Disclaimer: This guide is directed towards diamond+ players. If you're looking for fundamentals read this guide instead: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=170096 Special thanks to KangaRuthless for being awesome and casting my replays! Make sure to check out his channel ( http://www.youtube.com/user/KangaRuthless ) and subscribe! He does a real good job at casting and deserves some attention =).
Introduction: Hey, this is decaf again ~~ Some of you _might_ know me from the other two guides I wrote way back. + Show Spoiler +
Usually I'm top 8 masters on EU, right now I'm slumping a bit because I haven't gotten to play a whole lot so don't read too much into that, I'll be writing a guide instead~~
So, this is my guide about my rather new ZvP style. After the infestor nerf in ZvP I thought they were quite useless so I started fooling around with other stuff. Hydras, baneling drops, aggressive builds, but nothing seemed to work quite well till I finally got to roach ling muta. ZvP is my strongest matchup by far right now and I don't lose unless my opponent manages to hide tech or warpgates and I don't socut it in time.
That being said I'll start off. Basic Build Order: + Show Spoiler +
Against FFE: Against protoss I do this opener every game on every map (except xel naga, where I do 14 14).
9 overlord 12 pool 15 overlord 15 queen + 4lings 19 hatch 2nd queen (start it after the queen's inject when your hatchery is halfway done and send your first queen down to your hatchery) ~32 3rd hatchery @~6min double gas in main @~7min evo chamber, roach warren @~8:45min 3rd, 4th gas gas spent on: ling speed->+1ranged attack->lair->roach speed (with as many roaches as you need mixed in) note: if I don't expect an all in I will take my 5th and 6th gas the second my 3rd finishes, if I do I wait till I defended it properly
Basically it's an early pool transitioning into an expansion. Nestea invented this build and I find it to be really good. It is safe vs just everything and quite economical as well and it can also give you autowins vs Nexus first builds (that's kinda rare though). If you stick to this BO on maps where a FFE is likely (shakuras, taldarim, antiga and some others) you'll be well off. Sac an overlord at 7:30 minutes to see what he's doing. Start making units at 8:30. If he does an all in and you haven't made any units by then you'll most likely lose. Even if your opponent does not all in it can be really good to make units, because you will be able to deny his third.
Against 1gate/3gate FE:
9 overlord 12 pool 15 overlord 15 queen + 4lings 19 hatch gas when pool is done 2nd queen (start it after the queen's inject when your hatchery is halfway done and send your first queen down to your hatchery) @100gas: ling speed @ 24gas: evo chamber @100gas: +1ranged attack @100gas: lair, 2nd gas Get the roach warren in time to have roaches ready at the 8minute mark Add 3rd and 4th gas when you reach 2 base saturation
I open this build on maps where I know he's not going for an FFE or where it's really unlikely. If I scout him doing the unexpected and go for a fast forge expand my reaction is to cancel the gas geyser or if I scout him last to simply not mine from it and continue with my vs FFE build. Basically it's the same build, I had to adjust it a little bit though. I'm getting gas when my pool is done (or when I scout he didn't go for FFE on iffy maps) and take my third at the 8 to 9 minute mark rather than the 5 minute mark. I take my second gas when I start my lair and my third and fourth gas when I have 2 base saturation (around the time when I'm taking my third). Sac an overlord at ~6minutes to scout what he's doing. Pushes are likely to come at the 8 minute mark.
What I spend my gas on: Whether I play vs FFE or one base into exansion builds, gas always goes into the same stuff: It's ling speed -> +1melee or +1ranged attacks -> lair -> roach speed. Obiously you will have to make some roaches at some point, but you'll have enough gas for that anyways and spine crawlers are really good vs protoss as well if you're very mineral heavy. For those who are unsure, I get my 3rd and 4th gas when I'm fully saturated on 2 base. If mutas indeed are the right option I will get my 5th and 6th gases asap. After getting the first batch of mutas I will get the +1 attack upgrade for flying units and will also keep upgrading my ground army as I go.
Scouting One of the advantages of the 12 pool 19 hatch build is that you can afford to send your first _2_ overlord to directions other than your natural. This is huge. Your lings will be so early that you're able to deal with cannon rushes even if you don't scout it. I still suggest placing your third overlord above your natural and in case you're getting suspicous send a drone just for good measure. On some maps sending one overlord out will suffice though (like ST or meta). Always try to get as many overlords as possible into the right position, you will need it. Additionally be active with the lings. Check for the locations you're going to get your third at. Proxy pylons are likely to be nearby (especially vs FFE).
When you are safe. It is not wise (and I don't recommend it) to get mutas blindly when you don't know what you're up to. You will outright lose to any all in, since 6 to 8 gates are the reason why mutas disappeared all of a sudden. After an all-in: If you survived an all in the game is practically over and you won. If for some reason the game goes on you can feel free to make mutas or just end the game
Realizing he's going to take a third: If he's not going for an all in but rather take a third and do a slight push (5gate robo might be an example) you can add mutas once you have enough roach ling and maybe spines to fend off his push. Or if you just scout him building his third nexus.
Robo tech: Make mutas. Simple as that, unless he goes for a real fast robo bay and will do some kind of 2-3 colossi push. But this is always off of an FFE and if you scout with an overseer you'll see it. Just get corruptors instead of hydras and prepare for the all in. The other case in which it is not a good idea to make mutas is when your opponent adds 7 or 8 gates, then you have to prepare for an extreme all in that can only be stopped with hydra support. Other than that robo tech is weak vs mutas.
Stargate tech: This one is tricky. Against 1 stargate it really depends on what he's doing. If he's really heavy on the vrays you can get mutas to clean em all up but you will have to rely on your spores/queens for a long time. Against 1 stargate pumping vrays I usually defend like that. If he instead goes very phoenix heavy it's iffy. You can go mutas if you have a ton of ressources saved up and you're sure to overpower his phoenix count, if you don't you're better off getting hydras. Most players tend to get like 4 to 5 phoenixes and then switch to robo tech, in that situation it's fine to make mutas as well. I don't really recommend using mutas unless you're sure your opponent quickly switches to robo tech. Against 2 stargates you must not build mutas. It's an all in and mutas don't work vs any kind of all in.
Your main goal is to prevent his third base. With this style I do double pronged attacks all the time. Send mutas into you opponent's mineral line and focus fire his third with roach ling at the same time. The second you kill his third you basically win the game. If you scout a lack of AA in his army comp you can also try to outright kill his army. If your opponent manages to get that third I think it's wise to transition into muta ling and go for a basetrade. You can also try to catch parts of his army off guard, because he will spread his army to deal with the mutas properly.
Basically there's two different situations given your opponent is not going for an allin: You're able to deny his third: If you manage to do that I suggest getting up to 4 bases and keep harassing non stop. Don't ever attack right into your opponent unless you're sure you can take it. The protoss player has to be going to all in you if he's not able to get his macro up. If you defend this all in (like any other all in) wihtout losing all your economy or something like that you have won the game. Get spines and the right army composition. Mutas are perfect scouts, you should always know exactly what your opponent is doing. You're not able to deny his third: On some maps it can be really hard to deny his third (like ST). In that case I suggest expanding like a madman, the fact that your opponent is getting a third gives you much more time. I find 3 base protoss to be retardedly strong, so I will almost always go for a basetrade in which case the extra bases all over the map will help you tremendously. If you feel like you can do it you can also try to go for the infestor broodlord roach combo, but I don't recommend it. You've already invested a serious amount of gas into mutalisks.
Basically this whole build revolves around wearing your opponent down - and mutas do a damn good job at it. The roaches' sole purpose is to carry you safely to the midgame, after that you're free to abuse the ability you gain from muta ling. Keep upgrading and if you can't fight the opposing army go for a basetrade and take the whole map.
Should you be getting the spire before or after you take the third? And do you need the extra 2 gasses to get up that critical amount of mutalisks quick enough. I don't condition it on getting my third or not. It's rather about being safe to do so or not. In most cases being safe means having that third up though, because against FFE I will take it at 5:30 and against 1gate/3gate into expanion I will take it at 8:00-9:00.
With the overseer buffed in the latest patch, would it be wise to skip the +1 and go straight for lair so you get quick access to scouting info and get the upgrade while the lair is morphing? Or would this impede the timings too much? It is always a good idea to get an overseer because it's really cheap now for what it does and sometimes your sacced overlord just doesn't see anything in which case I will get an overseer asap but my lair timing always remains the same.
On maps where it is hard to take a third, do you use the same strategy or do you resort to 2 base plays to keep his third down? It's a matter of style. For instance vs stargate play on tal'darim I'd go for a hydra nydus all in. Roach ling muta is my ultimate ZvP macro game goal, but I don't try go get to it no matter what. You have to be smart about what you do, if it's not the right place and time, do something else that fits the map/style of your opponent better.
Do you ever transition out of mutas or just mass them up with upgrades until he has to go for basetrade? The longer the game goes, the more mutas and thus lings I will add to the composition. The roaches' sole purpose is to keep me alive throughout the mid-game. Usually I'll have 2 evo chambers upgrading melee and carapace upgrades so lings (ultras, broodlings) will be even stronger. I don't think I ever upgraded the +2 ranged attacks upgrade with this style. In case of a basetrade you will need the mobility thus slowly getting rid of the roaches is a good idea. With this style I don't really transition into anything else, I just keep upgrading. If your army is too weak to fight the opponent's go for a basetrade.
Is there a reason why you go +1 before lair? I don't really see the point in getting a random +1 to melee or range, how do you decide which one to take? The reason why I get my +1 before lair is because all my timings are based on my lair timing. This is something I personally found out and it works really well for me. First off you will have upgrades faster, the +1 attack upgrade finishes by the time an all in would come (or shortly after that) and you will be able to get your second upgrade faster. Now the reason why I get the upgrade before lair is because it buys me some more time. I always get my second gas when I start my lair to keep smoothly producing (roaches and roach speed). So when I get my lair earlier it also means I will have to get gas earlier and buy the upgrades earlier. My economy simply won't be as good as when I waited a little bit longer. Usually when I do ling speed -> upgrade -> lair it will work out so my roach warren is ready before the lair finishes, I've started my ugrade and I can get some roaches. It's just better imo. I worked a long time on the gas timings and I found this to be the best way to manage it. As for +1 melee or +1 ranged attacks: It's personal preference. Julyzerg gets the +1melee, NesTea gets the +1 ranged attacks. I started off doing julyzerg's style (who gave me the inspiration to start this build in the first place), but the +1 melee is rather weak vs all ins, where I will be very roach heavy. Nowadays I will always get +1 ranged attacks and then switch to melee and carapace upgrades.
http://drop.sc/86186 - SFTO|GruntT ~#220 on ladder, playing vs one base into expansion http://drop.sc/86185 - GM toss (tinToss), scouts spire and tries to counterreact on TD cross (no mutas were made) http://drop.sc/86184 - GM toss (imakki), taldarim cross, gets 3 bases up http://drop.sc/86183 - opp going for DT into archon immortal while taking a 3rd http://drop.sc/86182 - GM toss (dRw), going for robo into double stargate http://drop.sc/86187 - LiquidHero (I think), just for the hell of it (or: why 14 14 sucks)
If you like this cast go ahead and check out his channel http://www.youtube.com/user/KangaRuthless and don't forget to subscribe, because his casting is actually really good :>
Last edit: 2012-02-01 19:55:51
"Caffeine is ridiculous right now" -RZA
jtixs United Kingdom. October 21 2011 17:32. Posts 150
This looks pretty interesting and the guide is really well written,
will watch the replays later but I have a few questions.
when do you feel is a good time to get your 3rd/4th, i would imagine to get your 3rd when your mutas are out, or if you hold the 2 base push. but this could be wrong.
On October 21 2011 17:32 jtixs wrote: when do you feel is a good time to get your 3rd/4th, i would imagine to get your 3rd when your mutas are out, or if you hold the 2 base push. but this could be wrong.
(or when I scout he didn't go for FFE on iffy maps) and take my third at the 8 to 9 minute mark rather than the 5 minute mark.
Seems to be 3rd at 5 minutes vs forge expand, 8 or 9 or so vs 1-3 gate expand (probably depending on whether or not it was 1 or 3 gate expand).
jtixs United Kingdom. October 21 2011 18:17. Posts 150
This guide is exactly where I want it to be. It is not a gimmicky build so there's nothing new or fancy about it, if you don't like standard play go read a different guide. I intentionally didn't put in an overload of information because there already is guides that do that, like the Art of ZvP thread by Zerg~Legend. It's a guide directed towards people struggling in the matchup and looking for standard play. I have purposely not included any kind of cheesy play by the protoss player because it's simply out of place.
I've listed all essential timings and if you feel it's not enough go ahead and read other guides like the one I already mentioned. It is useless to post everything all over again if it has already been written down and at that point I'd just be stealing from someone.
I expect my readership to be smart about what they do anyways, so I'm not going to state the obvious.
And for the record, an opening that transitions into a composition while discussing certain contingencies equals a guide.
I've been thinking about doing something like this, not the build since i open 14 pool 16 hatch in ZvP, but typically against an FFE you get to the 3 base roach ling, after that I usually transition into baneling drops but I wondered if getting mutas instead would be viable. The spire only costs as much as the drop tech alone and on 6 gas you can get a fair share of mutas out. I've never seen pro zergs do it though, against stargate openers it might be even better than robo because you can get the 2-3 corrupters needed to deny the phoenix and then swarm mutas, plus you can dump minerals into extra lings since colossi will be delayed. I'll give it a try
Chaosvuistje Netherlands. October 21 2011 19:37. Posts 2548
I've been struggling with ZvP a lot lately due to my wide variety of timing pushes and all ins failing even though I get economic advantages through hatch first openings against forge first and even nexus first builds. So I have a lot of questions lined up for you.
1. When you have mapcontrol with the mutalisks, do you take an agressive fourth and fifth and tech to hive or do you stay on lair tech?
2. When do you take your third and fourth gasses so you can have a continious flood of roaches coming out? I haven't played around with that Nestea opening but by now I'm willing to try anything out.
3. With the overseer buffed in the latest patch, would it be wise to skip the +1 and go straight for lair so you get quick access to scouting info and get the upgrade while the lair is morphing? Or would this impede the timings too much?
4. Should you be getting the spire before or after you take the third? And do you need the extra 2 gasses to get up that critical amount of mutalisks quick enough.
5. Say you scout a stargate, what means do you use to ensure that you get mapcontrol without committing to a unit like the mutalisk that is risky to use against phoenixes? Should you go for a hydralisk/infestor timing off of 3 base or does that open you up too much for a collosus techswitch?
6. On maps where it is hard to take a third, do you use the same strategy or do you resort to 2 base plays to keep his third down?
7. Against a blink stalker timing, do you just ditch this whole strategy alltogether and go for infestor play regardless?
8. Air attack/ carapace upgrades, yes or no and when?
9. Would you be willing to collect more ZvP replays and post them in this thread?
Eagerly awaiting your reply
Follow me on @raamedia, updates on good TL threads and SC2 news. And also webdevelopment ^^
Wow, that's quite a bunch of quetions and it looks like ZvP is not as clear to some people as I thought it would be. I got school in like an hour so I'm not sure if I got the time to update the thread right now, but I will definitely do a massive update when I get home.
edit: answered all of em
Last edit: 2011-10-21 20:28:55
"Caffeine is ridiculous right now" -RZA
Chaosvuistje Netherlands. October 21 2011 20:51. Posts 2548
Thanks for the quick answers! There were definitely a couple of new things in here for me. Especially the second overlord being able to just spread out to the map sooner for easier scouting. Very interresting!
Will be using this opening for my next couple of games, thanks again!
Follow me on @raamedia, updates on good TL threads and SC2 news. And also webdevelopment ^^
ALPINA Lithuania. October 21 2011 22:36. Posts 3773
I watched both replays and 12 pool opening was bad, because vs non FE build you won't do any damage, and vs. FE the cannon is going to be in time.. Is it only to kill nexus first opponent?
Also roach muta unit composition is very supply inefficient, because both roaches and mutas do very little damage and take a lot of supply.
But overall you could just as well get drops and for the price of mutas make drops into opponents base and it would be the same thing.
And if the map is with 3rd easy to defend you should lose vs. strong colossus push I think cause muta won't really help in direct battle.
You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity
Mutas are incredibly supply efficient, roaches aren't though. If you go heavier roaches you will have less mutas at some point. This comp is definitely more supply efficient then let's say heavy roach compositions are.
The 12 pool is an extremely safe opening while you don't sacrifice a lot of economy. Sure, a hatch first is a little better, but I wouldn't take the risk. You also have to take into consideration that you get your first round of larvae much earlier so it might even be better, I'm not sure - no one has made charts on it. The fact that nestea uses this opening should be enough varification anyways.
And mutas are quite strong in battles if supported by roach ling. I don't think it's the composition's fault if you lose to such a colossus attack rather than your own.
Will be using this opening for my next couple of games, thanks again!
Let us know how it works out for you
Last edit: 2011-10-21 23:44:59
"Caffeine is ridiculous right now" -RZA
Mjolnir_ United States. October 22 2011 00:36. Posts 4
Great build and breakdown! I use 11 pool 18 hatch for every T or P and still use a 11pool roach opener vs Z. 12 is a nice change of pace and I like the larvae not being idle. NICE POST!
Peace is a lie, there is only passion
1Lamb1Rice United States. October 22 2011 00:41. Posts 435
On October 21 2011 22:36 Alpina wrote: I think that's July style ZvP =)
I watched both replays and 12 pool opening was bad, because vs non FE build you won't do any damage, and vs. FE the cannon is going to be in time.. Is it only to kill nexus first opponent?
Also roach muta unit composition is very supply inefficient, because both roaches and mutas do very little damage and take a lot of supply.
But overall you could just as well get drops and for the price of mutas make drops into opponents base and it would be the same thing.
And if the map is with 3rd easy to defend you should lose vs. strong colossus push I think cause muta won't really help in direct battle.
Drops are very hard to poke with as losing units/OLs is highly likely versus just flying mutas in and out maintaining map control. Having drops doesn't really give you map control, it's more of a viable option of having map control.
twitch.tv/lambnrice @LambNRice
sc2effort United States. October 22 2011 00:53. Posts 245
thanks for info, seems like a good strat for me to try as i have been having trouble against P. also, i really like this advice:
[B] but I don't try go get to it no matter what. You have to be smart about what you do, if it's not the right place and time, do something else that fits the map/style of your opponent better.
alot of times i over commit to something cuz i have it in my head that thats what i'm going to do, i need to learn to changes things based on the the situation at hand.
never cook bacon naked.
SeeDLiNg United States. October 22 2011 02:12. Posts 667
This is a good guide and it's pretty much the style that should be played now with some of the early robo warp prism builds. As zergs are finding out, it's extremely difficult to defend against the multi prong warp prism attacks without muta.
The guide is correct in stating that defending the 6-7 gate is first and foremost and then transitioning to muta when they are going earlier robo (with less gateways) or taking early 3rd. The muta, roach, ling gives you the ability to base trade too against protoss (requires a lot of spines though). And as long as you engage with your ground units right before the mutas go in, the +1 or +2 air attack with the glade damage can wreck even stalker collossi armies.
One thing worth mentioning too is once they go archon or mass phoenix you have to transition to hive.tech with infestor, but alot of the time you will just win outright with muta ling roach.
Douillos France. October 22 2011 02:48. Posts 2431
On October 21 2011 17:26 decaf wrote: Disclaimer: This guide is directed towards diamond+ players. If you're looking for fundamentals read this guide instead: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=170096 Introduction: Hey, this is decaf again ~~ Some of you _might_ know me from the other two guides I wrote way back. + Show Spoiler +
Usually I'm top 8 masters on EU, right now I'm slumping a bit because I haven't gotten to play a whole lot so don't read too much into that, I'll be writing a guide instead~~
So, this is my guide about my rather new ZvP style. After the infestor nerf in ZvP I thought they were quite useless so I started fooling around with other stuff. Hydras, baneling drops, aggressive builds, but nothing seemed to work quite well till I finally got to roach ling muta. ZvP is my strongest matchup by far right now and I don't lose unless my opponent manages to hide tech or warpgates and I don't socut it in time.
That being said I'll start off. Basic Build Order: + Show Spoiler +
Against protoss I do this opener every game on every map (except xel naga, where I do 14 14). http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250539 Basically it's an early pool transitioning into an expansion. Nestea invented this build I find it to be really good. It is safe vs just everything and quite economical as well and it can also give you autowins vs Nexus first builds (that's kinda rare though). If you stick to this BO on maps where a FFE is likely (shakuras, taldarim, antiga and some others) you'll be well off. Personally I feel it's always good to play a style that is meant to counter a 7gate all in, because if he doesn't all in you will have enough stuff to deny his third forever and ifhe does you're prepared. You'll always be ahead economically as well. Sac an overlord at 7 minutes. Start making units at 8:30.
Basically it's the same build, I had to adjust it a little bit though. I'm getting gas when my pool is done (or when I scout he didn't go for FFE on iffy maps) and take my third at the 8 to 9 minute mark rather than the 5 minute mark. I take my second gas when I start my lair. Sac an overlord at ~6minutes. Pushes are likely to come at the 8 minute mark.
Whether I play vs FFE or one base into exansion builds, gas always goes into the same stuff: It's ling speed -> +1melee or +1ranged attacks -> lair -> roach speed. Obiously you will have to make some roaches at some point, but you'll have enough gas for that anyways and spine crawlers are really good vs protoss as well if you're very mineral heavy. For those who are unsure, I get my 3rd and 4th gas when I'm fully saturated on 2 base. If mutas indeed are the right option I will get my 5th and 6th gases asap. After getting the first batch of mutas I will get the +1 attack upgrade and will also keep upgrading my ground army as I go.
One of the advantages of the 12 pool 19 hatch build is that you can afford to send your first _2_ overlord to directions other than your natural. This is huge. Your lings will be so early that you're able to deal with cannon rushes even if you don't scout it. I still suggest placing your third overlord above your natural and in case you're getting suspicous send a drone just for good measure. On some maps sending one overlord out will suffice though (like ST or meta). Always try to get as many overlords as possible into the right position, you will need it. Additionally be active with the lings. Check for the locations you're going to get your third at. Proxy pylons are likely to be nearby (especially vs FFE).
When you are safe. It is not wise (and I don't suggest it) to get mutas blindly when you don't know what you're up to. You will outright lose to any all in, since 6 to 8 gates are the reason why mutas disappeared all of a sudden. After an all-in: If you survived an all in the game is practically over and you won. If for some reason the game goes on you can feel free to make mutas or just end the game Realizing he's going to take a third: If he's not going for an all in but rather take a third and do a slight push (5gate robo might be an example) you can add mutas once you have enough roach ling and maybe spines to fend of his push. Or if you just scout him building his third nexus. Robo tech: Make mutas. Simple as that. The only case in which it is not a good idea to make mutas is when your opponent adds 7 or 8 gates, then you have to prepare for an extreme all in that can only be stopped with hydra support. Other than that robo tech is weak vs mutas. Stargate tech: Against 1stargate pumping voidrays I think it's definitely a good idea to kill all the voidrays with mutas (after you defended with spores/queens). Against phoenixes it's kinda iffy. Most protoss don't build more than 4 or 5 of them so it should be fine. Vs 2 stargates it's not very wise to go for mutas (it's an all-in anyways).
With this style I be doing double pronged attacks all the time. Send mutas into you opponent's mineral line and focus fire his third with roach ling at the same time. The second you kill his third you basically win the game. If you scout a lack of AA in his army comp you can also try to outright kill his army. If your opponent manages to get that third I think it's wise to transition into muta ling and go for a basetrade.
Basically there's two different situations given your opponent is not going for an allin: You're able to deny his third: If you manage to do that I suggest getting up to 4 bases and keep harassing non stop. Don't ever attack right into your opponent unless you're sure you can take it. The protoss player has to be going to all in you if he's not able to get his macro up. If you defend this all in (like any other all in) wihtout losing all your economy or something like that you have won the game. Get spines and the right army composition. Mutas are perfect scouts, you should always know exactly what your opponent is doing. You're not able to deny his third: On some maps it can be really hard to deny his third (like ST). In that case I suggest expanding like a madman, the fact that your opponent is getting a third gives you much more time. I find 3 base protoss to be retardedly strong, so I will almost always go for a basetrade in which case the extra bases all over the map will help you tremendously. If you feel like you can do it you can also try to go for the infestor broodlord roach combo, but I don't recommend it. You've already invested a serious amount of gas into mutalisks.
Should you be getting the spire before or after you take the third? And do you need the extra 2 gasses to get up that critical amount of mutalisks quick enough. I don't condition it on getting my third or not. It's rather about being safe to do so or not. In most cases being safe means having that third up though, because against FFE I will take it at 5:30 and against 1gate/3gate into expanion I will take it at 8:00-9:00.
With the overseer buffed in the latest patch, would it be wise to skip the +1 and go straight for lair so you get quick access to scouting info and get the upgrade while the lair is morphing? Or would this impede the timings too much? It is always a good idea to get an overseer because it's really cheap now for what it does and sometimes your sacced overlord just doesn't see anything in which case I will get an overseer asap but my lair timing always remains the same.
On maps where it is hard to take a third, do you use the same strategy or do you resort to 2 base plays to keep his third down? It's a matter of style. For instance vs stargate play on tal'darim I'd go for a hydra nydus all in. Roach ling muta is my ultimate ZvP macro game goal, but I don't try go get to it no matter what. You have to be smart about what you do, if it's not the right place and time, do something else that fits the map/style of your opponent better.
I was just thinking of this composition as a reaction to the toss getting his third base up while I was in the car. Happy to see you tested it for me Time to ladder!
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jtixs United Kingdom. October 21 2011 17:32. Posts 150
