Carriers suck - Page 2

lol yeah, mass dt->d. archon->mc 12 wraiths, cars' then > the tanks...
Come on, nothing is ever that clear cut unless you're playing a total n00b in which case you should have beaten him with your scouting scv.

I've seen many games where p was about to bite it, but then used cars' to make a comeback. Usually not possible with any other unit, which is what makes them feel so powerful.

Last edit: 2003-03-31 23:46:45

Before enlightenment, chop wood, pour water. After enlightenment, chop wood, pour water.

maleorderbride United States. April 01 2003 02:18. Posts 2915

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Try not using carriers some time vulture boy. You may find this will force you to macro better in order to keep up with your minerals. You might also develope better micro because you are not depending on a largely less micro oriented unit to win all late games for you. If you read both paragraphs of my post you may catch the hint that I believe carriers are not always the best option.
To expand on this: it seems that there are all too many mid-level protoss who play pvt with one goal in mind; expansion into army into carriers. Carriers are not invincible, I know this. I do not think carriers are overpowering or even necessary in most long term pvt games. Carriers are very expensive and in a tight game simply converting to carriers will cause the terran to push farther and farther. Some people simply do not understand this and then use these new carriers to turn the tide of the game back in their favor. These players do not realize that it was the conversion that hurt them in the first place.
Carriers can be useful. I simply advocate learning and using different strategies to win in the game rather than complete dependence on a single unit to win in late game situations. This game is not so simple that carriers are always the answer. If this is always working for you then I suggest you find more skilled opponents.
I do consider it a point of pride to not use carriers. I do not think carriers are overpowered. I do not think this makes me more skilled than players who use carriers. If carriers were overpowered then professional toss players would go carrier constantly, which is not the case. I have seen professional players use carriers pvt, however, they use them only when it is most advantageous, not as a matter of course. I do consider not relying on carriers a useful way to increase my own micro/macro skills, and I do feel proud when I beat a "good" terran with nothing but my macro/micro, ground vs ground. I do not let the game develop into a situation that merits carriers. If you do not let the terran get both islands completely turtled up then you do not need a fleet of carriers to take it out. If i do not let the terran anhiliate my ground army becuase of my bad micro then I do not need carriers. If I do not let the terran out macro and out produce me then I do not have 2000 minerals stored up to sink into carriers as he pushes me, instead I have a larger army initially.

Btw, I realy appreciate getting flamed for my views when you assume my views for me. VultureBoy says in response to my earlier post, "I absolutely HATE how people think that using Carriers is 'cheating' or 'cheap' or whatever e.g 'I play toss and I consider it a point of pride to not use carriers.'" No where did I state that carriers are cheap or cheating, in fact my views run somewhat the opposite way. Yet VultureBoy felt the need to assume what my opinion was on carriers and flame me rather than ask me.

Last edit: 2003-04-01 02:23:09

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~Drewby Korea (South). April 01 2003 02:21. Posts 131

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Think about if you are in a Vanilla TvP...

Klogon US West. April 01 2003 02:35. Posts 15109

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too many responses to a worthless thread.

OrangeTerran United States. April 01 2003 03:38. Posts 963

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carriers over cliff are strong =[

Anaheim, California

MPXMX Canada. April 01 2003 03:46. Posts 4307

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I think carriers are a bit overpowered in TvP. The fact that protoss is not very great without them in late game does not compensate for their strength. Watch Chungsang vs Nal_Ra replay that is somewhat recent in teamliquid.net replay database. Terran dominates completely and unquestionably and then a pack of carriers +1 island (or maybe 2) kill a terran with 2x the unit count and the entire map to himself. A VERY good terran too.

There are many examples like this from progaming. IMO carriers in numbers of 6+ with enough obs do not have an effective counter from terran side. Apparently this protoss side is accepted in the -good player community-, but it really can't be said that carriers are "ez" etc. Many people say that yes

KiD[ReD] Canada. April 01 2003 03:54. Posts 2103

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"Btw, I realy appreciate getting flamed for my views when you assume my views for me. VultureBoy says in response to my earlier post, "I absolutely HATE how people think that using Carriers is 'cheating' or 'cheap' or whatever e.g 'I play toss and I consider it a point of pride to not use carriers.'" No where did I state that carriers are cheap or cheating, in fact my views run somewhat the opposite way. Yet VultureBoy felt the need to assume what my opinion was on carriers and flame me rather than ask me."

maleorderbride, I never directed that directly at you. I responded to your message about 'pride', and said "I absolutely HATE how people" I didn't say "I absolutely HATE how maleorderbride".. if you got confused and thought I was insinuating you, then I am sorry. I do, however, still strongly disagree about carriers and pride.

PokerForums.org

Liquid.Venice United States. April 01 2003 05:20. Posts 916

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the thing the complaining terrans dont realize is that the carriers are a SACRIFICE by the protoss.

the reason in those pro gamer replays that the protoss loses all their main bases in the first place, was most likely going carriers.

its a SACRIFICE.

NoNameLoser United States. April 01 2003 05:26. Posts 1505

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Carriers is the payback for overranged tanks, overfastened vults and stupid probes having their lifes taken out in 1 siege blow, lets not forget mines that never explode damageless unlike scarabs.

maleorderbride United States. April 01 2003 05:35. Posts 2915

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I am sorry VultureBoy, I must have gotten confused as to the target of your flame when you used my quote immeadiately after saying how much you hate that kind of protoss. You are right, you never said you hated me, only protoss with a certain viewpoint, the viewpoint that you then supposedly expressed with my quote.

Liquid.Venice has a gift for words. I tried to say with 500 words what he said with 50.

Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go.

MPXMX Canada. April 01 2003 06:01. Posts 4307

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NoNameLoser, lets not forget that terran gets AT LEAST 1/10 of lossses every game from own spider mines and tanks, lets not forget terran units have on average 1/2 life of protoss units (their basic fighter has more life than terran TANK), and that terrran main unit facility costs 250/150 with addon, while protoss's is 150 mins and protoss usually has upper hand in mins.

Carriers ARE a sacrifice, but the benefits overwhelm the losses.

Don't forget we are talking about late game here, when protoss and terran forces are roughly equal. Obviously if terran is owning, protoss won't have the cash or the balls to get carriers, and if the protoss is owning, he probably can win without them, but in an well-mathched game, when protoss gets carriers terran chances diminish tenfold.

Liquid.Venice United States. April 01 2003 06:22. Posts 916

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do you not understand?
when the protoss decides to start making carriers, right then the terran has his chance.
thats his opening.
if the protoss can not die during that time, he deserves the carriers and the win.

HowitZer United States. April 01 2003 06:38. Posts 1551

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I like when protoss just mass expand and get 50 gateways instead of carriers. That's a good way to just dominate the map and probably better than going carriers like grrr used to do.

Human teleportation, molecular decimation, breakdown and reformation is inherently purging. It makes a man acute.

Klogon US West. April 01 2003 07:51. Posts 15109

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unless you are just getting carriers from 1 stargate while still pumpig land units. Just slow his push down, and bring 2-3 carriers to his expansion hill and harass harass harass harass.

Liquid.Venice United States. April 01 2003 07:59. Posts 916

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That still costs 1600/1200 + time and energy..

Liquid.Venice United States. April 01 2003 07:59. Posts 916

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for 3 carriers + interceptor grade that is.
and thats without building interceptors.

iSuXOr United States. April 01 2003 09:09. Posts 606

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On March 31 2003 22:01 Mynock wrote:
Carrs = BM noob hax0r cheat 18 nom!!!!!11.

-Mynock

I have seen 18 nom before and haven't ever found out wtf it means.. explain plz :D

I want dat beta.

Liquid`Drone Norway. April 01 2003 09:11. Posts 18483

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toss is able to beat terran in lategame without using carriers, however if carriers werent part of the game then they would not be.. if a terran makes nothing but tanks and turrets and mines and waits until he has 50 tanks before moving out, then he'd be pretty much impossible to beat without carriers.. carriers have the effect that terran players can't play like that.

LOLLLL I LAUGH'D SO HARD AT UR 60 IQ COMMENT PLEASE KILL URSELF STONE AGE NOOB.

Liquid`Drone Norway. April 01 2003 09:25. Posts 18483

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some people here also seem to think that carriers require less micro/skill than zeal/goons.

to use them effectivly thats kinda "not" true. :-)

LOLLLL I LAUGH'D SO HARD AT UR 60 IQ COMMENT PLEASE KILL URSELF STONE AGE NOOB.

orca Israel. April 01 2003 09:32. Posts 469