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| AoN.DimSum United States. February 12 2012 08:23. Posts 2806 | Profile Blog # | |
| | by my idol krokkis : "U better hope Finland wont have WCG next year and that I wont gain shitloads of skill, cause then I will wash ur mouth with soap, little man." |
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| eshlow United States. February 12 2012 08:53. Posts 5013 | Profile # |
Really?
Unfortunately, it is hard to acquire grassfed meat and non-farm fed fish, so supplementation of omega 3s may be valid; likewise, for vitamin D if you have a job inside. Obviously, naturally is best but you can run into issues in the "modern world."
Also, how come vegetarians and vegans NEED to take supplements to you know actually not get pernicious anemia for example? Vegs are more deficient in vitamins and minerals than Paleo. |
| | Overcoming Gravity: A Systematic Approach to Gymnastics and Bodyweight Strength |
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| Slithe United States. February 12 2012 10:21. Posts 948 | Profile Blog # |
That was a really interesting read.
My issue with nutrition science as a whole is that there's so many different studies that claim different things, so it's impossible for the average guy like me to be certain of anything. It seems that if you massage the statistics enough, you can prove anything. |
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| Zafrumi Switzerland. February 12 2012 11:14. Posts 1257 | Profile # |
On February 12 2012 10:21 Slithe wrote:That was a really interesting read. My issue with nutrition science as a whole is that there's so many different studies that claim different things, so it's impossible for the average guy like me to be certain of anything. It seems that if you massage the statistics enough, you can prove anything.
thats pretty much how I feel. I think as long as you actually pay attention to what you eat, you're alright. |
| | "Strong people are harder to kill than weak people and more useful in general" -Mark Rippetoe |
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| ElizarTringov Bulgaria. February 12 2012 12:11. Posts 186 | Profile Blog # |
On February 12 2012 08:53 eshlow wrote:Really? Unfortunately, it is hard to acquire grassfed meat and non-farm fed fish, so supplementation of omega 3s may be valid; likewise, for vitamin D if you have a job inside. Obviously, naturally is best but you can run into issues in the "modern world." Also, how come vegetarians and vegans NEED to take supplements to you know actually not get pernicious anemia for example? Vegs are more deficient in vitamins and minerals than Paleo.
The only way to actually know that is with a blood-test. I have already posted a vegan's blood test in another thread but if you want me to post it here I will do that. The only way Vegs would be more deficient is if they ate less fruit and veg than paleo, or if they had an absorption problem, otherwise I don't see why it would be the case. I also find that people have gotten great results with a diet that includes grains, such as the Dr.Mcdougall Programhttp://www.drmcdougall.com/
Another problem that I find about this diet is that it was made to fail, suppressing your craving for sugar requires willpower, but willpower requires glucose, someone on a diet like paleo isn't getting nearly enough glucose compared to someone like who is on a Dr.Mcdougall diet. http://psr.sagepub.com/content/11/4/303.short
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| | Perfect practice makes perfect. |
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| ElizarTringov Bulgaria. February 12 2012 12:24. Posts 186 | Profile Blog # |
On February 12 2012 10:21 Slithe wrote:That was a really interesting read. My issue with nutrition science as a whole is that there's so many different studies that claim different things, so it's impossible for the average guy like me to be certain of anything. It seems that if you massage the statistics enough, you can prove anything.
Well if you don't want to rely on statistics just find the people who have the results you want and find out what they do. Do you want the results of http://www.robbwolf.com/2011/01/24/my-training-at-39/
Robb Wolf? "After the book tour I was about beat to death. Don’t get me wrong, it was an exciting time but between wrapping up the book, doing the PSS, pimping the book, time zone changes and the random gluten exposure while eating on the road…well, I was a mess. My biosignature showed high Cortisol, insulin resistance and the testosterone levels of an 80 year old. Woman.
I was NOT in good shape. I did not at that time do an ASI test which I now regret as I know things have improved dramatically but I’m just not that into reaffirming via diagnostic measures what I know already by observation. I’ll be better about that in the future as solid numbers ARE important for benchmarks. For sure I was not in great shape, about 170 lbs and body comp was around 15% body fat.
I was not digesting of my food very well, energy levels were low and on days when it was cloudy in Chico I got VERY squirrely. Luckily I had 5 weeks ahead of me with no travel so I decided to really get my shit together and do whatever it took to get healthy and strong again. The areas that I focused on supporting were sleep, adrenal function, digestion, and androgen production."
Take note of all the supplements he took: NowFoods Super Enzymes, CoQ10, OrthoAdapt, Cod Liver Oil, DHEA, NowFoods Tribulus 1000, hold on thats just after breakfast. Heres lunch: Super Enzymes, Tribulus Then dinner: NaturalCalm, Melatonin < he could have just gotten that by getting in enough carbs.
Do vegetarians really take that many supps? I know from personal experience, because I don't take any, I know my dad doesn't take any, nor my brother, or cousin ... I think you get the point. Not everybody gets their nutrients in pill, some people just eat the right food, plus remember health is more than just what you eat. |
| | Perfect practice makes perfect. |
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| Slithe United States. February 12 2012 12:35. Posts 948 | Profile Blog # |
On February 12 2012 12:24 ElizarTringov wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 10:21 Slithe wrote:That was a really interesting read. My issue with nutrition science as a whole is that there's so many different studies that claim different things, so it's impossible for the average guy like me to be certain of anything. It seems that if you massage the statistics enough, you can prove anything.
Well if you don't want to rely on statistics just find the people who have the results you want and find out what they do.
It is obviously stupid to take anecdotal evidence and individual experiences as compelling evidence for a particular diet. It's the equivalent of believing in a study where all the statistics are from a sample size of 1. Even if I were to follow this advice, it would still compel me to eat meat, since 99.9% of top-level athletes eat meat. |
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| AoN.DimSum United States. February 12 2012 12:44. Posts 2806 | Profile Blog # |
On February 12 2012 12:24 ElizarTringov wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 10:21 Slithe wrote:That was a really interesting read. My issue with nutrition science as a whole is that there's so many different studies that claim different things, so it's impossible for the average guy like me to be certain of anything. It seems that if you massage the statistics enough, you can prove anything.
Well if you don't want to rely on statistics just find the people who have the results you want and find out what they do. Do you want the results of http://www.robbwolf.com/2011/01/24/my-training-at-39/Robb Wolf? "After the book tour I was about beat to death. Don’t get me wrong, it was an exciting time but between wrapping up the book, doing the PSS, pimping the book, time zone changes and the random gluten exposure while eating on the road…well, I was a mess. My biosignature showed high Cortisol, insulin resistance and the testosterone levels of an 80 year old. Woman. I was NOT in good shape. I did not at that time do an ASI test which I now regret as I know things have improved dramatically but I’m just not that into reaffirming via diagnostic measures what I know already by observation. I’ll be better about that in the future as solid numbers ARE important for benchmarks. For sure I was not in great shape, about 170 lbs and body comp was around 15% body fat. I was not digesting of my food very well, energy levels were low and on days when it was cloudy in Chico I got VERY squirrely. Luckily I had 5 weeks ahead of me with no travel so I decided to really get my shit together and do whatever it took to get healthy and strong again. The areas that I focused on supporting were sleep, adrenal function, digestion, and androgen production." Take note of all the supplements he took: NowFoods Super Enzymes, CoQ10, OrthoAdapt, Cod Liver Oil, DHEA, NowFoods Tribulus 1000, hold on thats just after breakfast. Heres lunch: Super Enzymes, Tribulus Then dinner: NaturalCalm, Melatonin < he could have just gotten that by getting in enough carbs. Do vegetarians really take that many supps? I know from personal experience, because I don't take any, I know my dad doesn't take any, nor my brother, or cousin ... I think you get the point. Not everybody gets their nutrients in pill, some people just eat the right food, plus remember health is more than just what you eat.
"
Chow
Like I mentioned, I was not digesting my food very well and I could take large does of the SuperEnzymes so I knew my HCL levels were low which means the normal signaling that governs the pancreas and gall bladder was lacking (remember most digestion takes place in the small intestine). I also suspected some dysbiosis (overgrowth of the wrong type of bugs) So I ate VERY low carb for a few weeks to starve any of the nastier bugs and started supplementing with some beneficial flora. I used Jarrow’s probiotic and a product from NewChapter. I know the Jarrowdophylis has a bit of dairy in it, but I’ve always liked the product. In the future I’d like to start making some homemade kraut and kimche as a probiotic. I just loves me some kraut!!
Macro wise I shot for 1gProtein/lb BW, lots of well cooked veggies ( to aid in digestion) and a “little fat.” This should look familiar to y’all. I took this in typically three meals although occasionally it was four or two. Because of the adrenal issues I had I was not pushing the intermittent fasting other than I tried to finish eating early (5-6pm) as it seemed to help my sleep. No food in the system allows for les competition with the melatonin passing the blood brain barrier AND it allows for your body temp to drop. At this point I was chubby and needed to lean out. So, I used the same plan I’d recommend to pretty much anyone. BEWARE the person who does not follow their own nutrition and exercise recommendations.
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| | by my idol krokkis : "U better hope Finland wont have WCG next year and that I wont gain shitloads of skill, cause then I will wash ur mouth with soap, little man." |
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| GoTuNk! Chile. February 12 2012 14:11. Posts 2222 | Profile Blog # |
On February 12 2012 12:11 ElizarTringov wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 08:53 eshlow wrote:Really? Unfortunately, it is hard to acquire grassfed meat and non-farm fed fish, so supplementation of omega 3s may be valid; likewise, for vitamin D if you have a job inside. Obviously, naturally is best but you can run into issues in the "modern world." Also, how come vegetarians and vegans NEED to take supplements to you know actually not get pernicious anemia for example? Vegs are more deficient in vitamins and minerals than Paleo.
The only way to actually know that is with a blood-test. I have already posted a vegan's blood test in another thread but if you want me to post it here I will do that. The only way Vegs would be more deficient is if they ate less fruit and veg than paleo, or if they had an absorption problem, otherwise I don't see why it would be the case. I also find that people have gotten great results with a diet that includes grains, such as the Dr.Mcdougall Program http://www.drmcdougall.com/Another problem that I find about this diet is that it was made to fail, suppressing your craving for sugar requires willpower, but willpower requires glucose, someone on a diet like paleo isn't getting nearly enough glucose compared to someone like who is on a Dr.Mcdougall diet. http://psr.sagepub.com/content/11/4/303.short
1) I'm not gonna comment on the nutritional deficiencies of veganism, given eshlow loves to do that stuff and actually knows a lot more, but it is quite evident that it is fucking hard to get the protein/zinc/iron intake that a person who actually does sports or lift weights requires without eating meat. There is a reason 99% of athletes eat meat regularly.
2) Assuming that abstract is somewhat true, you can still have all the glucose you want in the paleo diet (u know this thing called fruits?). It seems to me you keep confusing low carb diets with paleo diet, when they are just different.
From your posts it is evident that you should begin heavy weight lifting, particularly squatting and deadlifting.
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| eshlow United States. February 12 2012 22:02. Posts 5013 | Profile # |
Again, Paleo is not necessarily high or low carb.
Paleo, specifically higher protein and fat, don't suppress hunger but they do induce satiety through hormones such as ghrelin, leptin, cck, etc.
This is pointless.
You have no studies "debunking" Paleo so now you're just rambling about different people even though one (Robb) admits he is super stressed from traveling and should be focused on recovery factors.
Go find a vegan thread to post in so you can rant about Paleo here. You are making yourself look dumb since your arguments are terrible,Last edit: 2012-02-12 22:04:37 |
| | Overcoming Gravity: A Systematic Approach to Gymnastics and Bodyweight Strength |
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| Zafrumi Switzerland. February 12 2012 22:20. Posts 1257 | Profile # |
| I'm not taking any supplements either. paleo must be working! |
| | "Strong people are harder to kill than weak people and more useful in general" -Mark Rippetoe |
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| ElizarTringov Bulgaria. February 13 2012 04:37. Posts 186 | Profile Blog # |
In you OP you mention: Typical hunter gatherer carbohydrate sources ranged from about 22-40% of total energy intake. On a 2,000 calorie diet, this is 440 - 800 calories from carbs which is 110-200g of carbs a day.
This is low carb COMPARED to what I call high carb which is at least 10g of carb per KG of bodyweight. For a person like me that is about 580g. If you were to try to do that on Paleo it wouldn't be paleo anymore because the ratio of plant to animal food would change completely. |
| | Perfect practice makes perfect. |
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| ElizarTringov Bulgaria. February 13 2012 04:46. Posts 186 | Profile Blog # |
On February 12 2012 12:35 Slithe wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 12:24 ElizarTringov wrote:
On February 12 2012 10:21 Slithe wrote:That was a really interesting read. My issue with nutrition science as a whole is that there's so many different studies that claim different things, so it's impossible for the average guy like me to be certain of anything. It seems that if you massage the statistics enough, you can prove anything.
Well if you don't want to rely on statistics just find the people who have the results you want and find out what they do.
It is obviously stupid to take anecdotal evidence and individual experiences as compelling evidence for a particular diet. It's the equivalent of believing in a study where all the statistics are from a sample size of 1. Even if I were to follow this advice, it would still compel me to eat meat, since 99.9% of top-level athletes eat meat.
Yes but they also eat a high-carb diet. |
| | Perfect practice makes perfect. |
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| ElizarTringov Bulgaria. February 13 2012 04:50. Posts 186 | Profile Blog # |
On February 12 2012 22:02 eshlow wrote:
Again, Paleo is not necessarily high or low carb.
Paleo, specifically higher protein and fat, don't suppress hunger but they do induce satiety through hormones such as ghrelin, leptin, cck, etc.
This is pointless.
You have no studies "debunking" Paleo so now you're just rambling about different people even though one (Robb) admits he is super stressed from traveling and should be focused on recovery factors.
Go find a vegan thread to post in so you can rant about Paleo here. You are making yourself look dumb since your arguments are terrible,
He is super stressed "from" traveling, or is he super stressed because the Paleo diet is thrashing his body? Didn't know Paleo man took pills to help him stay Paleo. I don't think you realize the research and results Dr.McDougall has gotten with patients automatically debunks Paleo by default, because his diet is high carb, low fat, vegan diet. Last edit: 2012-02-13 04:53:28 |
| | Perfect practice makes perfect. |
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| Sneakyz Sweden. February 13 2012 04:56. Posts 2323 | Profile # |
On February 13 2012 04:50 ElizarTringov wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 22:02 eshlow wrote:
Again, Paleo is not necessarily high or low carb.
Paleo, specifically higher protein and fat, don't suppress hunger but they do induce satiety through hormones such as ghrelin, leptin, cck, etc.
This is pointless.
You have no studies "debunking" Paleo so now you're just rambling about different people even though one (Robb) admits he is super stressed from traveling and should be focused on recovery factors.
Go find a vegan thread to post in so you can rant about Paleo here. You are making yourself look dumb since your arguments are terrible,
He is super stressed "from" traveling, or is he super stressed because the Paleo diet is thrashing his body? Didn't know Paleo man took pills to help him stay Paleo.
Really dood... If the people reading this thread are to believe you over a PT and the author of a book, you ought to supply some credible studies instead of your pointless straw grabbing. And as numerous people have already told you, paleo is not a low-carb diet only... |
| | I have found the Iron to be my greatest friend. It never freaks out on me, never runs. Friends may come and go. But two hundred pounds is always two hundred pounds. |
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| ElizarTringov Bulgaria. February 13 2012 05:15. Posts 186 | Profile Blog # |
On February 13 2012 04:56 Sneakyz wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 04:50 ElizarTringov wrote:
On February 12 2012 22:02 eshlow wrote:
Again, Paleo is not necessarily high or low carb.
Paleo, specifically higher protein and fat, don't suppress hunger but they do induce satiety through hormones such as ghrelin, leptin, cck, etc.
This is pointless.
You have no studies "debunking" Paleo so now you're just rambling about different people even though one (Robb) admits he is super stressed from traveling and should be focused on recovery factors.
Go find a vegan thread to post in so you can rant about Paleo here. You are making yourself look dumb since your arguments are terrible,
He is super stressed "from" traveling, or is he super stressed because the Paleo diet is thrashing his body? Didn't know Paleo man took pills to help him stay Paleo.
Really dood... If the people reading this thread are to believe you over a PT and the author of a book, you ought to supply some credible studies instead of your pointless straw grabbing. And as numerous people have already told you, paleo is not a low-carb diet only...
Ok cool story. People keep mentioning that grains came into the human diet fairly recently, but so did meat, but we ate something else before that, and our basic physiology hasn't really changed much since then. http://www.scribd.com/doc/17111888/Science-Verifies-That-Humans-Are-Frugivores |
| | Perfect practice makes perfect. |
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| GoTuNk! Chile. February 13 2012 05:34. Posts 2222 | Profile Blog # |
On February 13 2012 05:15 ElizarTringov wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 04:56 Sneakyz wrote:
On February 13 2012 04:50 ElizarTringov wrote:
On February 12 2012 22:02 eshlow wrote:
Again, Paleo is not necessarily high or low carb.
Paleo, specifically higher protein and fat, don't suppress hunger but they do induce satiety through hormones such as ghrelin, leptin, cck, etc.
This is pointless.
You have no studies "debunking" Paleo so now you're just rambling about different people even though one (Robb) admits he is super stressed from traveling and should be focused on recovery factors.
Go find a vegan thread to post in so you can rant about Paleo here. You are making yourself look dumb since your arguments are terrible,
He is super stressed "from" traveling, or is he super stressed because the Paleo diet is thrashing his body? Didn't know Paleo man took pills to help him stay Paleo.
Really dood... If the people reading this thread are to believe you over a PT and the author of a book, you ought to supply some credible studies instead of your pointless straw grabbing. And as numerous people have already told you, paleo is not a low-carb diet only...
Ok cool story. People keep mentioning that grains came into the human diet fairly recently, but so did meat, but we ate something else before that, and our basic physiology hasn't really changed much since then. http://www.scribd.com/doc/17111888/Science-Verifies-That-Humans-Are-Frugivores
Did you even read your link?
lol at considering human ancestors before australopithecus. We might as well say in true paleo diet we should only eat plancton because we descend from fish -.-
Also, check the "sources" the guy uses. Bullshit propaganda websites, not any real study.
Srsly, stop posting retarded shit.
Last edit: 2012-02-13 05:34:52 |
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| eshlow United States. February 13 2012 06:49. Posts 5013 | Profile # |
Still waiting on those studies supporting his position.
Don't think they're ever going to come though. |
| | Overcoming Gravity: A Systematic Approach to Gymnastics and Bodyweight Strength |
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| AoN.DimSum United States. February 13 2012 07:34. Posts 2806 | Profile Blog # |
Is it possible for an admin to ban him from just this thread? His comments are now really annoying.  |
| | by my idol krokkis : "U better hope Finland wont have WCG next year and that I wont gain shitloads of skill, cause then I will wash ur mouth with soap, little man." |
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| Ingenol United States. February 13 2012 08:48. Posts 1228 | Profile Blog # |
On February 13 2012 07:34 AoN.DimSum wrote:Is it possible for an admin to ban him from just this thread? His comments are now really annoying.
Agreed. Not a single coherent thing regarding the anti-paleo position has been said for several pages now. |
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