On February 09 2012 06:48 Slithe wrote: This debate is a waste of time and space. This thread is to help out people who are interested in the Paleo Diet. ElizarTringov, if you want to talk about vegan diets, you should go to the existing Vegan Threads or perhaps create your own thread.
I find the Paleo diet is a danger to peoples health. I guess I should stand by on the sidelines and let them suffer health problems?
Ah yes, the paleo studies show that it's dangerous for your health.... oh wait..... there are none that show Paleo is bad for your health.
On September 06 2011 00:48 eshlow wrote: Why Paleo?
The nutritional guidelines that many people from the previous TL Health and Fitness thread recommend is the Paleolithic diet.
Despite what you may have heard about the Paleo diet, it is neither low carbohydrate or high carbohydrate. It can be either depending on how many carbohydrates you eat from fruits and vegetables.
Instead, the Paleo diet focuses specifically on inclusion of high quality and nutrient rich foods upon which we evolved: fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds, meat, birds, fish, eggs.
Dairy, grains, and legumes are excluded specifically because of potential detrimental aspects that these foods may on our gastroinstestinal system and subsequently the rest of our organ systems by proxy.
As an aside my personal opinion is that dairy is fine as long as you are not lactose intolerant.
Grains and legumes are touted by the government as healthy even though there is little evidence supporting these statements especially regarding fiber and nutrients as fruits and vegetables provide more of each and are healthier. Many people have heard of Celiac's disease which is characterized by chronic inflammation of the intestinal tract due to gluten, a protein in wheat and many other grains.
It was thought that in the absence of Celiac's there seemed to be little evidence to the detrimental effect of grains. However, that is changing as recent research into suggests that gluten sensitivity may exist in upwards of 2/3rds of the population. Another. In particular, gliadin protein seems to specifically stimulate the immune system to produce antibodies against transglutaminase which is a protein in all cells within the body.
Thus, grains may contribute to the pathogenesis of many of the so-called disease of civilizations which include:
1. neurodegenerative diseases such as Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, and the severity of Huntington's 2. Cardiovascular disease which includes heart disease, atherosclerosis, peripheral vascular disease, stroke 3. Pulmonary disease asthma, COPD, etc. 4. Metabolic disease which includes diabetes 1 and 2, metabolic syndrome, osteoporosis 5. Gastrointestinal disease such as Celiac's, Crohn's, IBS, Colitis, etc. 6. Organ issues such as kidney, liver, etc. 7. Autoimmune such as rheumatoid arthritis, multiple sclerosis, ALS, SLE, dermatitis, etc. 8. And others such as cancer, depression, obesity, acne, etc.
Doc who "cured" her 2nd degree multiple sclerosis: + Show Spoiler +
There are several other factors involved in the pathogenesis of many of these diseases that can be obtained from diet besides (1) gluten/grains such as (2) excessive amounts of carbohydrates especially fructose, (3) excessive intake of omega 6 oils throwing off O6:O3 balance, and (4) trans fats.
These 4 dietary factors comprise most of the problems with the modern diet.
Additionally, there are other factors to consider beyond diet:
1. High stress all the time. Stress increases insulin resistance, and production of cortisol (which decreases inflammation in short term but chronically there's a lot of negatives). 2. Lack of sleep. Increases insulin resistance, and inflammation. 3. Lack of exercise (exercise increases insulin sensitivity among other things). 4. Lack of vitamin D (potent anti-inflammatory, immune system modulator, etc.)
On December 21 2011 10:38 goose114 wrote: I just wanted to offer up a few of things that you might find interesting that I didn't see mentioned in the OP.
The videos linked in the OP, Big Fat Fiasco, were the precursor to the documentary Fat Head, which is available on Netflix and Hulu, and expands upon the research presented in the YouTube videos. There is also a blog at http://www.fathead-movie.com that is updated pretty regularly with interesting material.
I saw someone else mentioned Gary Taubes in the thread. His books are well regarded, but I haven't read them; however, I do read some of the things he publishes online at http://garytaubes.com.
Finally, this lecture by Dr. Robert Lustig goes into very in-depth and well-researched detail about the damage caused by sugar.
Paleo for those with diseases, the athletes, and the healthy
As stated before, Paleo is a QUALITY OF FOODS diet. It is neither low carb or high carb; it can be either depending on what the health issues someone is having and/or the activities that they under take.
The plant to animal ratios of our ancesters and studies on hunter gatherers suggest "the animal-derived calorie percentage ranges from 25% in the Gwi people of southern Africa, to 99% in Alaskan Nunamiut. [...] The mean diet among modern hunter-gatherer societies is estimated to consist of 64–68% of animal calories and 32–36% of plant calories."
In general, low carbohydrate or ketogenis type diets tend to very strongly influence weight loss and improve various diseases. They also have a strong neuroprotective effect because ketone bodies can be used as energy in the brain in the absence of glucose because of systemic insulin resistance.
1. In regards to obesity/overweight to get the quickest/best results, it is recommended to go on a lower carbohydrate diet (typically <125g of carbohydrates from any source) per day and get the rest of calories from protein, animal fats, or coconut/avocadoes/nuts.
2. In regards to athletes, the carbohydrate level can be increased through greater consumption of dietary carbohydrates in fruits, vegetables.
3. In regards to healthy living in otherwise disease free individuals -- low or no carbohydrate diets are not recommended. This is covered in depth with analysis in this post if you want to know the reasons why.
Typical hunter gatherer carbohydrate sources ranged from about 22-40% of total energy intake. On a 2,000 calorie diet, this is 440 - 800 calories from carbs which is 110-200g of carbs a day. It's even noted in populations where if they didn't have any type of starch sources such as potatoes that even if they had meats they would say they were starving.
See this post by Kurt Harris for more details on some of the recommendations above (independently came to it seems as well).
On October 20 2011 06:44 flare8 wrote: I've got a big collection/overview of scientific studies (and some anthropology) about health and disease. Much of it is inspired by 'paleo' writers, or people close such as weston price etc. Please have a look if you're technically minded:
>> Logging your food is one of the better ways analyze the quality and quantity of your nutrition.
If you are having a hard time gaining or losing weight in particular, or poor health and looking to eat healthier then doing this is a very good idea. It doesn't matter when you eat so much as what you eat.
Woah woah woah I have to stop you at EVOLVED. Have you looked at the current state of humanity? We can't even provide the basics of food, water and shelter for our whole population. What kind of an evolution is that? We made a few gadgets and made it to the moon and all of a sudden we evolved?
You call this not flinging shit?
It's a blatant straw man and trolling attempt
I provided evidence that Paleo improves CVD, health, etc..
If you want to "argue" (although I'm still convinced it's trolling) provide some studies that show Paleo is harming people's health. It's that simple, right? Pubmed and google scholar should provide you some evidence pretty easily if what you are claiming is true. You claim it, get some evidence to back it up.
If you cannot provide any studies then STFU and GTFO and don't come back.
Last edit: 2012-02-09 10:02:44
Overcoming Gravity: A Systematic Approach to Gymnastics and Bodyweight Strength
Twisted Netherlands. February 09 2012 10:30. Posts 11896
On February 09 2012 06:48 Slithe wrote: This debate is a waste of time and space. This thread is to help out people who are interested in the Paleo Diet. ElizarTringov, if you want to talk about vegan diets, you should go to the existing Vegan Threads or perhaps create your own thread.
I find the Paleo diet is a danger to peoples health. I guess I should stand by on the sidelines and let them suffer health problems?
Ah yes, the paleo studies show that it's dangerous for your health.... oh wait..... there are none that show Paleo is bad for your health.
On September 06 2011 00:48 eshlow wrote: Why Paleo?
The nutritional guidelines that many people from the previous TL Health and Fitness thread recommend is the Paleolithic diet.
Despite what you may have heard about the Paleo diet, it is neither low carbohydrate or high carbohydrate. It can be either depending on how many carbohydrates you eat from fruits and vegetables.
Instead, the Paleo diet focuses specifically on inclusion of high quality and nutrient rich foods upon which we evolved: fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds, meat, birds, fish, eggs.
Dairy, grains, and legumes are excluded specifically because of potential detrimental aspects that these foods may on our gastroinstestinal system and subsequently the rest of our organ systems by proxy.
As an aside my personal opinion is that dairy is fine as long as you are not lactose intolerant.
Grains and legumes are touted by the government as healthy even though there is little evidence supporting these statements especially regarding fiber and nutrients as fruits and vegetables provide more of each and are healthier. Many people have heard of Celiac's disease which is characterized by chronic inflammation of the intestinal tract due to gluten, a protein in wheat and many other grains.
It was thought that in the absence of Celiac's there seemed to be little evidence to the detrimental effect of grains. However, that is changing as recent research into suggests that gluten sensitivity may exist in upwards of 2/3rds of the population. Another. In particular, gliadin protein seems to specifically stimulate the immune system to produce antibodies against transglutaminase which is a protein in all cells within the body.
Thus, grains may contribute to the pathogenesis of many of the so-called disease of civilizations which include:
1. neurodegenerative diseases such as Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, and the severity of Huntington's 2. Cardiovascular disease which includes heart disease, atherosclerosis, peripheral vascular disease, stroke 3. Pulmonary disease asthma, COPD, etc. 4. Metabolic disease which includes diabetes 1 and 2, metabolic syndrome, osteoporosis 5. Gastrointestinal disease such as Celiac's, Crohn's, IBS, Colitis, etc. 6. Organ issues such as kidney, liver, etc. 7. Autoimmune such as rheumatoid arthritis, multiple sclerosis, ALS, SLE, dermatitis, etc. 8. And others such as cancer, depression, obesity, acne, etc.
Doc who "cured" her 2nd degree multiple sclerosis: + Show Spoiler +
There are several other factors involved in the pathogenesis of many of these diseases that can be obtained from diet besides (1) gluten/grains such as (2) excessive amounts of carbohydrates especially fructose, (3) excessive intake of omega 6 oils throwing off O6:O3 balance, and (4) trans fats.
These 4 dietary factors comprise most of the problems with the modern diet.
Additionally, there are other factors to consider beyond diet:
1. High stress all the time. Stress increases insulin resistance, and production of cortisol (which decreases inflammation in short term but chronically there's a lot of negatives). 2. Lack of sleep. Increases insulin resistance, and inflammation. 3. Lack of exercise (exercise increases insulin sensitivity among other things). 4. Lack of vitamin D (potent anti-inflammatory, immune system modulator, etc.)
On December 21 2011 10:38 goose114 wrote: I just wanted to offer up a few of things that you might find interesting that I didn't see mentioned in the OP.
The videos linked in the OP, Big Fat Fiasco, were the precursor to the documentary Fat Head, which is available on Netflix and Hulu, and expands upon the research presented in the YouTube videos. There is also a blog at http://www.fathead-movie.com that is updated pretty regularly with interesting material.
I saw someone else mentioned Gary Taubes in the thread. His books are well regarded, but I haven't read them; however, I do read some of the things he publishes online at http://garytaubes.com.
Finally, this lecture by Dr. Robert Lustig goes into very in-depth and well-researched detail about the damage caused by sugar.
Paleo for those with diseases, the athletes, and the healthy
As stated before, Paleo is a QUALITY OF FOODS diet. It is neither low carb or high carb; it can be either depending on what the health issues someone is having and/or the activities that they under take.
The plant to animal ratios of our ancesters and studies on hunter gatherers suggest "the animal-derived calorie percentage ranges from 25% in the Gwi people of southern Africa, to 99% in Alaskan Nunamiut. [...] The mean diet among modern hunter-gatherer societies is estimated to consist of 64–68% of animal calories and 32–36% of plant calories."
In general, low carbohydrate or ketogenis type diets tend to very strongly influence weight loss and improve various diseases. They also have a strong neuroprotective effect because ketone bodies can be used as energy in the brain in the absence of glucose because of systemic insulin resistance.
1. In regards to obesity/overweight to get the quickest/best results, it is recommended to go on a lower carbohydrate diet (typically <125g of carbohydrates from any source) per day and get the rest of calories from protein, animal fats, or coconut/avocadoes/nuts.
2. In regards to athletes, the carbohydrate level can be increased through greater consumption of dietary carbohydrates in fruits, vegetables.
3. In regards to healthy living in otherwise disease free individuals -- low or no carbohydrate diets are not recommended. This is covered in depth with analysis in this post if you want to know the reasons why.
Typical hunter gatherer carbohydrate sources ranged from about 22-40% of total energy intake. On a 2,000 calorie diet, this is 440 - 800 calories from carbs which is 110-200g of carbs a day. It's even noted in populations where if they didn't have any type of starch sources such as potatoes that even if they had meats they would say they were starving.
See this post by Kurt Harris for more details on some of the recommendations above (independently came to it seems as well).
On October 20 2011 06:44 flare8 wrote: I've got a big collection/overview of scientific studies (and some anthropology) about health and disease. Much of it is inspired by 'paleo' writers, or people close such as weston price etc. Please have a look if you're technically minded:
>> Logging your food is one of the better ways analyze the quality and quantity of your nutrition.
If you are having a hard time gaining or losing weight in particular, or poor health and looking to eat healthier then doing this is a very good idea. It doesn't matter when you eat so much as what you eat.
Woah woah woah I have to stop you at EVOLVED. Have you looked at the current state of humanity? We can't even provide the basics of food, water and shelter for our whole population. What kind of an evolution is that? We made a few gadgets and made it to the moon and all of a sudden we evolved?
You call this not flinging shit?
It's a blatant straw man and trolling attempt
I provided evidence that Paleo improves CVD, health, etc..
If you want to "argue" (although I'm still convinced it's trolling) provide some studies that show Paleo is harming people's health. It's that simple, right? Pubmed and google scholar should provide you some evidence pretty easily if what you are claiming is true. You claim it, get some evidence to back it up.
If you cannot provide any studies then STFU and GTFO and don't come back.
I provided the link to part 1 of a series of 73 videos that debunks Paleo diet in 1 of my posts.
Last edit: 2012-02-09 12:39:45
Perfect practice makes perfect.
eshlow United States. February 09 2012 12:45. Posts 5004
On February 09 2012 06:48 Slithe wrote: This debate is a waste of time and space. This thread is to help out people who are interested in the Paleo Diet. ElizarTringov, if you want to talk about vegan diets, you should go to the existing Vegan Threads or perhaps create your own thread.
I find the Paleo diet is a danger to peoples health. I guess I should stand by on the sidelines and let them suffer health problems?
Ah yes, the paleo studies show that it's dangerous for your health.... oh wait..... there are none that show Paleo is bad for your health.
On September 06 2011 00:48 eshlow wrote: Why Paleo?
The nutritional guidelines that many people from the previous TL Health and Fitness thread recommend is the Paleolithic diet.
Despite what you may have heard about the Paleo diet, it is neither low carbohydrate or high carbohydrate. It can be either depending on how many carbohydrates you eat from fruits and vegetables.
Instead, the Paleo diet focuses specifically on inclusion of high quality and nutrient rich foods upon which we evolved: fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds, meat, birds, fish, eggs.
Dairy, grains, and legumes are excluded specifically because of potential detrimental aspects that these foods may on our gastroinstestinal system and subsequently the rest of our organ systems by proxy.
As an aside my personal opinion is that dairy is fine as long as you are not lactose intolerant.
Grains and legumes are touted by the government as healthy even though there is little evidence supporting these statements especially regarding fiber and nutrients as fruits and vegetables provide more of each and are healthier. Many people have heard of Celiac's disease which is characterized by chronic inflammation of the intestinal tract due to gluten, a protein in wheat and many other grains.
It was thought that in the absence of Celiac's there seemed to be little evidence to the detrimental effect of grains. However, that is changing as recent research into suggests that gluten sensitivity may exist in upwards of 2/3rds of the population. Another. In particular, gliadin protein seems to specifically stimulate the immune system to produce antibodies against transglutaminase which is a protein in all cells within the body.
Thus, grains may contribute to the pathogenesis of many of the so-called disease of civilizations which include:
1. neurodegenerative diseases such as Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, and the severity of Huntington's 2. Cardiovascular disease which includes heart disease, atherosclerosis, peripheral vascular disease, stroke 3. Pulmonary disease asthma, COPD, etc. 4. Metabolic disease which includes diabetes 1 and 2, metabolic syndrome, osteoporosis 5. Gastrointestinal disease such as Celiac's, Crohn's, IBS, Colitis, etc. 6. Organ issues such as kidney, liver, etc. 7. Autoimmune such as rheumatoid arthritis, multiple sclerosis, ALS, SLE, dermatitis, etc. 8. And others such as cancer, depression, obesity, acne, etc.
Doc who "cured" her 2nd degree multiple sclerosis: + Show Spoiler +
There are several other factors involved in the pathogenesis of many of these diseases that can be obtained from diet besides (1) gluten/grains such as (2) excessive amounts of carbohydrates especially fructose, (3) excessive intake of omega 6 oils throwing off O6:O3 balance, and (4) trans fats.
These 4 dietary factors comprise most of the problems with the modern diet.
Additionally, there are other factors to consider beyond diet:
1. High stress all the time. Stress increases insulin resistance, and production of cortisol (which decreases inflammation in short term but chronically there's a lot of negatives). 2. Lack of sleep. Increases insulin resistance, and inflammation. 3. Lack of exercise (exercise increases insulin sensitivity among other things). 4. Lack of vitamin D (potent anti-inflammatory, immune system modulator, etc.)
On December 21 2011 10:38 goose114 wrote: I just wanted to offer up a few of things that you might find interesting that I didn't see mentioned in the OP.
The videos linked in the OP, Big Fat Fiasco, were the precursor to the documentary Fat Head, which is available on Netflix and Hulu, and expands upon the research presented in the YouTube videos. There is also a blog at http://www.fathead-movie.com that is updated pretty regularly with interesting material.
I saw someone else mentioned Gary Taubes in the thread. His books are well regarded, but I haven't read them; however, I do read some of the things he publishes online at http://garytaubes.com.
Finally, this lecture by Dr. Robert Lustig goes into very in-depth and well-researched detail about the damage caused by sugar.
Paleo for those with diseases, the athletes, and the healthy
As stated before, Paleo is a QUALITY OF FOODS diet. It is neither low carb or high carb; it can be either depending on what the health issues someone is having and/or the activities that they under take.
The plant to animal ratios of our ancesters and studies on hunter gatherers suggest "the animal-derived calorie percentage ranges from 25% in the Gwi people of southern Africa, to 99% in Alaskan Nunamiut. [...] The mean diet among modern hunter-gatherer societies is estimated to consist of 64–68% of animal calories and 32–36% of plant calories."
In general, low carbohydrate or ketogenis type diets tend to very strongly influence weight loss and improve various diseases. They also have a strong neuroprotective effect because ketone bodies can be used as energy in the brain in the absence of glucose because of systemic insulin resistance.
1. In regards to obesity/overweight to get the quickest/best results, it is recommended to go on a lower carbohydrate diet (typically <125g of carbohydrates from any source) per day and get the rest of calories from protein, animal fats, or coconut/avocadoes/nuts.
2. In regards to athletes, the carbohydrate level can be increased through greater consumption of dietary carbohydrates in fruits, vegetables.
3. In regards to healthy living in otherwise disease free individuals -- low or no carbohydrate diets are not recommended. This is covered in depth with analysis in this post if you want to know the reasons why.
Typical hunter gatherer carbohydrate sources ranged from about 22-40% of total energy intake. On a 2,000 calorie diet, this is 440 - 800 calories from carbs which is 110-200g of carbs a day. It's even noted in populations where if they didn't have any type of starch sources such as potatoes that even if they had meats they would say they were starving.
See this post by Kurt Harris for more details on some of the recommendations above (independently came to it seems as well).
On October 20 2011 06:44 flare8 wrote: I've got a big collection/overview of scientific studies (and some anthropology) about health and disease. Much of it is inspired by 'paleo' writers, or people close such as weston price etc. Please have a look if you're technically minded:
>> Logging your food is one of the better ways analyze the quality and quantity of your nutrition.
If you are having a hard time gaining or losing weight in particular, or poor health and looking to eat healthier then doing this is a very good idea. It doesn't matter when you eat so much as what you eat.
Woah woah woah I have to stop you at EVOLVED. Have you looked at the current state of humanity? We can't even provide the basics of food, water and shelter for our whole population. What kind of an evolution is that? We made a few gadgets and made it to the moon and all of a sudden we evolved?
You call this not flinging shit?
It's a blatant straw man and trolling attempt
I provided evidence that Paleo improves CVD, health, etc..
If you want to "argue" (although I'm still convinced it's trolling) provide some studies that show Paleo is harming people's health. It's that simple, right? Pubmed and google scholar should provide you some evidence pretty easily if what you are claiming is true. You claim it, get some evidence to back it up.
If you cannot provide any studies then STFU and GTFO and don't come back.
I provided the link to part 1 of a series of 73 videos that debunks Paleo diet in 1 of my posts.
Then I'm sure you can get the studies they cite and put them in this thread.
I'll be waiting.
Overcoming Gravity: A Systematic Approach to Gymnastics and Bodyweight Strength
AoN.DimSum United States. February 09 2012 12:46. Posts 2806
All part 1 did was attack the credentials of some of the paleo supporters....I didn't bother watching the rest...
by my idol krokkis : "U better hope Finland wont have WCG next year and that I wont gain shitloads of skill, cause then I will wash ur mouth with soap, little man."
ElizarTringov Bulgaria. February 09 2012 13:07. Posts 186
On February 09 2012 06:48 Slithe wrote: This debate is a waste of time and space. This thread is to help out people who are interested in the Paleo Diet. ElizarTringov, if you want to talk about vegan diets, you should go to the existing Vegan Threads or perhaps create your own thread.
I find the Paleo diet is a danger to peoples health. I guess I should stand by on the sidelines and let them suffer health problems?
Ah yes, the paleo studies show that it's dangerous for your health.... oh wait..... there are none that show Paleo is bad for your health.
On September 06 2011 00:48 eshlow wrote: Why Paleo?
The nutritional guidelines that many people from the previous TL Health and Fitness thread recommend is the Paleolithic diet.
Despite what you may have heard about the Paleo diet, it is neither low carbohydrate or high carbohydrate. It can be either depending on how many carbohydrates you eat from fruits and vegetables.
Instead, the Paleo diet focuses specifically on inclusion of high quality and nutrient rich foods upon which we evolved: fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds, meat, birds, fish, eggs.
Dairy, grains, and legumes are excluded specifically because of potential detrimental aspects that these foods may on our gastroinstestinal system and subsequently the rest of our organ systems by proxy.
As an aside my personal opinion is that dairy is fine as long as you are not lactose intolerant.
Grains and legumes are touted by the government as healthy even though there is little evidence supporting these statements especially regarding fiber and nutrients as fruits and vegetables provide more of each and are healthier. Many people have heard of Celiac's disease which is characterized by chronic inflammation of the intestinal tract due to gluten, a protein in wheat and many other grains.
It was thought that in the absence of Celiac's there seemed to be little evidence to the detrimental effect of grains. However, that is changing as recent research into suggests that gluten sensitivity may exist in upwards of 2/3rds of the population. Another. In particular, gliadin protein seems to specifically stimulate the immune system to produce antibodies against transglutaminase which is a protein in all cells within the body.
Thus, grains may contribute to the pathogenesis of many of the so-called disease of civilizations which include:
1. neurodegenerative diseases such as Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, and the severity of Huntington's 2. Cardiovascular disease which includes heart disease, atherosclerosis, peripheral vascular disease, stroke 3. Pulmonary disease asthma, COPD, etc. 4. Metabolic disease which includes diabetes 1 and 2, metabolic syndrome, osteoporosis 5. Gastrointestinal disease such as Celiac's, Crohn's, IBS, Colitis, etc. 6. Organ issues such as kidney, liver, etc. 7. Autoimmune such as rheumatoid arthritis, multiple sclerosis, ALS, SLE, dermatitis, etc. 8. And others such as cancer, depression, obesity, acne, etc.
Doc who "cured" her 2nd degree multiple sclerosis: + Show Spoiler +
There are several other factors involved in the pathogenesis of many of these diseases that can be obtained from diet besides (1) gluten/grains such as (2) excessive amounts of carbohydrates especially fructose, (3) excessive intake of omega 6 oils throwing off O6:O3 balance, and (4) trans fats.
These 4 dietary factors comprise most of the problems with the modern diet.
Additionally, there are other factors to consider beyond diet:
1. High stress all the time. Stress increases insulin resistance, and production of cortisol (which decreases inflammation in short term but chronically there's a lot of negatives). 2. Lack of sleep. Increases insulin resistance, and inflammation. 3. Lack of exercise (exercise increases insulin sensitivity among other things). 4. Lack of vitamin D (potent anti-inflammatory, immune system modulator, etc.)
On December 21 2011 10:38 goose114 wrote: I just wanted to offer up a few of things that you might find interesting that I didn't see mentioned in the OP.
The videos linked in the OP, Big Fat Fiasco, were the precursor to the documentary Fat Head, which is available on Netflix and Hulu, and expands upon the research presented in the YouTube videos. There is also a blog at http://www.fathead-movie.com that is updated pretty regularly with interesting material.
I saw someone else mentioned Gary Taubes in the thread. His books are well regarded, but I haven't read them; however, I do read some of the things he publishes online at http://garytaubes.com.
Finally, this lecture by Dr. Robert Lustig goes into very in-depth and well-researched detail about the damage caused by sugar.
Paleo for those with diseases, the athletes, and the healthy
As stated before, Paleo is a QUALITY OF FOODS diet. It is neither low carb or high carb; it can be either depending on what the health issues someone is having and/or the activities that they under take.
The plant to animal ratios of our ancesters and studies on hunter gatherers suggest "the animal-derived calorie percentage ranges from 25% in the Gwi people of southern Africa, to 99% in Alaskan Nunamiut. [...] The mean diet among modern hunter-gatherer societies is estimated to consist of 64–68% of animal calories and 32–36% of plant calories."
In general, low carbohydrate or ketogenis type diets tend to very strongly influence weight loss and improve various diseases. They also have a strong neuroprotective effect because ketone bodies can be used as energy in the brain in the absence of glucose because of systemic insulin resistance.
1. In regards to obesity/overweight to get the quickest/best results, it is recommended to go on a lower carbohydrate diet (typically <125g of carbohydrates from any source) per day and get the rest of calories from protein, animal fats, or coconut/avocadoes/nuts.
2. In regards to athletes, the carbohydrate level can be increased through greater consumption of dietary carbohydrates in fruits, vegetables.
3. In regards to healthy living in otherwise disease free individuals -- low or no carbohydrate diets are not recommended. This is covered in depth with analysis in this post if you want to know the reasons why.
Typical hunter gatherer carbohydrate sources ranged from about 22-40% of total energy intake. On a 2,000 calorie diet, this is 440 - 800 calories from carbs which is 110-200g of carbs a day. It's even noted in populations where if they didn't have any type of starch sources such as potatoes that even if they had meats they would say they were starving.
See this post by Kurt Harris for more details on some of the recommendations above (independently came to it seems as well).
On October 20 2011 06:44 flare8 wrote: I've got a big collection/overview of scientific studies (and some anthropology) about health and disease. Much of it is inspired by 'paleo' writers, or people close such as weston price etc. Please have a look if you're technically minded:
>> Logging your food is one of the better ways analyze the quality and quantity of your nutrition.
If you are having a hard time gaining or losing weight in particular, or poor health and looking to eat healthier then doing this is a very good idea. It doesn't matter when you eat so much as what you eat.
Woah woah woah I have to stop you at EVOLVED. Have you looked at the current state of humanity? We can't even provide the basics of food, water and shelter for our whole population. What kind of an evolution is that? We made a few gadgets and made it to the moon and all of a sudden we evolved?
You call this not flinging shit?
It's a blatant straw man and trolling attempt
I provided evidence that Paleo improves CVD, health, etc..
If you want to "argue" (although I'm still convinced it's trolling) provide some studies that show Paleo is harming people's health. It's that simple, right? Pubmed and google scholar should provide you some evidence pretty easily if what you are claiming is true. You claim it, get some evidence to back it up.
If you cannot provide any studies then STFU and GTFO and don't come back.
I provided the link to part 1 of a series of 73 videos that debunks Paleo diet in 1 of my posts.
Then I'm sure you can get the studies they cite and put them in this thread.
I'll be waiting.
I am sure you can click the link and watch the videos yourself, I'll be waiting.
User was warned for this post
Perfect practice makes perfect.
Slithe United States. February 09 2012 16:29. Posts 948
On February 09 2012 06:48 Slithe wrote: This debate is a waste of time and space. This thread is to help out people who are interested in the Paleo Diet. ElizarTringov, if you want to talk about vegan diets, you should go to the existing Vegan Threads or perhaps create your own thread.
I find the Paleo diet is a danger to peoples health. I guess I should stand by on the sidelines and let them suffer health problems?
Ah yes, the paleo studies show that it's dangerous for your health.... oh wait..... there are none that show Paleo is bad for your health.
On September 06 2011 00:48 eshlow wrote: Why Paleo?
The nutritional guidelines that many people from the previous TL Health and Fitness thread recommend is the Paleolithic diet.
Despite what you may have heard about the Paleo diet, it is neither low carbohydrate or high carbohydrate. It can be either depending on how many carbohydrates you eat from fruits and vegetables.
Instead, the Paleo diet focuses specifically on inclusion of high quality and nutrient rich foods upon which we evolved: fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds, meat, birds, fish, eggs.
Dairy, grains, and legumes are excluded specifically because of potential detrimental aspects that these foods may on our gastroinstestinal system and subsequently the rest of our organ systems by proxy.
As an aside my personal opinion is that dairy is fine as long as you are not lactose intolerant.
Grains and legumes are touted by the government as healthy even though there is little evidence supporting these statements especially regarding fiber and nutrients as fruits and vegetables provide more of each and are healthier. Many people have heard of Celiac's disease which is characterized by chronic inflammation of the intestinal tract due to gluten, a protein in wheat and many other grains.
It was thought that in the absence of Celiac's there seemed to be little evidence to the detrimental effect of grains. However, that is changing as recent research into suggests that gluten sensitivity may exist in upwards of 2/3rds of the population. Another. In particular, gliadin protein seems to specifically stimulate the immune system to produce antibodies against transglutaminase which is a protein in all cells within the body.
Thus, grains may contribute to the pathogenesis of many of the so-called disease of civilizations which include:
1. neurodegenerative diseases such as Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, and the severity of Huntington's 2. Cardiovascular disease which includes heart disease, atherosclerosis, peripheral vascular disease, stroke 3. Pulmonary disease asthma, COPD, etc. 4. Metabolic disease which includes diabetes 1 and 2, metabolic syndrome, osteoporosis 5. Gastrointestinal disease such as Celiac's, Crohn's, IBS, Colitis, etc. 6. Organ issues such as kidney, liver, etc. 7. Autoimmune such as rheumatoid arthritis, multiple sclerosis, ALS, SLE, dermatitis, etc. 8. And others such as cancer, depression, obesity, acne, etc.
Doc who "cured" her 2nd degree multiple sclerosis: + Show Spoiler +
There are several other factors involved in the pathogenesis of many of these diseases that can be obtained from diet besides (1) gluten/grains such as (2) excessive amounts of carbohydrates especially fructose, (3) excessive intake of omega 6 oils throwing off O6:O3 balance, and (4) trans fats.
These 4 dietary factors comprise most of the problems with the modern diet.
Additionally, there are other factors to consider beyond diet:
1. High stress all the time. Stress increases insulin resistance, and production of cortisol (which decreases inflammation in short term but chronically there's a lot of negatives). 2. Lack of sleep. Increases insulin resistance, and inflammation. 3. Lack of exercise (exercise increases insulin sensitivity among other things). 4. Lack of vitamin D (potent anti-inflammatory, immune system modulator, etc.)
On December 21 2011 10:38 goose114 wrote: I just wanted to offer up a few of things that you might find interesting that I didn't see mentioned in the OP.
The videos linked in the OP, Big Fat Fiasco, were the precursor to the documentary Fat Head, which is available on Netflix and Hulu, and expands upon the research presented in the YouTube videos. There is also a blog at http://www.fathead-movie.com that is updated pretty regularly with interesting material.
I saw someone else mentioned Gary Taubes in the thread. His books are well regarded, but I haven't read them; however, I do read some of the things he publishes online at http://garytaubes.com.
Finally, this lecture by Dr. Robert Lustig goes into very in-depth and well-researched detail about the damage caused by sugar.
Paleo for those with diseases, the athletes, and the healthy
As stated before, Paleo is a QUALITY OF FOODS diet. It is neither low carb or high carb; it can be either depending on what the health issues someone is having and/or the activities that they under take.
The plant to animal ratios of our ancesters and studies on hunter gatherers suggest "the animal-derived calorie percentage ranges from 25% in the Gwi people of southern Africa, to 99% in Alaskan Nunamiut. [...] The mean diet among modern hunter-gatherer societies is estimated to consist of 64–68% of animal calories and 32–36% of plant calories."
In general, low carbohydrate or ketogenis type diets tend to very strongly influence weight loss and improve various diseases. They also have a strong neuroprotective effect because ketone bodies can be used as energy in the brain in the absence of glucose because of systemic insulin resistance.
1. In regards to obesity/overweight to get the quickest/best results, it is recommended to go on a lower carbohydrate diet (typically <125g of carbohydrates from any source) per day and get the rest of calories from protein, animal fats, or coconut/avocadoes/nuts.
2. In regards to athletes, the carbohydrate level can be increased through greater consumption of dietary carbohydrates in fruits, vegetables.
3. In regards to healthy living in otherwise disease free individuals -- low or no carbohydrate diets are not recommended. This is covered in depth with analysis in this post if you want to know the reasons why.
Typical hunter gatherer carbohydrate sources ranged from about 22-40% of total energy intake. On a 2,000 calorie diet, this is 440 - 800 calories from carbs which is 110-200g of carbs a day. It's even noted in populations where if they didn't have any type of starch sources such as potatoes that even if they had meats they would say they were starving.
See this post by Kurt Harris for more details on some of the recommendations above (independently came to it seems as well).
On October 20 2011 06:44 flare8 wrote: I've got a big collection/overview of scientific studies (and some anthropology) about health and disease. Much of it is inspired by 'paleo' writers, or people close such as weston price etc. Please have a look if you're technically minded:
>> Logging your food is one of the better ways analyze the quality and quantity of your nutrition.
If you are having a hard time gaining or losing weight in particular, or poor health and looking to eat healthier then doing this is a very good idea. It doesn't matter when you eat so much as what you eat.
Woah woah woah I have to stop you at EVOLVED. Have you looked at the current state of humanity? We can't even provide the basics of food, water and shelter for our whole population. What kind of an evolution is that? We made a few gadgets and made it to the moon and all of a sudden we evolved?
You call this not flinging shit?
It's a blatant straw man and trolling attempt
I provided evidence that Paleo improves CVD, health, etc..
If you want to "argue" (although I'm still convinced it's trolling) provide some studies that show Paleo is harming people's health. It's that simple, right? Pubmed and google scholar should provide you some evidence pretty easily if what you are claiming is true. You claim it, get some evidence to back it up.
If you cannot provide any studies then STFU and GTFO and don't come back.
I provided the link to part 1 of a series of 73 videos that debunks Paleo diet in 1 of my posts.
Then I'm sure you can get the studies they cite and put them in this thread.
I'll be waiting.
I am sure you can click the link and watch the videos yourself, I'll be waiting.
Dude there's 73 fucking videos, each like 10 minutes long. Who's going to go out of their way to comb through them and find all the studies to help YOU prove your point?
You come under the guise of wanting to help people improve their diets, but you're actually just a pretentious douchebag. Fuck Off.
billy5000 United States. February 09 2012 17:36. Posts 610
On February 09 2012 06:48 Slithe wrote: This debate is a waste of time and space. This thread is to help out people who are interested in the Paleo Diet. ElizarTringov, if you want to talk about vegan diets, you should go to the existing Vegan Threads or perhaps create your own thread.
I find the Paleo diet is a danger to peoples health. I guess I should stand by on the sidelines and let them suffer health problems?
Ah yes, the paleo studies show that it's dangerous for your health.... oh wait..... there are none that show Paleo is bad for your health.
On September 06 2011 00:48 eshlow wrote: Why Paleo?
The nutritional guidelines that many people from the previous TL Health and Fitness thread recommend is the Paleolithic diet.
Despite what you may have heard about the Paleo diet, it is neither low carbohydrate or high carbohydrate. It can be either depending on how many carbohydrates you eat from fruits and vegetables.
Instead, the Paleo diet focuses specifically on inclusion of high quality and nutrient rich foods upon which we evolved: fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds, meat, birds, fish, eggs.
Dairy, grains, and legumes are excluded specifically because of potential detrimental aspects that these foods may on our gastroinstestinal system and subsequently the rest of our organ systems by proxy.
As an aside my personal opinion is that dairy is fine as long as you are not lactose intolerant.
Grains and legumes are touted by the government as healthy even though there is little evidence supporting these statements especially regarding fiber and nutrients as fruits and vegetables provide more of each and are healthier. Many people have heard of Celiac's disease which is characterized by chronic inflammation of the intestinal tract due to gluten, a protein in wheat and many other grains.
It was thought that in the absence of Celiac's there seemed to be little evidence to the detrimental effect of grains. However, that is changing as recent research into suggests that gluten sensitivity may exist in upwards of 2/3rds of the population. Another. In particular, gliadin protein seems to specifically stimulate the immune system to produce antibodies against transglutaminase which is a protein in all cells within the body.
Thus, grains may contribute to the pathogenesis of many of the so-called disease of civilizations which include:
1. neurodegenerative diseases such as Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, and the severity of Huntington's 2. Cardiovascular disease which includes heart disease, atherosclerosis, peripheral vascular disease, stroke 3. Pulmonary disease asthma, COPD, etc. 4. Metabolic disease which includes diabetes 1 and 2, metabolic syndrome, osteoporosis 5. Gastrointestinal disease such as Celiac's, Crohn's, IBS, Colitis, etc. 6. Organ issues such as kidney, liver, etc. 7. Autoimmune such as rheumatoid arthritis, multiple sclerosis, ALS, SLE, dermatitis, etc. 8. And others such as cancer, depression, obesity, acne, etc.
Doc who "cured" her 2nd degree multiple sclerosis: + Show Spoiler +
There are several other factors involved in the pathogenesis of many of these diseases that can be obtained from diet besides (1) gluten/grains such as (2) excessive amounts of carbohydrates especially fructose, (3) excessive intake of omega 6 oils throwing off O6:O3 balance, and (4) trans fats.
These 4 dietary factors comprise most of the problems with the modern diet.
Additionally, there are other factors to consider beyond diet:
1. High stress all the time. Stress increases insulin resistance, and production of cortisol (which decreases inflammation in short term but chronically there's a lot of negatives). 2. Lack of sleep. Increases insulin resistance, and inflammation. 3. Lack of exercise (exercise increases insulin sensitivity among other things). 4. Lack of vitamin D (potent anti-inflammatory, immune system modulator, etc.)
On December 21 2011 10:38 goose114 wrote: I just wanted to offer up a few of things that you might find interesting that I didn't see mentioned in the OP.
The videos linked in the OP, Big Fat Fiasco, were the precursor to the documentary Fat Head, which is available on Netflix and Hulu, and expands upon the research presented in the YouTube videos. There is also a blog at http://www.fathead-movie.com that is updated pretty regularly with interesting material.
I saw someone else mentioned Gary Taubes in the thread. His books are well regarded, but I haven't read them; however, I do read some of the things he publishes online at http://garytaubes.com.
Finally, this lecture by Dr. Robert Lustig goes into very in-depth and well-researched detail about the damage caused by sugar.
Paleo for those with diseases, the athletes, and the healthy
As stated before, Paleo is a QUALITY OF FOODS diet. It is neither low carb or high carb; it can be either depending on what the health issues someone is having and/or the activities that they under take.
The plant to animal ratios of our ancesters and studies on hunter gatherers suggest "the animal-derived calorie percentage ranges from 25% in the Gwi people of southern Africa, to 99% in Alaskan Nunamiut. [...] The mean diet among modern hunter-gatherer societies is estimated to consist of 64–68% of animal calories and 32–36% of plant calories."
In general, low carbohydrate or ketogenis type diets tend to very strongly influence weight loss and improve various diseases. They also have a strong neuroprotective effect because ketone bodies can be used as energy in the brain in the absence of glucose because of systemic insulin resistance.
1. In regards to obesity/overweight to get the quickest/best results, it is recommended to go on a lower carbohydrate diet (typically <125g of carbohydrates from any source) per day and get the rest of calories from protein, animal fats, or coconut/avocadoes/nuts.
2. In regards to athletes, the carbohydrate level can be increased through greater consumption of dietary carbohydrates in fruits, vegetables.
3. In regards to healthy living in otherwise disease free individuals -- low or no carbohydrate diets are not recommended. This is covered in depth with analysis in this post if you want to know the reasons why.
Typical hunter gatherer carbohydrate sources ranged from about 22-40% of total energy intake. On a 2,000 calorie diet, this is 440 - 800 calories from carbs which is 110-200g of carbs a day. It's even noted in populations where if they didn't have any type of starch sources such as potatoes that even if they had meats they would say they were starving.
See this post by Kurt Harris for more details on some of the recommendations above (independently came to it seems as well).
On October 20 2011 06:44 flare8 wrote: I've got a big collection/overview of scientific studies (and some anthropology) about health and disease. Much of it is inspired by 'paleo' writers, or people close such as weston price etc. Please have a look if you're technically minded:
>> Logging your food is one of the better ways analyze the quality and quantity of your nutrition.
If you are having a hard time gaining or losing weight in particular, or poor health and looking to eat healthier then doing this is a very good idea. It doesn't matter when you eat so much as what you eat.
Woah woah woah I have to stop you at EVOLVED. Have you looked at the current state of humanity? We can't even provide the basics of food, water and shelter for our whole population. What kind of an evolution is that? We made a few gadgets and made it to the moon and all of a sudden we evolved?
You call this not flinging shit?
It's a blatant straw man and trolling attempt
I provided evidence that Paleo improves CVD, health, etc..
If you want to "argue" (although I'm still convinced it's trolling) provide some studies that show Paleo is harming people's health. It's that simple, right? Pubmed and google scholar should provide you some evidence pretty easily if what you are claiming is true. You claim it, get some evidence to back it up.
If you cannot provide any studies then STFU and GTFO and don't come back.
I provided the link to part 1 of a series of 73 videos that debunks Paleo diet in 1 of my posts.
Then I'm sure you can get the studies they cite and put them in this thread.
I'll be waiting.
I am sure you can click the link and watch the videos yourself, I'll be waiting.
eshlow, why even argue with this guy? This person clearly cannot make an argument as such. If he's lazy to even provide you citations of those videos - let alone if he's even watched all of them - then it obvious that he's arguing for the sake of argument. The only opinions of his are generalizations. I'm starting to wonder if he's even took the time to form an legitimate argument of his own through literature.
Paleo is a matter of choice. There's enough evidence to say that it's viable and of course healthier than the current diets of most people in the US. No one is forcing you to do anything. If it doesn't work for you, then move on.
Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly; Man got to sit and wonder, 'Why, why, why?' Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land; Man got to tell himself he understand. Vonnegut
eshlow United States. February 09 2012 21:43. Posts 5004
On February 09 2012 06:48 Slithe wrote: This debate is a waste of time and space. This thread is to help out people who are interested in the Paleo Diet. ElizarTringov, if you want to talk about vegan diets, you should go to the existing Vegan Threads or perhaps create your own thread.
I find the Paleo diet is a danger to peoples health. I guess I should stand by on the sidelines and let them suffer health problems?
Ah yes, the paleo studies show that it's dangerous for your health.... oh wait..... there are none that show Paleo is bad for your health.
On September 06 2011 00:48 eshlow wrote: Why Paleo?
The nutritional guidelines that many people from the previous TL Health and Fitness thread recommend is the Paleolithic diet.
Despite what you may have heard about the Paleo diet, it is neither low carbohydrate or high carbohydrate. It can be either depending on how many carbohydrates you eat from fruits and vegetables.
Instead, the Paleo diet focuses specifically on inclusion of high quality and nutrient rich foods upon which we evolved: fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds, meat, birds, fish, eggs.
Dairy, grains, and legumes are excluded specifically because of potential detrimental aspects that these foods may on our gastroinstestinal system and subsequently the rest of our organ systems by proxy.
As an aside my personal opinion is that dairy is fine as long as you are not lactose intolerant.
Grains and legumes are touted by the government as healthy even though there is little evidence supporting these statements especially regarding fiber and nutrients as fruits and vegetables provide more of each and are healthier. Many people have heard of Celiac's disease which is characterized by chronic inflammation of the intestinal tract due to gluten, a protein in wheat and many other grains.
It was thought that in the absence of Celiac's there seemed to be little evidence to the detrimental effect of grains. However, that is changing as recent research into suggests that gluten sensitivity may exist in upwards of 2/3rds of the population. Another. In particular, gliadin protein seems to specifically stimulate the immune system to produce antibodies against transglutaminase which is a protein in all cells within the body.
Thus, grains may contribute to the pathogenesis of many of the so-called disease of civilizations which include:
1. neurodegenerative diseases such as Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, and the severity of Huntington's 2. Cardiovascular disease which includes heart disease, atherosclerosis, peripheral vascular disease, stroke 3. Pulmonary disease asthma, COPD, etc. 4. Metabolic disease which includes diabetes 1 and 2, metabolic syndrome, osteoporosis 5. Gastrointestinal disease such as Celiac's, Crohn's, IBS, Colitis, etc. 6. Organ issues such as kidney, liver, etc. 7. Autoimmune such as rheumatoid arthritis, multiple sclerosis, ALS, SLE, dermatitis, etc. 8. And others such as cancer, depression, obesity, acne, etc.
Doc who "cured" her 2nd degree multiple sclerosis: + Show Spoiler +
There are several other factors involved in the pathogenesis of many of these diseases that can be obtained from diet besides (1) gluten/grains such as (2) excessive amounts of carbohydrates especially fructose, (3) excessive intake of omega 6 oils throwing off O6:O3 balance, and (4) trans fats.
These 4 dietary factors comprise most of the problems with the modern diet.
Additionally, there are other factors to consider beyond diet:
1. High stress all the time. Stress increases insulin resistance, and production of cortisol (which decreases inflammation in short term but chronically there's a lot of negatives). 2. Lack of sleep. Increases insulin resistance, and inflammation. 3. Lack of exercise (exercise increases insulin sensitivity among other things). 4. Lack of vitamin D (potent anti-inflammatory, immune system modulator, etc.)
On December 21 2011 10:38 goose114 wrote: I just wanted to offer up a few of things that you might find interesting that I didn't see mentioned in the OP.
The videos linked in the OP, Big Fat Fiasco, were the precursor to the documentary Fat Head, which is available on Netflix and Hulu, and expands upon the research presented in the YouTube videos. There is also a blog at http://www.fathead-movie.com that is updated pretty regularly with interesting material.
I saw someone else mentioned Gary Taubes in the thread. His books are well regarded, but I haven't read them; however, I do read some of the things he publishes online at http://garytaubes.com.
Finally, this lecture by Dr. Robert Lustig goes into very in-depth and well-researched detail about the damage caused by sugar.
Paleo for those with diseases, the athletes, and the healthy
As stated before, Paleo is a QUALITY OF FOODS diet. It is neither low carb or high carb; it can be either depending on what the health issues someone is having and/or the activities that they under take.
The plant to animal ratios of our ancesters and studies on hunter gatherers suggest "the animal-derived calorie percentage ranges from 25% in the Gwi people of southern Africa, to 99% in Alaskan Nunamiut. [...] The mean diet among modern hunter-gatherer societies is estimated to consist of 64–68% of animal calories and 32–36% of plant calories."
In general, low carbohydrate or ketogenis type diets tend to very strongly influence weight loss and improve various diseases. They also have a strong neuroprotective effect because ketone bodies can be used as energy in the brain in the absence of glucose because of systemic insulin resistance.
1. In regards to obesity/overweight to get the quickest/best results, it is recommended to go on a lower carbohydrate diet (typically <125g of carbohydrates from any source) per day and get the rest of calories from protein, animal fats, or coconut/avocadoes/nuts.
2. In regards to athletes, the carbohydrate level can be increased through greater consumption of dietary carbohydrates in fruits, vegetables.
3. In regards to healthy living in otherwise disease free individuals -- low or no carbohydrate diets are not recommended. This is covered in depth with analysis in this post if you want to know the reasons why.
Typical hunter gatherer carbohydrate sources ranged from about 22-40% of total energy intake. On a 2,000 calorie diet, this is 440 - 800 calories from carbs which is 110-200g of carbs a day. It's even noted in populations where if they didn't have any type of starch sources such as potatoes that even if they had meats they would say they were starving.
See this post by Kurt Harris for more details on some of the recommendations above (independently came to it seems as well).
On October 20 2011 06:44 flare8 wrote: I've got a big collection/overview of scientific studies (and some anthropology) about health and disease. Much of it is inspired by 'paleo' writers, or people close such as weston price etc. Please have a look if you're technically minded:
>> Logging your food is one of the better ways analyze the quality and quantity of your nutrition.
If you are having a hard time gaining or losing weight in particular, or poor health and looking to eat healthier then doing this is a very good idea. It doesn't matter when you eat so much as what you eat.
Woah woah woah I have to stop you at EVOLVED. Have you looked at the current state of humanity? We can't even provide the basics of food, water and shelter for our whole population. What kind of an evolution is that? We made a few gadgets and made it to the moon and all of a sudden we evolved?
You call this not flinging shit?
It's a blatant straw man and trolling attempt
I provided evidence that Paleo improves CVD, health, etc..
If you want to "argue" (although I'm still convinced it's trolling) provide some studies that show Paleo is harming people's health. It's that simple, right? Pubmed and google scholar should provide you some evidence pretty easily if what you are claiming is true. You claim it, get some evidence to back it up.
If you cannot provide any studies then STFU and GTFO and don't come back.
I provided the link to part 1 of a series of 73 videos that debunks Paleo diet in 1 of my posts.
Then I'm sure you can get the studies they cite and put them in this thread.
I'll be waiting.
I am sure you can click the link and watch the videos yourself, I'll be waiting.
eshlow, why even argue with this guy? This person clearly cannot make an argument as such. If he's lazy to even provide you citations of those videos - let alone if he's even watched all of them - then it obvious that he's arguing for the sake of argument. The only opinions of his are generalizations. I'm starting to wonder if he's even took the time to form an legitimate argument of his own through literature.
Paleo is a matter of choice. There's enough evidence to say that it's viable and of course healthier than the current diets of most people in the US. No one is forcing you to do anything. If it doesn't work for you, then move on.
But I wanted to give him a chance since people can be dbags and actually know stuff. But without anything of substance I would agree it's pointless.
Last time I checked, a youtube video was not a study citation, lol.
Overcoming Gravity: A Systematic Approach to Gymnastics and Bodyweight Strength
ElizarTringov Bulgaria. February 10 2012 06:16. Posts 186
On February 09 2012 06:48 Slithe wrote: This debate is a waste of time and space. This thread is to help out people who are interested in the Paleo Diet. ElizarTringov, if you want to talk about vegan diets, you should go to the existing Vegan Threads or perhaps create your own thread.
I find the Paleo diet is a danger to peoples health. I guess I should stand by on the sidelines and let them suffer health problems?
Ah yes, the paleo studies show that it's dangerous for your health.... oh wait..... there are none that show Paleo is bad for your health.
On September 06 2011 00:48 eshlow wrote: Why Paleo?
The nutritional guidelines that many people from the previous TL Health and Fitness thread recommend is the Paleolithic diet.
Despite what you may have heard about the Paleo diet, it is neither low carbohydrate or high carbohydrate. It can be either depending on how many carbohydrates you eat from fruits and vegetables.
Instead, the Paleo diet focuses specifically on inclusion of high quality and nutrient rich foods upon which we evolved: fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds, meat, birds, fish, eggs.
Dairy, grains, and legumes are excluded specifically because of potential detrimental aspects that these foods may on our gastroinstestinal system and subsequently the rest of our organ systems by proxy.
As an aside my personal opinion is that dairy is fine as long as you are not lactose intolerant.
Grains and legumes are touted by the government as healthy even though there is little evidence supporting these statements especially regarding fiber and nutrients as fruits and vegetables provide more of each and are healthier. Many people have heard of Celiac's disease which is characterized by chronic inflammation of the intestinal tract due to gluten, a protein in wheat and many other grains.
It was thought that in the absence of Celiac's there seemed to be little evidence to the detrimental effect of grains. However, that is changing as recent research into suggests that gluten sensitivity may exist in upwards of 2/3rds of the population. Another. In particular, gliadin protein seems to specifically stimulate the immune system to produce antibodies against transglutaminase which is a protein in all cells within the body.
Thus, grains may contribute to the pathogenesis of many of the so-called disease of civilizations which include:
1. neurodegenerative diseases such as Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, and the severity of Huntington's 2. Cardiovascular disease which includes heart disease, atherosclerosis, peripheral vascular disease, stroke 3. Pulmonary disease asthma, COPD, etc. 4. Metabolic disease which includes diabetes 1 and 2, metabolic syndrome, osteoporosis 5. Gastrointestinal disease such as Celiac's, Crohn's, IBS, Colitis, etc. 6. Organ issues such as kidney, liver, etc. 7. Autoimmune such as rheumatoid arthritis, multiple sclerosis, ALS, SLE, dermatitis, etc. 8. And others such as cancer, depression, obesity, acne, etc.
Doc who "cured" her 2nd degree multiple sclerosis: + Show Spoiler +
There are several other factors involved in the pathogenesis of many of these diseases that can be obtained from diet besides (1) gluten/grains such as (2) excessive amounts of carbohydrates especially fructose, (3) excessive intake of omega 6 oils throwing off O6:O3 balance, and (4) trans fats.
These 4 dietary factors comprise most of the problems with the modern diet.
Additionally, there are other factors to consider beyond diet:
1. High stress all the time. Stress increases insulin resistance, and production of cortisol (which decreases inflammation in short term but chronically there's a lot of negatives). 2. Lack of sleep. Increases insulin resistance, and inflammation. 3. Lack of exercise (exercise increases insulin sensitivity among other things). 4. Lack of vitamin D (potent anti-inflammatory, immune system modulator, etc.)
On December 21 2011 10:38 goose114 wrote: I just wanted to offer up a few of things that you might find interesting that I didn't see mentioned in the OP.
The videos linked in the OP, Big Fat Fiasco, were the precursor to the documentary Fat Head, which is available on Netflix and Hulu, and expands upon the research presented in the YouTube videos. There is also a blog at http://www.fathead-movie.com that is updated pretty regularly with interesting material.
I saw someone else mentioned Gary Taubes in the thread. His books are well regarded, but I haven't read them; however, I do read some of the things he publishes online at http://garytaubes.com.
Finally, this lecture by Dr. Robert Lustig goes into very in-depth and well-researched detail about the damage caused by sugar.
Paleo for those with diseases, the athletes, and the healthy
As stated before, Paleo is a QUALITY OF FOODS diet. It is neither low carb or high carb; it can be either depending on what the health issues someone is having and/or the activities that they under take.
The plant to animal ratios of our ancesters and studies on hunter gatherers suggest "the animal-derived calorie percentage ranges from 25% in the Gwi people of southern Africa, to 99% in Alaskan Nunamiut. [...] The mean diet among modern hunter-gatherer societies is estimated to consist of 64–68% of animal calories and 32–36% of plant calories."
In general, low carbohydrate or ketogenis type diets tend to very strongly influence weight loss and improve various diseases. They also have a strong neuroprotective effect because ketone bodies can be used as energy in the brain in the absence of glucose because of systemic insulin resistance.
1. In regards to obesity/overweight to get the quickest/best results, it is recommended to go on a lower carbohydrate diet (typically <125g of carbohydrates from any source) per day and get the rest of calories from protein, animal fats, or coconut/avocadoes/nuts.
2. In regards to athletes, the carbohydrate level can be increased through greater consumption of dietary carbohydrates in fruits, vegetables.
3. In regards to healthy living in otherwise disease free individuals -- low or no carbohydrate diets are not recommended. This is covered in depth with analysis in this post if you want to know the reasons why.
Typical hunter gatherer carbohydrate sources ranged from about 22-40% of total energy intake. On a 2,000 calorie diet, this is 440 - 800 calories from carbs which is 110-200g of carbs a day. It's even noted in populations where if they didn't have any type of starch sources such as potatoes that even if they had meats they would say they were starving.
See this post by Kurt Harris for more details on some of the recommendations above (independently came to it seems as well).
On October 20 2011 06:44 flare8 wrote: I've got a big collection/overview of scientific studies (and some anthropology) about health and disease. Much of it is inspired by 'paleo' writers, or people close such as weston price etc. Please have a look if you're technically minded:
>> Logging your food is one of the better ways analyze the quality and quantity of your nutrition.
If you are having a hard time gaining or losing weight in particular, or poor health and looking to eat healthier then doing this is a very good idea. It doesn't matter when you eat so much as what you eat.
Woah woah woah I have to stop you at EVOLVED. Have you looked at the current state of humanity? We can't even provide the basics of food, water and shelter for our whole population. What kind of an evolution is that? We made a few gadgets and made it to the moon and all of a sudden we evolved?
You call this not flinging shit?
It's a blatant straw man and trolling attempt
I provided evidence that Paleo improves CVD, health, etc..
If you want to "argue" (although I'm still convinced it's trolling) provide some studies that show Paleo is harming people's health. It's that simple, right? Pubmed and google scholar should provide you some evidence pretty easily if what you are claiming is true. You claim it, get some evidence to back it up.
If you cannot provide any studies then STFU and GTFO and don't come back.
The first study mentions "healty" nonobese sedentary individuals. What is their definition of health exactly, can a sedentary individual truly be healthy compared to one who exercises? If by health they mean that the individuals were simply disease free than that really misses the mark on health, does anyone really want to only be disease free or do they want to have abundant health and vitality? After all you could be "healthy" now but die within the next year if the only definition of health is that you have to be disease free now. It The study doesn't really say what their previous diet consisted off so I don't know what the paleolithic diet is being compared to exactly.
If you scroll down to Later Developments you will see the: In 1976, Nathan Pritikin opened a centre where patients were put on programme of diet and exercise (the Pritikin Program). This diet is high on carbohydrates and fibre, with fresh fruit, vegetables, and whole grains. A study at UCLA in 2005 showed that it brought dramatic improvement to a group of diabetics and pre-diabetics in only three weeks, so that about half no longer met the criteria for the disease.[5][6][7][8]
Unfortunately the same cannot be said for the study you posted which was conducted in 3 month period.
Considering the fact that they compare Paleo to Mediterranean-like diet then I can't really disagree since I don't think a Mediterranean that includes, oil, margarine, and low-fat dairy is really conductive to health either. This is simply a case of bad versus worse.
The study shows unfavorable changes in calcium. I also like their conclusion that control groups are needed, after all what if you compare individuals on SAD who go on a number of diets, from vegetarian(including low-fat and high fat), to vegan(including low-fat and high-fat), lacto-ovo vegetarian and any number of diets. If you are comparing Paleo to SAD then I have to agree that Paleo IS better, but the again almost any diet is better than SAD.
If you look on page 1: "These studies were supported in part by a research grant from the Institute of American Meat Packers." Am I really supposed to believe that they would fund studies that show the negative health effects of meat? Am I supposed to believe they are funding this study to help people make better decisions on what food to buy for health? I am more prone to believe they just want another selling point of meat.
Didn't bother with the article just went down to the citations. Number 6 shows: "Despite the high contribution of animal food to the total energy intake (64%), the diet was low in total fat (13%) due to the very low fat content of wild animals." http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/33/6/596.abstract Any diet that is that low in fat and has whole foods involved is bound to reap benefits, in fact the Pritikin Principle is a diet based on 10% fat at most, I already posted the results of that diet after a 3 week period in diabetics. Another thing to note was that they actually lived as hunter gatherers, they didn't just buy their meat from the store, if you look on http://cronometer.com/ 95% lean lean beef, 5% fat is actually 32.9 percent fat. The meat they hunted for and the meat most people would actually eat on a Paleo diet is apparently much different in fat content. Here is another quote from the study "A detailed analysis of food intake over 2 wk revealed a low-energy intake (1200 kcal/person/day)" I am wondering did they make a mistake here no man on the planet can consume 1200 Kcal, after all that is 1,200,000 calories. I guess they made a mistake and meant calories, but if that is what they meant it is no wonder why there are improvements, when you are eating that small amount of calories from ANY whole food source you are bound to see improvements in a number of areas.
Number 11: "In Table 1, it is shown that 85.3% of the cereals consumed in the current US diet are highly processed refined grains." So why does the Paleo diet exclude whole grains when it is highly processed grains that are the problem? Another quote from the study "Acid-base balance After digestion, absorption, and metabolism, nearly all foods release either acid or bicarbonate (base) into the systemic circulation (146, 147). As shown in Table 5, fish, meat, poultry, eggs, shellfish, cheese, milk, and cereal grains are net acid producing, whereas fresh fruit, vegetables, tubers, roots, and nuts are net base producing." "Virtually all preagricultural diets were net base yielding because of the absence of cereals and energy-dense, nutrient-poor foods—foods that were introduced during the Neolithic and Industrial Eras and that displaced base-yielding fruit and vegetables (147). Consequently, a net base-producing diet was the norm throughout most of hominin evolution (147). The known health benefits of a net base-yielding diet include preventing and treating osteoporosis (150, 151), age-related muscle wasting (152), calcium kidney stones (153, 154), hypertension (155, 156), and exercise-induced asthma (157) and slow the progression of age- and disease-related chronic renal insufficiency (158)." So if we want to eat a net-base producing diet shouldn't we be eating fruit, vegetables, tubers, roots and nuts rather than meat products? Doesn't this show that meat is not a health food? This shows that the only reason they do well on meat is not because meat is health food, but because fruits, vegetables, tubers a roots counter some of the negative effects of meat, fish, poultry, eggs,shellfish, cheese, and milk(note we are talking meat as it is now not meat as it was back in Paleo days, the fat content of meat you buy in a supermarket is much different that meat you might hunt yourself(depending on animal). Quote on Fiber "Once again, the displacement of fiber-rich plant foods by novel dietary staples, introduced during the Neolithic and Industrial periods, was instrumental in changing the diets that our species had traditionally consumed—a diet that would have almost always been high in fiber. Soluble fibers (those found primarily in fruit and vegetables) modestly reduce total and LDL-cholesterol concentrations beyond those achieved by a diet low in saturated fat and fiber, by slowing gastric emptying, may reduce the appetite and help to control caloric intake (171). Diets low in dietary fiber may underlie or exacerbate constipation, appendicitis, hemorrhoids, deep vein thrombosis, varicose veins, diverticulitis, hiatal hernia, and gastroesophageal reflux (172)." But wait a minute Meat, fish, poulty, eggs, and shellfish are completely devoid of fiber, so why are they recommended on the paleo diet? In your first post you mention that Paleo eschews beans and legumes. And yet number 26. Insulin-sensitizing effects of dietary resistant starch and effects on skeletal muscle and adipose tissue metabolism. The conclusion of the study is: These results suggest that dietary supplementation with resistant starch has the potential to improve insulin sensitivity. Further studies in insulin-resistant persons are needed. So I looked up resistant starch http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistant_starch and if you look you will see Navy beans are the highest, lentils are also on there, but yet you shouldn't eat them? 27. Fiber and cardiovascular disease risk: how strong is the evidence? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16407729 It's just another source for why fruits and vegetables, and even grains are good for you. 28.Beneficial effects of high dietary fiber intake in patients with type 2 diabetes mellitus. http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM200005113421903 Conclusion: A high intake of dietary fiber, particularly of the soluble type, above the level recommended by the ADA, improves glycemic control, decreases hyperinsulinemia, and lowers plasma lipid concentrations in patients with type 2 diabetes. Once again I have to mention that meat is completely devoid of any type of fiber.
It seems that the benefits of the Paleo diet don't come from eating lots of meat, but in fact come from the increased intake of fruits and vegetables. Of course when you switch from the SAD to a diet that has more fruits and vegetables you are sure to get benefits. It just shows that fruits and vegetables are so good for you that you might avoid health issues for sometime, but the more meat you consume, the more you move away from health in terms of diet. The more fruits and vegetables you consume the more you move towards it in terms of diet.
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Slithe United States. February 10 2012 07:11. Posts 948
On February 10 2012 06:16 ElizarTringov wrote: Here is another quote from the study "A detailed analysis of food intake over 2 wk revealed a low-energy intake (1200 kcal/person/day)" I am wondering did they make a mistake here no man on the planet can consume 1200 Kcal, after all that is 1,200,000 calories. I guess they made a mistake and meant calories, but if that is what they meant it is no wonder why there are improvements, when you are eating that small amount of calories from ANY whole food source you are bound to see improvements in a number of areas.
On February 10 2012 06:16 ElizarTringov wrote: Here is another quote from the study "A detailed analysis of food intake over 2 wk revealed a low-energy intake (1200 kcal/person/day)" I am wondering did they make a mistake here no man on the planet can consume 1200 Kcal, after all that is 1,200,000 calories. I guess they made a mistake and meant calories, but if that is what they meant it is no wonder why there are improvements, when you are eating that small amount of calories from ANY whole food source you are bound to see improvements in a number of areas.
There are two definitions of calories, small calories and big calories. 1000 cal = 1 kcal = 1 Cal (mind the lower case vs upper case)
Not that I like his tone or approach in discussing this, but I think that's exactly the point he's trying to make. It's a mistake in a source Eshlow provided. Was going off what Slithe said
Last edit: 2012-02-11 04:27:14
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Logros Netherlands. February 10 2012 07:56. Posts 9728
On February 10 2012 06:16 ElizarTringov wrote: Here is another quote from the study "A detailed analysis of food intake over 2 wk revealed a low-energy intake (1200 kcal/person/day)" I am wondering did they make a mistake here no man on the planet can consume 1200 Kcal, after all that is 1,200,000 calories. I guess they made a mistake and meant calories, but if that is what they meant it is no wonder why there are improvements, when you are eating that small amount of calories from ANY whole food source you are bound to see improvements in a number of areas.
There are two definitions of calories, small calories and big calories. 1000 cal = 1 kcal = 1 Cal (mind the lower case vs upper case)
Not that I like his tone or approach in discussing this, but I think that's exactly the point he's trying to make. It's a mistake in a source Eshlow provided.
No he is making a mistake/doesn't understand basic food labels. 1200 kcal is actually quite a small amount. 2000-3000 kcal a day is pretty normal.
eshlow United States. February 10 2012 08:49. Posts 5004
The first study mentions "healty" nonobese sedentary individuals. What is their definition of health exactly, can a sedentary individual truly be healthy compared to one who exercises? If by health they mean that the individuals were simply disease free than that really misses the mark on health, does anyone really want to only be disease free or do they want to have abundant health and vitality? After all you could be "healthy" now but die within the next year if the only definition of health is that you have to be disease free now. It The study doesn't really say what their previous diet consisted off so I don't know what the paleolithic diet is being compared to exactly.
Straw man. You claim:
I find the Paleo diet is a danger to peoples health. I guess I should stand by on the sidelines and let them suffer health problems?
Paleo improves blood markers which are associated with increased risk fo CVD. So obviously this is clearly improving health.
The first study mentions "healty" nonobese sedentary individuals. What is their definition of health exactly, can a sedentary individual truly be healthy compared to one who exercises? If by health they mean that the individuals were simply disease free than that really misses the mark on health, does anyone really want to only be disease free or do they want to have abundant health and vitality? After all you could be "healthy" now but die within the next year if the only definition of health is that you have to be disease free now. It The study doesn't really say what their previous diet consisted off so I don't know what the paleolithic diet is being compared to exactly.
If you scroll down to Later Developments you will see the: In 1976, Nathan Pritikin opened a centre where patients were put on programme of diet and exercise (the Pritikin Program). This diet is high on carbohydrates and fibre, with fresh fruit, vegetables, and whole grains. A study at UCLA in 2005 showed that it brought dramatic improvement to a group of diabetics and pre-diabetics in only three weeks, so that about half no longer met the criteria for the disease.[5][6][7][8]
Unfortunately the same cannot be said for the study you posted which was conducted in 3 month period.
This is funny. That's why they have comparison studies to actually COMPARE Paleo to the diabetes diet
Patients on Paleo improved more on OGTT -- oral glucose tolerance test -- compared to diabetes diet in the above study referenced, and more were non-diabetic or pre-diabetic on Paleo than the diabetes diet. OGTT and fasting plasma glucose are both lower.
This is not including other markers of improvement.
But of course you didn't actually read the results
Considering the fact that they compare Paleo to Mediterranean-like diet then I can't really disagree since I don't think a Mediterranean that includes, oil, margarine, and low-fat dairy is really conductive to health either. This is simply a case of bad versus worse.
Med diet includes olive oil. Dairy is debatable, but actually included in Med diet.
I will concede that it doesn't include margarine; however, if you read the actually study the those on the med diet were not actually fed margarine so I have no clue why they put it in there.
lol @ this though. Mediterranean diet in the literature is one of the most proven diets to improve health. The fact that you're trying to debunk Med diet is just foolish.
The study shows unfavorable changes in calcium. I also like their conclusion that control groups are needed, after all what if you compare individuals on SAD who go on a number of diets, from vegetarian(including low-fat and high fat), to vegan(including low-fat and high-fat), lacto-ovo vegetarian and any number of diets. If you are comparing Paleo to SAD then I have to agree that Paleo IS better, but the again almost any diet is better than SAD.
Is this even a critique? Straw man SAD into the discussion?
If you look on page 1: "These studies were supported in part by a research grant from the Institute of American Meat Packers." Am I really supposed to believe that they would fund studies that show the negative health effects of meat? Am I supposed to believe they are funding this study to help people make better decisions on what food to buy for health? I am more prone to believe they just want another selling point of meat.
Another straw man (or I guess you could say it's more of a Guilt by association or biased sample or something along those lines)
Funding is a consideration.
However, unless you have proof they falsified their evidence/results I don't see the problem.
Last study,
You don't understand nutritional calories. All values are in kcals. 2000-2500 kcals is normal per day.
So why does the Paleo diet exclude whole grains when it is highly processed grains that are the problem? -- read the OP
So if we want to eat a net-base producing diet shouldn't we be eating fruit, vegetables, tubers, roots and nuts rather than meat products? Doesn't this show that meat is not a health food? -- acid/base balance is from balancing animal products with plants
But wait a minute Meat, fish, poulty, eggs, and shellfish are completely devoid of fiber, so why are they recommended on the paleo diet? -- paleo does not eschew vegetables and fruits
It doesn't matter if foods are devoid of fiber as long as you get fiber from sources.
So basically, you have an agenda against meat and fish and want everyone to go vegetarian/vegan
Except you actually don't even know enough about nutrition to know that 2000 kcals is acutally the 2000 calories that is referred to for a standard human, and many other mistakes like I showed in the above.
Come back when you have some studies that actually "debunk" Paleo like you claim
Last edit: 2012-02-10 08:51:32
Overcoming Gravity: A Systematic Approach to Gymnastics and Bodyweight Strength
eshlow United States. February 10 2012 08:50. Posts 5004
On February 10 2012 06:16 ElizarTringov wrote: Here is another quote from the study "A detailed analysis of food intake over 2 wk revealed a low-energy intake (1200 kcal/person/day)" I am wondering did they make a mistake here no man on the planet can consume 1200 Kcal, after all that is 1,200,000 calories. I guess they made a mistake and meant calories, but if that is what they meant it is no wonder why there are improvements, when you are eating that small amount of calories from ANY whole food source you are bound to see improvements in a number of areas.
There are two definitions of calories, small calories and big calories. 1000 cal = 1 kcal = 1 Cal (mind the lower case vs upper case)
Not that I like his tone or approach in discussing this, but I think that's exactly the point he's trying to make. It's a mistake in a source Eshlow provided.
No, the source is correct. He is wrong.
Overcoming Gravity: A Systematic Approach to Gymnastics and Bodyweight Strength
Twisted Netherlands. February 10 2012 09:07. Posts 11896
This is shaping up to be interesting. It's too late for me tonight, but I will surely read all of this tomorrow
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I watched the first 10 parts, most of it was attacking the word choice of Cordain in his book. A lot of hot air. But I skipped around and found this interesting.
I never knew the origins of the 7 country study. This went into detail about it.
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ElizarTringov Bulgaria. February 12 2012 05:05. Posts 186
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