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| Psyqo United States. November 01 2011 21:25. Posts 345 | Profile # |
| So this format of pros requesting their money needs to be centralized in something other than a single Teamliquid thread. I don't want to dive into the murky waters of "OMG we need a player union!" but something has to be done. This is honestly one thing that I don't think Teamliquid.net should be responsible for, however it is the logical solution because you know they would do it right and the players would get some type of official forum to consult with tournament organizers over matters like this. |
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| BoggieMan November 01 2011 21:30. Posts 462 | Profile Blog # |
| So unprofessional, someone should bring light on this from outside the gaming community. |
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| Marooned Norway. November 01 2011 21:33. Posts 161 | Profile # |
This is just stupid business strategy. The named companys had to know this would backfire hard on them at some point if they kept up with it. Some of this seems like just sloppy accountant work, while the real badboy here seems like they try to get away with paying up for as long as possible to host more cool tournaments and expand faster. Sponsor, entrytickets and commercialmoney is used for salaries for the heads in the organization and hosting new stuff. Typical 80's mentality. Problem is this rearely or never works, and if they have some knowlage of how to run a business they should know this.
The most discusting part when you think about it is that I can bet anyone that the ones that workes for said organization gets paid on time, and from what I know they get paid pretty good. From a leaders perspective this is really good to keep your employees happy and maintain a good morale inside your own bubble, but problem is that public oppinion matters, even on employee morale.
The only way to save this is going down on their knees and giving some bullshit appology that they didnt know better, pay up everything they own the players and hope peope forgets. Lets just hope they dont go bankrupt in the prossess.
Would be a shame to lose such an awesome contributer to the e-sports scene. Please learn from this.. |
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| Steel Canada. November 01 2011 21:34. Posts 2065 | Profile Blog # |
| I understand a reasonable delay of a month or two but if tournaments never pay up, shouldn't they be prosecuted? Isn't announcing a contest prize legally binding? If not, why wouldn't companies just create contests to increase sales and never pay up? |
| | Try another route paperboy. |  |
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| MaV_gGSC Canada. November 01 2011 21:34. Posts 1306 | Profile Blog # |
| Wow I always thought they gave you the money asap with those gigantic checks and all :O |
| | Life's good :D |  |
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| FryktSkyene United States. November 01 2011 21:38. Posts 1173 | Profile # |
0 days for MLG
Lead the way baby woooo |
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| infinity2k9 United Kingdom. November 01 2011 21:41. Posts 2398 | Profile Blog # |
On November 01 2011 21:34 Steel wrote:
I understand a reasonable delay of a month or two but if tournaments never pay up, shouldn't they be prosecuted? Isn't announcing a contest prize legally binding? If not, why wouldn't companies just create contests to increase sales and never pay up?
Yeah of course it is a risk.. people were suspicious of the NASL at first too. Problem is i don't think, at least probably for lower not-quite-top tournaments they don't have contracts or any actual legal requirement. If someone knows otherwise correct me but i doubt it. Tournaments/sponsors generally don't turn up out of the blue so anyone new and claiming anything big is always met with suspicion but other than that i'm not sure there's any real responsibility on their part. |
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| Morphs Netherlands. November 01 2011 21:43. Posts 645 | Profile # |
It's really unprofessional to let the players wait for their prize money. I'd say the max amount of time should be 4-6 weeks. No more.
Actually I'm an advocate of immediate pay and let the organizers run the risk of not receiving their money from the sponsors etc. They are the organizers so if they fuck up their duty, it's their loss. The players come to play and win and that's what they do, they keep up their end of the deal so pay 'em! |
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| f0X Germany. November 01 2011 21:43. Posts 32 | Profile # |
this is the one huge problem esport has yet to overcome to make another step to become fully accepted in society!!!
its completely unproffesional to not pay out prizemoney to the dates they are due! |
| | "What you deserve is what you get" |  |
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| tofubeans United States. November 01 2011 21:44. Posts 766 | Profile # |
This is the ESWC guy's response on reddit. Not too good of a response, imo.
http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/lvxx6/some_eswc_guy_said_cloud_might_not_get_invited_to/c2w0vrb
Well i'm that ESWC guy & this is what i said to Cloud when i saw the topic:
Hello Cloud,
I was reading your topic on the price money issue.
I'm extremely disappointed in the fact that you publicly put the ESWC brand in a bad spot light just a few days after our event. You decided to go public first instead of asking us about it. You say that you have no idea who to talk to, but you could have replied to your invitation email. Visit our website for contact information or ask your management for our contact information. From my point of view you didn't put much effort into the contacting us. Posting before asking is a really bad move towards any organisation.
The new owners of the ESWC paid out price money last year in less than 1 month. Which is extremely fast in my opinion.
I can totally imagine your fear or your problems with organisations regarding pay out. But you should be careful. Not to threaten you, but just to explain you why. Can you imagine, that if I want to invite you next year that my bosses will ask me "why would you invite a player that posted unjustified bad news about us".
That's not the situation I want to be in because I loved the fact that you attended our event as an Italian representative. You getting top8 justified my invite as well.
Anyway; it takes about 1 to 2 weeks for us to finish logistics for the event. After that we take care of price money. We have your mail address from the application, you'll be contacted regarding bank information. You can always message me on Skype: *. teamliquid, mail() whatever.
With kind regards,
I was surprised by his reply's to my comments and the comments he made afterwards in the topic.
But hey, i was happy that he did well in the tournament, i won't make this personal. I don't think its bad to make a topic about price money.
The problem with forums is that nobody really reads or knows what's going on. So if Cloud lists that ESWC didn't pay, even if its just been played recently or whatever reason. You'll see 50 people flaming ESWC and 5 people actually reading and saying what's really going on. That might not be Cloud fault or anything, its just sad.
Thanks for the few people on reddit and TL that reads and properly replies. Whether its positive towards ESWC or not.
---
http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/lvxx6/some_eswc_guy_said_cloud_might_not_get_invited_to/c2w19d0
The payment process is made clear after the event. Please do understand that for most of us Monday(yesterday) was our first day back from the event. And yes, we can always improve our communication. Make it sooner/better/quicker, but if players don't properly communicate themselves than these things will always happen.
Like some others did, Cloud could have mailed/messaged/* regarding this subject. But he didn't and that's why I'm disappointed.
Last edit: 2011-11-01 21:47:56 |
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| Teiwaz Austria. November 01 2011 21:48. Posts 158 | Profile # |
What really saddens me is how little people differentiate in this thread.
You guys really have to differentiate between:
-) Tournaments which pay within a short period of time (0-30 days)
-) Tournaments which pay within a medium period of time (30-60 days)
-) Tournaments which pay within a long period of time (60-90 days)
All of that is totally fine as long as the players have been made aware of how long they probably have to wait for their money. Shit can happen, information can be lost, someone can fuck up - that's fine too. You all have fingers, you all can write emails, you all can contact your team (manager) on those issues. Don't just sit on your ass and wait for others to do something about it - that is addressed at both, players and tournament organizers.
What's definately not acceptable:
-) Tournaments which don't make the players aware of a delay for the payout process - doesn't matter for what reason. You have to do that, otherwise that's poor organization.
-) Tournaments which pay late (90+ days) - just get your shit together or gtfo. Very poor organization.
-) Tournaments which threaten players because they're making the community aware that something poor is going on. That's just bad behaviour.
-) Tournaments which pay so lat that the prize significantly decreased in value (mostly HW prizes) - again, very poor organization.
Those last 4 kinds of tournaments are the ones the community must know about so eSports can get rid of those scumbags.
As I said: everything else is fine and every issue had can be resolved with at least some communication. |
| | ↑ Now is the time to make use of the skills and wisdom you have acquired. ↑ |
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| Eufouria United Kingdom. November 01 2011 21:51. Posts 4072 | Profile Blog # |
On November 01 2011 21:25 Psyqo wrote:
So this format of pros requesting their money needs to be centralized in something other than a single Teamliquid thread. I don't want to dive into the murky waters of "OMG we need a player union!" but something has to be done. This is honestly one thing that I don't think Teamliquid.net should be responsible for, however it is the logical solution because you know they would do it right and the players would get some type of official forum to consult with tournament organizers over matters like this.
I think we do need a players union. It might be hard to make it completely universal, although that would be the end goal, but it is generally the same group of players attending these LAN events and, from this thread, I get the idea that they already discuss it between themselves internally, so why not have a player run organisation that would provide every member with more leverage than even players like IdrA have right now.
I understand that sponsors not paying money is an issue, but its frankly a bullshit reason to keep these players waiting so long. If you owe someone money you pay them, if you can't pay them because someone else owes you money that's too bad, maybe you'd care about getting the money faster if it was your own money and not someone else's. I'll be honest, I don't know exactly how sponsorship money works for big events, but I can't imagine that sponsorship money for big scale sporting events isn't paid in advance, or at least soon after the event. The tournament organisers themselves should make sure that the sponsors aren't fucking them about, and if you keep getting fucked about maybe you shouldn't be running a tournament that deals with such a large amount of money.
For now big teams are probably the organisations with the biggest weight to throw around, and I'd like to maybe see some collaboration, where they start to pressure organisations to pay each others players. The problem with this is that the reason a team like EG can afford to pay Huk or IdrA is because they appear at events and bring in revenue for sponsors, so the money lost, or delayed, to Huk or IdrA will be much less than the money lost if they attend less events.
Also 3 months does not seem like an acceptable time to aim for, that should be the very top end of prize money delay, and players should expect to be paid in 1 month. |
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| infinity2k9 United Kingdom. November 01 2011 22:05. Posts 2398 | Profile Blog # |
| Well even 1 month, why? They should have the money to cover the prizes before the tournament begins, it's not right to not have that. Really don't think it should be any time at all.. if not it's suggesting they are running tournaments only with the expectation to get the prize money later. |
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| jester- Canada. November 01 2011 22:07. Posts 547 | Profile Blog # |
Guess my post got lost among the clutter 
What is everyone's opinion on tournaments paying out prizes in increments a la lottery style payout?
Eg, instead of lump sum of $1000 at 90 days, $100 / week for 10 weeks, etc.
Surely this would be easier for the bankrolls of tournaments and would keep people happy because at least they know their money is coming in... |
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| dignitas.merz Sweden. November 01 2011 22:08. Posts 2528 | Profile Blog # |
Glad you decided to come forward with this ClouD, I know I wouldn't dare to. I'm surprised to see so many people acting like this is news though, this has been true for a long time and I knew about it even before I actually got to experience it at first hand.
All in all, just because it's "standard" doesn't justify it obviously. The problem with this whole thing as well is that it's not really hurting the top players, because they are getting decent salaries, what it hurts is the middle/low tier of the progamer rankings. These guys take any amount of money they can get in order to survive doing what they love, when someone wins 1000 dollars for just placing in the top 16 in a tournament, getting those 1000 dollars is crucial for self-funding while still chasing that big win.
It also adds more stress to players because even if they do well at events they can never be sure that they actually made any money off it. Imagine going to work HOPING they get paid rather than KNOWING, it's a fucking terrible feeling, that I can vouch for, and even if you do get paid months and sometimes years (lol) after, you usually need the money within 1-2 months. Also the frustration of being fucking broke knowing that in reality you should have 3k++ dollars on your bank account right now is also something that just makes you feel helpless.
But... At least I understand and can accept that this is not entirely the tournament organizers fault either, obviously this has to work in every area (sponsors keeping their promises etc). Putting tournament organizers such as ESWC for example to full blame is not the solution, but something definitely needs to happend to stop this, and we should all work together to make it so. |
| | Winners never quit, quitters never win. |  |
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| Dommk Australia. November 01 2011 22:11. Posts 4462 | Profile # |
This is an issue everywhere, not just SC2.
I come from a DotA background, and back when I was still following the scene actively 4-5 years ago this was a common thing. Not just earnings through tournaments but even team sponsors.
At the end of the day the only people who are hurt by this are the players. The fans are still happy because they get to see their favorite players compete but the players themselves have more to lose by not participating. Only a select few players right now have built themselves a name worthy of being able to pick and choose where they compete.
I genuinely hope this gets better for you guy.
Kudos to Cloud for stepping up and putting his name on the line. |
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| Farone Netherlands. November 01 2011 22:11. Posts 1022 | Profile # |
I am glad that we ( CraftCup) allways pay our money right after each cup, allthough its only a small amount 20$ or 100$, but that shouldnt matter.
Allways make sure to first recieve your sponsor money first before hosting a tournament/cup. I think that is the best way to deal with this "late" payments. I am glad ClouD brings it out, so people in the future will have the chance to boycot big prizemoney tournies which wont pay out |
| | MC, Stephano, Ret, Jjakji, Grubby, Life, HerO, Scarlett, TaeJa | |
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| MyLastSerenade Germany. November 01 2011 22:17. Posts 707 | Profile # |
i hope this isnt going too bad for some players, looks like some organisations could get mad and e.g. no longer invite them to tournaments...
but on the other way, something has to be done, this are serious issues for progamers |
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| d9mmdi Germany. November 01 2011 22:27. Posts 179 | Profile Blog # |
Im sorry if tournament managers boast about paying "relatively quickly" is a joke to me. It cant be that complicated:
Sent winner email asking for bank account information. Issue transaction, DONE.
Its not unreasonable to exspect prize money to arrive the players within a week. If tournaments dont pay timely it means they are taking the whole thing not seriously!
If you cant rely on your sponsors to give the money they deserve the blame obviously and there should be a thread making it pubic which sponsors didnt pay, but probably tournaments want to stay on good terms with sponsors so its an unfair situation for the players. |
| | You gotta step over dead bodies - Momma Plott |
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| TissTuss Sweden. November 01 2011 22:30. Posts 33 | Profile # |
Well at least playham and MLG is awesome at paying up  . Creds to them I am gonna watch more playham stuff.
And ESCW got a bad rep and is not really doing anything trying to improve it. That they are late or never pay is old news but that they respond with what looks like threats to players that raise thiere voices is just disgusting. Maybe players need an union to avoid implications with tournaments as ESCW?Last edit: 2011-11-01 22:34:41 |
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