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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | deeshoo United States. June 16 2012 12:03. Posts 319 | Profile Blog # |
On June 16 2012 11:41 dynwar7 wrote:
Ok I will summarize my question.
What is the way to go in TvT? Is it only pure bio, marine tank, or mech?
Is there a new, fresh style that works nice?
Most are pretty viable, although I would say marine tank eats up pure bio. Whenever I play against mech I have to go pure bio (mostly marauders if anything) and from there it's a matter of just properly controlling the fight until I have a strong number of battlecruisers and thors (to clear out any vikings). Playing against mech is a huge pain in the ass. |
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| Angel_ United States. June 16 2012 12:08. Posts 1615 | Profile Blog # |
On June 16 2012 11:01 n00b1n8R wrote:I seriously don't understand the TvP matchup. I played protoss for over a year and I can't see how I ever lost to a terran. I've been totally outplaying my opponent in every measurable regard (except upgrades this game) and still get totally annihilated. I never felt like I could just go kill him even though he was so far behind the whole game (untill he a-moved across the map). Colo, zealots, templar, IDK how to deal with any of them. I'm ranked gold but I lose to bronze toss. I was ranked plat when I was still playing toss. http://drop.sc/198594Please help 
okay. I've watched this twice now.
I'm going to ignore your build order.
You didn't outplay your opponent in any regard. That's what you need to accept first. Until the 20 minute mark you actually didn't have ANY army that could have attacked him directly and won, despite the fact that you out-based him.
You climbed up to four bases before you got past 8 rax. and you had reactors on 2 of the total 11 at the end of the game...when you were going for your sixth base. and let me underline, you had 2 reactors. marines are your friend. marines are your best friend. marines are your best friend in the whole world.
while you were up around 4-6 bases you got almost 100 scvs. that severely cuts into your army count, assuming you're actually making an army. screw the wrong composition or barracks add-ons or adding three seige tanks in the early game and just barrelling through his cannons at the 12 minute mark instead of doing some cute drop and losing everything. between half of your supply being scvs, and spending a full 22 minutes to max between the combination of having four bases and not enough production and simply NOT USING the production you had, there's actually just no way. Even if that no way is going up against a 1 base protoss turned into 1 and a half base protoss when his main is almost mined out and his first nexxus fucking dies hiding behing cannons that IS at least managing to use his warp-gates and get upgrades.
you tried to do some stutter stepping in the main engagement, and frankly if youd had the right composition you would have just crushed his army standing still. your micro is not good enough yet that you can stutter step a protoss army. but more to the point almost no ones stutter step micro is good enough to actually stand up against 3/0/1 chargelots and a shitload of immortals with 1/1 marines and the capacity to only remax with mauraders.
In short: I know you're learning and the match-up is confusing and you aren't sure what units to make. But your biggest problem is the fact that you were floating 4-5k from just not making stuff, and had very little stuff to potentially make stuff with to begin with. I think you'll find as you just fix THAT problem a lot of armies are going to be a lot less scary. And then you'll rage about templar and storm and that's normal till you learn to micro ghosts or spread the shit out of your units in an arc and use small clusters of mauraders to templar hunt.
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On June 16 2012 11:41 dynwar7 wrote:
Ok I will summarize my question.
What is the way to go in TvT? Is it only pure bio, marine tank, or mech?
Is there a new, fresh style that works nice?
I vary depending on the map I'm on. It depends on how you want to play too. Each of the three are viable if you're practiced with it, and each has weaknesses it has to overcome. I would say probably that marine tank is PROBABLY the most "stable" of the three, though personally i prefer straight bio into air (or greedy as a whore straight air and hope they don't notice =P). Last edit: 2012-06-16 12:14:23 |
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| s3rp Germany. June 16 2012 12:44. Posts 2798 | Profile # |
On June 16 2012 11:26 AKomrade wrote:
I don't understand how tank/marine works in vT. When do I start siege tech out of the 1 rax fe > 3 rax? How many rax do I add on? I never seem to have enough marines or tanks. sometimes both.
Normally you start with 3 the Rax and pure Marines into Medivacs ( beware of potential 1-1-1 stuff you might need tanks earlier here ) then either build a third or go up to 5 Rax and then take a third with the third you can go up to 8-10 rax with 2-3 facs . I normally don't build a single tank before i have at least 4 Medivacs and 1-1 for my Marines already done hell at times i have 1-0 on Mech before i have a single tank.
Of course you have to be sure you don't face any kind of early tank push on one base . Which you either have to intercept ( easier said than done before Stim ) or have 1-2 defesive tanks yourself.Last edit: 2012-06-16 12:51:25 |
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| Seiferz United States. June 16 2012 12:49. Posts 624 | Profile # |
Diamond Terran here in need of some help.
I used to be diamond/low master level with protoss and zerg about 6 months ago before I took a break and decided I would try terran out after the semester ended. I rolled back into diamond pretty easily but I've hit a wall.
Can anyone recommend some standard safe openings/strategies to use in all my matchups? I can 1 rax expo safely in pretty much every matchup but I don't know where to go from there.
TvZ: If I 1 rax expo with heavy marines I usually always die to roach ling bling because my tanks are so late. If I go pure bio, I get rolled by blings and fungals even if I manage to do damage. Should I stick to 1 rax or open hellion or what?
TvT: I used to 1 rax expand until I got rolled by that medivac/hellion/reaper play or really really aggressive 1/1/1. I've tried 1 rax into 3 rax then gas and double gas before the 2 rax. Which one is better for long term?
Thanks for the help!
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| dynwar7 June 16 2012 17:28. Posts 1945 | Profile # |
Ok, when I am bio vs a meching Terran, people say to drops and abuse immobility of the mech....but what if they have a good number of missile turrets? Not mass....but not few(so I can run straight past them), but just enough to kill my medivacs so quickly....if I cannot drop vs Mech, what can I do? Plus what if they use sensor towers to deny my drops?
Now that drops is no longer possible, what can a bio player do vs mech -.- |
| | Regarding the imbalance, hilarious to see Zergs defending themselves.... |
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| Angel_ United States. June 16 2012 17:57. Posts 1615 | Profile Blog # |
On June 16 2012 17:28 dynwar7 wrote:
Ok, when I am bio vs a meching Terran, people say to drops and abuse immobility of the mech....but what if they have a good number of missile turrets? Not mass....but not few(so I can run straight past them), but just enough to kill my medivacs so quickly....if I cannot drop vs Mech, what can I do? Plus what if they use sensor towers to deny my drops?
Now that drops is no longer possible, what can a bio player do vs mech -.-
go around his army when he starts to move out and base trade, which you should have a severe advantage on from your greater mobility and higher base count.
and/or
if it's apparent that you can't drop soon enough deny his third as long as you can, and absolutely any fourth; even with missile turrets if he's too spread out you can do BIG medivac drops (4) and replenish hella fast to abuse him for being too spread out since you should be on 5+ bases. when he pushes, either base trade, OR try to force the engagement early and whittle him down slowly as he tries to siege walk the map, since again, you can reinforce faster, AND punish his other bases while you force him to siege up.
and/or
if it's apparent that you can't drop soon enough (in any of these we're assuming you're being greedy with bases since you can get away with it)...go air. drop as efficiently as you can and just go mass air. you've got an insane potential gas count, use it and then laugh at his tanks with bc/raven/viking. Last edit: 2012-06-16 17:58:11 |
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| dynwar7 June 16 2012 20:04. Posts 1945 | Profile # |
On June 16 2012 17:57 Angel_ wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 17:28 dynwar7 wrote:
Ok, when I am bio vs a meching Terran, people say to drops and abuse immobility of the mech....but what if they have a good number of missile turrets? Not mass....but not few(so I can run straight past them), but just enough to kill my medivacs so quickly....if I cannot drop vs Mech, what can I do? Plus what if they use sensor towers to deny my drops?
Now that drops is no longer possible, what can a bio player do vs mech -.-
go around his army when he starts to move out and base trade, which you should have a severe advantage on from your greater mobility and higher base count. and/or if it's apparent that you can't drop soon enough deny his third as long as you can, and absolutely any fourth; even with missile turrets if he's too spread out you can do BIG medivac drops (4) and replenish hella fast to abuse him for being too spread out since you should be on 5+ bases. when he pushes, either base trade, OR try to force the engagement early and whittle him down slowly as he tries to siege walk the map, since again, you can reinforce faster, AND punish his other bases while you force him to siege up. and/or if it's apparent that you can't drop soon enough (in any of these we're assuming you're being greedy with bases since you can get away with it)...go air. drop as efficiently as you can and just go mass air. you've got an insane potential gas count, use it and then laugh at his tanks with bc/raven/viking.
Thanks mate.
So, what is a good time to drop? As soon as I have 2 medivacs? I want to do this too but I am afraid I will get attacked while my 2 medivacs' worth of army are away... |
| | Regarding the imbalance, hilarious to see Zergs defending themselves.... |
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| xertion Sweden. June 16 2012 20:31. Posts 52 | Profile # |
On June 16 2012 12:49 Seiferz wrote:
Diamond Terran here in need of some help.
I used to be diamond/low master level with protoss and zerg about 6 months ago before I took a break and decided I would try terran out after the semester ended. I rolled back into diamond pretty easily but I've hit a wall.
Can anyone recommend some standard safe openings/strategies to use in all my matchups? I can 1 rax expo safely in pretty much every matchup but I don't know where to go from there.
TvZ: If I 1 rax expo with heavy marines I usually always die to roach ling bling because my tanks are so late. If I go pure bio, I get rolled by blings and fungals even if I manage to do damage. Should I stick to 1 rax or open hellion or what?
TvT: I used to 1 rax expand until I got rolled by that medivac/hellion/reaper play or really really aggressive 1/1/1. I've tried 1 rax into 3 rax then gas and double gas before the 2 rax. Which one is better for long term?
Thanks for the help!
Regarding the TvT matchup and 1 rax expand. I always go Depot, Racks, Depot, Expand to get an extra marine so I can get early mapcontrol over my opponent and to grab the Xel'Naga towers. This is very important if you either dont scout his base early, or if you do scout and you see he go gas.
Since you have Xel'Naga control you don't need to defend your ramp, and you can leave all your marines in the back of your base, ready for any banshee or drop. If you have good positioning when a banshee or a drop comes, it makes wonders.
Also, if you do get dropped when fast-expanding with a build as such, pull your scv's. A LOT of them. He probably got about 20-25-ish scv's when his push hits, and you probably have 25-30-ish. But you also have double mule and you can rebuild scv's faster than him. So even if you lose 10-15 scv's (Which ofcourse is not good), you are still in the game after your successful defence.
The other thing that could be dangerous is if they go a 1 base tank-push. This is also a case where it's super important to have map control early so you see his army midmap. As soon as you see tanks on the map earlygame, move out with your marines and intercept him. He probably doesnt even have siege mode ready when the tank is midmap.
If he DOES get a siege up, it's the same case as with the drop. Pull A LOT of scv's and CRUSH his push. If you pull too few you will just end up losing a bunch of scv's and your army.
The only earlygame TvT strats I lose to is a unscouted Thor-cheese-push or a super micro intensive banshee, hellion harass-style. I use the ThorZaIN build and I have been using it for quite some time now, it still works great. But it depends a lot on details such as mapcontrol, marine position etc.
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Regarding TvZ:
I also go fast expand in this matchup. I go Depot, Barracks, Depot, 2 marines and build the command center with the scv building the second depot. I also scout with my last 15th scv before orbital. The only thing you have to scout for is obviously if he fastexpand, but also if he go an early gas or not. Especially if its before pool or after pool.
When I see his gas I run my SCV to corner of map to be able to use it to scout if he build fast third later. If he goes gas, I build a bunker close to my command center (expansion) and start building supply depots to wall of my bunker and expand. This bunker defends A LOT of all ins from the zerg. Roach, Speedlings and ofcourse it helps (but not 100% proof) against banelingbusts. If he doesnt go gas he probably either go 4 queens and early third. Or he go late gas roach + baneling all in.
After my expand is down, I go double gas into reactor hellions, and also build a third command center. While building hellions I use my barracks to build 2 tech labs. (One for factory and one for racks to research stim). I build 4 hellions then switch into tank production. I dont use hellions to do damage, I use them to deny his third as long as possible. If third is down already, I use them to block drone transfer and kill zerglings.
It's SUPER important that you switch your factory to tech lab as soon as you build 4 hellions. Don't wait 20 seconds, the timing is crucial to defend some 2 base all ins.
If he goes early third I go double enginering bay and do a push with marine + tank at 1-1. This push is not perfect yet for me, I still have not found the "perfect timing" of this push. But usually its with 3-4 tanks and a couple of marines. When I move out with this push, I take my third base with the command center I build earlier.
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 From Afar United States. June 16 2012 21:13. Posts 19 | Profile # |
On June 16 2012 12:49 Seiferz wrote:
Diamond Terran here in need of some help.
I used to be diamond/low master level with protoss and zerg about 6 months ago before I took a break and decided I would try terran out after the semester ended. I rolled back into diamond pretty easily but I've hit a wall.
Can anyone recommend some standard safe openings/strategies to use in all my matchups? I can 1 rax expo safely in pretty much every matchup but I don't know where to go from there.
TvZ: If I 1 rax expo with heavy marines I usually always die to roach ling bling because my tanks are so late. If I go pure bio, I get rolled by blings and fungals even if I manage to do damage. Should I stick to 1 rax or open hellion or what?
Well, obviously you want to bunker up, and build walls with depots, but more important is that you scout it coming. You can't really rely on finding tech structures, so you're going to need to see the zerg's gas. I typically scan the gases in the main around 6:30 to 7:00 min to see how much gas zerg is mining. If you can scout it somehow without using a scan, that's even better. You can also check the natural with a hellion or something, but basically, if zerg has 2 or more gases, they could be all inning. They could also just be getting the gas for fast upgrades, so look for evo chambers and also check to see if zerg has speed. If he has lots of gas and no speed or upgrades, it's probably a roach all in. If he has speed and no other upgrades, it could be a baneling bust, or maybe even a roach baneling speedling all in, but those come so late that you have a lot of time to prepare. If you know it's coming, you should have plenty of time to get a few tanks out, and if you do, you should be fine. If you're in the worst case scenario where you didn't know it was coming until the units were already heading to your base, then the best you can do is spam bunkers.
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| medic_ro Romania. June 16 2012 22:44. Posts 104 | Profile # |
| --- Nuked --- Last edit: 2012-06-16 22:45:13 |
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| From Afar United States. June 16 2012 23:05. Posts 19 | Profile # |
On June 16 2012 22:44 medic_ro wrote:
Control Panel -> Stacraft 2 -> Uninstall Sc 2
You win 100%. Until they focking buff something vs toss lategame ... and not more toss buff, zerg IMPORTANT buff , terran "BUNKER NOT CHANGED" patches
I get the feeling you just lost a game. |
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| HallBregg June 17 2012 00:24. Posts 125 | Profile # |
Hey Guys!
has someone ever tried a TvZ opener including a raven and 2 banshees? It seems like a good way to deny creep, and with the pdd's you can't be stoped by a few queens, you can even kill some drones thanks to pdd`s! |
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| kuroshiroi June 17 2012 01:19. Posts 3149 | Profile # |
What's the worst case scenario while doing the Demuslim opening in TvZ? I.e. which composition would crush the Demuslim build? Lots of banelings? Really fast mutas?
I just won with it the first time I tried it, executed it really poorly but the results were still very onesided. There must be a weakness to it? |
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| Vanchen June 17 2012 01:21. Posts 55 | Profile Blog # |
On June 17 2012 01:19 kuroshiroi wrote:
What's the worst case scenario while doing the Demuslim opening in TvZ? I.e. which composition would crush the Demuslim build? Lots of banelings? Really fast mutas?
I just won with it the first time I tried it, executed it really poorly but the results were still very onesided. There must be a weakness to it?
Roach Bling Bust or a third base with 2 spines and good lingbling control |
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| kuroshiroi June 17 2012 01:41. Posts 3149 | Profile # |
On June 17 2012 01:21 Vanchen wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 01:19 kuroshiroi wrote:
What's the worst case scenario while doing the Demuslim opening in TvZ? I.e. which composition would crush the Demuslim build? Lots of banelings? Really fast mutas?
I just won with it the first time I tried it, executed it really poorly but the results were still very onesided. There must be a weakness to it?
Roach Bling Bust or a third base with 2 spines and good lingbling control
Yeah, makes sense. I need to get better at scouting these busts anyway so hopefully this will help me. Somehow. Thanks.
Seems like it'd be hard to get spines up at the third in time though? |
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| monkybone June 17 2012 01:53. Posts 2877 | Profile # |
| So many Terran builds nowadays seems to be BO losses to a variety of Zerg all ins. I don't think a quick 3 CC build can defend both fast 2 base muta and roach baneling all ins. Especially not those going CC before either tanks or starport. Last edit: 2012-06-17 01:54:34 |
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| Vanchen June 17 2012 02:06. Posts 55 | Profile Blog # |
On June 17 2012 01:53 monkybone wrote:
So many Terran builds nowadays seems to be BO losses to a variety of Zerg all ins. I don't think a quick 3 CC build can defend both fast 2 base muta and roach baneling all ins. Especially not those going CC before either tanks or starport.
You serious? How is 2base muta in any way a counter to 3cc? Getting tanks in time will obviously help for a roach bling bust, if you scout it, dont be afraid to make 4 bunkers as you have 3cc's. 2 base muta..... you should have rax up in time as well as double engie bay for turrets so I don't know how you are dying to it. |
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| monkybone June 17 2012 02:16. Posts 2877 | Profile # |
On June 17 2012 02:06 Vanchen wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 01:53 monkybone wrote:
So many Terran builds nowadays seems to be BO losses to a variety of Zerg all ins. I don't think a quick 3 CC build can defend both fast 2 base muta and roach baneling all ins. Especially not those going CC before either tanks or starport.
You serious? How is 2base muta in any way a counter to 3cc? Getting tanks in time will obviously help for a roach bling bust, if you scout it, dont be afraid to make 4 bunkers as you have 3cc's. 2 base muta..... you should have rax up in time as well as double engie bay for turrets so I don't know how you are dying to it.
Watch how Life crushed Jinro's 3CC with siege tanks build in the GSTL. Life even commented on his choice of strategy after the match, he said that it was one of his ways of punishing the greedy Terran builds. No one can hold a decent pack of mutas at 8:30 with 4 marines and a single producing rax. Jinro didn't even skimp on the marines which many players do. In the current meta you can't expect to scout this in order to have turrets up in time, as it's uncommon to scan that early even when you don't see a quick 3rd. You will almost certainly lose quite a bunch of SCVs. Bunkers aren't gonna help you here. It wasn't disparity in skill that determined the outcome of that match.
Last edit: 2012-06-17 02:22:27 |
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| xertion Sweden. June 17 2012 02:21. Posts 52 | Profile # |
On June 17 2012 01:53 monkybone wrote:
So many Terran builds nowadays seems to be BO losses to a variety of Zerg all ins. I don't think a quick 3 CC build can defend both fast 2 base muta and roach baneling all ins. Especially not those going CC before either tanks or starport.
This assumes that the terran does not scout, at all. My normal buildorder is the fastexpand into 4 reactor hellions into third command center.
I scout at 15 supply and check the Zergs gas. If they have gas, I keep my scv on the map and I run into his base when his Zerglings is out on the map (usually they dont camp ramp with lings). If they kill the scv, I just scan.
This is done before my factory is done. If they are still mining gas there is probably a Roach or a baneling all in coming. I then just leave the reactor on the racks, build a techlab on the factory and I get 2 tanks out before their Roach + Baneling + Speedling all in hits.
Meanwhile I also build an additional bunker (I build first bunker when I see first gas with 15 scout, since probably coming speedling runby minimum) and I wall in. When wall in and bunkers are up, I build my third orbital.
Example replay of exactly this scenario is below. Notice that I'm a few seconds late on my siege tank and siege upgrade. If I upgraded even faster then I would've hold it even easier.
Notice that I do have 3 command centers when his Roach + Baneling all in hits.
Lastly. If there is no roach + baneling all in coming, I build 4 hellions. These hellions are used for map control and to check and deny his third base. If there is no attempts for a third base I scan base for Lair/Spire. 2 base spire is usually up before 9-10min. 3 base Spire is up at like 12-ish minute I think.
At 10 minutes you easily have the marines needed to deny his Mutalisk harrass on your 2 bases. Ofcourse you do not move your third orbital to a new base until you feel safe.
REPLAY:
http://speedy.sh/rmAYu/teamliquid-example.SC2Replay
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| monkybone June 17 2012 02:38. Posts 2877 | Profile # |
On June 17 2012 02:21 xertion wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 01:53 monkybone wrote:
So many Terran builds nowadays seems to be BO losses to a variety of Zerg all ins. I don't think a quick 3 CC build can defend both fast 2 base muta and roach baneling all ins. Especially not those going CC before either tanks or starport.
This assumes that the terran does not scout, at all. My normal buildorder is the fastexpand into 4 reactor hellions into third command center. I scout at 15 supply and check the Zergs gas. If they have gas, I keep my scv on the map and I run into his base when his Zerglings is out on the map (usually they dont camp ramp with lings). If they kill the scv, I just scan. This is done before my factory is done. If they are still mining gas there is probably a Roach or a baneling all in coming. I then just leave the reactor on the racks, build a techlab on the factory and I get 2 tanks out before their Roach + Baneling + Speedling all in hits. Meanwhile I also build an additional bunker (I build first bunker when I see first gas with 15 scout, since probably coming speedling runby minimum) and I wall in. When wall in and bunkers are up, I build my third orbital. Example replay of exactly this scenario is below. Notice that I'm a few seconds late on my siege tank and siege upgrade. If I upgraded even faster then I would've hold it even easier. Notice that I do have 3 command centers when his Roach + Baneling all in hits. Lastly. If there is no roach + baneling all in coming, I build 4 hellions. These hellions are used for map control and to check and deny his third base. If there is no attempts for a third base I scan base for Lair/Spire. 2 base spire is usually up before 9-10min. 3 base Spire is up at like 12-ish minute I think. At 10 minutes you easily have the marines needed to deny his Mutalisk harrass on your 2 bases. Ofcourse you do not move your third orbital to a new base until you feel safe. REPLAY: http://speedy.sh/rmAYu/teamliquid-example.SC2Replay
Zerg can have around 7 roaches in your natural at the 6:30 mark. This is something DRG likes to do. I don't see how you could cost-effectively defend that without a banshee on the way, quicker tanks, or blind marauders, especially with a ling followup. Around 7 mutas can also be in your main at 8:30. At this point, according to your explanation (if im not mistaken) you would have 6 marines and a bunker at your natural unless you scouted the early spire. That you scan so early for spire is safe, but very uncommon. It's also not uncommon to hide super early spires on the edge of your main with overlord creep to prevent being scouted by a scan.
You reacted very well in that game, but I don't believe you have an entirely foolproof strategy versus Zerg allins.Last edit: 2012-06-17 02:40:49 |
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