| Dead9 United States. April 13 2012 00:50. Posts 2324 | Profile Blog # |
naix isn't very good against dk
dk has too much armor for the lifeleech to have too much of an effect, and frost breath/dragon tail really screw naix over
i think western teams just pick whatever heroes they feel comfortable playing |
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| Percutio United States. April 13 2012 00:52. Posts 1366 | Profile Blog # |
On April 13 2012 00:42 Numy wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 00:18 TheYango wrote:Dragon Knight quite simply is the most well-rounded carry in the game as of 6.74. He's strong in lane, a strong teamfighter at all stages of the game, a strong pusher, has a short-CD disable, has both AoE physical and magical damage, is ranged while also being very tanky...he's just very well-rounded. He may not be the "strongest" carry (whatever the hell that means), but he's a safe pick because of how versatile he is and how good he is at whatever tempo your team wants to play to.
On April 13 2012 00:11 Percutio wrote:
I love dragon knight and I think he is really good, but he really isn't even something you have to counter while he does have counters (Minus armor, naix, OD). In other words, as long as you don't get dominated by the push (Which he shouldn't be the defining factor for), other carries can do more than fine against him with items. I do feel that he is really strong with items and a somewhat quick level 16. His core is gotten pretty fast and a lot of other carries don't have enough damage to kill him at that point. This is exaggerated by tower advantages which he can effectively help his team get. I love to see him in teams with strong semi carries, especially something like a Leshrac or Queen of Pain.
I'm not sure how -armor and Na'ix counter Dragon Knight more than they do any other carry in the game. Both are naturally strong against heroes that have a lot of HP and very little armor--and having not enough armor is definitely not one of Dragon Knight's problems. Dragon Knight gets picked/banned quite a bit in SEA/Chinese play (he just barely doesn't make the banlist in Chinese DotA 1, but without a lot of the high bans in the DotA 2 pool, he's very easily a bannable hero in this context). The only reason I can see for western teams not using him is simply just not having enough experience with the hero (there was that 1-2 week period a while back where everyone tried Dragon Knight, and then suddenly stopped, but in general, play on him seemed really unrefined.
It seems to me like Western metagame isn't so much about what is strong, merely what is the flavour of the week.
Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 00:38 Percutio wrote:
EG was using him a lot for a while. Also -armor is more efficient the closer to 0 you get it, so with DK's high armor and that being one of his strengths I find it is particularly effective. Na'ix is particularly good for similar reasons with DK's tankiness helping Nai'x out. Obviously they are both good things against other carries, but just particularly good against DK as it targets his strengths specifically. That would be my reasoning for that and I also feel that playing against any of those as DK makes it more difficult. Slardar with his minus armor feels difficult more so than Na'ix even because I feel like DK has breathing room against Na'ix like he does against any other particularly hard carry who needs lots of items while Slardar just ults you and you take a ton of extra damage.
I still wouldn't consider those reasons to not play him as I feel like he is still strong enough to be really useful even against those things which give him trouble, but I feel like the counters are a smart way to deal with Dragon Knight's carrying power.
I don't really understand what you saying. Slardar is good against almost any carry if your team has physical damage. How does your first sentence make sense. You are saying minus armour is better the closer you get your enemy armour to 0 and thus DK with _High_ armour is worse vs it then a carry with not as high armour? Surely having _High_ armour against anti armour is in fact a bonus added to the fact that DK is a strength hero which means his HP pool is naturally higher than agility carries. I fail to see how -armour is better against DK than other carries.
Essentially it is this, if you start reducing armor under 0 it is less efficient. So heroes who do not rely on a lot of armor take more damage just like any other hero, but the reduction is less efficient than it would be on someone with high armor. So Dragon Knight, who's high armor is a key feature of his tankiness, loses a lot more effective HP than someone with lower armor. It isn't a waste to lower someone with lower armor past 0, but reducing someone with high armor close to 0 is more efficient in reducing EHP. Slardar's ult therefore does it's maximum damage amplification on heroes like Dragon Knight who have high armor.Last edit: 2012-04-13 00:53:58 |
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| Numy South Africa. April 13 2012 00:55. Posts 7359 | Profile Blog # |
Let me give you a situation:
A is an agility carry with low/medium armour and medium/low hp
B is a strength carry with high armour and high hp
Which of the two do you think minus armour does more to? Last edit: 2012-04-13 00:56:55 |
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| whoso Germany. April 13 2012 00:57. Posts 358 | Profile # |
| anyone read cyborgmatts blog update? i have to say, im pretty concerned with the fact that items have 'attributes' and are shown in the killcam...maybe not cosmetic only? |
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| MrCon France. April 13 2012 00:59. Posts 20342 | Profile # |
| Imo DK isn't picked for the same reasons Specter isn't picked (even tho she's been picked twice this week) imo, and it's because they need a lot of farm, basically they're in the very upper tier of heroes that need the most farm if there was a ranking. And it doesn't fit well in the current metagame. |
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| Percutio United States. April 13 2012 01:02. Posts 1366 | Profile Blog # |
Look, Dragon Knight loses more effective hp than the lower armor hero.
I'm not going to answer a loaded question where you can make the squishy hero squishier. Not to mention tons of agi heroes have great armor. |
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 Kipsate Netherlands. April 13 2012 01:05. Posts 18008 | Profile Blog # |
On April 13 2012 00:59 MrCon wrote:
Imo DK isn't picked for the same reasons Specter isn't picked (even tho she's been picked twice this week) imo, and it's because they need a lot of farm, basically they're in the very upper tier of heroes that need the most farm if there was a ranking. And it doesn't fit well in the current metagame.
DK doesn't need that much farm, BKB, Pipe and or Vanguard is all he needs to be a force, at level 16 he turns into a dragon that can wreck everything, maybe needs a Mjolnir or an AC for damage, but if he has BKB/Pipe then he is already a force to be reckoned with. He doesn't need items more then any other carry in the game, in fact he needs less, its also very possible to not play DK as your primary carry due to this. |
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 TheYango United States. April 13 2012 01:05. Posts 15749 | Profile # |
On April 13 2012 00:59 MrCon wrote:
Imo DK isn't picked for the same reasons Specter isn't picked (even tho she's been picked twice this week) imo, and it's because they need a lot of farm, basically they're in the very upper tier of heroes that need the most farm if there was a ranking. And it doesn't fit well in the current metagame.
OK, now people are just making things up.
If DK isn't picked because he "needs farm", then why is he one of the most played carries in Chinese DotA 1 right now, in a metagame that's heavily centered around carries with strong MIDGAME teamfight potential?
He has a short CD ranged stun, AoE magic damage, a skill that adds strong single-target magic damage early on to your attacks that transitions into letting you do AoE physical damage later. These things make him a strong midgame teamfight hero without needing a ton of farm.Last edit: 2012-04-13 01:08:17 |
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| cilinder007 Slovenia. April 13 2012 01:08. Posts 3231 | Profile # |
| but a dk with only vg+bkb you can just ignore because he doesnt do that much dmg anyway |
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| Numy South Africa. April 13 2012 01:08. Posts 7359 | Profile Blog # |
On April 13 2012 01:02 Percutio wrote:
Look, Dragon Knight loses more effective hp than the lower armor hero.
I'm not going to answer a loaded question where you can make the squishy hero squishier. Not to mention tons of agi heroes have great armor.
Yes so they have great armour but lower natural HP which means they same boat as DK merely less hp? Basically you are saying high armour targets take more damage from minus armour than low armour targets yet what you said was it's less efficient to reduce armour past 0. So what you are saying is that armour values past 0 have an inverse effect on your physical resistance. That's the only possible way I can see your reasoning that a hero will high armour will be "squishier" than a hero with low armour in this situation. |
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| Kipsate Netherlands. April 13 2012 01:10. Posts 18008 | Profile Blog # |
On April 13 2012 01:08 cilinder007 wrote:
but a dk with only vg+bkb you can just ignore because he doesnt do that much dmg anyway
He will do damage with Breath, Auto attacks, AOE(if the level is there), Dragon Tail for stun, he will do more then enough. |
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| TheYango United States. April 13 2012 01:10. Posts 15749 | Profile # |
On April 13 2012 01:08 cilinder007 wrote:
but a dk with only vg+bkb you can just ignore because he doesnt do that much dmg anyway
Clearly a 300 damage AoE nuke and 20 magic damage per second added to your right-click is not that much damage in teamfights from levels 7-12. |
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| cilinder007 Slovenia. April 13 2012 01:12. Posts 3231 | Profile # |
On April 13 2012 01:10 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 01:08 cilinder007 wrote:
but a dk with only vg+bkb you can just ignore because he doesnt do that much dmg anyway
Clearly a 300 damage AoE nuke and 20 magic damage per second added to your right-click is not that much damage in teamfights from levels 7-12.
but I wouldnt expect a dk at lvl 7-12 to have a vg/pipe + bkb already ? |
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| Percutio United States. April 13 2012 01:13. Posts 1366 | Profile Blog # |
On April 13 2012 01:08 Numy wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 01:02 Percutio wrote:
Look, Dragon Knight loses more effective hp than the lower armor hero.
I'm not going to answer a loaded question where you can make the squishy hero squishier. Not to mention tons of agi heroes have great armor.
Yes so they have great armour but lower natural HP which means they same boat as DK merely less hp? Basically you are saying high armour targets take more damage from minus armour than low armour targets yet what you said was it's less efficient to reduce armour past 0. So what you are saying is that armour values past 0 have an inverse effect on your physical resistance. That's the only possible way I can see your reasoning that a hero will high armour will be "squishier" than a hero with low armour in this situation.
By all means the lower armor hero will take more damage and be squishier, which is why it is good. But the high armor hero loses more effective hp. They still have more ehp than the lower armor hero because they still have more armor. I didn't say they will be squishier, just that they lose more from the reduction especially in DK's case where he has an entire passive 8 armor buff that can get nullified. |
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| TheYango United States. April 13 2012 01:13. Posts 15749 | Profile # |
On April 13 2012 01:12 cilinder007 wrote:
but I wouldnt expect a dk at lvl 7-12 to have a vg/pipe + bkb already ?
No, but you don't need Vanguard/BKB to be a teamfight powerhouse in that level range. |
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| Numy South Africa. April 13 2012 01:15. Posts 7359 | Profile Blog # |
On April 13 2012 01:13 Percutio wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 01:08 Numy wrote:
On April 13 2012 01:02 Percutio wrote:
Look, Dragon Knight loses more effective hp than the lower armor hero.
I'm not going to answer a loaded question where you can make the squishy hero squishier. Not to mention tons of agi heroes have great armor.
Yes so they have great armour but lower natural HP which means they same boat as DK merely less hp? Basically you are saying high armour targets take more damage from minus armour than low armour targets yet what you said was it's less efficient to reduce armour past 0. So what you are saying is that armour values past 0 have an inverse effect on your physical resistance. That's the only possible way I can see your reasoning that a hero will high armour will be "squishier" than a hero with low armour in this situation.
By all means the lower armor hero will take more damage and be squishier, which is why it is good. But the high armor hero loses more effective hp. They still have more ehp than the lower armor hero because they still have more armor. I didn't say they will be squishier, just that they lose more from the reduction especially in DK's case where he has an entire passive 8 armor buff that can get nullified.
I get that you are saying the spell is more efficient if the armour doesn't drop below zero. It's just that we aren't worried about -armour efficiency. The spell is not the object of this, it's the hero. It doesn't matter the change of "EHP" it's the absolute "EHP" which is what is important to us. Your implication was that minus armour counter DK more than other heroes because this change was greater but if this doesn't make his absolute go lower than those heroes then it doesn't actually counter him anymore than them and like you said plenty agility carries have high armour so this situation might not even happen with them.Last edit: 2012-04-13 01:17:13 |
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| MrCon France. April 13 2012 01:17. Posts 20342 | Profile # |
On April 13 2012 01:05 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 00:59 MrCon wrote:
Imo DK isn't picked for the same reasons Specter isn't picked (even tho she's been picked twice this week) imo, and it's because they need a lot of farm, basically they're in the very upper tier of heroes that need the most farm if there was a ranking. And it doesn't fit well in the current metagame.
OK, now people are just making things up. If DK isn't picked because he "needs farm", then why is he one of the most played carries in Chinese DotA 1 right now, in a metagame that's heavily centered around carries with strong MIDGAME teamfight potential? He has a short CD ranged stun, AoE magic damage, a skill that adds strong single-target magic damage early on to your attacks that transitions into letting you do AoE physical damage later. These things make him a strong midgame teamfight hero without needing a ton of farm.
Well that was just my guess, no need to be that aggressive ><
What you say is true, even if most applies in dragon form only. His cooldowns are short, but with a mana pool of 500 at level 16 he can barely use his spells twice. I know he's strong all around, but he also has weaknesses which perhaps explain why he isn't picked more. Or people just ignore it without reason, which is also possible.
And if your carry has to go pipe he's not really your carry. edit : well, perhaps he can still be :DLast edit: 2012-04-13 01:19:10 |
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| TheYango United States. April 13 2012 01:18. Posts 15749 | Profile # |
On April 13 2012 01:17 MrCon wrote:
Well that was just my guess, no need to be that aggressive ><
What you say is true, even if most applies in dragon form only. His cooldowns are short, but with a mana pool of 500 at level 16 he can barely use his spells twice. I know he's strong all around, but he also has weaknesses which perhaps explain why he isn't picked more. Or people just ignore it without reason, which is also possible.
And if your carry has to go pipe he's not really your carry.
What? |
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| cilinder007 Slovenia. April 13 2012 01:19. Posts 3231 | Profile # |
On April 13 2012 01:17 MrCon wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 01:05 TheYango wrote:
On April 13 2012 00:59 MrCon wrote:
Imo DK isn't picked for the same reasons Specter isn't picked (even tho she's been picked twice this week) imo, and it's because they need a lot of farm, basically they're in the very upper tier of heroes that need the most farm if there was a ranking. And it doesn't fit well in the current metagame.
OK, now people are just making things up. If DK isn't picked because he "needs farm", then why is he one of the most played carries in Chinese DotA 1 right now, in a metagame that's heavily centered around carries with strong MIDGAME teamfight potential? He has a short CD ranged stun, AoE magic damage, a skill that adds strong single-target magic damage early on to your attacks that transitions into letting you do AoE physical damage later. These things make him a strong midgame teamfight hero without needing a ton of farm.
Well that was just my guess, no need to be that aggressive >< What you say is true, even if most applies in dragon form only. His cooldowns are short, but with a mana pool of 500 at level 16 he can barely use his spells twice. I know he's strong all around, but he also has weaknesses which perhaps explain why he isn't picked more. Or people just ignore it without reason, which is also possible. And if your carry has to go pipe he's not really your carry.
why wouldnt a carry go pipe |
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