| theBOOCH United States. August 11 2011 05:17. Posts 830 | Profile # |
| This is similar to an acronym I came up with a long time ago, which is much simpler, but less thorough. E.M.I.T. Economy comes first, followed by Military (building units), followed by Intelligence (information gathering) and Technology. I think you'll find it fits nicely with your pyramid, and can be used in game to make sure you are not forgetting some aspect of strategy that could help you improve. |
| | If all you're offering is Dos Equis, I will stay thirsty thank you very much. |
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| cogwheel42 United States. August 11 2011 05:19. Posts 4 | Profile # |
I just said imo the picture should look like a hourglass. For macro games the pic is perfect, but everything else its just wrong, whatever you say.
I think the contention is that you see this as "what is most important to the success of a match" instead of "what is most important to the improvement of the player." I agree in a match an hourglass shape would make more sense.
This is about learning the game not playing a match though. Basically it means, for every hour you spend practicing, you'll get more wins by mastering the lower levels first before focusing on the higher level things.
At least that's the way I see it  Last edit: 2011-08-11 05:22:20 |
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| Budha Canada. August 11 2011 05:39. Posts 60 | Profile # |
@Crytch
I'll have to agree with you at least on that point! I mean, "Cheese" (airquotes ftw!) and early pushes are an integral and very important part of the game. You can't rely on only winning past the 20 minute mark. I tried to take this into account when constructing this  |
| | If it's worth killing, it's worth overkilling. |
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| Ixirawr United States. August 11 2011 05:45. Posts 86 | Profile # |
This looks really great - this should be something linked to new players looking to learn the game.
As has been mentioned, you should state that this is for standard games. When cheese happens, things are a bit different.
I very much like that you have micro listed so high up the ladder. Totally agree that it is overhyped. |
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| cogwheel42 United States. August 11 2011 05:45. Posts 4 | Profile # |
That's what I mean. You're focused on the short-term individual outcomes of particular games whereas this is meant to deal with overall trends. It's not saying you won't get better by practicing micro. It's saying that, assuming you've mastered neither, mastering macro will improve your win rate more than mastering micro.
This is like weather vs climate. Air conditioning will help you stay cool on days of hot weather, but moving to a cooler climate will mean you don't have to worry about it as much. You may still need AC for the days when the weather is hot, but you wouldn't need to spend as much on one and it wouldn't have to be as powerful to get the same end result: your comfort.
That being said, I agree that you shouldn't ignore any level of the pyramid. Maybe it should be seen more as a weight distribution. So yeah, spend some time practicing scouting, micro, etc., but spend MORE time making sure you have a solid foundation.Last edit: 2011-08-11 05:46:56 |
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| Tryxtira Sweden. August 11 2011 05:45. Posts 464 | Profile # |
The idea behind this is simply astonishing and this thread should be put on the Liquipedia. I have not time to read through the actual content but we can all help out to tweak that. Really cool of you to put take the time needed for this well-made post, kudos! <3
I'll go through it myself tomorrow and will respond with thoughts and constructive criticism!
EDIT: Just realized, I think "Solidness" should be a step rather than "Build". Solidness should imply in knowing how you can open (your builds) but also being able to respond in a solid fashion to, for example, an additional base, how many rax can 2 base support if I make marines? Being able to do the same opening 100 times in a row and being able to respond to your additional income is crucial in order to improve at around that level.
You've learned to make stuff, question is, how much can you make?Last edit: 2011-08-11 05:49:50 |
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| Crytch Germany. August 11 2011 05:51. Posts 135 | Profile # |
Waaaaaaaaaaaah, budha agreed with me, now we can marry. ♥_♥
xD |
| | You: Quick idra, answer this: 3 men walk into a bar. is one of them gay? EGIdrA: depends on whether or not anyone of them plays protoss |
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| Budha Canada. August 11 2011 05:58. Posts 60 | Profile # |
lots of love Crytch <3 XD
@Tryxtira
I actually think that is a great point, I will be modifying that tomorrow along with more things. I'd like to change that name though... I don't necessarily like "Build" but honestly, i like it better than "solidness" simply because it's very vague and sounds like something made up... I'd love some thoughts on that level, I'll look to improve on it.
Also, I **think** I've noticed that people talk mostly about where they are at. Am I wrong? I'd like to elaborate on that somehow.... It was really easy for me to actually talk about lower levels, but you can see the difficulty I had with that last one! |
| | If it's worth killing, it's worth overkilling. |
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| dizzy101 August 11 2011 06:07. Posts 1223 | Profile # |
Great diagram. Agree with the main points it makes. There may be overlap between knowledge and information ('knowledge' doesn't just mean knowledge of the diagram, right?) And WTF is dusting?
But in either case, very useful to aspiring players. |
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| Navane Netherlands. August 11 2011 06:07. Posts 2405 | Profile Blog # | |
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| cogwheel42 United States. August 11 2011 06:08. Posts 4 | Profile # |
On August 11 2011 05:58 Budha wrote:
@Tryxtira
I actually think that is a great point, I will be modifying that tomorrow along with more things. I'd like to change that name though... I don't necessarily like "Build" but honestly, i like it better than "solidness" simply because it's very vague and sounds like something made up... I'd love some thoughts on that level, I'll look to improve on it.
How about "tightness"? It's not "made up" in that people already use it, e.g. "tightening up builds."
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| Chiller274 Germany. August 11 2011 06:09. Posts 56 | Profile # |
Hi Budha,
I like the idea of trying to structure the learning aspect of the game.
But I think the idea of a static pyramid is not suitable. It only helps when you go through the process the first time. But it is a starting point to developed structured methods in improving in starcraft 2.
I think you should improve to a method which can be run in cycles and defines input and output to the next steps and maybe integrate a middle where you can store all you improvements.
This would visualize the neverending process of improving in starcraft 2 |
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| Grimsong United States. August 11 2011 06:10. Posts 252 | Profile # |
On August 11 2011 06:08 cogwheel42 wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 05:58 Budha wrote:
@Tryxtira
I actually think that is a great point, I will be modifying that tomorrow along with more things. I'd like to change that name though... I don't necessarily like "Build" but honestly, i like it better than "solidness" simply because it's very vague and sounds like something made up... I'd love some thoughts on that level, I'll look to improve on it.
How about "tightness"? It's not "made up" in that people already use it, e.g. "tightening up builds."
Other words...
Fluidity
Smoothness
Steadiness
Consistency?
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| Adrenaline Seed United States. August 11 2011 06:10. Posts 194 | Profile # |
@Crytch
I think what the size of each layer is meant to represent is order of importance in learning to play SC, not winning a specific game. |
| | Think Big. Act Small. Fail Fast. Learn Quickly. |
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| Budha Canada. August 11 2011 06:14. Posts 60 | Profile # |
@ Dizzy You can expand the descriptions of each section, I explain the difference between knowledge and Info. as well as "Dusting" and why I called it Dusting If you still have questions, don't hesitate! :D
@cogwheel I already like it better, but somehow sounds dirty! 
@Chiller I agree that you always come back and cycle through the same aspects when improving, although I found that these cycles always come back to this analytic structure. It seems like an arrow from each level going back to the first would be appropriate? Any other have thoughts on this?
@Grimsong +1 Consistency, altought I would like to keep it related to Build Order... Maybe Build Consistency? |
| | If it's worth killing, it's worth overkilling. |
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| Mr. Black United States. August 11 2011 06:48. Posts 405 | Profile Blog # |
The pyramid is similar to what I believe. Even if you play an early game rush style, you still need to understand economy and production. For example, two essential elements of 4-gate are cutting probes and chronoboosting WG instead of economy. I suppose you could learn the build like dogma and execute it like a robot without understanding why you cut probes and chrono WG, but if you want to improve overall, you need to understand how a 4 gate impacts your economy.
I am a mere gold player  . My approach is to treat every game as an opportunity to improve. I spent a looooong time in bronze before I started improving. What I did was load up YABOT (build order tester) and practiced just making drones, expansions and spending all the resources that came in. I didn't play ladder for about a week, until I could macro off four bases and spend all the resources.
When I started playing on the ladder, having only the ability to macro in a vacuum (no harass) I got promoted in one day to silver. Gold came soon after by working on protecting economy and macroing (turtling).
The next step for me is to be able to ALWAYS macro while engaging. Right now I'm about fifty-fifty: when I reinforce, I usually win, when I focus on micro, I usually lose with a couple k in mins.
I only move my army after injecting, making ovies, then spending all my resources or larva. I believe when I have this down solid, I will be in Plat.
TL;DR - You improve by focusing effort on the most important things in the proper order. The pyramid is a pretty good approximation of the proper order of elements that need to be mastered to improve. |
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| Mahtasooma Germany. August 11 2011 06:49. Posts 374 | Profile # |
You are mostly right, but there are army compositions that are very very unforgiving where one mismicro or 2sec delay in reaction / micro WILL cost you the game.
Examples are Ling / Infestor compositions where the Infestors lack too far behind the lings, you attacking / using infestors too late / out of range will get all your lings roasted in 3 seconds. Not neural parasiting all siege tanks in range will cost you the game as well as one single tank will shred all of your infestors NPing the other tanks.
Another example are mutas that are not babysitted every second against Thors or you blindmoving Mutas across the map when they move across a bulk of stimmed marines.
This list is endless. Basically some unit comps are very very unforgiving. Well you could argue that one should stick to more forgiving unit comps at the lower levels, like Roach + X :-D |
| | http://twitch.tv/mahtasooma |
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| CeriseCherries United States. August 11 2011 06:52. Posts 4706 | Profile Blog # |
| I really think that its hard to define skills as a pyramid. For instance, you could have excellent mechanics (macro) and not beat someone with worse mechanics and execution. For instance Boxer, who is not particularly inspiring in his macro, will beat other players with tip-top macro because of his execution and creativity. Skills run parallel, synergyzing with each other, not necessarily building off each other |
| | Remember, no matter where you go, there you are. |
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| Jermstuddog United States. August 11 2011 07:00. Posts 2054 | Profile Blog # |
This is a great tool for coaching purposes and I will direct all my newbie friends to this thread when they ask me how to improve.
I spend hours explaining to people that they need to stop trying to micro like MKP and focus on just making more stuff.
Unfortunately, most people are always looking for the easy way to the top rather than how they can work harder on the most miniscule changes to slightly improve their game. |
| | As it turns out, marines don't actually cost any money -Jinro | |
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