Heart of the Swarm (details, discussion, etc)

On April 26 2012 21:25 Demerzel wrote:
Raynor was degraded to a sad character by the end of WoL. Killing Protoss fanatics for mineral wealth? What have they done to him or anyone else? Isn't that kinda anti-religious? Isn't he an ally of the Protoss? Why on earth will he never listen to Matt's suspicions on Tychus? And speaking of which, did he have to kill Tychus at the end? He could have wounded him, tried to help him out. There are so many more annoying aspects about him, he ultimately becomes extremely unlikable. The gameplay was great, but the characters were highly flawed. IMO the story should have taken place from different viewpoints, not just that of the renegade Hyperion crew (which, btw, seem a little OP considering that they barely suffer any losses against the behemoth armies of Mengsk and Kerrigan). Also, wtf is wrong with Mengsk? Isn't he supposed to be a great leader on face value? Since when did he start chanting stuff like 'work hard, etc. etc.' and how did he turn into such a totalitarian dictator?

1) The Protoss are divided into tribes, and the ones he fought (the Tal'darim) had little to do with the ones he allied in BW. He owed them nothing. And when he did fight Protoss who knew him, they would respond that they were happy to meet him in "glorious battle". It seems to me that the Protoss accept war as a solution to conflicting interests and honor it. Everything about Protoss gives the impression that they are a warlike people, and gladly accept that war is a part of their reality.

2) He knew he could trust Tychus, and in fact, he could until the end. Tychus let him shoot him. Tychus had the chance to shoot, but he didn't. Tychus knew he had to die; as he couldn't betray Raynor by killing Kerrigan. And if he didn't kill her he would certainly die to the mechanism in his suit. Tychus fulfilled his role as a friend and companion of Raynor and didn't betray him at all. Raynor knew this, he understood Tychus' sacrifice and honored it by killing him, and not letting him die by the trigger of a button (wounding him would have achieved nothing, even so, how would you wound a man in a suit like that). So, while Matt's suspicions was in some sense correct, Raynor was also correct in that Tychus would never betray him.

3) It would seem obvious from BW that Mengsk was in it purely for power, as he would show little regard to the people in his coup. You know he "ordered" the slaughter of an entire planet by luring the Zerg there. He wouldn't be stopped by anything to rule, so a totalitarian dictator is the only natural role for him. As for Mengsk being portrayed as a good leader, I think it comes forth albeit somewhat humorously through the broadcasts that Mengsk has control over the media, and that this control is falling apart with the new but critical journalism we get to see.

Last edit: 2012-04-26 23:26:05

Forikorder April 26 2012 23:39. Posts 5171

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He could have wounded him, tried to help him out

and then watched him slowly died as the suit shut off his organs

it was a mercy kill

Since when did he start chanting stuff like 'work hard, etc. etc.' and how did he turn into such a totalitarian dictator?

you never finished the SC1 terran campaign?

[UoN]Sentinel United States. April 28 2012 02:30. Posts 2491

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I love Wings of Liberty, and I especially love the fact that there's a lot of turtle-centric missions (like the last one), which is what I was hoping for more of in the BW days (when I was scrub and got attacked a lot and loved to build bunkers and cannons). But I'm hoping for more offensive ones in Zerg to suit their nature more, ones where you have to attack quickly (and perhaps a deathball-centric Legacy of the Void?)

Anyweiz - I want some of the old Brood War cynicism back, where things don't always go the right way, there's a lot of pyrrhic victories for all three sides, and more political turmoil than the average Tom Clancy book. I think Kerrigan and Raynor are a bit too happy, and Tychus was the only one that canonically dies (pretty sure Ariel and Tosh are both non-canonical).

In fairness, however, we are only 1/3 of the way through SC2. So in the first two episodes of SC2, Zasz dies... and that's pretty much it, isn't it? So in Heart of the Swarm I want to see a few people die (In III and IV fell Tassadar, Overmind, and Aldaris) and by LotV I want to see characters drop like flies.

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willoc Canada. April 28 2012 04:53. Posts 976

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Everyone, please remember that there is no definitive proof that Tychus was killed (or even shot) at the end of WoL.

Be bold and mighty forces will come to your aid!

nerak Brazil. April 28 2012 05:48. Posts 234

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Everyone, please remember that there is no definitive proof that Tychus was killed (or even shot) at the end of WoL.

Yes there is. In the post mission text it says something like "The Queen of Blades is gone, but at a high cost: Mengsk remains ruling over the sector and Tychus is dead". Sorry

and also SPOILERS

+ Show Spoiler +

@moonkybone, agree with almost everything you said. Except your third point. Mengsk is described as someone with great rethorics. And someone who is very popular, who people rely on, etc. There is not a single place in WoL that could convince me that anyone has any reason to like Mengsk. His pseudo-Orwellian state is a caricature. Not cool. They didn't need to play the "dictador" card so hard, it wouldn't hurt to be more subtle - we're no children, are we? That's one of the reasons the game feels childish sometimes. How am I supposed to believe Mengsk is a popular ruler after playing Liberation Day? Killing innocents, that's ok, it's supposed to be a secret. But how can I buy that Dominion citizens actually support a man who does such obvious facist propaganda?

Anyweiz - I want some of the old Brood War cynicism back

I'm so with you. I think that most lore fans are, including the ones that liked WoL's story.

But in SC, in 30 missions, you lose Kerrigan, Zsaz, and Fenix - this one, temporarily. You also see Raynor be busted and the very campaign ends with you running away from your leader because everything you'd been fighting for last 9 missions was a lie. And the Protoss chapter? An useless civil war that couldn't happen while Aiur is falling.

How many bad things happen to you in WoL's 29 missions? Running away from Char, check - but everyrhing feels so calm just after... Killing Hanson, check. Prophecy missions, double check. The Hybrid making you run away like a chicken, check. What else? Not much. Not many bad things happen to you in WoL. And I'm afraid that HotS will have even less bad news for you. They want you to feel that Kerrigan is a dark awesome goddess, so we will have some of the dark back, but the failures that made SC/BW so classy? They'll be missed.

EDIT: Seems we will have at least some kind of news soon. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=332722

Last edit: 2012-04-28 05:49:57

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[UoN]Sentinel United States. April 28 2012 10:17. Posts 2491

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I think in some way the failures need to either be there in the end or be toned down. In Brood War the byzantine diplomacy gave you a one-two punch every couple of missions. Overmind's under UED control? BOOM, Zerg campaign. UED is dead and everyone's celebrating? BOOM, kill Fenix and Duke.

While it makes for very varied gameplay and a riveting story, it's a little hard replaying those particular missions knowing that all your work is for nothing. When I played thru Terran Campaign on the SC2 version, I just stopped at the Big Push, because I didn't want to have to go through that betrayal again. I just closed SC and pretended that for once, just for once, everyone (well the terrans) wins and Mengsk is actually an awesome guy.

One day I'll get around to writing my 17-minute epic. Also, exploring heavy metal. || Seize the day!

summerloud Austria. May 01 2012 14:33. Posts 951

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i really hope the story will get better again but i have little hope after the disaster that was the wol storyline

Poll: will duran re-appear in hots?

yes (35)

78%

who is duran? (7)

16%

no (3)

7%

45 total votes

Your vote: will duran re-appear in hots?

(Vote): yes
(Vote): no
(Vote): who is duran?

why is everyone but me suffering from selective perception?

Sinedd Poland. May 01 2012 19:57. Posts 6195

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I hope its going to be good.. -.-

T H C makes ppl happy

summerloud Austria. May 01 2012 20:33. Posts 951

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was anything about duran confirmed already?

Last edit: 2012-05-01 20:34:53

why is everyone but me suffering from selective perception?

Demerzel May 02 2012 02:30. Posts 23

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Also, in WoL, the Protoss technology is the same so many years into the future in the Overmind's vision. That was amusing :|.

DoubleReed United States. May 02 2012 04:37. Posts 3133

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On May 02 2012 02:30 Demerzel wrote:
Also, in WoL, the Protoss technology is the same so many years into the future in the Overmind's vision. That was amusing :|.

I didn't think it was that significantly in the future. Couple years at most.

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SnuggleZhenya May 02 2012 19:32. Posts 545

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On April 26 2012 23:15 monkybone wrote:

2) Tychus had the chance to shoot, but he didn't..

Tychus did shoot, but Raynor blocked the shot by getting in the way and it bounced harmlessly off his armor.

You'll never get better being an angry nerd sitting alone in your room.

monkybone May 02 2012 20:35. Posts 2873

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On May 02 2012 19:32 SnuggleZhenya wrote:

Show nested quote +

Tychus did shoot, but Raynor blocked the shot by getting in the way and it bounced harmlessly off his armor.

Well, I meant he had the chance to shoot Kerrigan before Raynor could do anything about it. Instead he left it up to Raynor to take action and kill him in order to save Kerrigan.

Last edit: 2012-05-02 20:36:58

[UoN]Sentinel United States. May 02 2012 23:22. Posts 2491

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On May 02 2012 02:30 Demerzel wrote:
Also, in WoL, the Protoss technology is the same so many years into the future in the Overmind's vision. That was amusing :|.

Technically, it was worse, which makes me think they just salvaged what they could (not counting zealots, carriers, DT's, other units that have been the same for thousands of years). They didn't have any sentries

One day I'll get around to writing my 17-minute epic. Also, exploring heavy metal. || Seize the day!

[UoN]Sentinel United States. May 02 2012 23:29. Posts 2491

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Actually, now that I think about it, a lot of the Protoss technology HAS been the same. Let's take a look:

Zealot - historical main soldier of Protoss Army
High Templar - historical unit
Dark Templar - historical tribe, even.
Archon - historical sacrificial unit

Dark Archon - Well, this one was only introduced in a time of great peril. This is probably the only unit I would want for accuracy, because I think at that point the sacrifices didn't matter any more. The Protoss could use any power they could get their hands on. Anyways...

Colossus - old unit that has just recently been re-activated
Immortal - improvement on the
Dragoon - historical wounded zealot unit
Observer - well, it's been around, I'm not sure how long the protoss have been using them
Scout - historical unit
Corsair - historical DT air unit
Carrier - Protoss fleet
Mothership - very old Xel'Naga unit reverse engineered by the Protoss

I think that's all of them, which leaves the Daelaam units that have only been invented because the Khalai and Dark Templar came together after the Brood War.

Stalker - DT dragoon
Void Ray - spaceship made by Khalai and DT engineers working together
Warp Prism - I think this is Daelaam, but I may be wrong. This might be problematic, but it's an improvement on the shuttle at any rate
Phoenix - Daelaam to an extent, since it's based off of both the Scout and Corsair although it much more resembles the latter.

So yeah, given that they've had these units for at least a millenium, the fact that their technology hasn't improved over seven years isn't too much of a stretch.

One day I'll get around to writing my 17-minute epic. Also, exploring heavy metal. || Seize the day!

nerak Brazil. May 03 2012 02:32. Posts 234

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I think that's all of them

You forgot about sentries. Those feel pretty Daelam for me BTW.

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GohgamX Canada. May 03 2012 04:12. Posts 911

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Duran will return for sure! I don't see the story line getting interesting without him

Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils ...

[UoN]Sentinel United States. May 03 2012 04:35. Posts 2491

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On May 03 2012 02:32 nerak wrote:

Show nested quote +

You forgot about sentries. Those feel pretty Daelam for me BTW.

A quick trip to the wiki tells me they're combat drones because the Protoss are nearing extinction. So yes, DEFINITELY should be in the final mission.

Also, what happened to that old rumor that Raynor dies protecting Kerrigan from Duran? What happened to that?

Last edit: 2012-05-03 04:36:54

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Zato-1 Chile. May 03 2012 09:22. Posts 2577

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On May 03 2012 04:35 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:

Show nested quote +

Raynor won't die. Narratively, he's too important for the Terran race; Mengsk, the Confederacy and the UED are kind of interchangeable, but the Terran race doesn't make a lot of sense without Raynor.

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[UoN]Sentinel United States. May 04 2012 04:43. Posts 2491

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On May 03 2012 09:22 Zato-1 wrote:

Show nested quote +

Raynor won't die. Narratively, he's too important for the Terran race; Mengsk, the Confederacy and the UED are kind of interchangeable, but the Terran race doesn't make a lot of sense without Raynor.

How about in Legacy of the Void? SC3 could be continued with characters like Kerrigan, one of the Mengsks (either one, Valerian's death would be a nice hint of tragedy), Artanis or Zeratul. We just need to keep Kerrigan alive because there's really no other Zerg main characters at this point.

Or take a page out of Valve's book and never get to 3, and just have them all die in LotV.

One day I'll get around to writing my 17-minute epic. Also, exploring heavy metal. || Seize the day!