| NSANE.hydra United States. February 23 2012 08:30. Posts 416 | Profile Blog # |
Is that math for flat AD reds or AD/lvl reds? Because I was talking about AD/lvl ones  and I figured gaining ~15 more AD for the cost of ~5 ArPen (+21.87 AD at lv 18 and +9.99 ArPen vs +14.94 ArPen and +6.75 AD) would be pretty worth it, especially after considering Riven's scaling with AD. I'm not sure though, I can't do the math atm.Last edit: 2012-02-23 08:37:41 |
| | "fuck mech...I could 4pool and as long as he's simply PLANNING on going mech, I'll lose" |
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| Gahlo United States. February 23 2012 09:12. Posts 1926 | Profile # |
| Oh, sorry for missing that. That's for flat AD. I don't think it'd ever be worth it, by the time that /lvl ones catch up to flat I think the ArPen pulls ahead. |
| | I play Nidoking as a Viridian. I build Tri-attack for tons of damage. |
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| NSANE.hydra United States. February 26 2012 08:44. Posts 416 | Profile Blog # |
Okay I finally got around to doing the math (correctly I hope).
Assuming you have an extra +6 ArPen and +10% ArPen from masteries, and that you are level 16 with a Wriggles, 2 DBlades, and a fully farmed BT:
With AD/level reds and ArPen quints (~260 AD, 16 ArPen, 10% ArPen) -
Against a 100 armor target you do ~148 damage
Against a 150 armor target you do ~118 damage
Against a 200 armor target you do ~98 damage
Against a 250 armor target you do ~84 damage
With ArPen reds and flat AD quints (~248 AD, 21 ArPen, 10% ArPen) -
Against a 100 armor target you do ~145 damage
Against a 150 armor target you do ~115 damage
Against a 200 armor target you do ~95 damage
Against a 250 armor target you do ~81 damage
So yeah it looks like AD/level is better for a mid/endgame setup. If you go even more endgame and add a LW to all those items and that you're level 18,
With AD/level reds and ArPen quints (~308 AD, 16 ArPen, 50% ArPen) -
Against a 100 armor target you do ~217 damage
Against a 150 armor target you do ~185 damage
Against a 200 armor target you do ~161 damage
Against a 250 armor target you do ~142 damage
With ArPen reds and flat AD quints (~293 AD, 21 ArPen, 50% ArPen) -
Against a 100 armor target you do ~210 damage
Against a 150 armor target you do ~178 damage
Against a 200 armor target you do ~155 damage
Against a 250 armor target you do ~137 damage
So the AD/level pulls more ahead. This also doesn't take into consideration the fact that Riven's abilities scale extremely well off of her AD, so in reality it's even better than the margin these numbers show. The ArPen red page catches up extremely slowly as the target gains more armor, but it won't actually pull ahead in any possible scenario in LoL (it hadn't caught up by 2,000 armor). I think it's a decent runepage to consider taking situationally.
Edit: And just because I was curious, here's an earlygame scenario as well.
Assuming you have an extra +6 ArPen and +10% ArPen from masteries, and that you are level 9 with a Wriggles and 2 DBlades:
With AD/level reds and ArPen quints (~133 AD, 16 ArPen, 10% ArPen) -
Against a 100 armor target you do ~76 damage
Against a 150 armor target you do ~60 damage
With ArPen reds and flat AD quints (~129 AD, 21 ArPen, 10% ArPen) -
Against a 100 armor target you do ~75 damage
Against a 150 armor target you do ~59 damage
So basically AD/level reds and ArPen quints are worse super early and then pull ahead as the game progresses.
And of course all of this has absolutely no bearing whatsoever if I math'ed wrong  Last edit: 2012-02-26 08:59:32 |
| | "fuck mech...I could 4pool and as long as he's simply PLANNING on going mech, I'll lose" |
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| Navi Korea (South). February 26 2012 09:18. Posts 3252 | Profile # |
level 9?
you should be thinking about levels 1-7 which is where the laning phase is decided like 99% of the time
arpen is superior at that stage |
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| Navi Korea (South). February 26 2012 09:18. Posts 3252 | Profile # |
| i mean if u can get to level 9 safely every game then per level runes would be hands down superior to flats. but there's a reason why they are often not |
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| NSANE.hydra United States. February 26 2012 15:55. Posts 416 | Profile Blog # |
Ah yeah, I was talking about using those runes in cases where you're going to be playing relatively passively pre-6 anyway, so you might as well limit your earlygame power that you can't quite take advantage of and just focus on mid/lategame. They catch up at around level 7-8 depending on your AD anyway which isn't that bad, and you probably won't even be thinking getting a kill until level 6-7 if it's a lane that you're at a disadvantage in anyway...idk I suppose another option in lanes like that would be to take armor quints over AD quints so you can farm more easily, do you think that would be better? Both options have the same underlying idea about giving up earlygame shit so you can end up with a stronger lategame, one is just much safer since you can otherwise get zoned easily and lose farm and end up with a bigger disadvantage..
Last edit: 2012-02-26 15:56:00 |
| | "fuck mech...I could 4pool and as long as he's simply PLANNING on going mech, I'll lose" |
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| Chexx Germany. February 26 2012 17:59. Posts 2585 | Profile # |
I hate this hero. He reminds of Eddy from Tekken.
Button press smash lololoolroflherpderp, shield, stun so annoying TT I have huge problems against him with shen |
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| koreasilver Canada. February 27 2012 00:37. Posts 7483 | Profile Blog # |
| But even in that case, I take armor quints a lot against lanes that can be tough, and even in those lanes where you have to play a bit passively, jungler and midlane ganks are always going to be a possibility, and when such events arise you are really going to have to make use of your damage, which makes armor pen reds to be preferable. Even looking at your calculations the damage differences really seems negligible at lvl 16. I'd much rather take the greater damage potential in lvl 1-6 which is the most important part of the laning phase. |
| | "I don't think that the polls accurately reflect how far this race has swung in Romney's favor. I'm still expecting a landslide victory for Romney." - TL's very own Nostradamous, xDaunt |
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| Navi Korea (South). February 27 2012 01:34. Posts 3252 | Profile # |
armor is good for playing passively
but it is also great for attrition
flat MR / armor quints are two of the best for toplaners imo given how most toplaners play |
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| iCanada Canada. February 27 2012 05:39. Posts 2859 | Profile # |
I have trouble with Riven when it comes to teamfights. I usually dominate the early game, and mid game, coming out witht he most farm 9 times out of 10, but then I feel like I just... teamfight wrong.
I dunno, I try to play her like a carry and wait for everyone else to engage, but it seems like people never engage unless it like 2v5 or I'm not there. I always have to initiate for anything to actually happen, but then I just get blown up.
Am I approaching it wrong? Is their some magical formula to make your teams bruisers play like bruisers and initiate?
-.-
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| | But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake |
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| MindBreaker United States. February 27 2012 05:43. Posts 345 | Profile Blog # |
| Hey so how viable is riven solo top? I usually get ragged on when I call that even though I always dominate. I will say though I don't know what to do I'n teamfights (I assume my teammates are retarded but who knows) so what do I do I'n teamfights? |
| | Is it weird that I play most of my online games at work? And that it's a pizza place?? |
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| OriginalName Canada. February 27 2012 05:51. Posts 999 | Profile Blog # |
On February 27 2012 05:43 MindBreaker wrote:
Hey so how viable is riven solo top? I usually get ragged on when I call that even though I always dominate. I will say though I don't know what to do I'n teamfights (I assume my teammates are retarded but who knows) so what do I do I'n teamfights?
Pop ult/Shield dash and w the carry start qing for the bonus damage make sure your autos get off. if she isnt dead by the time the stun wears off shockwave her while shes running. if shes still alive your either a)targetting the super tanky carry that actually isnt doing shit b)Super behind.
after that just walk around and try to stun 2+ people and clean. |
| | ( ﾟヮﾟ)♡ | LoL: Kanopy --- GW2: Korfer (Sanctum of Rall) |
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| MindBreaker United States. February 27 2012 14:27. Posts 345 | Profile Blog # |
SCREW SINGED. I mean seriously how do I win solo top vs. Him?
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| | Is it weird that I play most of my online games at work? And that it's a pizza place?? |
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| iCanada Canada. February 27 2012 14:31. Posts 2859 | Profile # |
On February 27 2012 14:27 MindBreaker wrote:
SCREW SINGED. I mean seriously how do I win solo top vs. Him?
Free farm.
<3
Then you poop on things late game because you has many many mnay CS and golds. |
| | But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake |
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| snpnx Germany. February 27 2012 18:45. Posts 428 | Profile # |
@Navitar: Yould you upload some recent Riven replays (preferably Nautilus patch)?
I feel like I'm on a bad streak with her right now, and I'd like to see if I can do things better, especially in teamfights.
Since s.o. just recently also asked about teamfights, it would be incredibly nice to see 1 or 2 replays which are teamfight centric. |
| | "Language is Freeware, in that it's free to use, but it's not Open Source, so you can't just change things how you like." |
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| Shikyo Finland. February 27 2012 18:51. Posts 20118 | Profile Blog # |
Teamfights?
THERE'S NO ONE LEFT -> flash or E into their team -> W -> hit Q hit Q hit alternate vs their squishy -> ulti when you can kill him, try to hit others -> spam everything when it's off cd. |
| | "I shall wait for you in death's halls, my Love (love love love love~)" |
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| greggy United Kingdom. February 27 2012 21:26. Posts 876 | Profile # |
On February 27 2012 05:39 iCanada wrote:
I have trouble with Riven when it comes to teamfights. I usually dominate the early game, and mid game, coming out witht he most farm 9 times out of 10, but then I feel like I just... teamfight wrong.
I dunno, I try to play her like a carry and wait for everyone else to engage, but it seems like people never engage unless it like 2v5 or I'm not there. I always have to initiate for anything to actually happen, but then I just get blown up.
Am I approaching it wrong? Is their some magical formula to make your teams bruisers play like bruisers and initiate?
-.-
This is exactly my problem as well. Thing is, even if a fight starts I usually have to q at least twice to get to anything after which people either just run away or they start focusing me and I can't escape because q is on cd. Or what we get initiated on and before long support/ad is on half hp and it's either we engage and all die or don't engage and 2/3 of my team die and the opposing team takes a tower or something.
I've even tried building riven a bit tankier asap, like merc->wriggle ->ga before BT (actually by mistake because I bought chain mail >_>) and you can actually hop in without dying but then you do no damage and farm really slow, so that's kinda shit. Meanwhile if I go BT -> ga that's a lot of time spent without much survivability and then somehow I still get my face smashed in (even though I could usually inflict some damage on them).
Maybe I'm just playing with morons. |
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| Sandster United States. February 28 2012 00:45. Posts 1675 | Profile # |
I've never seen any pros do the "squishy" AD build (wriggle/doran/brut -> BF sword -> BT/LW/GA). Certainly not in pro matches, but not even in solo queue streams. They always go for stuff like Frozen Mallet. I don't really understand it, since if you're going to pick a bruiser why would you pick Riven over one of the countless guys who are meant to be built tanky? They say Riven does tons of damage even with bruiser itemization, which just isn't true at all.
I wonder if this is why you guys are having trouble playing carry-style Riven - people *expect* Riven to be tanky and be the one in the front line, and are silently cursing you for not initiating, while you're doing the same back to them. |
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| koreasilver Canada. February 28 2012 01:07. Posts 7483 | Profile Blog # |
| I only see Westrice and Doublelift build like Navi when it comes to "pros". I've been seeing more and more people on random games build Riven like we do too, probably from seeing Navi's and Westrice's guides on solomid, but it's still pretty common to see people go wriggles -> mallet. I can kinda see how going phage early if you're maxing Q first can be good, but I'm really not buying the mallet rush thing. I'm honestly still not really into maxing Q first in lane. It's good for jungling, but idk. Last edit: 2012-02-28 01:08:32 |
| | "I don't think that the polls accurately reflect how far this race has swung in Romney's favor. I'm still expecting a landslide victory for Romney." - TL's very own Nostradamous, xDaunt |
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| iCanada Canada. February 28 2012 03:45. Posts 2859 | Profile # |
On February 27 2012 21:26 greggy wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 05:39 iCanada wrote:
I have trouble with Riven when it comes to teamfights. I usually dominate the early game, and mid game, coming out witht he most farm 9 times out of 10, but then I feel like I just... teamfight wrong.
I dunno, I try to play her like a carry and wait for everyone else to engage, but it seems like people never engage unless it like 2v5 or I'm not there. I always have to initiate for anything to actually happen, but then I just get blown up.
Am I approaching it wrong? Is their some magical formula to make your teams bruisers play like bruisers and initiate?
-.-
This is exactly my problem as well. Thing is, even if a fight starts I usually have to q at least twice to get to anything after which people either just run away or they start focusing me and I can't escape because q is on cd. Or what we get initiated on and before long support/ad is on half hp and it's either we engage and all die or don't engage and 2/3 of my team die and the opposing team takes a tower or something. I've even tried building riven a bit tankier asap, like merc->wriggle ->ga before BT (actually by mistake because I bought chain mail >_>) and you can actually hop in without dying but then you do no damage and farm really slow, so that's kinda shit. Meanwhile if I go BT -> ga that's a lot of time spent without much survivability and then somehow I still get my face smashed in (even though I could usually inflict some damage on them). Maybe I'm just playing with morons.
I don't think it is morons. I was playing fives with a couples buddies and I literally had to explain why Riven worked as a carry and how it worked. Made my friend Jungle Malphite and I grabbed a Pentakill.
It isn't morons, just ignorant players. Everyone think she supposed to be a bruiser for some reason. |
| | But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake |
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