On October 25 2011 21:11 The99 wrote: I don't post much at all... but hearing people post about Browder making terran "imba" because of his own bias towards that race are fucking stupid (it's the truth). Terran t-shirts that the staff are wearing as evidence of this, really?!?!?
Do people not understand that the balancing games is a ridiculously hard task? I mean you guys act like terran has been the dominant race from the beginning till now. Each race has had its time on the top.
Give the guy a break. He gives his honest answers and I would hope people would respect the fact that for the most part he doesn't bullshit you. As the lead game designer he needs to take into consideration all types of players not just the very top. I had no idea that the success of the game solely relies on the very top echelon of players.
Blizzard is a company that makes games. If they are making a profit obviously they are doing something right. I would go as far as to argue that as long as they are making profits they have the gamers' best interest in mind. When the hell did people suddenly have the expectation that companies should be selfless bodies held to some kind of virtuous standard.
I mean damn guys, stop to think for a moment what kinds of motivations Browder has for his actions and thought processes before you just judge him based on your own biases.
If all you're posts are as well written as this then I think I'd marry you
I was going along nicely with him until the LAN question came up. Why can't they make a Tourney version for MLG and IPL and whoever, and charge them 50k for the service for a year? Or a one time fee per expansion? Makes me sad for esports
Probably because this LAN version would be leaked and then everyone could use it.
Good interview was a little disappointed that he dodged the Terran op and your ladder maps suck compared to gsl maps questions. However it does seem like he understands the value of the community and it would to them using pro/community feedback more so then before.
On October 25 2011 18:11 Toadvine wrote: Well, at least Browder's sincere in the "you should go back to Brood War if you don't like this" statements, always nice to see the PR bullshit dropped for a bit. Still, it's really worrying that he doesn't see any major problems with the current design of the game. Both Protoss and Zerg look like ticking time-bombs, with Protoss having the possibility to be completely awful come HotS, and Zerg being insanely oveprowered with their new stuff.
I also don't like his way of dealing with the "deathball" problem. You should do that by introducing more harassment opportunities and units that work well in small numbers, so having all your shit in one place actually becomes a bad idea. Not by designing units that CAN'T be used in an army, like Shredders or Oracles.
On October 25 2011 13:45 Raiznhell wrote: Honestly there's too much whining about Terran specifically. Like honestly aside from Code S no other tournament is very Terran heavy AT ALL. Also nobody points to the fact that Code S has a lot of issues with routing bad players out of Code S and getting good players in. The whole tournament system pre-Ro16 is entirely flawed.
Just look at how Code S became filled with Terran in the first place. Because Code A got stacked with Good players that belonged in Code S like MMA, Ganzi, Mvp and Bomber to name a few. They all climbed their way into Code S however due to the flaw of up and downs not all the bad players were routed out.
But now look at Code A full of Zerg and Protoss who are all going to make their shot for Code S and is now also getting refilled by more Protoss and Zerg specifically 4 foreigner Protoss and Zerg players and what do you think is going to happen? Code S may start to balance out or even become dry of Terrans.
People Jump on the hate train way too fast and never have patience. Look at MLG Orlando, IEM, IPL and now the Korean Weekly. All going to have Protoss and Zerg Champions and not even have Terran make it to the finals. No good Terrans some have said? WHAT? PuMA, Bomber, TheSTC, forGG (who's playing fantastically) Taeja? all not good Terrans? Get outta here.
Another thing to touch on is look at BW. 99% of players would argue that BW is almost completely balanced and is the most balanced game in the world involving 3+race/faction differential. Yet still....guess what Terran is pretty damn dominant. Protoss and Zergs catch their time every now and then but for the most part you would see Fantasy or Flash or going way back BoxeR, NaDa, OOV even lesser Terrans like Midas dominate a ton.
There was a point in BW where Terran literally seemed unbeatable until eventually someone who figure one little thing out. Yet in SC2 everyone points to Terran being imba when the only real Tournament Terran is seeing a lot of success in is Code S which again is only Terran heavy due to Code A being filled with Z and P right now and a flawed up and down system.
I guarantee you that is a player in SC2 loses a game in the current state it's because he deserved to and he could have won had he played better.
I read stuff like this, and I marvel at how good the human mind is at lying to itself. You probably really believe this to be sound reasoning, which is a bit depressing. But hey, anything is better than admitting that Terran is too good, because that would hurt the precious egos of Terran players who lose to Zerg and Protoss on the ladder.
I mean, come on. There are 19 Terrans in Code S because "there just happened to be awesome Terran players in Code A"? I guess you're one of the people who believe that there are 15 top5 Terrans in Code S, and that they all deserve their spots because of how amazing they are.
I don't even especially think ZvT is especially imbalanced, although it's way easier for an inferior Terran to beat a better Zerg than vice versa. However, to think Protoss is fine from their results in major tournaments and from watching how the games play out requires an amazing amount of denial.
I mean, wow, Protoss actually got Top2 in a tournament with no good ZvPer, and with most of the PvTs having one player cheese or just do retarded crap (like Bomber's "hidden expo" vs Sase on Shakuras or MKP's "24 Marines with no upgrades and 0 bunkers vs 6 Gate"). Awesome. All the while, even with all the "new Protoss hopes" in Code A, we still have 5 Protoss in Code S next season, and that's only because of MC getting a spot from Orlando.
And bringing up BW as an analogy is just so disingenuous. BW had long periods of one race dominating a given matchup, yes, but it wasn't just one race on top of everything constantly. BW winrate graphs have nice sinusoid shapes for almost all the matchups, while the SC2 graph only consistently shows one thing - Terran on top.
Adding to this, those that say Terran is dominant in BW are deluding themselves. True, the bonjwas are mostly Terran, but thats like saying Zerg is dominant because NesTea is a good player. If you look at PL statistics, it is 49%, 50%, 51% winrate, for T, Z, P respectively. That's pretty amazing if you ask me. Outside of Flash and Fantasy, Terrans aren't nearly as good and actually, there are a ton of Zergs who are really good and are better than the majority of Terran players.
This cannot be said enough: outside korea there has been no indication of protoss being the weaker race.
No indication of Protoss being the weaker race outside Korea in BW? o.O
In SC2 there's less and less of a division between "outside Korea" and "inside Korea" as more and more Korean players travel to international events, and more and more foreigners move to Korea to train and compete in GSL. And it's not like Protoss is doing especially well in foreign tournaments anyway. Even at Orlando like half the Top8 are Korean Terrans.
I cannot understand why people want to use so much time and energy on balance discussions. Its like everyone want to justify that their race is weaker so they have something to put it on when they loose.
The game is quite well balanced op to mid masters on all servers, and if you are below that you can always blame yourself for loosing, not game balance.
And even if you are top masters, and the game is not balanced, then look at it as a challenge and try to make some builds to shift the metagame, instead of going to the forums and start endless discussions.
Hmmm, my problem with the maps is not at all what they were talking about. My problem with it is that we're at a stupid situation for the spectator/player now. Which I think is a huge chunk of people. Blizzard is so slow with the maps that they forced tournaments to take control right... which isn't really a problem. However since there's no iccup the tournament maps do not go into ladder circulation.
So here I am, the average starcraft player/spectator, watching one set of maps and playing on another. That decreases my interest in both to be honest. I can't play on what the pros play on? I can't watch the pros play on what I play on?
Obviously I'm going a bit further than the situation is today because there's quite a few crossovers, but still. My ideal solution would be that blizzard accepted the situation and put in maps that have been tried in tournaments after a full gsl of it or 2mlgs or something. Keep in mind we never got the msl/osl/pl maps straight away either. Always took a bit of time and it would be fine if it took a bit more here, but this is getting silly.
At this point the GSL has 9 maps. 2 are current ladder maps, 2 are old ladder maps. 5 are maps I've never played because I only play ladder. If I counted wrong.. doesn't matter. MLG is a little closer to the ladder, but still far enough off that it's not great.
I WANT TO PLAY ON THE SAME MAPS I WATCH THE PROS PLAY. At least more or less. Easily fixable, no downside. I'm actually starting to think this is my biggest issue with sc2 at the moment.
How could they 'do something for tournaments' but not make lan work for everyone else. he says something about maps comings down from the server, but how would that be any different from tournaments? I like hes at least being honest like "Sorry no LAN", but still it feels like he doesn't actually say the real reason which is money.
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TedJustice Canada. October 25 2011 22:54. Posts 1321
On October 25 2011 22:48 simansh wrote: How could they 'do something for tournaments' but not make lan work for everyone else. he says something about maps comings down from the server, but how would that be any different from tournaments? I like hes at least being honest like "Sorry no LAN", but still it feels like he doesn't actually say the real reason which is money.
That's why I wish someone would bring up the LAN hack to them.
Right now pirates have LAN and we don't.
Grumbels Netherlands. October 25 2011 23:00. Posts 3422
it's one thing to ask a guy some questions that need long thought out intelligent answers, but it's another thing to have passive aggressive questions thrown at you for over 20 minutes. I know you guys just went solely off what the community wanted, but maybe so less hardball questions, instead of roasting him answers.
i mean the man built a brilliant game, he deserves some credit :/
when life gives you lemons, make banelings
TheHova United Kingdom. October 25 2011 23:04. Posts 2611
I guess i'm the only person on TL that doesn't hate Dustin Browder and thinks he's actually not the devil reincarnated. He's just trying to do his job the best he can and please everybody. Unfortunately pleasing everybody is never an easy job to do.
Good interview, my biggest take away is that there seems to be the faintest glimmer of hope that there could be a tournament solution in the future and that is GREAT news!!
Also, Browder was right, though, that spreading creep has turned out to be an AWESOME mechanic. I absolutely love creep tumors, overlord creep and the new effects of Nydus creep. It's such an amazing idea to bring to an RTS that I really can't imagine anyone other than Blizzard being able to come up with it.
I do agree on that i would rather see all the races have ''too many choices'' then reducing Terran's choices. Zerg are alright, and they will really benefit from the new units. Not too sure about Protoss, their units seem a little wierd but we will see ^^.
Just make P/Z as versatile as T without removing T's versatility seems like a good idea.
Tired of people saying T has too many options instead of P/Z having to few ^^.
Last edit: 2011-10-25 23:31:26
Furthermore, I think the Collosi should be removed! (Zorgaz -Terran/AbrA-Random) Guineapigs <3