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| blade55555 United States. November 06 2011 07:48. Posts 14256 | Profile Blog # |
Why hello there its been awhile since I have written another guide and I figured with muta's becoming more popular in zvz time to write a guide on it.
Other guides:
zerg vs zerg hatch first vs 14/14: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=199583
Zerg vs Terran guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=211960
Zerg vs Protoss guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=210354
Zerg vs Protoss Delayed Lair guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=259629
I have personally been finding muta's super effective lately and is actually making me enjoy zvz a bit. I have personally always hated the infestor play and before muta's were seen as being gimicky in zvz but now its becoming more "standard" you could say. Before I really start here is my other zvz guide if you want to see my early - mid game in more detail ( in terms of defending and what not)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=199583
The build is a slight variation and is going to assume he is not all inning so keep that in mind. If he is all inning and you know it you do want to make adjustments like more spines, units, delay lair, delay muta, etc which I explain below!
--------Build--------
9 - overlord
9- drone scout (this is personal preference ,
I prefer to 9 drone scout in case they do some early pool builds)
15 - hatchery
14- spawning pool
17 - gas
16 or 17 (your preference) - overlord
as soon as spawning pool finishes throw down a roach warren
and make 6-8 lings + 1 queen if its long rush distant maps, otherwise do 8 lings and wait for roach warren to finish.. If you want you can make a queen as well
but delay the queen for a little bit to throw down that roach warren first.
21-22 – overlord
get speed when you feel you can spare 100/100
Get 2nd and third gas at about 6:40-7 minutes
start lair right as soon as you have the 100 gas for it
4'th gas at about 7:30-7:45 your choice, later if he is doing an all in
spire as soon as lair finishes
--------Hatch first vs Hatch first Build--------
9 - overlord
9- drone scout (this is personal preference ,
I prefer to 9 drone scout in case they do some early pool builds)
15 - hatchery
16-18- spawning pool
17 - gas
16 or 17 (your preference) - overlord
Make 4 lings use 1 to scout
21-22 baneling nest (incase they go all in ling)
get 2nd and third gas 6:40-7 minutes
start lair with the next 100 gas
get 4'th gas at about 7:30-7:45 your choice, later if he is doing an all in
That is my basic build order for the early game. Again if you want more in depth on my decisions just go to that thread I linked to.
Concept of Mutalisks in zvz
+ Show Spoiler +When going muta's the point of this is to secure a third and contain your opponent while giving you complete map control. You will kill stray overlords on the map, try to deny his third if he moves out, harass him while being very careful about infestors. The goal of muta play is to get more bases and be able to run him over with better macro due to your superior economy.
You want to try to avoid direct army to army confrontations until you are positive you will win the fight. You should be making spine crawlers so that if he engages you can use spine crawlers as a helpful defense to defend his attack.
You want to take your third in a spot that will be a problem for your opponent to kill off. An example would be on taldarim lets say you are cross positions you are top right, he is bottom left you would want to take your third on the main of top left or bottom right.
This way if he attacks it you can just counter and screw up his economy. He can't just send a few units to kill it due to muta's so he has to really commit to it. This is a win/win for you as you get a third, if he commits you counter and destroy his economy and force him into an all in. You want to take the "normal" third base locations as your next base.
Transition phase
+ Show Spoiler +Now this part is really up to you. you can transition into roach/hydra, roach/infestor or you can transition into hive tech ultra's or hive tech broodlords. You can make 10 muta, you can make 30 muta you can only make 7 if thats your fancy and want to transition. I personally love going mass muta with ling/baneling with flanking maneuvers.
An example of this would be he's coming with a roach/hydra/infestor army that has to kill you. You have ling/bane in the front by your spines, then ling baneling in other flanking situations so when you engage you hit the front, side, back if possible. It requires more fungels to stop and he can't just run backwords he is trapped in a since. He has to engage there and try to fungel all the banelings but from 4 sides thats a lot of fungels.
I know most zergs prefer the ultra route but I personally prefer the Broodlord route. My reasoning is pretty simple for this, you have air control, you already have a spire, you should have muta still so why not just go into broodlords? They mess with the AI of ground units (hydra), if he goes corruptor you already have a bunch of muta's so thats not really a viable option for him, so he has infestors/hydra. You will have muta/ling/bane/broodlord with infestors yourself if you choose to. I feel its superior at least in theory again I haven't had many cases in zerg vs zerg to do this yet so it is possible I am completely wrong.
Muta vs Muta
+ Show Spoiler +In muta vs muta battles do not engage his muta unless you are positive you have more then him. If you lose your muta and he has a lot left you are pretty much guaranteed to lose. If you trade muta then its fine but you want to avoid confrontations until you are positive you will win. You should continue getting muta armor upgrades if he keeps going muta. This is what I do, if he has more muta and you can't deny his third then you will have to transition into hydra or infestors.
In general you should continue mutalisk production, because you are already investing into them and if you transition you lose air control, your muta's are useless depending on how many you make can be 800 gas wasted if you transition and not go into muta vs muta.
Defending vs busts while waiting for your spire
+ Show Spoiler +A common thing you will run into on ladder is your opponent going for a roach/ling all in or some roach bust attempting to hit before your spire finishes. You should see this coming a mile away. With your lings you should be sacrificing them to see his unit count. If you see roaches on the field you should make a couple spines asap. If you send lings again and see a lot of roaches you need to make more spines. this is very crucial as you will die if he does a bust and you don't make enough spines with ling/bane support. I have a couple replays that will show you this.
As long as you are constantly scouting you should NOT die to any busts. As soon as your lair finishes you should make an overseer and see what he is doing ( its 50/50 so worth it). This will tell you if he is going muta himself, going hydra's or going infestors or if he's going for a roach/ling/bane bust.
Now I can't think of any other things to put at this second, if you have any questions feel free to ask if you have seen any of my other guides you should know I answer every question I see. If I missed something on this guide please point it out and I will edit the section in. If I forgot something I will update this guide.
Here are the replays only 3 right now but has me of muta vs muta, someone trying to roach/ling/bane bust me before muta, and a roach/hydra attempted bust when I have muta's out on the field. I will be uploading more replays as I get them right now only 3. Hope this helps you guys out and enjoy the muta play!
http://www.mediafire.com/?b6kcka20zl1eti2Last edit: 2011-11-07 04:20:40 |
| | When I think of something else, something will go here |
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 Grapefruit Germany. November 06 2011 07:53. Posts 438 | Profile # |
| Good job on constantly putting work into new guides. The SC2 community needs more people like you. |
| | Starcraft 2 is funny, everybody picks the race, which he considers to be the weakest. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
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| Micket United Kingdom. November 06 2011 07:53. Posts 2163 | Profile # |
| Mutas are awesome! Think one of the best matches to watch was Idra vs Sheth in MLG global invitational. Sheth tried to attack with roach hydra and mutas just kept sniping cos hydras are so damn slow. Mutas truly force your opponent to stay in their base before roach hydra infestor. By that time, you either have an awesome muta ling bling force, way superior economy so more roaches, or hive tech. |
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| apalemorning Canada. November 06 2011 08:00. Posts 508 | Profile Blog # |
| thanks doooooooooooooood! <33333333333333333333333333333333333333333 |
| | immortal/roach is pretty good against stalkers |
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| Br3ezy United States. November 06 2011 08:06. Posts 720 | Profile Blog # |
| mutalisks arent effective in zvz anymore. If the other zerg knows you are teching, he can just take an early third with little to no damage that can be done to him and he just comes out economically ahead |
| | Check out my guide to mechanics http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319876 |
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| DBunny Canada. November 06 2011 08:24. Posts 192 | Profile # |
What do you think of a transition in to ling + bane with double upgrades starting immediately after the initial mutas? I find that this sets up nicely for ultras and is very helpful for runbys and hatchery snipes as he is often prepared with sufficient anti air but doesn't have enough to stop the lings from just focusing down a hatch when he is out of position. Burrowed banes is also very helpful when you have denied his third enough and he just accumulates a large roach hydra army for one large bust, it usually doesn't occur to them to get an overseer in this situation. If he incorporates banes himself with infestor though it shuts this down unless you are close enough to ultras.
Transitioning in to roaches seems like a more solid choice that I have yet to tinker with, but it just seems like due to the opponents earlier upgrades and hydras/infestors that his ground army would win every engagement that wasn't by the spines. I usually only make about 7-8 muta just to deny third and kill overlords so they are almost a non-factor in an army vs army battle, should I be making more? Usually my third kicks in and I win just by having that extra base, but this doesn't work so well if he smells the mutas due to the early gas and the spines and gets his third very quickly.
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| Antimatterz United States. November 06 2011 08:40. Posts 998 | Profile # |
I love mutas in ZvZ, and I have 2 points that you might want to add:
1. When you get mutas, you HAVE to be aggressive at all times. You cannot let him prepare for your mutas, because if he does, the other zerg can hit a super hard to deal with timing while you dont have a stronger econ and his tech counters most of yours (roach/hydra will destroy a roach/muta or ling/bane/muta if they prepared correctly). When I attack I usually have an order that I use, such as:
-Queens (or hydras if in small numbers, like 3 or 4)
-Spores
-Units on gas
-Units on minerals
2. Having a group of 6 lings patroling around the map helps deny any ling scouts that may be coming, which increases the chance that he won't prepare for your mutas. Denying scouting is extremely important.
My two cents  |
| | It's not a witchhunt if you have KR: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=371282#1 "HotBid [11:45 AM]: i dunno i kinda like the big muta shooting smaller mutas out" |
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| blade55555 United States. November 06 2011 09:08. Posts 14256 | Profile Blog # |
On November 06 2011 08:24 DBunny wrote:
What do you think of a transition in to ling + bane with double upgrades starting immediately after the initial mutas? I find that this sets up nicely for ultras and is very helpful for runbys and hatchery snipes as he is often prepared with sufficient anti air but doesn't have enough to stop the lings from just focusing down a hatch when he is out of position. Burrowed banes is also very helpful when you have denied his third enough and he just accumulates a large roach hydra army for one large bust, it usually doesn't occur to them to get an overseer in this situation. If he incorporates banes himself with infestor though it shuts this down unless you are close enough to ultras.
Transitioning in to roaches seems like a more solid choice that I have yet to tinker with, but it just seems like due to the opponents earlier upgrades and hydras/infestors that his ground army would win every engagement that wasn't by the spines. I usually only make about 7-8 muta just to deny third and kill overlords so they are almost a non-factor in an army vs army battle, should I be making more? Usually my third kicks in and I win just by having that extra base, but this doesn't work so well if he smells the mutas due to the early gas and the spines and gets his third very quickly.
Thats a fine transition as long as he isn't going muta himself. If he is going mutas as well you are going to have less then him due to spending money on upgrades while he should be putting all his gas into muta + muta upgrades.
You can do burrowed banelings, I know I have an overseer with me when I would go roach/hydra vs muta but I do know that most zergs don't do this for some reason so this is probably good to do, especially if they don't go muta themselves.
If you spread your banelings properly (which you should once you see infestors honestly), it takes 2 fungels to kill them so if he wastes a fungel on that you should have 2 control groups of ling/bane for flanking and spread out a bit so 1 fungel doesn't get most of them. You should do this with muta as well before engaging so that he doesn't get all your muta with 1 fungel.
Making more muta is up to you, there isn't a must but if he is going muta as well you should probably transition if you don't like muta vs muta battles but then you lose map control, I personally make more but you don't have to. |
| | When I think of something else, something will go here |
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| decaf Austria. November 06 2011 09:08. Posts 1724 | Profile # |
This is a great little guide.
A suggestion, when it's hatch first vs hatch first you should get gas before pool, this will give you earlier speed and that may decide the game in some situations. I usually do 15 hatch 16 gas 16 pool 17 overlord in ZvZ if both players went for hatch first.
Also you didn't cover the scenario if both players went for mutas, this is quite different from only one player opting for mutalisks. I covered it in my muta zvz guide I wrote way back ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=198622 ), but I consider it kinda outdated, although it still might be a great build.
Something I also find very useful when going mutas is baneling landmines to kill of huge packs of hydras/infestors when they're moving towards your ramp. You can just clean up his army after that, because all the AA will be gone. |
| | "Caffeine is ridiculous right now" -RZA |
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| galtdunn United States. November 06 2011 09:36. Posts 799 | Profile # |
| Can you write more about muta v muta battles? How to handle them, when to stop making mutas, etc? |
| | Currently editing items in the DotA 2 wiki. PM for questions/suggestions. | |
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| blade55555 United States. November 06 2011 09:38. Posts 14256 | Profile Blog # |
On November 06 2011 09:36 galtdunn wrote:
Can you write more about muta v muta battles? How to handle them, when to stop making mutas, etc?
To be honest I don't really know what else to put there. in muta vs muta I just continue making muta and expanding so I can have the superior muta flock. Transitioning can be hard because you are giving up your investment into muta's which if you make even just 8 muta thats 800 gas wasted.
So I feel if you go muta, and he goes muta you have to continue as tech changing just gives up map control and lets him take more bases then you. |
| | When I think of something else, something will go here |
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| MrPancakes England. November 06 2011 09:44. Posts 5 | Profile # |
The reason that most zergs transition to ultras is that all the units built that can kill mutas ( hydras, infestors and corruprtors)
are hard countered by ultras. Last edit: 2011-11-06 09:44:59 |
| | Destiny - "JIMMY NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" |
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| Erasme France. November 06 2011 09:59. Posts 4239 | Profile Blog # |
A little trick to do when your opponent is taking his third with hydra/roach, is to make 15 or so speedbanelings, fly next his third so he see your mutas and hopefully he'll camp his third with only hydra. Then just a move with banelings and sweep the expansion with muta :D
Against infestors I usually split my ling/bling by group of 6bling/6lings and I try to engage directly his hydra or infestors while avoiding his roach. At worst you make him waste fungals, at best you kill groups of hydra/infestors ;D |
| | I've been on wodota. What have you been doing with your life ? |
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| TALegion United States. November 06 2011 10:14. Posts 1126 | Profile # |
| Just read all of your guides today. It's an AMAZING help. Thanks, man. |
| | A person willing to die for a cause is a hero. A person willing to kill for a cause is a madman |
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| Scisyhp United States. November 06 2011 10:18. Posts 200 | Profile Blog # |
Personally I really like the small 6-8 muta flock to kill overlords, then going into roach/infestor. It's so nice to have that full level of map control to easily get expansions, and lots of overlord kills + keeping your opponent in his base. I've had some success with banelings in direct fights against roach/hydra and it works really well when it happens but it's often hard with roaches in the front. I want to try out clumps of like 3 (i think that kills hydras) burrowed banelings but I haven't really had the chance to yet.
What's the best way to do ling/muta vs roach/infestor? Just get banelings and try to hit hydras with banelings then clean up roaches with mutas? I know mutas do ok vs hydras too so if a few explosions go off I'm usually good. Could you write some more about mutas without going roaches too (even though I personally like that more and do that most often). |
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| blade55555 United States. November 06 2011 10:22. Posts 14256 | Profile Blog # |
On November 06 2011 10:18 Scisyhp wrote:
Personally I really like the small 6-8 muta flock to kill overlords, then going into roach/infestor. It's so nice to have that full level of map control to easily get expansions, and lots of overlord kills + keeping your opponent in his base. I've had some success with banelings in direct fights against roach/hydra and it works really well when it happens but it's often hard with roaches in the front. I want to try out clumps of like 3 (i think that kills hydras) burrowed banelings but I haven't really had the chance to yet.
What's the best way to do ling/muta vs roach/infestor? Just get banelings and try to hit hydras with banelings then clean up roaches with mutas? I know mutas do ok vs hydras too so if a few explosions go off I'm usually good. Could you write some more about mutas without going roaches too (even though I personally like that more and do that most often).
You should have seperate control groups of ling bane so that you can flank. One from the front, back and sides if possible that way he can't just fungel on one side, he'd have to fungel in 4 different directions to get all of them (and now banes take 2 fungels to kill). So if you do a good flank you should be able to kill the hydra's and have the muta's clean the rest while lings also help of course. |
| | When I think of something else, something will go here |
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| RabidSeagull United States. November 06 2011 11:21. Posts 215 | Profile # |
| Nice guide blade, you consistently have some of the better posts in the strat section and I enjoy your stream enough to have it 'favorited' with the new TL stream feature, keep it up bro! |
| | That'll do Pigley, that'll do . . . |
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| ALPINA Lithuania. November 06 2011 22:34. Posts 3773 | Profile # |
| I play myself muta/ling into ultras, but the problem is some strong timing just kills me before I get ultras. Something like 2 base hydra/infestor timing is nearly impossible to defend, unless you blow up 20 banelings into hydras, which should never happen. Lings are useless as well vs. infestors. One thing i could think of is going mass spines and doing counterattack but again that only if map allows that. |
| | You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity |
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| decaf Austria. November 06 2011 23:02. Posts 1724 | Profile # |
On November 06 2011 09:38 blade55555 wrote:
You should continue getting muta attack upgrades if he keeps going muta.
This is not quite true and one of the reasons I win muta vs muta battles. Armor upgrade >> attack upgrade. Let's say you have 8 mutas with +1 armor and your opponent has 10 mutas with +1 attack, guess what, you'll win. Muta vs muta and muta vs thor (you stop at 1 armor vs thor though) is the only 2 situations where you want to get the armor upgrade over the attack upgrade. |
| | "Caffeine is ridiculous right now" -RZA |
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| Trakky November 07 2011 01:22. Posts 95 | Profile # |
| I agree that getting armor upgrade vs muta is way better than getting atk upgrade. This is why Huk gets +3 armor while only having the initial +1 atk for his stalkers as soon as he sees mutas, because this will make the bounces do very little damage. |
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