Before starting, I just want to say that I am a Zerg player, so this is not sad zealot tears that you are going to read: I am just giving my point of view on the current Tempest and its design.
There is a lot of post around the Oracle, why it is a bad unit, why it is a good units, I think people are missing what should be critized : the Oracle has a nice design, weither it is strong enough yet is another question. On the other side, the Tempest, the new capital starship, seems to get the approval of the entire protoss community, except the few nostalgic that loved their Carriers. I will try to explain why I think that the design of the unit is flawed. I think everybody should consider that the stats might change a lot so it’s pointless to discuss them : the only thing that matter is the purpose of the units and how it is supposed to fulfill that purpose.
But first let’s introduce the Tempest:
As it is now the Tempest comes from the Stargate and requires a Starfleet beacon. It has 300 health, 150 shield, deal 35 ground damage and 22 Psi-storm size aoe air damage.
It’s a capital starship which means: it is slow, strong damage output, strong HP/Shield, long time to build, high tech required.
So as you can see in the video, the Tempest is supposed to be a strong anti air unit, especially designed to counter any muta play from a zerg player. This design is flawed: a capital starship cannot fulfill this role. Here is why.
First, the Tempest is slow (since it’s a capital starship). So you can kite it or even ignore it. For example, a small force of Mutalisk will just have to harass something else, and with their superior speed they will never be in danger from the Tempest, except if they decide to attack it head on, which is pretty dumb. Against Terran, the Tempest will also be useless against Vikings because, since it is slow, unlike old school corsairs, they will be kited to death just like the cattlebruisers (except Battlecruisers have the Yamato canon).
Another point about the Tempest is that, again since it’s a capital starship, it is slow to build and require high tech. When a Zerg decide to do a muta switch, it is what it is a switch, which means the Zerg instantly build a certain number of muta to take his opponent off guard, and the zerg will most likely switch back to something else as soon as the mutas did their job or are countered. For exemple, look at the game between Mana and Stephano on Tal’Darim Altar for the final of the ESCW. Stephano instantly build 16-18 mutas, then harass Mana’s expand and then switch back to an infestors roachs heavy composition. In this situation, the Tempest is useless again: first you got to build the Fleet Beacon, which you will not have build preemptively because it only unlock the Tempest (no Mothership and no Carrier anymore) ; then you have to actually build the Tempest, and that takes forever in comparison to the mutas. Even if you scout or sense the muta switch (which is pretty hard considering most zerg build spire in order to get corruptors in ZvP), the Tempest will not be available in time to defend your worker line.
To sums things up: to defend against fast units such as the mutas, you need mobility or space control (high range like a tank or a thor); and to defend against a fast tech switches, you need a unit that can be available quick in order to respond to your opponent's move. There is a reason why anti air splash units in BW were low / mid tech, low food and high mobility units (corsair) or high range with decent mobility (valkirie) : that’s because you need a starfighter to face a starfighter.
A capital Starship, in its very design, is exactly the opposite of those two things: it is slow and it takes a long time to build. The current tempest can only be added to the death ball and attack head on: It cannot help to defend against any harassment (unlike the corsair), it cannot offer a quick respond to any kind of air tech switch.
So sure, the new Tempest is pimp, with a nice and shiny pwe-pwe attack, and no one will ever try to muta ball and takes you head on with them on the map: they will only be a nice add to a death ball, which is pretty weak considering the death ball is already quite deadly (the muta ball can still goes from one base to another and crush your defense, tech structure, kill your probe and nexus freely, and the tempest will do nothing but watch them). A capital starship cannot and will never fulfill the role the corsairs had and the Tempest will most likely get crushed by battle cruiser, Vikings or Corruptors (since it has such a weak air to air dps balanced by that huge aoe).
Miss me already?
I suppose a lot of things can be done in order to make a good unit out of the Tempest : - Buffing his range, but it will be imba in my opinion. - Giving the Tempest some kind of mobility boost (like the battle cruiser, but it will be unoriginal) - Giving the Tempest a air-trap-net kinda spell, that snare or catch any air units that go through it.
But as it now, I suppose making the Tempest and removing the Carrier is just replacing uselessness with uselessness.
Discuss !
Last edit: 2011-10-24 21:54:22
Yaotzin South Africa. October 24 2011 20:45. Posts 4280
You correctly mention that it's pointless discussing damage numbers and whatnot, but you then criticise the unit design by mentioning numbers - build time, range, speed etc.
Other than that, some things I disagree with
First, the Tempest is slow (since it’s a capital starship). So you can kite it or even ignore it. For example, a small force of Mutalisk will just have to harass something else, and with their superior speed they will never be in danger from the Tempest, except if they decide to attack it head on, which is pretty dumb. Against Terran, the Tempest will also be useless against Vikings because, since it is slow, unlike old school corsairs, they will be kited to death just like the cattlebruisers (except Battlecruisers have the Yamato canon).
Pure tempests would be dumb though, and not something a toss would ever do. The obvious idea to me, is to use phoenix to poke at/deflect the harassing mutas, then have the Tempest nearby as a sort of safe haven/no-go zone. The problem at the moment with using phoenix against mutas is there is no safe haven - the mutas just plain win in a straight up fight. And you can't kite forever or they'll stop and rape your mineral line. With a Tempest over your mineral line though....
I agree on the Terran issue but I think that is a viking problem - their range is absurd and will hopefully get re-assessed.
Another point about the Tempest is that, again since it’s a capital starship, it is slow to build and require high tech. When a Zerg decide to do a muta switch, it is what it is a switch, which means the Zerg instantly build a certain number of muta to take his opponent off guard, and the zerg will most likely switch back to something else as soon as the mutas did their job or are countered. For exemple, look at the game between Mana and Stephano on Tal’Darim Altar for the final of the ESCW. Stephano instantly build 16-18 mutas, then harass Mana’s expand and then switch back to an infestors roachs heavy composition. In this situation, the Tempest is useless again:
They wouldn't be useless though (they shoot down, they're useless against nothing), and they would be well worth the cost. 15+ mutas is a heavy investment, if a few Tempests can deflect them, you're golden.
Last edit: 2011-10-24 20:46:53
Zephirdd Brazil. October 24 2011 20:46. Posts 4520
Why are you assuming that it will be slow as you say? "Capital" does not automatically makes the ship slow and vulnerable; Remember that we are talking about Protosses here. They could very well create a huge, high mobility ship. Also, the Tempest is significantly smaller than a BC, Carrier or Mothership.
Also, 35 AtG damage justifies getting it even when there is no mutalisks in the game. Think of a thor shot.
I do agree that it requires a higher range(by the looks of the video) in order to effectively shut down mutalisks, but they at least make mass muta impossible for actually fighting instead of the actual "once-I-get-40-I-can-kill-everything-except-40-phoenixes".
♥ The world needs more hearts! ♥
SwampZero Greece. October 24 2011 20:49. Posts 350
On October 24 2011 20:46 Zephirdd wrote: Why are you assuming that it will be slow as you say? "Capital" does not automatically makes the ship slow and vulnerable; Remember that we are talking about Protosses here. They could very well create a huge, high mobility ship. Also, the Tempest is significantly smaller than a BC, Carrier or Mothership. Also, 35 AtG damage justifies getting it even when there is no mutalisks in the game. Think of a thor shot.
I do agree that it requires a higher range(by the looks of the video) in order to effectively shut down mutalisks, but they at least make mass muta impossible for actually fighting instead of the actual "once-I-get-40-I-can-kill-everything-except-40-phoenixes".
Thor has the highest ground dps in the entire game though. Granted, the numbers aren't final, but someone did the calculation earlier - Tempest has ~15.5 ground dps.
"The Protoss ball of death is already too strong, so Protoss doesn't really need new units in HotS." - David Kim, Blizzcon 2011
Clefairy New Zealand. October 24 2011 20:50. Posts 1239
Most people agree that the carrier was a useless unit with someone would only get if they were being BM.
Check this thread out. It suggests Protoss air play with the new HoTS units and actually looks like a reasonable attempt at theorycrafting, instead of a thread saying 'i think this unit is bad and here's why'
GinjaNinja.661 EU server. I'd like to thank my sh*t keyyboard for always messing up my 'Y's
WhiteDog France. October 24 2011 20:53. Posts 3541
On October 24 2011 20:45 Yaotzin wrote: You correctly mention that it's pointless discussing damage numbers and whatnot, but you then criticise the unit design by mentioning numbers - build time, range, speed etc.
First, the Tempest is slow (since it’s a capital starship). So you can kite it or even ignore it. For example, a small force of Mutalisk will just have to harass something else, and with their superior speed they will never be in danger from the Tempest, except if they decide to attack it head on, which is pretty dumb. Against Terran, the Tempest will also be useless against Vikings because, since it is slow, unlike old school corsairs, they will be kited to death just like the cattlebruisers (except Battlecruisers have the Yamato canon).
Pure tempests would be dumb though, and not something a toss would ever do. The obvious idea to me, is to use phoenix to poke at/deflect the harassing mutas, then have the Tempest nearby as a sort of safe haven/no-go zone. The problem at the moment with using phoenix against mutas is there is no safe haven - the mutas just plain win in a straight up fight. And you can't kite forever or they'll stop and rape your mineral line. With a Tempest over your mineral line though....
I agree on the Terran issue but I think that is a viking problem - their range is absurd and will hopefully get re-assessed.
Another point about the Tempest is that, again since it’s a capital starship, it is slow to build and require high tech. When a Zerg decide to do a muta switch, it is what it is a switch, which means the Zerg instantly build a certain number of muta to take his opponent off guard, and the zerg will most likely switch back to something else as soon as the mutas did their job or are countered. For exemple, look at the game between Mana and Stephano on Tal’Darim Altar for the final of the ESCW. Stephano instantly build 16-18 mutas, then harass Mana’s expand and then switch back to an infestors roachs heavy composition. In this situation, the Tempest is useless again:
They wouldn't be useless though (they shoot down, they're useless against nothing), and they would be well worth the cost. 15+ mutas is a heavy investment, if a few Tempests can deflect them, you're golden.
It's the idea of the unit that I am discussing : a capital starship, is high end of the tech tree (require fleet beacon) is slow to build and has a weak mobility with high HP / Shield and damage output (35 damage). You can tweak the number, but making it a 150 hp 100 shield fast unit would be changing the whole idea of the unit.
The problem of fenix is that you cannot mass them enough to face a muta ball - you rarely see 15 fenix fighting 15 muta, more like 8-10 fenix max. If the fenix try to pull the mutas to the Tempest, the muta can just crush the fenix and ignore the Tempest.
On October 24 2011 20:46 Zephirdd wrote: Why are you assuming that it will be slow as you say? "Capital" does not automatically makes the ship slow and vulnerable; Remember that we are talking about Protosses here. They could very well create a huge, high mobility ship. Also, the Tempest is significantly smaller than a BC, Carrier or Mothership. Also, 35 AtG damage justifies getting it even when there is no mutalisks in the game. Think of a thor shot.
I do agree that it requires a higher range(by the looks of the video) in order to effectively shut down mutalisks, but they at least make mass muta impossible for actually fighting instead of the actual "once-I-get-40-I-can-kill-everything-except-40-phoenixes".
Thor has the highest ground dps in the entire game though. Granted, the numbers aren't final, but someone did the calculation earlier - Tempest has ~15.5 ground dps.
And the thor have a high range ground to air weapon, and that's why it excel in defending Terran's base from muta harass.
Last edit: 2011-10-24 20:56:04
Yaotzin South Africa. October 24 2011 20:53. Posts 4280
On October 24 2011 20:51 Darksoldierr wrote: I could be stupid and all but what stops the zerg to magicbox the tempest? Storm range AtA isn't that big of a splash
Magic boxing makes a Thor shot hit only one muta. Storm radius isn't huge, but it's enough that, I'm pretty sure, at least 9 mutas would be hit if they were boxed.
On October 24 2011 20:51 Darksoldierr wrote: I could be stupid and all but what stops the zerg to magicbox the tempest? Storm range AtA isn't that big of a splash
Because you have to fly right over them? And storm range splash (if that is what you meant) is quite good.
Last edit: 2011-10-24 20:55:16
Orcasgt24 Canada. October 24 2011 20:55. Posts 1268
On October 24 2011 20:53 WhiteDog wrote: It's the idea of the unit that I am discussing : a capital starship, is high end of the tech tree (require fleet beacon) is slow to build and has a weak mobility with high HP / Shield and damage output (35 damage). You can tweak the number, but making it a 150 hp 100 shield fast unit would be changing the whole idea of the unit.
Yes of course, I wasn't saying the entire analysis was flawed due to that, but they do certainly have room to tweak things.
The problem of fenix is that you cannot mass them enough to face a muta ball - you rarely see 15 fenix fighting 15 muta, more like 8-10 fenix max. If the fenix try to pull the mutas to the Tempest, the muta can just crush the fenix and ignore the Tempest.
Phoenixs have better range and speed.....they can kite forever. The only reason this doesn't happen is if you try it your mineral line will vanish while you pop a few mutas. The Tempest shuts this down.
Maybe muta switches would still be possible - that would be fine really. But it would be much, much harder. One mistake and you take enough aoe to instagib your entire muta flock. Not aoe over time like storm, but instant death.
Zer atai United States. October 24 2011 20:59. Posts 595
![[image loading]](http://images.wikia.com/starcraft/images/a/a9/Corsair_SC1_Art1.jpg)
SwampZero Greece. October 24 2011 20:49. Posts 350
