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| Ceio Scotland. December 02 2011 12:25. Posts 23 | Profile # |
First off, this isnt me complaining at all about this strategy used by the protoss, but actually I would like some feedback on an idea that I will be trying out in some future games when I get some free time and I am not studying.
So i was playing some 2v2 the other day with a mate of mine and we were reminiscing over the good old baneling toilet that existed for a while and it got me thinking, archons are not the only unit that benefit from the vortex.
The current problem is that if protoss vortex's all the brood lords and sends 5-6 archons in there, the archons can be force targeted to kill all these clumped up brood lords. But, what if there were 30 or so banelings put in there by the zerg, it takes 18 banelings or so if i remember correctly to kill an archon, and these banelings are surely going to detonate to kill most of the archons or at least soften up a ton of them. 30 Banelings are only 15 supply of army, they cost, 750 minerals first for the 30 zerglings and then 750/750 to make the banelings, so a 1500/750 investment in total.
Even 2 or 3 ultralisks thrown in there would help finish off a few weakened archons, and in a situation where protoss just lost 16-28 supply of archons which were his AA, isnt zerg going to win that battle? or even clear out enough of it that the remax is actually effective?
I am going to experiment with this in my future games and even customs with some friends, ill post my results afterwards although that might not be for a few weeks since ive got exams starting on monday. Let me know what you guys think, and maybe we can start to come up with an answer for dealing with the archon toilet!
Side note, for those curious, yes i am a EU masters zerg so this is not an idea from a bronze leaguer with little experience  ( no hate out there to the bronze leaguers, u guys are awesome!) |
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| BroboCop United States. December 02 2011 12:29. Posts 373 | Profile # |
| wrong section i think. and there is a .5sec or 1sec invincibility on units that go into the vortex to avoid the "toilet" scenario. too lazy to find the patch notes to prove it. |
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| poorcloud Singapore. December 02 2011 12:31. Posts 2392 | Profile # |
| I think there was a guide that highlighted someone countering this archon toilet shenaningans with banelings. It was pretty effective from the replays. |
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| Ceio Scotland. December 02 2011 12:31. Posts 23 | Profile # |
| I apologise if this is the wrong section, and what you are talking about is an immunity, tested on the unit test map that the banelings dont explode until the immunity wears out, all attacking is disabled by all immune units anyway, including archons, all I am lacking is real scenario evidence and if the banelings can be acquired in time for a maxed protoss push etc. like i said ill be experimenting with it later. |
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| Kira__ Sweden. December 02 2011 12:31. Posts 2672 | Profile # |
| The units are invulnerable when they exit the vortex, but the banelings auto explode upon exiting. |
| | The truth is, Yagami-kun, I suspect that you may in fact be Kira. |
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| Naughty United States. December 02 2011 12:32. Posts 113 | Profile # |
| So your suggesting if you scout a mother ship and have a heavy broodlord army to keep 30 banelings on hand to toss into the toilet. that part I understand but keeping those banes alive and close enough to your army to make it into the vortex in time might be a rather difficult task. |
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| SafeAsCheese United States. December 02 2011 12:33. Posts 4717 | Profile # |
On December 02 2011 12:31 Ceio wrote:
I apologise if this is the wrong section, and what you are talking about is an immunity, tested on the unit test map that the banelings dont explode until the immunity wears out, all attacking is disabled by all immune units anyway, including archons, all I am lacking is real scenario evidence and if the banelings can be acquired in time for a maxed protoss push etc. like i said ill be experimenting with it later.
Archons, and all ground units, spread out extremely fast after vortex
brood lord, corruptor, and muta do not, because there is no air collision
the banes won't kill all the archons. |
| | Fan of ------- P : Huk, Naniwa, Hero ------- Z : Idra, Stephano, Ret ------- T : MVP, MMA, Thorzain |
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| Ceio Scotland. December 02 2011 12:33. Posts 23 | Profile # |
On December 02 2011 12:31 Kira__ wrote:
The units are invulnerable when they exit the vortex, but the banelings auto explode upon exiting.
In the post above yours I explained that the banelings do not auto-explode upon exiting the vortex, they wait for the immunity |
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| Ceio Scotland. December 02 2011 12:34. Posts 23 | Profile # |
On December 02 2011 12:33 SafeAsCheese wrote:
Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 12:31 Ceio wrote:
I apologise if this is the wrong section, and what you are talking about is an immunity, tested on the unit test map that the banelings dont explode until the immunity wears out, all attacking is disabled by all immune units anyway, including archons, all I am lacking is real scenario evidence and if the banelings can be acquired in time for a maxed protoss push etc. like i said ill be experimenting with it later.
Archons, and all ground units, spread out extremely fast after vortex brood lord, corruptor, and muta do not, because there is no air collision the banes won't kill all the archons.
I know they wont kill every archon, but they should surely kill the majority of them and soften up a lot of them, 3 archons attacking broods is a lot less devastating than 5-6. Like i said, i cannot show any evidence until I see this in a real battle situation in a game |
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| Kharnage Australia. December 02 2011 12:40. Posts 831 | Profile # |
Wouldn't the archons fire at the same time as the banes explode? so in the best case scenario you lose all your banes and all your BL (or they are on super low hp to be finished off by some stalkers or whatever)
the idea is the 6 or 8 archons only need to fire once. |
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| Resistentialism Canada. December 02 2011 12:40. Posts 684 | Profile Blog # |
On December 02 2011 12:33 SafeAsCheese wrote:
Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 12:31 Ceio wrote:
I apologise if this is the wrong section, and what you are talking about is an immunity, tested on the unit test map that the banelings dont explode until the immunity wears out, all attacking is disabled by all immune units anyway, including archons, all I am lacking is real scenario evidence and if the banelings can be acquired in time for a maxed protoss push etc. like i said ill be experimenting with it later.
Archons, and all ground units, spread out extremely fast after vortex brood lord, corruptor, and muta do not, because there is no air collision the banes won't kill all the archons.
Not that this deals with the OP, but mutas and corruptors actually spread quickly enough that they'll probably only take a major beating rather than getting outright killed. Just gotta keep your broodlords carefully split before the vortex goes down. |
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| Ceio Scotland. December 02 2011 12:45. Posts 23 | Profile # |
On December 02 2011 12:40 Kharnage wrote:
Wouldn't the archons fire at the same time as the banes explode? so in the best case scenario you lose all your banes and all your BL (or they are on super low hp to be finished off by some stalkers or whatever)
the idea is the 6 or 8 archons only need to fire once.
Your assuming a pure brood lord army and only banelings, I sort of envision this as:
8 or so brood lords, 3-4 ultralisks, 30 banelings, 4-5 infestors, and the rest as roach/corruptor.
Total: around 110 supply or so, and the idea is that you can at least break down enough of the protoss army to make the re-max viable, And really, I believe this sort of composition should clean up most of the protoss army obviously depending on positioning etc. And Yes, i expect the broods would all be on half health or so, but the protoss shouldnt have much more than 20 stalkers if its a late game army composition battle, so the broods should do decently well, and remember the ultralisks are still leftover and any other support.
This is not giving a zerg deathball that cant be destroyed, its more of a response to dealing with the archon toilet in general, which you should be able to scout, via fleet beacon. Also on a plus side, If I am investing in banelings i see a lot more harass opportunities available with baneling drops, just an idea. |
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| Kharnage Australia. December 02 2011 12:57. Posts 831 | Profile # |
On December 02 2011 12:45 Ceio wrote:
Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 12:40 Kharnage wrote:
Wouldn't the archons fire at the same time as the banes explode? so in the best case scenario you lose all your banes and all your BL (or they are on super low hp to be finished off by some stalkers or whatever)
the idea is the 6 or 8 archons only need to fire once.
Your assuming a pure brood lord army and only banelings, I sort of envision this as: 8 or so brood lords, 3-4 ultralisks, 30 banelings, 4-5 infestors, and the rest as roach/corruptor. Total: around 110 supply or so, and the idea is that you can at least break down enough of the protoss army to make the re-max viable, And really, I believe this sort of composition should clean up most of the protoss army obviously depending on positioning etc. And Yes, i expect the broods would all be on half health or so, but the protoss shouldnt have much more than 20 stalkers if its a late game army composition battle, so the broods should do decently well, and remember the ultralisks are still leftover and any other support. This is not giving a zerg deathball that cant be destroyed, its more of a response to dealing with the archon toilet in general, which you should be able to scout, via fleet beacon. Also on a plus side, If I am investing in banelings i see a lot more harass opportunities available with baneling drops, just an idea.
i'm trying to cut out the variables.
how much of that magic composition also ended up in the vortex? if it didn't where is it now? how much died before the vortex went down? has the protoss got storms prepped to hit after the archons fire? did the infestors go in? did zealots go in?
otherwise, sure, if you have any army composition you want with any economy you want on any map you want vs a protoss in a situation you choose putting banelings in a vortex sounds like a great idea.
otherwise i'll just pick a random 8 or so carriers, a mothership, 5-6 archons, 4-5 HT the rest as zealot/stalker/sentry. |
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 RastaMonsta December 02 2011 12:59. Posts 304 | Profile # |
| im surprised i thought the archon toilet doesnt exsist anymore? |
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| Samp Canada. December 02 2011 12:59. Posts 781 | Profile # |
im assuming it would kill the archons with the banelings, but if a protoss sees a zerg putting a sh1tload of banelings into a vortex, he wont put his archon in it, and the banes are a huggggggggeeeee investment.
On December 02 2011 12:59 RastaMonsta wrote:
im surprised i thought the archon toilet doesnt exsist anymore?
ohh it does my friend...it does..Last edit: 2011-12-02 13:00:20 |
| | Banelings, "They're cute, they live in a nest". -Artosis |
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| iky43210 United States. December 02 2011 13:00. Posts 1951 | Profile Blog # |
have you thought of splitting your army?
or infestors fungal, infestors NP (and waste its energy quickly). |
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| Kharnage Australia. December 02 2011 13:14. Posts 831 | Profile # |
On December 02 2011 12:59 RastaMonsta wrote:
im surprised i thought the archon toilet doesnt exsist anymore?
it's not as good as it was, but it's still pretty darn good.
The problem with archons is always getting them close enough to hit anything. They are slow and the zealots get in the way etc.
Vortex solves that problem.
So even if the zerg army spreads out a bit when the vortex ends, 8 archons in the middle of their army still does HUGE damage.
On December 02 2011 13:00 iky43210 wrote:
have you thought of splitting your army?
or infestors fungal, infestors NP (and waste its energy quickly).
Why micro when build orders can solve your problem for you?  Last edit: 2011-12-02 13:15:56 |
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| schmutttt Australia. December 02 2011 13:16. Posts 1575 | Profile # |
| The archon toilet is still broken because air units clump up still, and archons shred all Zerg air. |
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| Lumi United States. December 02 2011 13:19. Posts 1022 | Profile # |
| you put banelings in the toilet. if you're not GM and you're calling this broken, you're completely full of it. I'm high masters zerg and it's not a problem for me because i've practiced vs it instead of whining and calling imba despite being awful at the game Last edit: 2011-12-02 13:23:26 |
| | KT_Violet 1988 - 2012 | n.Die_aSam 1992 - 2012 |
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| jeeneeus December 02 2011 13:22. Posts 1100 | Profile Blog # |
| I decided to test this instead of sitting here theorycrafting. Normally it takes 14 banes to kill a single archon. The thing about the 1.5 sec invulnerability is that it allows the archons to spread out before they invulnerability wears off. Because of this, the banes aren't that effective. You need roughly 7 banes per archon (525/175/3.5 vs 100/300/4 (min/gas/food)), assuming the banes are at +3 attack and the archons at +0 shields. Also with 5 archons, they will leave your broodlords at half hp before they die. I guess it might be a decent idea, but it also means you have to leave the rest of your army outside the vortex and fight against their max army minus the archons. Or you can run away, but they you essentially are losing the broods, which was what you're trying to avoid. And of course throwing it into the vortex isn't great either, since that will hurt you a bunch. |
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