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| fubusama October 05 2011 03:14. Posts 71 | Profile # |
All,
Wanted to get your thoughts & opinions on zerg rushes in the current metagame.
Through my own experience working with both, I tend to feel there is actually a pretty significant difference (depending on the map) between a 6 pool and a 7 pool.
6 pools can be very effective vs toss if they don't scout it fast enough... especially if they've already dropped a gateway. The major issue of course is that if you fail... you've got an uphill battle for when that 4 gate eventually follows up...
Against Zerg - it's kind of hit or miss. I feel the way to get the best win ratio with 6 pool vs zerg is to bring all your drones... because at the higher levels, players know how to micro their drones enough to buy time for the 14 pool to squash it... but bring your drones + 1 spine + 6 lings and they need nearly perfect micro to hold it off if they've gone 14 gas 14 pool.
7 pool on the other hand... I feel isn't very effective vs toss if they open gateway. Against FFE, it has some legs, but the better news is you aren't TERRIBLY far behind if they stop it, especially if you manage to kill a pylon and/or a few probes.
This is how I'm experiencing it, but wanted to get the communities view on the subject. I've heard several say 6 vs 7... both are horrible builds... others swear by only 6 pooling if you're going to rush... what do you guys think?
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| | The better you get, the more you realize how bad you are. |
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| TheEggMan Argentina. October 05 2011 04:14. Posts 9 | Profile # |
| 7 pool can be followed by 2 more drones and ovie and still have larva for 6 lings while 6 pool only leaves you with 2 more drones and 6 lings being supply block for 27 secs before ovie |
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| Sleight October 05 2011 04:21. Posts 1042 | Profile Blog # |
So my recent testing PvZ, the only FFE opening that is truly safe against 6 pool is 12 Forge, while a 13 Forge holds a 7 pool pretty easily, the 6 pool is... unfortunately close. The extra time for the Cannon to pop means that Zerg can focus down even a panic Gateway somtimes and get into the base. Even though the micro can be tight and Zerg has to go STRAIGHT to the P's base (re: Shakuras), but I'd say 7 pool has a good shot of working vs a 14 or later (aka Standard timing) Forge first, but even a 13 Forge will give you trouble and a 12 Forge is an easy hold.
6 pool on a map with about 40s or evens 45s Ling rush time (that's pretty close to a standard rush distance) is reallllllly strong vs. any Forge except 12 and maybe 13 as well. We have all seen 14 Forges hold vs 6 pool at least once, but I think thats more likely a mistake by Z than a safe build by P. Even with 14 Forge and Cannon straight away, they can blitz right past your wall or take down your Cannon easily.Last edit: 2011-10-05 04:22:24 |
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| Zerg-Master United States. October 05 2011 05:53. Posts 36 | Profile # |
7 Pool is much better, IMO. You can add 3 more drones after the pool (up to 9 drones) and then double extractor trick to get out the 6 initial lings. If you aren't 7 pooling like that, there is no point.
In ZvP it is incredibly good. ZvZ not great. |
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| TibblesEvilCat United Kingdom. October 05 2011 06:08. Posts 766 | Profile # |
you must pair and 7% your drones to 6pool effectively, allot of people are lazy when they are pairing workers and 7% them. but like any cheese if you know the correct response to counter then your generally ahead.
note about failpools your counting on your opponent overacting, this is where 7pool-9pool excel at as even though your ling come up to 50 seconds (18 seconds per extra drone) slower, you punish fe's that don't cut workers to get defence.
7% Minerals
+ Show Spoiler +
edit, they patched out 7% sorry for false infomation. ♥Last edit: 2011-10-06 05:12:40 |
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| Fastat3m October 05 2011 06:14. Posts 1 | Profile # |
| Since any cheese has an appropriate response, could somebody lay out an ideal defense for a ZvZ, 7 pool, 6 ling, 3 spine crawler rush when your opponent randoms into Zerg? I haven't seen a proper defense and was wondering what it would entail. Thanks Last edit: 2011-10-05 06:14:54 |
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| Qxz Canada. October 05 2011 06:16. Posts 189 | Profile # |
Versus FFE...
With 6 pool I'd need to do tremendous damage to make it worth the cost. Like, destroying at least two buildings, or several probes. I only have 7 drones, I don't have the extra overlord and the queen is very far away.
With 7-pool (CatZ version of course), I'm happy with just messing up my opponent's build and delaying his Nexus, I can transition into a macro game easily. I have 9 drones, an overlord on the way, and the queen queued up right after. Then I'm free to expand and make only drones and expand for a while, because of the nature of FFE.
I can't tell which is better. Moon went for the 6-pool vs Huk in the Dreamhack finals, got directly to his base and failed to do any real damage. The game was lost right there. On one hand this discourages me to go 6-pool, on the other I suppose Moon knows his stuff better than I.
Last edit: 2011-10-05 06:17:07 |
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| Zeon0 Austria. October 05 2011 06:22. Posts 2540 | Profile # |
On October 05 2011 06:08 TibblesEvilCat wrote:
you must pair and 7% your drones to 6pool effectively, allot of people are lazy when they are pairing workers and 7% them. but like any cheese if you know the correct response to counter then your generally ahead.
note about failpools your counting on your opponent overacting, this is where 7pool-9pool excel at as even though your ling come up to 50 seconds (18 seconds per extra drone) slower, you punish fe's that don't cut workers to get defence.
u know they patched the 7% more minerals trick like a year ago? |
| | Hater of MKP since GSL Open Season 2 | Fanboy of: NesTea Stephano IdrA DIMAGA MorroW ret DongRaeGu Snute SaSe Mvp ThorZaIN DeMusliM |
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| fubusama October 06 2011 00:32. Posts 71 | Profile # |
On October 05 2011 06:22 Zeon0 wrote:
Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 06:08 TibblesEvilCat wrote:
you must pair and 7% your drones to 6pool effectively, allot of people are lazy when they are pairing workers and 7% them. but like any cheese if you know the correct response to counter then your generally ahead.
note about failpools your counting on your opponent overacting, this is where 7pool-9pool excel at as even though your ling come up to 50 seconds (18 seconds per extra drone) slower, you punish fe's that don't cut workers to get defence.
u know they patched the 7% more minerals trick like a year ago?
you can still stack 2 drones on the closest mineral patches... but you can't stop the delay in the return. Still yields more than sending 1 to each patch. |
| | The better you get, the more you realize how bad you are. |
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| Sceptre Canada. October 06 2011 03:11. Posts 88 | Profile # |
| I'm pretty sure the 7% thing doesn't work at all anymore. |
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| nDragan Canada. October 06 2011 04:08. Posts 31 | Profile # |
it really depends on the map.
Against toss, 6 pool on tal'darim is a pretty standard opening actually. 7 pool is viable to some extent on most maps, but if you're scouted first and the toss is competent u probably wont do enough damage to make it effective. This usually turns out to be a 2/3 chance that he won't scout you on larger maps so if you micro well and keep up your economy macro behind it you can often get a nice lead. I don't really like to do this too much though because like I said there is a 1/3 chance that he will scout it right away (assuming 9 pylon) and you will be pretty far behind if you do no damage. I would suggest only doing it occasionally on maps with larger entrances and more for them to wall-off forcing them to lose a lot reacting to it. Even then, don't forget that this is no an all-in strategy, but merely a harass to allow you to get ahead economically.
Against zerg, i find that 7 pool is generally an absolutely terrible build. If the player is decent, with 14 pool they should be able to hold it off fine and be ahead. If they 15 hatch you should win, but you would also win doing a 10 pool, so this is preferred (watch the Nestea vs Losira finals in the GSL a few months back for this, if you scout the hatch first you go all in, if you dont you keep making drones and won't be far behind). However 6 pool against zerg can be very effective if they don't scout you, but this is a straight up cheese. This works quite well as a cheese on smaller maps with 4 bases. There is a 2/3 chance you will basically get the win unless they drone scout. So if you're looking to just get wins on the ladder you can do that vs. zerg on certain maps, but won't really help you improve at all 
and yeah whatever you're doing you should try and double up drones on the close patches, you have nothing else to do at that point in the game so you might as well use your APM for that and be ahead a few minerals. |
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| TheGreenMachine United States. October 06 2011 04:31. Posts 693 | Profile # |
I used to do an 8 pool that does basically the same thing as the 7 pool drone afterward build.
Its 8pool, 2x drones, overlord, then 3 sets of lings as pool pops. 2 more sets of lings after for made total of 5 sets of lings then hatch if he went forge or queen+gas if he went 2gate.
I go for 3-5 roaches if he pressures with his 2 gate zealot. If its forge and cannon I can almost always get ahead in econ because of the over reaction.
I prettymuch lose straightup to fast 1-3 stalkers with good micro cuz I can never hit them T_T
Oh and my build isnt "terrible" cuz I beat two rank ~120 grandmasters with it. But again, its got a serious flaw against fast-ish stalkers coming out.Last edit: 2011-10-06 04:45:56 |
| | Don't forget to get everyone you know to play HOTS so this game we love called Starcraft will live on. Every little bit helps. ^^ |
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 Bad_Habit Germany. October 06 2011 04:42. Posts 243 | Profile # | |
| | I only gg vs protoss when I'm winning |
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| sVnteen Germany. October 06 2011 05:43. Posts 2161 | Profile # |
7 pool is quite a bit better
im pretty sure about that (for the already explained reasons) |
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| Jermstuddog United States. October 06 2011 06:52. Posts 2054 | Profile Blog # |
I use 7 pool in both match-ups.
My current favored uses of them are to do the 9 drone variant in ZvP and the 8 drone variant in ZvZ.
The big differences is the goals for using each build in each MU.
The 9 drone variant is better tailored to ZvP because I don't want to do damage so much. The goal is to disrupt his economy while getting ahead with my own. Overall, the smaller investment in lings and the earlier drone end up giving me a significantly stronger economy in comparison to the 8 drone variant while neutering my potential for dealing damage, which I am generally not too concerned with anyway.
The 8 drone variant I feel performs better in ZvZ due to the fact that your ultimate goal is to get a spine crawler finished on your opponents creep... or at least deal as much damage as possible to his drone-line to justify the cost and larva deficit you've caused yourself. Lings 7 & 8 often-time make all the difference there.
All the reasons that make the two builds better for each MU also adds to them being sub-optimal for the other. |
| | As it turns out, marines don't actually cost any money -Jinro | |
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| RobCorso United States. October 06 2011 07:12. Posts 111 | Profile # |
On October 06 2011 00:32 fubusama wrote:
Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 06:22 Zeon0 wrote:
On October 05 2011 06:08 TibblesEvilCat wrote:
you must pair and 7% your drones to 6pool effectively, allot of people are lazy when they are pairing workers and 7% them. but like any cheese if you know the correct response to counter then your generally ahead.
note about failpools your counting on your opponent overacting, this is where 7pool-9pool excel at as even though your ling come up to 50 seconds (18 seconds per extra drone) slower, you punish fe's that don't cut workers to get defence.
u know they patched the 7% more minerals trick like a year ago?
you can still stack 2 drones on the closest mineral patches... but you can't stop the delay in the return. Still yields more than sending 1 to each patch.
If you micro properly (ei, 33 split, then stacking drones on 3 close mineral patches) you can have more than the effect of the 7% |
| | We make expand, then defense it-WhiteRa |
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| Bad_Habit Germany. October 06 2011 13:56. Posts 243 | Profile # |
On October 06 2011 07:12 RobCorso wrote:
Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 00:32 fubusama wrote:
On October 05 2011 06:22 Zeon0 wrote:
On October 05 2011 06:08 TibblesEvilCat wrote:
you must pair and 7% your drones to 6pool effectively, allot of people are lazy when they are pairing workers and 7% them. but like any cheese if you know the correct response to counter then your generally ahead.
note about failpools your counting on your opponent overacting, this is where 7pool-9pool excel at as even though your ling come up to 50 seconds (18 seconds per extra drone) slower, you punish fe's that don't cut workers to get defence.
u know they patched the 7% more minerals trick like a year ago?
you can still stack 2 drones on the closest mineral patches... but you can't stop the delay in the return. Still yields more than sending 1 to each patch.
If you micro properly (ei, 33 split, then stacking drones on 3 close mineral patches) you can have more than the effect of the 7%
but dont overdo dronestacking, set your aim to get up a pool within 38(6pool)/48(7pool) seconds,
if you overdo dronestacking before you throw down the pool it will end up that ur pool will be later. only dronestack when theres a good oportunity, like one of your drones is about to give the minerals to the hatch and another drone just started to mine on the close mineralpatch.
im not talking about stackmistakes so the drone moves away to another patch, thats something different and for sure hurts the most  |
| | I only gg vs protoss when I'm winning |
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| Theldiot United States. October 07 2011 05:02. Posts 20 | Profile # |
For a more constructive discussion, I believe it is very important to know what league you're talking about (high level = GrandMaster?) and what build order for 6 pool and 7 pool. For example, there is a huge difference between
A) 7 pool, 3 drones, 2ET-6zerglings, Ovie, Queen.
B) 7 pool, 2 drones, Ovie, 6 zerglings, then mass lings.
For 6 pool, there is an effective alternative to 6 pool, 2 drones, 6 zerglings by squeezing in an extra drone at cost of delaying 3rd zergling pair by a bit.
Anyway, here's a perspective of a #1 diamond player
ZvP
ZvP: 6 pool with 3 drones, then 4 zerglings and extractor trick for 2 more works well. If your opponent walls off, then only 4 zerglings will be able to hit the wall anyway, so having a drone instead of a zergling-pair is worth it.
Compared to 7 pool, the extra 8-10 seconds of 4 zerglings hitting a building (~250 damage) is worth the economic sacrifice I don't overcommit with zerglings - i'll make 12 zerglings total (unless my opponent screws up) and use them very carefully to harass. In a rush it is all about efficient use of your units.
On larger maps, i prefer to 10 pool vs toss. It is just 20 seconds behind 7 pool, but allows a quick queen and hatchery to transition into a strong economy.
In case of a forge fast expand, you may do 0 damage, but by forcing your opponent to delay probe production to put up a wall and possibly an extra cannon, you'll still get an even game after fast expanding yourself.
ZvZ
A 10 pool with a spine and 10 zerglings can put up tremendous amount of pressure early in ZvZ.
10 pool, 10 OV, Extractor trick-drone, drone, 3 zergling, queen, zergling, ET zergling. Drone scout at 10; this drone will later build a spine protected by your zerglings.
This build will put you ahead of 6-9 pools, but even 14gas/14 pool will struggle if opponent doesn't save larva and micro well. Hatch first builds struggle as well since you'll have zergling superiority and by building your spine at the new hatchery, you'll make sure it will come up and eventually destroy the hatch.
The key in this build is to micro zerglings so they survive and do maximum damage while the (incomplete) spine crawler takes damage.
Only 6 and 10 pool
Only 6 pool and 10 pool appear to be viable to me. The 8-10 seconds that a 6 pool offers compared to 7 pool are very valuable to do damage. If a 8/9 pool succeeds in doing damage, most likely a 10 pool would have been able to do comparable damage as well. A 10 pool will be hit or miss, but even if it does little damage, you can still drone up and be in decent shape.
Depending on what your opponent does and map locations there is a high variability in how well your opponent can defend. For example, whether your opponent is lucky with their scouting will greatly affect the performance of the builds. The 6 pool maximizes aggression, the 10 pool maximizes economy while still being capable to pressure early.
Compare builds
Here is a neat exercise to evaluate 6-10 pools: watch a replay and mentally add or subtract seconds of when zerglings would arrive. If you did a 6 pool, imagine the zerglings coming in 8 seconds later - would the cannon have finished? Or when you do an 8 pool, what if your zerglings came in ~15 seconds later - would the zealot have completed to block? |
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| MoonCricket July 08 2012 23:56. Posts 205 | Profile # |
Is there any increase in your win rate vs Protoss or Terran by 6pooling and delaying the overlord for an extractor trick and the 4th pair of zerglings? I plan to transition out of the 6pool into a queen, drone and expand with 1 gas build after the overlord spawns regardless of whether or not the 6 to 8 zerglings win, i.e. either using the 6 to 8 zerglings to provide a winning chance or causing sufficient economic damage to either gain a minor advantage or "reset" the game into macro later while circumventing all of the opponent's cheese because I always cheese first.
The 7 pool seems to transition better than the 6 pool because there's no down time on the overlord, but I'm not certain how much of a difference those ~7 seconds for the first 3 sets of lings and the 4th set of lings before the overlord makes in terms of being able to just outright win the game before you overlord, queen, drone and expand. The 4th set of lings always seem to arrive before the 1st building falls, but I can't really tell if they're necessary for felling the gateway or not. If they sac the forward pylon and forge in order to build a rear pylon and cannon, I just try to harass the workers or periphereal buildings and keep them off the expansion without sacrificing my lings into the cannon.
I've seen Destiny 6 pool, extractor trick at 100 for 4th set of lings and then OL a lot on youtube, but he doesn't seem to bother transitioning out of the build very often (probably because he just outright wins with it a lot or draws blood and just goes All In).so it seems viable at least. Also what's better in terms of developing your economy after the initial attack, going straight for the Queen or just building drones and queening at your convenience? The queen definitely seems to give you more "outright kill them chances" by giving you the option to spit on more lings, but I usually just go straight for drones instead of the AI.
Thanks. |
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| Daimai Sweden. July 09 2012 06:51. Posts 589 | Profile Blog # |
I'm a high master protoss and I never lose to 6/7 pools. Just do 14 forge and when you see early pool and a low amount of drones when scouting his base (pylon scout), make pylon near mineral line, make cannon in mineral line which covers one gas, all of the nexus and the mineral line. Then just go 3gate expand into some 2 base timing and pick up your win.
(of course I dont want to sound arrogant and I would love criticism <3) |
| | I despise every terran player on this earth, and I hope there is a special place in hell saved for them. |
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