See Bomber vs Grubby, Ohana, IEM Cologne VII; and Bomber vs Squirtle, Metropolis, Red Bull Battlegrounds.
Q. What is a good time to get Ghosts in a standard game, where the Protoss is going for forge/templar tech?
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Ver wrote:
It is somewhat a stylistic choice and map dependent but in general you want ghosts sooner than later. You first want your 3rd cc, 5th rax, and double ebay/armory before even considering ghosts. You can't really attack the Protoss beyond a certain point without ghosts, as storm and feedback are just too strong defensively. On the other hand, getting ghosts will limit your mobility and harass potential a good amount, which is why Marineking, an initiative based player, will delay them as long as he can. Usually once you have the above pre reqs and you see templar its worth it to grab the academy and research energy upgrade, but you don't want to start massing ghosts until later on unless you feel the game will be very passive. 4-6 is a good amount for midgame pressure options, as too many will leave you with too small of an army.
Q. How do you best use snipes against High Templars?
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Ver wrote:
Can't really put it in words...it really has a lot to do with feel and knowing the practical range of your ghosts/placement in the army/timing. Basically snipe has longer range but feedback is instant cast, so if they both walk in range then try to kill, templar wins, but if Terran scans ahead and does it from range, he wins. Alternatively, you can lead with emp and use the outer radius of it to hit them, though that isn't as good as it used to be.
Q. How do you deal with a 6 colossi + stalker army?
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TheDwf wrote:
Mass Marauders and 20+ Vikings (don't be afraid to make that many Vikings, a Protoss can't recover from losing such an expensive Stalker/Colossus army). You want a Colossus to die at each volley at the beginning of the fight so that his firepower quickly decreases.
Q. How to deal with Phoenixes/Colossi?
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On August 25 2012 15:50 Ver wrote:
Bio/ghost/double starport viking. Don't bother dropping, just play defensively til 200/200. In battle you need to emp the phoenixes and have the vikings focus fire the colossus. You will win the big battles very easy as he'll have so much wasted gas in phoenixes that don't do anything. Hence why nobody does this anymore.
On September 04 2012 06:50 Ver wrote:
The way to beat colo/phoenix 100% reliably is turtling until maxed on 3 base with double port viking and getting ghosts. You can get 2/2 and double port viking, those are not mutually exclusive. Don't bother dropping: it's far too risky and little reward, unless he tries some early 2 base allin and you know where his phoenix are.
In that 200 battle you just emp their phoenix and focus fire colo with vikings and they just wasted tons of money for nothing, meaning you win very easily.
TheDwf wrote:
Yes, actually you overmake Vikings so you can ignore Phoenixes (don't waste shots on them, they're not the damage dealers in his army) and kill Colossi reasonably fast without losing all your Vikings to Phoenixes before they get the job done. Be sure to get air attack upgrades as well.
If you have enough Ghosts, try to hit Colossi too with EMP so you can divide your focus fire and kill 2 Colossi instead of one at the beginning of the fight when you still have enough Vikings.
Don't even try an all-ground approach, it's generally impossible to deal with 3+ Colossi without Vikings unless you badly outnumber him. Uncontested Colossi just deal way too much damage, you will lose like 10+ supply each time they attack and his Zealot wall won't even be down by the time most of your bio is reduced to ashes.
Needless to say, you need a second Starport to deal with Phoenixes/Colossi.
Q. Generally, what is the best way to force a bad engagement for the opponent?
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Ver wrote:
Practicing engagements in TvP is really hard because it requires you to simply be active with your army but have a good eye for knowing when the Protoss army is in bad formation (i,e colossus not able to all fire at once, scrunched up in choke, you have wide arc, stalkers in the front blocking zealot/archon, templar clumped up etc) and instantly seizing it. The best way to learn it would just to watch a large number of top Kor Terrans from their pov's and rewatching the battles and sequences leading up to them over and over.
Q. How many different hotkeys should I have in a standard MMM + Ghost/Viking composition?
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Ver wrote:
You need 2 [TheDwf: I assume he meant 3] hotkeys at a mimum. 1 for marine/marauder/medivac, 1 for ghost, 1 for viking. You can potentially have another for medivacs, and yet another for dividing the bio force into two.
Q. What is the 'best' Terran composition in this matchup?
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Ver wrote:
The "standard" composition is marine/some marauders/mass ghost/medivac + vikings depending on their colossus count. You want to slowly mass as many ghosts as possible over time. Usually players will try to keep a couple marauders in front to absorb charge, then tank with ghosts while pulling marines back to kill zealots. Then the ghosts will retreat once they are under colossus shots and the entire line will engage. If you do not have many ghosts then typically you will simply let the vikings shoot, preferably from a cliff, while kiting far away with your bio until the zealots are nearly dead. The ideal way to engage is simply attacking with a wide arc when their units are not in proper formation. For example, Taeja vs Younghwa on Daybreak, where Taeja attacks Younghwa at the 4th and wins easily because 3 colossus cannot shoot due to being cramped in between a pylon and nexus.
Q. Any tips on unit composition regarding Ghosts/Vikings numbers?
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TheDwf wrote:Ghosts: progressively head towards 20-30 by lategame. Ghost count in your initial max depends on his army composition. Note that Ghosts are extremely expensive and quite slow to produce so depending on how midgame went you might not always have the necessary time and/or economy to get as many Ghosts as you would need. - If mostly Zealots/Archons/HTs aim at 10-15; no more since he should inevitably get a second and perhaps a third Robotics going for a Colossi switch, and seeing your whole Ghost squad evaporate to mindless lasers because you overmade Ghosts instead of getting Vikings really hurts your Terran soul. - If Storm-less max for some kind of 3-0-3 timing try to get 6-8 Ghosts in your max (ideally you would want more but from experience sometimes you barely have time to have the first round of Ghosts ready, not to mention resources issues). Vikings: 3-4 per Colossus, don't forget air attack upgrades. If you manage to get 20-30 Ghosts and 20+ Vikings you have gold in your hands. See ByuN vs HerO, Daybreak, Ups & Downs. To scout his army composition, you mostly scan his army or use your flying Factory or poke with a stimmed Marine. If Protoss opens with Colossi and produces more than 3 of them he will likely max without Storm, possibly going for a 3-0-3 Zealot/Stalkers/Archons/Colossi timing. By (advanced) lategame you shouldn't really have to wonder if he has Colossi or Storm since he should have both: Colossi-free armies can't really handle mass Ghosts outside of defensive positions and Storm-less armies lose much of their appeal once upgrades are equal (assuming your Viking count is appropriate and you have several Ghosts to carpet EMP his army).
Q. Banshees seem very good TvP, how come nobody uses them?
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Ver wrote:
Banshees are really strong TvP, if only for the moment. Long term it's hard to tell, but possibly not. They are very useful for getting the Protoss out of his comfort zone and letting you dictate the pace of the game. They are more risky though and expose you to more coinflip scenarios on certain maps, which is why they are mostly used on larger maps where robo based allins are not as strong. Basically Protoss have had to play against one dominant style of Terran for over a year now (rax expand into bio/medivac) and opening banshees gives you more initiative and makes it harder for him to set up his perfect drop defense that is all too common nowadays.
Q. What about Tanks?
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Ver wrote:
The general thought on tanks is that they are really strong before charge is out and bad after, especially as getting tanks means you are cutting marine upgrades to some degree, which means that when he reaches +2 armor his zealots will just massacre your army. I've experimented with mid-lategame tank play a fair amount and found that it's just not very good . The main problem really comes down to zealots. Tanks can focus fire certain ranged units but they cant move and thus sit there tanking zealots, when normally you'd be kiting to avoid zealot damage. You have to pull your marines behind the tanks to avoid dying to storm/colo, but then the zealots just destroy everything. In short, tanks would need to be 2 supply to make them worthwhile in later armies. If, and this is a big if, you somehow get 20+ tanks in your army they actually become pretty strong, but then you begin to have issues with reinforcements (such as winning a battle with 12~ tanks left over and losing them to a 20 mid-battle zealot warpin).
Q. How to deal with Warp Prism harass by lategame?
+ Show Spoiler [Answer] +
TheDwf wrote:
Turret rings + Sensor Towers by lategame. A small squad of Speedreapers can clear Zealots/DTs warp-ins if you have the time to get it (most likely in split or near split map scenario).
Q. In the lategame, I often feel like I have too much gas. How should I spend it?
+ Show Spoiler [Answer] +
TheDwf wrote:
If you have too much gas it can be for severals reasons: gas 4, 5 and/or 6 taken too early, constant trades causing you to remake Marines and Marauders en masse, not having enough SCVs mining minerals, ... When playing TvP, I find myself gas starved because Ghosts, Vikings, Medivacs and upgrades (including air attack upgrades) absorb everything on 3 bases. When I'm taking my fourth while being maxxed and still on 65+ SCVs, I take gas 7 and 8 right away because I head for mass Ghosts, which takes a lot of gas (Vikings too). So, basically, assuming you have 65+ SCVs on 3 bases, you should be able to dump all your gas into Ghosts/Vikings/Medivacs/upgrades. If you're in a rather low-econ action-packed game in which, for some reason, you constantly trade Marines and Marauders, you should pull some SCVs away from your Refineries because you will have no way to spend your banked gas if it goes too high. Adapt your economy to the type of game you're playing.
Q. I am maxed but don't have enough vikings or ghosts to fight the protoss army. Should I just engage?
+ Show Spoiler [Answer] +
TheDwf wrote:
No, definitely not! If you're stuck with a low-tech bio army with some kind of banking (or a high income) you must increase the efficiency of your army; if you fight with your low-tech or inadequate army hoping you will be able to remax on a better composition, you will likely end up not being able to remax at all since if you lose the fight too badly (and you will if Protoss has many Archons/Colossi/HTs while your Ghost/Viking count is too low) Protoss will trample upon you with Zealots warp-ins. Get rid of your excess of Marines/Marauders (depending on his composition) with suicidal raids or simply kill them yourself to replace them with Ghosts and/or Vikings. Do this progressively of course.
Q. After a major engagment, in which you come ahead but not enough to push their bases, because of warp in, what do you do?
+ Show Spoiler [Answer] +
On December 26 2012 00:44 TheDwf wrote:
Retreat. Unfortunately most of the time when you narrowly win a fight in TvP lategame all you have gained is the right to have another fight later, hopefully winning this one convincingly enough so you can at least destroy an expand before being forced to run away from Zealots' wrath. For sure, overextending against Zealots warp-ins and leftover defensive Templars is the worst thing to do; the exhaustion of your army by dint of repetitive Stims (which means Medivacs will eventually run out of energy) means you will lose troops for nothing, throwing away the edge you might have acquired. Depending on his expands' location you might be able to destroy a remote Nexus but do not sacrifice whatever is left from your army in order to do that. According to the situation you can also use this true-false victory to secure an expand after you retreated. TvP lategame is a war of attrition usually won after several major engagements when Protoss is forced to file for bankruptcy.
On November 06 2012 13:44 Ver wrote:
For example, in TvP if the Terran loses a battle from an even scenario on 4+ bases, he is either massively behind or its game over as Protoss remaxes almost instantly, Terran has no/few ghosts and will likely lose medivacs/energy on them and his units take too long to make. On the other hand if Protoss loses a battle, the Terran almost always has to retreat and remake their army instead of pressing on (at most killing one nearby expo), as if you do you run into templars and full warpins that decimate your weakened army (Taeja/MC in NASL for example). This is why in lategame TvP's the Terran often has to win 3-6 big battles in a row in order to win the game, while the Protoss needs at most 1 or 2 victories.
Q. Do I need more than 3 Reactors by lategame?
+ Show Spoiler [Answer] +
TheDwf wrote:
No, 3 Reactors is fine.
Last edit: 2013-03-04 01:17:56 |
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| TheDwf August 06 2011 04:35. Posts 3599 | Profile # |
| 2nd post Last edit: 2013-02-06 11:23:30 |
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 ToastieNL Netherlands. August 06 2011 04:41. Posts 845 | Profile Blog # |
| After Hive tech? like, with UltraDen AND Greater Sppire completed, wwith 3/3 ups everywhere? Or when the map starts geting mined out? |
| | Zerg lategame is imbalanced as shit. Also: "Protoss is really strong recently. Perhaps, it's time for there to be some changes for Terran." -MMA. Even MMA asks for buffs. Srsly Blizzard. Srsly. |
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| KimJongChill United States. August 06 2011 04:44. Posts 6424 | Profile # |
On August 06 2011 04:35 Peterblue wrote:
What is the best composition possible for late game TvZ? Should I even bother including bio in my late game army?
It's dependent on Zerg composition of course, but marines are never a bad choice. Have some tech lab rax and reactor ports ready for ultra/brood. |
| | MMA: U realise MMA: Most of my army EgIdra: fuck off MMA: Killed my orbital MMA: LOL MMA: just saying MMA: u werent loss |
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| Numy South Africa. August 06 2011 04:44. Posts 7319 | Profile Blog # |
On August 06 2011 04:35 Peterblue wrote:
What is the best composition possible for late game TvZ? Should I even bother including bio in my late game army?
Absolutely. Bio is one of the core components of conventional TvZ. That being said there are other styles out there that can lead to different results, I'm not too familiar with them so I'll just speak about standard marine tank type game.
TvZ isn't really like other matchups. I feel like it doesn't really have any defined "late game" such as TvP/ZvP has. It's generally a war of attrition that your goal is to keep it in a medium sized eco game. So you trading constantly thus never really have time to get some kind of "late game" army. Ghosts/thors/vikings are the only real new components that you can add in but those are generally added before this hypothetical "late game" would occur. Marauders are a good addition if he's going ultras however.
Just to go a bit deeper. Even when the map is being mined out it should still be a "mid-low eco" type situation. Where the whole game you have been trading armies effectively so there's never really time for zerg to reach his ideal composition.
If that doesn't make sense just shout, I'll try explain it better Last edit: 2011-08-06 04:46:31 |
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| ticktack United Arab Emirates. August 06 2011 04:54. Posts 872 | Profile Blog # |
How do I deal with zergs who go Destiny-style infestor play? When they get the first few infestors out, I feel as if I can't push out and be aggressive anymore because he has too many lings and fungals to crush my push. The zerg will then proceed to make a ton more infestors and take the whole map. Then I lose.
Should I just turtle up and drop everywhere until I get 200/200 and 3/3 upgraded units? good zergs put spines on their expansions so sometimes this doesn't seem a good idea. |
| | A winner is just a loser who got pissed off and tried harder |
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| bunnymuncher Canada. August 06 2011 05:02. Posts 110 | Profile # |
On August 06 2011 04:54 ticktack wrote:
How do I deal with zergs who go Destiny-style infestor play? When they get the first few infestors out, I feel as if I can't push out and be aggressive anymore because he has too many lings and fungals to crush my push. The zerg will then proceed to make a ton more infestors and take the whole map. Then I lose.
Should I just turtle up and drop everywhere until I get 200/200 and 3/3 upgraded units? good zergs put spines on their expansions so sometimes this doesn't seem a good idea.
Zergs are very squishy while they are transitioning into infestors. If you scout a finished lair and an infestation pit going down then i would push out. Splitting up your marines works well against a low infestor count. One tip is to poke in/out with your marines IF YOU HAVE MEDIVACS. Let the infestors waste their energy. I aim to have a few seige tanks, decent amount of marines, and a few medivacs for this push. I've always loved fast medicavs. |
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| Ge0Rob England. August 06 2011 05:05. Posts 61 | Profile # |
| How to deal with a very heavy bling infestor upgrade style in TvZ? I feel as if the only way to get into the game without every push getting squashed is by dropping, however once drops are prevented by like 2spines and a spore at each base, it feels like the Z can just mass expand and I have to turtle on 2/3 base. |
| | Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It's just that yours is stupid.. |
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| Vestrel Canada. August 06 2011 05:31. Posts 266 | Profile Blog # |
| What do I do if Zerg goes fast Zergling Speed - FE and I go 12/14 rax? There's no Hatch building at his natural when I get there so should I put up bunkers anyway or build up a bigger Marine count before moving out to pressure him? |
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| Numy South Africa. August 06 2011 05:36. Posts 7319 | Profile Blog # |
On August 06 2011 05:31 Vestrel wrote:
What do I do if Zerg goes fast Zergling Speed - FE and I go 12/14 rax? There's no Hatch building at his natural when I get there so should I put up bunkers anyway or build up a bigger Marine count before moving out to pressure him?
Answered your own question :D. Just wait for a greater marine count and poke the around. Don't over-commit though. Without 2 hatches his production is quite low so he can't really afford to commit to both lings and drones.Last edit: 2011-08-06 05:45:19 |
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| ToastieNL Netherlands. August 06 2011 06:32. Posts 845 | Profile Blog # |
I'm actually wondering about this build. How to?
TvP
2 rax pressure -> Drops -> Expo
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| | Zerg lategame is imbalanced as shit. Also: "Protoss is really strong recently. Perhaps, it's time for there to be some changes for Terran." -MMA. Even MMA asks for buffs. Srsly Blizzard. Srsly. |
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| WarSame Canada. August 06 2011 06:37. Posts 846 | Profile Blog # |
On August 06 2011 06:32 ToastieNL wrote:
I'm actually wondering about this build. How to?
TvP
2 rax pressure -> Drops -> Expo
You probably would want to expand before starting your drops(a good example would be Thorzain's build vs Idra here), but I think you can work out a general build order for your build otherwise.
I'd probably go something like 2 rax, gas, fact, gas, tech lab on rax, starport, reactor on factory, stim, switch reactor to port, move out. I'd really advise against this though because it slows your economy a ton,s o you have to do damage, but the medivac tech slows it down enough that he can probably get enough dling/queens to stop you.
EDIT: TvP not TvZ. Same idea applies though.Last edit: 2011-08-06 07:06:34 |
| | My failures are my fault. My successes are my fault. To think otherwise is to throw away responsibility for my self. | |
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| rogzardo August 06 2011 06:37. Posts 610 | Profile Blog # |
On August 06 2011 06:32 ToastieNL wrote:
I'm actually wondering about this build. How to?
TvP
2 rax pressure -> Drops -> Expo
2 rax --> drops means you have a super late xpo. Borderline Allinish IMO.
Drops are a big part of my TvP, and I either open 1/1/1 for a quick marine/hellion drop, or 1 rax gasless FE, into 3 rax and then drops.
2 rax pressure is nice, but you're going to have to forgo the xpo or the tech for quite a while. ...or just pray you don't get rolled if you try to do both at the same time. |
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| ToastieNL Netherlands. August 06 2011 06:41. Posts 845 | Profile Blog # |
On August 06 2011 06:37 rogzardo wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 06 2011 06:32 ToastieNL wrote:
I'm actually wondering about this build. How to?
TvP
2 rax pressure -> Drops -> Expo
2 rax --> drops means you have a super late xpo. Borderline Allinish IMO. Drops are a big part of my TvP, and I either open 1/1/1 for a quick marine/hellion drop, or 1 rax gasless FE, into 3 rax and then drops. 2 rax pressure is nice, but you're going to have to forgo the xpo or the tech for quite a while. ...or just pray you don't get rolled if you try to do both at the same time.
Guess I'd go for 1 rax FE into 3 rax + drops than  ! Thank you. |
| | Zerg lategame is imbalanced as shit. Also: "Protoss is really strong recently. Perhaps, it's time for there to be some changes for Terran." -MMA. Even MMA asks for buffs. Srsly Blizzard. Srsly. |
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| Numy South Africa. August 06 2011 06:51. Posts 7319 | Profile Blog # |
On August 06 2011 06:41 ToastieNL wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 06 2011 06:37 rogzardo wrote:
On August 06 2011 06:32 ToastieNL wrote:
I'm actually wondering about this build. How to?
TvP
2 rax pressure -> Drops -> Expo
2 rax --> drops means you have a super late xpo. Borderline Allinish IMO. Drops are a big part of my TvP, and I either open 1/1/1 for a quick marine/hellion drop, or 1 rax gasless FE, into 3 rax and then drops. 2 rax pressure is nice, but you're going to have to forgo the xpo or the tech for quite a while. ...or just pray you don't get rolled if you try to do both at the same time.
Guess I'd go for 1 rax FE into 3 rax + drops than ! Thank you.
You can go 2 rax into expand then add on drops. Nothing wrong with it. Usual opening is 12 rax then 16 rax (before depo) while getting reactor on other rax. Then add on tech lab and push out with a few marines + 1 marauder and conc shell. If he's not going 1 gate fe you just fall back and put down expo. It's a nice build on certain maps and safe. The main issue with what you said was drops before expo and not many builds do that without being quite all inish |
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| rogzardo August 06 2011 06:54. Posts 610 | Profile Blog # |
On August 06 2011 06:51 Numy wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 06 2011 06:41 ToastieNL wrote:
On August 06 2011 06:37 rogzardo wrote:
On August 06 2011 06:32 ToastieNL wrote:
I'm actually wondering about this build. How to?
TvP
2 rax pressure -> Drops -> Expo
2 rax --> drops means you have a super late xpo. Borderline Allinish IMO. Drops are a big part of my TvP, and I either open 1/1/1 for a quick marine/hellion drop, or 1 rax gasless FE, into 3 rax and then drops. 2 rax pressure is nice, but you're going to have to forgo the xpo or the tech for quite a while. ...or just pray you don't get rolled if you try to do both at the same time.
Guess I'd go for 1 rax FE into 3 rax + drops than ! Thank you.
You can go 2 rax into expand then add on drops. Nothing wrong with it. Usual opening is 12 rax then 16 rax (before depo) while getting reactor on other rax. Then add on tech lab and push out with a few marines + 1 marauder and conc shell. If he's not going 1 gate fe you just fall back and put down expo. It's a nice build on certain maps and safe. The main issue with what you said was drops before expo and not many builds do that without being quite all inish
Agreed. When I 2 rax ---> expo I usually tech straight to drops off the 2 rax, which is pretty risky. Auto-lose to 6 gate and similar builds. Guess I should just throw down 1 more rax before the factory... |
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| SurroundSound August 06 2011 07:11. Posts 104 | Profile Blog # |
Recently in TvT, ive been favoring playing a safe turtle game to get 2 bases where i make my push but it was absolutely crushed by a thor/hellion/tank combination where i was sieged and he wasnt and he charged into my line and demolished it?
1. Is that a better combination to go for out of safe turtle game that i like to play?
2. When is the best time to attack with my tanks unsieged...in other words how should i charge a siege line with my tanks unsieged?
edit: I also like to get vikings out for denying drops and banshees. Can this be included if question 1 is a yes?Last edit: 2011-08-06 07:17:12 |
| | Its not John Hancock...Its Herby Hancock |
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| Numy South Africa. August 06 2011 07:18. Posts 7319 | Profile Blog # |
On August 06 2011 07:11 SurroundSound wrote:
Recently in TvT, ive been favoring playing a safe turtle game to get 2 bases where i make my push but it was absolutely crushed by a thor/hellion/tank combination where i was sieged and he wasnt and he charged into my line and demolished it?
1. Is that a better combination to go for out of safe turtle game that i like to play?
2. When is the best time to attack with my tanks unsieged...in other words how should i charge a siege line with my tanks unsieged?
TvT isn't really something that can be discussed without specifics(Replays etc.). Generally if you going for a more passive playstyle while just creeping to expansions you want to stick around siege tanks with air control while using hellions as min sinks. I don't really get the "2 base turtle". That's not really turtling tbh. If you staying on 2 bases for long you basically gearing up for a timing attack so it isn't really a "safe turtle game".
For a timing what I said changes. I don't have much experience with mech timing attacks in TvT. I don't see it often either. I assume you going to want enough tanks for defence then go into thor mode and push when you have enough thors to break his line and finish the game. Likely when he tries to take a third since there will be a small window where he's stretched out and doesn't have enough to completely seal off such a thing
EDIT: If you are going mech vikings are very important. You need to get air control or at least deny his air control. Overall I don't really think you can do a 2 base timing in TvT and what your question relates to seems to be exactly that, maybe post some replays of play in question. Last edit: 2011-08-06 07:25:22 |
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| ilion United States. August 06 2011 07:36. Posts 63 | Profile Blog # |
TvP 1 rax gasless FE questions:
How many bunkers at my natural is too much? 4? This is obviously when I've scouted a 3gate robo or 4gate.
Also, how do you deal with blink stalker? As in a rush to blink. I've never actually faced this so I don't know when the timing for a blink rush to finish is, but I still forsee it as being a weakness of a gasless FE. |
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 Kritzkrieg United States. August 06 2011 07:45. Posts 57 | Profile # |
Vs. Protoss, I prefer to sky terran and open with cloak banshees, then banshee/Thor/rine for one observer snipe army trades. I have the whole mid to late game down, but I have a bunch of openings that all don't feel optimal.
I can siege expand, causeing my harass to be late and, if not afterward against, moves a massive waste of gas on the siege tech and 3 or so tanks.
I can rush banshee and potentially get epic harass and can also get my door knocked down by even a sup par 3gate push, and trade future gas needed for thirst, banshees, stim, ravens, ship armor and potentially BCs.
I can 1rax FE and simply ignore harass and tanks in favor of a 2 base unit comp death push, but will be behind economically without a solid plan to get my third.
So how would you open if this was UR unit comp goal? Tyvm. |
| | "Check 4 check 5 check 6 check 7 check money check map" -Day9, aka the voice in my head. |
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