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| YumYumGranola Canada. October 25 2011 11:01. Posts 254 | Profile # |
The reception to the new Toss units has ranged from luke-warm to absolute hatred. Common complaints are that unit design is terrible and that they're not even useful. While I agree that including Ditto in SC2 was not the best decision in terms of overall game design, I have a large problem with people not thinking this units are good. In fact, I think that these units could have the most potential out of all the new units introduced in HoTS.
REPLICANT:
+ Show Spoiler +This unit which has received nothing but hate is probably the most widely regarded as a useless unit. Weirdly enough however this unit is the one I have the most to talk about. Many people have complained that due to the fact that the Replicant costs more than almost every unit it replicates that it must be useless. This is an EXTREMELY shortsighted analysis, as if the toss would simply use units as part of their A-Move deathball. What makes this unit so powerful is the ability to utilize their opponents SPELLCASTERS against them in combination with the additional Protoss spellcasters and units. Basically this one unit means that the Protoss army has at it's disposal every single spellcaster in the game. vs. Terran: (Credit to Gyro_SC2's thread Replicant are TvP BIOCounter?) + Show Spoiler +
The utility of the Replicant is almost entirely based on one simple fact: If the Terran gets their EMP's off, they win, if they don't, they lose. In almost any high level game you will find that this is the case.
Toss being able to have Ghosts now completely throws off the balance of that engagement. The main reason is that the RepGhost will have cloak right from the start. Generally Terran players will have their Ghosts on a separate hot-key. Now Toss has the ability to send a cloaked Ghost in prior to an engagement and disable all of the Terran's Ghosts (similar to the NP self-EMP maneuver) or the Terran Medivacs. If the Protoss is able to land just one such EMP, their chances of winning the next battle increase significantly. The main counter-argument on Gyro_SC2's thread is that Terran usually scan before proceeding so it wouldn't work. However this argument rests on the ridiculous premise that Terran is ALWAYS scanning in front of their army and that the RepGhost couldn't approach from...oh let's say...the side (basically a really dumb counter argument). The fact of the matter is, the only way to prevent this would be for the Terran to have detection in the form of a Raven.
The problem now is that Terran would have to fight a Toss Deathball which now includes fully upgraded Ravens. I really hope I don't need to explain to you why Hunter-Seeker missiles and ESPECIALLY PDD (OMFG) would be extremely useful against a marauder-heavy bio-ball and vikings which desperately need to kill your collosus.
So basically with this one unit Terran's options are either A) Allow their Ghosts to be EMP'd prior to the engagement, or B) fight a Toss deathball that now includes Hunter Seeker missiles and a PDD.
Vs. Zerg + Show Spoiler +
Ahhhh where to begin? This is the one match-up in which most people seemed to think the Replicant would be MOST useless, however I think this one is where they would most shine.
Basically when you're looking at the PvZ matchup it's vital that A) the Zerg is able to control the collosus count, and B) the Zerg must set up good surrounds/flanks in order to defeat the deathball. Both of these functions are directly countered by the Infestor's fungal growth. Now Toss has the ability to fungal growth corruptors and stop them from target-firing their collosus. They can also now include fungal growth with FF when zoning out Roaches. Being able to cut a Zerg roach-ball in half with a single spell will be very bad for Zergs...
Another small idea (which I believe was originally said by somebody as a joke to mock Replicants in PvZ) is using the Replicant to become a queen and then creating Creep Tumors. While obviously the Protoss shouldn't help the Zerg spread creep, the obvious use would be to send tumors back towards to Zerg's base. Basically each tumor becomes a stationary observer that the Protoss can use to gain excellent vision of the Zerg's entire side of the map. Of course, in order to stop you from doing this the Zerg would need to get Vipers for detection...
Which now means that the Toss player has Vipers :D. More importantly, they have Dark Swarm (Blinding Cloud w/e). In an engagement in which all the Zerg's units have range 1, zealots and archons have a SIGNIFICANT increase in power. Imagine combining that ability with force fields (Shudder...).
In conclusion, the Replicant has excellent uses both vs. Zerg and Terran. Both enemy races now must contend with the fact that any spellcasting unit they choose to get will also now be included, FULLY UPGRADED, in their opponents arsenal. How at any given time people believed this unit to be useless is so far beyond me that I've nearly lost all faith in the general communities ability to think critically. It's like the best people could come up with is turning the damned thing into a maurader... But yeah, totally useless PvP  .
TEMPEST:
+ Show Spoiler +
Another hated unit. While it's true that it may not work well as a direct counter to mutas, I feel that it has excellent synergy with the Toss deathball.
The typical anti-collosus deathball strategy by Terrans and Zergs is to have Vikings/Corrupters destroy the Colossus before they are able to fry the Terrans/Zergs entire ground army with their ridiculous DPS. In order to do this Terrans and Zergs typically have to have their entire AA ball on one hotkey shift-clicking the collosus. This typically forces the entire group into close proximity while they engage the individual targets (much more with corruptors than vikings). Therefore the addition of just two tempests in the Protoss deathball means that any vikings or corruptors will be taking ENORMOUS splash damage while they rush to engage the collosus. If the Terran or Zerg opts to magic box with their flying AA then there's simply no way that they will be able to target fire the Collosus down quickly enough to save their ground army. The Tempest provides extremely effective answer to Terran and Zerg air answers to Collosus. This will also allow the Protoss to cut down on their stalker count as they won't require the AA to protect the Collosus and now focus on a heavier zealot/sentry composition which is much better vs. Bio/Roach.
ORACLE
+ Show Spoiler +
Less hated than the Tempest, more hated than the Replicant, this is another unit which falls into the category of "The fact that people can't think of a single good thing to do with this unit hurts me." While it's probably a bit too expensive at this point I feel that it's abilities are extremely underrated.
I really don't understand why people are so down on the economic harass of this unit. Of course the response is "LOL JUST KILL MINERAL GOOP NO PROBLEM EZZZZZZ", to which the obvious question is why doesn't the logic of "well if my opponent tries to harass me with X, then I'll just stop it" doesn't always work for X=hellions/banshees/DTs/Infestors/Lings/Mutas etc. And while these forms of harass have the advantage of killing workers, the advantage of the Oracle's spell is you don't get a combat warning. If you don't notice it happen, the effects of having an entire mineral line out of action add up extremely quickly. The other thing to consider is that this spell could allow you to kill workers much easier in a harass. If you lock down every mineral patch but one then the entire worker line would group up on one patch. Now imagine you also brought along a High Templar or an Archon in a Warp Prism...
The Oracles building Corruption/Lockdown ability is another extremely useful one that I'm surprised doesn't get much love. The harass ability when combined with DTs is the most obvious application, and while overseer corruption didn't always get the usage is probably should have the fact is that often that would result in the loss of an overseer. An oracle is as fast as a pheonix therefore it's ability to get in and get out is far superior.
And finally, this unit allows you to see exactly what technology is in production at any given time. Being able to scout Overlord drops could be quite useful in a PvZ I think.
The point of this long rant is this: Just because you can't A-Move it doesn't make it useless. As with every unit in the game, you have to consider how these units can be used in conjunction with other units in the players arsenal. Now as none of us has had any extended playtime with this game nobody can know for sure what new strategies will evolve from these new units. However it makes me sad when unimaginative people offhand declare these units to be useless. You should all be better than that. |
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| FreudianTrip Switzerland. October 25 2011 11:02. Posts 1882 | Profile # |
Post it in one of the 8000 threads on this?
edit: So I don't get warned. No-one has a clue whether these units will even make it in let alone be OP/UP. Kinda pointless really.Last edit: 2011-10-25 11:03:40 |
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| d9mmdi Germany. October 25 2011 11:17. Posts 179 | Profile Blog # |
after 10 threads about how bad all units are your seriously calling him out for taking the opposite view in a new thread =D?
About the analysis I think there are some solid thoughts in there but I can only suggest waiting out the expansion because you cannot predict how those new units play out in real games. Look at the wild changes in the metagame with WoL that nobody was able to reliably forsee.
At lest this thread just gives some thoughs on possibilities instead of bashing |
| | You gotta step over dead bodies - Momma Plott |
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| Ryder. October 25 2011 11:17. Posts 810 | Profile # |
I do find it kind of funny how in all the 'ghost OP' threads, terran insist that the 'HT vs Ghost' micro wars is on even footing, or even that HT are better, yet when the Replicator is introduced and people say it's useless, the first thing others reply with 'replicate a ghost to EMP the other ghosts'. If the HT vs Ghost wars are so equal, why waste 200/200 on replicating a 200/100 unit? Surely if you are telling us to spend 100 gas more than a ghost is worth just to counter ghosts as opposed to just making a HT, then that says something about the balance of HT vs Ghost wars?
Just something I thought of after reading all these threads.
Also how often to terrans get a raven PvT? Pretty much exclusively during 1-1-1, and I doubt having a replicant on the field is going to encourage them to get it even more...Last edit: 2011-10-25 11:20:43 |
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| Tuxedo United States. October 25 2011 11:26. Posts 131 | Profile # |
Yo OP. I think the main reason people don't like the replicant is because we don't want to use terran or zerg units.. we want a toss unit! At least that is why I hate the idea. Obviously it would have some uses and some that would be OP. It just sucky to have to rely on units from another race to fill the gaps for protoss. Seriously makes me shudder. I play protoss for a reason.
And the tempest isn't the most hated. I think it goes like this --> Replicant (AHH I want a protoss unit), Oracle (no attacking potential), Tempest (decent, and most accept it) |
| | Dat Ax! I bleed Infinity Seven Black |
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| Crisco October 25 2011 11:32. Posts 1105 | Profile # |
| it is a toss unit, technically. I personally enjoy the concept of fight "fire with fire." Take your opponent's strongest weapons and use it against them. I guess toss has toss pride or something. As a zerg, if i had the opportunity to replicate (the way toss does it), i would fall in love with it |
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| Pobearo United States. October 25 2011 11:32. Posts 348 | Profile # |
| I like how the units in HoTS thus far are designed to NOT be included in deathballs. The new toss units are a little iffy by me, the replicant in particular, but I'm waiting to actually see them used in a few games to form a solid opinion. |
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| SacredSoul United States. October 25 2011 11:34. Posts 76 | Profile # |
freakin shredder needs to renamed and added to protoss... since when was terran supposed to look technologically advanced? They are supposed to be rugged and protoss the advanced ones...
The fact they gave terran another way to prevent people from attacking them (adding to bunkers, PF, turrets, sensor towers, and siege tanks) really pisses me off. I was happy about only 2 things in the protoss HotS changes... 1.) The Oracle is interesting and cool, and 2.) The recall at nexus ability gives our slow ass a way to retreat =]
But Blizz giving ANOTHER way to turtle to terran makes no sense to me... The zerg or toss need that more than T ever will. /endrant |
| | "This is my card castle you ungrateful B****!" - Sean "Day[9]" Plott |
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| Nash October 25 2011 11:37. Posts 151 | Profile # |
| you are not special. im so tired of ppl that think they are and post their stupid opinions in a new thread. |
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| Jacob666 United States. October 25 2011 11:37. Posts 283 | Profile # |
| Can you replicate units that cost more then the replicant? |
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| Mortal October 25 2011 11:37. Posts 2423 | Profile Blog # |
These units aren't definitive, so if they aren't implemented all this moaning will be for nothing; granted, everything Blizzard has done so far in HotS looks like utter garbage, so I wouldn't be surprised.
There are gaggles of threads about this. Post in there. |
| | The universe created an audience for itself. |
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| Crisco October 25 2011 11:40. Posts 1105 | Profile # |
| i dunno, i actually think this post is worthwhile as it sums up the positives while all the other ones are general or hateful |
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| Corrosive Canada. October 25 2011 11:41. Posts 3661 | Profile # |
| oracles are going to be completely useless in pvt when terrans start to build alot of sensor towers. |
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| Crisco October 25 2011 11:42. Posts 1105 | Profile # |
On October 25 2011 11:41 Corrosive wrote:
oracles are going to be completely useless in pvt when terrans start to build alot of sensor towers.
haven't you technically won already if they build a lot of sensor towers? Secondly, sensor towers hardly stop phoenixes or mutas |
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| reneg United States. October 25 2011 11:43. Posts 677 | Profile # |
On October 25 2011 11:40 Crisco wrote:
i dunno, i actually think this post is worthwhile as it sums up the positives while all the other ones are general or hateful
Yea, but talking about the positives of units that are still in alpha stages of development is like talking about whether you think it might snow in 3 years because the weather seems nice today.
Especially given Kennigit's interview w/ DB:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=279030
Where he always puts a lot of huge "IFs" in front of the new units. It's like roaches in Beta. Having 2 armor. And 1 supply. And cannons being able to phase around.
None of that made it into the final stages of the game, simply because they were broken.
Don't put too much stock into what we've already seen. There are likely HUGE changes to come. |
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| Conquerer67 United States. October 25 2011 11:43. Posts 605 | Profile # |
People don't like the replicant because it's blizz's way of not actually giving protoss a good unit, instead they just decide to let you use the other races shit.
The oracle is actually interesting, but the debate threads on it and the tempest are already over 9000, so...
Poll: Sooo, the replicant?Clones ass and then ass rams it (5) 50% Sucks ass (3) 30% Kicks ass (2) 20% 10 total votes Your vote: Sooo, the replicant? (Vote): Kicks ass
(Vote): Sucks ass
(Vote): Clones ass and then ass rams it
Poll: ... And the Tempest?It's 100% balanced and totally awesome (3) 43% OP as shit, excited to get hands on it (2) 29% Completely UP, make it do 200 dmg to air with a only-enemy splash radius of 100 (2) 29% 7 total votes Your vote: ... And the Tempest? (Vote): OP as shit, excited to get hands on it
(Vote): Completely UP, make it do 200 dmg to air with a only-enemy splash radius of 100
(Vote): It's 100% balanced and totally awesome
Poll: And finally the oracle?DAAAAMMMN. It can scout like an obsv, except it isn't cloaked. (5) 56% DAMN, It can freeze zerg tech buildings? So OP vs zerg. (3) 33% Damn... it's going to freeze minerals. So OP vs terran (1) 11% 9 total votes Your vote: And finally the oracle? (Vote): Damn... it's going to freeze minerals. So OP vs terran
(Vote): DAMN, It can freeze zerg tech buildings? So OP vs zerg.
(Vote): DAAAAMMMN. It can scout like an obsv, except it isn't cloaked.
+ Show Spoiler +
For the first one, I just want to point out that I am not being literal. If I was, I would direct you to a certain pornographic video involving....
Now that that's out of the way, I'm just saying that it turns itself into something OP, because the counter to something OP is the same thing, with better micro.
Last edit: 2011-10-25 12:01:49 |
| | I hate when people compare SC2 and rochambeu. One race isn't fucking supposed to counter another one. | Protoss isn't OP. Their units on the other hand.... |
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| Bagration United States. October 25 2011 11:46. Posts 10834 | Profile Blog # |
I remember seeing a 2v2 where a PZ team of HT and infestors was able to wipe out 2 nearly maxed terran/zerg bioballs with minimal losses.
If the Replicant becomes an infestor and uses fungal growth to trap units while the HTs storm on top, the damage would be very significant (100+ damage AOE and the units cannot move for the duration), especially against the relatively low-HP zerg army.
I would not worry too much however, as tournament money and fame are huge incentives for progamers to come up with innovative strategies. For all we know, these units have huge unrealized potential. |
| | Team Slayers, Axiom and Vile forever |
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| raf3776 United States. October 25 2011 11:47. Posts 1861 | Profile Blog # |
| I think oracles have the most potential. the ability of stopping production etc and stop mining will be awesome. Plus its extremely fast but weak |
| | WWJD (What Would Jaedong Do) |
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| SolidZeal United States. October 25 2011 11:55. Posts 388 | Profile # |
One additional note on the oracle, it can shut down gases for 45 seconds with a quick cast, it's like flying refinery death. So it has to cost lots of gas, to make the harass fair. I really like these units and i hope they don't get changed too much before I see them in action.
@ Ryder, most terran don't think HTs are better/equal, if they do, they are just ill informed. Yes it can kill units...but so can the insane dps of bio...anyway, the caster match up is kinda off, but this unit will more than balance it. It will be ghost v.s. ghost with the payoff for winning the battle being huge. If terran wins they can emp with impunity and most likely win the battle, though the protoss can just recall away if it goes too terribly, if the protoss wins then they can storm the terran to hell. Also I wouldn't be surprised if DT into collosus doesn't become popular for PvT. Yes a raven is unlikely, unless you force the issue. Last edit: 2011-10-25 11:57:58 |
| | In the clearing stands a boxer and a figher by his trade |
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| Stipulation United States. October 25 2011 12:03. Posts 580 | Profile Blog # |
In all these threads I have yet to hear answers on some specific question on the replicant. Maybe I've just missed them, but it would be really cool if someone who tested at blizzcon could comment.
1) Does it fly or move on the ground.
(Obviously dictates the practicality of the unit)
2) I heard something about melee range for casting but other places people talked about sending an observer into the opponents base to be able to replicate from a range. What is the actual casting range and does the transformation take place immediately, on a timer, or at the players command?
(If vision is all that is required this allows for tech switches similar to zerg. Also stealing the coveted scv for an orbital is ezpz.)
3) Can you replicate your own units?
(200/200 may not be a cost effective way to build an army, but if it allows you to instantly swing your tech one way or the other this would be very powerful. Also it would let you pump stargate units quicker in cases where production facilities are more of a limiting factor than money.)
4) Can mules and hallucination be replicated? Do replicated mules have a timed life?
(Probably OP if possible)
5) Do replicated casters get full energy along with having all upgrades?
(probably OP too)
edited for spelling error Last edit: 2011-10-25 12:04:54 |
| | For reference: I'm a low (~200 adjusted points) masters toss http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/1992410/Stips |
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