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 Arcanefrost Belgium. April 05 2012 17:16. Posts 1119 | Profile Blog # | |
| | Valor is a poor substitute for numbers. |
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| Wingblade United States. April 22 2012 08:38. Posts 833 | Profile # |
| This might have been asked but I'm not sure. Are there specific "greedy" actions a Toss can take if double engi bays are scouted I.e. perhaps taking a faster third? |
| | "Please Protoss student, recite the alphabet." "A." PartinG and Squirtle together forever in my heart. |
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| Telenil France. April 22 2012 18:01. Posts 361 | Profile # |
I am a mere plat player, but the way the guide is written, I'd think that "greedy" means making fewer units and more tech structures. I don't know if double EB involves a 2-bases push, but if it does, you won't hold it with tech + upgrades + third.
Awesome guide btw, my PvT dramatically improved with this strat =) |
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| Teoita Italy. April 22 2012 18:04. Posts 4457 | Profile Blog # |
On April 22 2012 08:38 Wingblade wrote:
This might have been asked but I'm not sure. Are there specific "greedy" actions a Toss can take if double engi bays are scouted I.e. perhaps taking a faster third?
Reduce/cut gateway unit production; tech to colossus faster, get a third faster. |
| | Protoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright. | |
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| monk United States. April 22 2012 18:15. Posts 6993 | Profile Blog # |
| Double eng bay isn't a huge investment from terran. It only delays medivacs by about 20-30 seconds in comparison to a normal build. It does however force an early armory and an early investment into +2/+2 from the terran, which might delay the 4th + 5th raxes from him. You can do little adjustments based on this information, but I don't really have anything definitive for you. |
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| Marodox United States. May 02 2012 05:09. Posts 80 | Profile # |
Hey NrGmonk,
Im a masters P and I'm having trouble taking a 3rd when the T does the standard push out with 2 medivacs off of 3 racks. With my units split to deal with drops and col on the way, my army just doesn't have the power to secure a 3rd. What should I be doing to take a fast 3rd. Also, what is the correct response to a 4-5 racks marine power into a fast 3rd. After I hold, I usually die to the super strong 3 base push that comes after, how greedy should I be during this?
Last edit: 2012-05-02 05:34:57 |
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| monk United States. May 02 2012 05:35. Posts 6993 | Profile Blog # |
On May 02 2012 05:09 Marodox wrote:
Hey NrGmonk,
Im a masters P and I'm having trouble taking a 3rd when the T does the standard push out with 2 medivacs off of 3 racks. With my units split to deal with drops and col on the way, my army just doesn't have the power to secure a 3rd. What should I be doing to take a fast 3rd. Also, what is the correct response to a 4-5 racks marine power into a fast 3rd. After I hold, I usually die to the super strong 3 base push that comes after, how greedy should I be during this?
For the first question:
1. Use vision(obs, pylons) to split your army smartly. Don't put 5 stalkers in your main if you see your opponent's first 2 medivacs with his entire army at the front of your base.
2. Get later gas in favor of more minerals(zealots) to fight a head on army.
3. Delay your 4th-6th gateways in favor of more additional units.
4. Don't mess up forcefields.
5. Post a replay.
For the 2nd:
1. Make sentries and take a 3rd right after you convincingly hold off your opponent's 4-5 rax. Many times, the game is decided by how well you deal with the 4-5 rax aggression; if he doesn't do any damage or you crush it, you can get fairly ahead. With 4-5 rax, your opponent won't have gas for a long time. The next regular marine push isn't that scary and can be held off with forcefields. Your opponents' only choices are delayed tech or 3rd in base cc.
Lol, accidently hit edit instead of quote. |
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| Marodox United States. May 07 2012 11:01. Posts 80 | Profile # |
On May 02 2012 05:35 NrGmonk wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 05:09 Marodox wrote:
Hey NrGmonk,
Im a masters P and I'm having trouble taking a 3rd when the T does the standard push out with 2 medivacs off of 3 racks. With my units split to deal with drops and col on the way, my army just doesn't have the power to secure a 3rd. What should I be doing to take a fast 3rd. Also, what is the correct response to a 4-5 racks marine power into a fast 3rd. After I hold, I usually die to the super strong 3 base push that comes after, how greedy should I be during this?
For the first question: 1. Use vision(obs, pylons) to split your army smartly. Don't put 5 stalkers in your main if you see your opponent's first 2 medivacs with his entire army at the front of your base. 2. Get later gas in favor of more minerals(zealots) to fight a head on army. 3. Delay your 4th-6th gateways in favor of more additional units. 4. Don't mess up forcefields. 5. Post a replay. For the 2nd: 1. Make sentries and take a 3rd right after you convincingly hold off your opponent's 4-5 rax. Many times, the game is decided by how well you deal with the 4-5 rax aggression; if he doesn't do any damage or you crush it, you can get fairly ahead. With 4-5 rax, your opponent won't have gas for a long time. The next regular marine push isn't that scary and can be held off with forcefields. Your opponents' only choices are delayed tech or 3rd in base cc. Lol, accidently hit edit instead of quote.
Can you take a look at this replay?
http://drop.sc/174102
Thanks! |
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| bowenkhong Singapore. May 07 2012 22:43. Posts 43 | Profile # |
On May 07 2012 11:01 Marodox wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 05:35 NrGmonk wrote:
On May 02 2012 05:09 Marodox wrote:
Hey NrGmonk,
Im a masters P and I'm having trouble taking a 3rd when the T does the standard push out with 2 medivacs off of 3 racks. With my units split to deal with drops and col on the way, my army just doesn't have the power to secure a 3rd. What should I be doing to take a fast 3rd. Also, what is the correct response to a 4-5 racks marine power into a fast 3rd. After I hold, I usually die to the super strong 3 base push that comes after, how greedy should I be during this?
For the first question: 1. Use vision(obs, pylons) to split your army smartly. Don't put 5 stalkers in your main if you see your opponent's first 2 medivacs with his entire army at the front of your base. 2. Get later gas in favor of more minerals(zealots) to fight a head on army. 3. Delay your 4th-6th gateways in favor of more additional units. 4. Don't mess up forcefields. 5. Post a replay. For the 2nd: 1. Make sentries and take a 3rd right after you convincingly hold off your opponent's 4-5 rax. Many times, the game is decided by how well you deal with the 4-5 rax aggression; if he doesn't do any damage or you crush it, you can get fairly ahead. With 4-5 rax, your opponent won't have gas for a long time. The next regular marine push isn't that scary and can be held off with forcefields. Your opponents' only choices are delayed tech or 3rd in base cc. Lol, accidently hit edit instead of quote.
Can you take a look at this replay? http://drop.sc/174102Thanks!
hey i think you shouldn't get twilight and Robo bay at the same time. Going for double forge I think twilight and than follow up with 3 more gate will be better, his 2nd attk cost you the game coz you simple don't have enought gate to produce unit.Last edit: 2012-05-07 22:44:44 |
| | You win the game may not because you're good, is just that your opponent didn't played well enought. |
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| PoisedYeTi Australia. May 07 2012 22:52. Posts 163 | Profile # |
| Is there not a higher res image of the flowchart. It's really blurry. |
| | "Just read game like book" -WhiteRa |
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| Serge89 Belgium. May 08 2012 01:10. Posts 37 | Profile # |
Hi Fellas ! I am high diamond EU and i use this build all the time against terran with a good success. Nevertheless, i got some problems with 2 terrans builds. First, i dont know how to react to 2 rax opening stim push followed by tanks ( Very odd i know).
And second question, you basically take your third when coloss are about to pop out but what if the terran take his third early (not 3CC opening) ? Cause at this time he has a good amount of bio ball and i have no splash damage, just 2 immo and gateways units. Thanks ! |
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| Protossking Australia. May 09 2012 18:29. Posts 76 | Profile # |
Hey Monk, I have something that you should really add to your guide.
3rax starport is coming in two different forms recently, one being 2 reactors 1 tech lab mass marines and the other being 2 tech lab 1 reactor (the more standard one). This build is designed to come out ahead against the 2 tech lab builds, but simply dies to a double reactor build through sheer dps and abundance of AoE.
If you scout 2 reactors I really recommend skipping the immortals and teching to collosi as soon as possible, otherwise you will not hold his push. |
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| -Exalt- United States. May 10 2012 07:37. Posts 966 | Profile Blog # |
On May 09 2012 18:29 Protossking wrote:
Hey Monk, I have something that you should really add to your guide.
3rax starport is coming in two different forms recently, one being 2 reactors 1 tech lab mass marines and the other being 2 tech lab 1 reactor (the more standard one). This build is designed to come out ahead against the 2 tech lab builds, but simply dies to a double reactor build through sheer dps and abundance of AoE.
If you scout 2 reactors I really recommend skipping the immortals and teching to collosi as soon as possible, otherwise you will not hold his push.
I was sort of wondering this as well, although I have not been using Creator's build as much recently.
The stim marine medivac pressure comes really quick, but I'm not sure if you can get colossus out in time for it while still getting blink / double upgrades. Your best bet is to probably have a huge amount of +1+1 gateways units and/or blink/charge, but I'm not sure exactly how Creator deals with this exact double reactor build. |
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| AGIANTSMURF United States. May 10 2012 07:52. Posts 1221 | Profile Blog # |
On May 09 2012 18:29 Protossking wrote:
Hey Monk, I have something that you should really add to your guide.
3rax starport is coming in two different forms recently, one being 2 reactors 1 tech lab mass marines and the other being 2 tech lab 1 reactor (the more standard one). This build is designed to come out ahead against the 2 tech lab builds, but simply dies to a double reactor build through sheer dps and abundance of AoE.
If you scout 2 reactors I really recommend skipping the immortals and teching to collosi as soon as possible, otherwise you will not hold his push.
I dont think colossus are necessary unless you see a really heavy devotion (4-5+ rax)
I use this style every pvt and i find that this 3 rax medivac push is completely defendable on the current ladder map pool (keep in mind i have metalopolis, antiga, and korhal compound vetoed)
1-1 upgrades should be finished and you should have a minimal of 6-8 sentries 1 immortal done (2nd on the way) some zealot stalker as well as 6 gateways finished ready to warp.
Good forcefields are critical, personally i like to go a little stalker heavy. Good forcefields and if you can, try to anticipate the maneuvere they do when they lift units up to drop behind FF's Take this opportunity to step forward with your stalkers and target down the medivacs.
Im in class atm  but i will gladly upload High-master/Grandmaster replays tackling this build head on with creator style and coming out on top.Last edit: 2012-05-10 07:53:01 |
| | Thats "Grand-Master" SMURF to you..... |
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| chestnutcc India. May 10 2012 07:53. Posts 429 | Profile # |
On May 10 2012 07:37 -Exalt- wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 18:29 Protossking wrote:
Hey Monk, I have something that you should really add to your guide.
3rax starport is coming in two different forms recently, one being 2 reactors 1 tech lab mass marines and the other being 2 tech lab 1 reactor (the more standard one). This build is designed to come out ahead against the 2 tech lab builds, but simply dies to a double reactor build through sheer dps and abundance of AoE.
If you scout 2 reactors I really recommend skipping the immortals and teching to collosi as soon as possible, otherwise you will not hold his push.
I was sort of wondering this as well, although I have not been using Creator's build as much recently. The stim marine medivac pressure comes really quick, but I'm not sure if you can get colossus out in time for it while still getting blink / double upgrades. Your best bet is to probably have a huge amount of +1+1 gateways units and/or blink/charge, but I'm not sure exactly how Creator deals with this exact double reactor build.
I second this concern. The new style of multiple reactors means the medvac timing comes with a large number of marines, which both deal considerable damage and also make much deadlier doom drops.
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| AGIANTSMURF United States. May 11 2012 09:32. Posts 1221 | Profile Blog # |
On May 09 2012 18:29 Protossking wrote:
Hey Monk, I have something that you should really add to your guide.
3rax starport is coming in two different forms recently, one being 2 reactors 1 tech lab mass marines and the other being 2 tech lab 1 reactor (the more standard one). This build is designed to come out ahead against the 2 tech lab builds, but simply dies to a double reactor build through sheer dps and abundance of AoE.
If you scout 2 reactors I really recommend skipping the immortals and teching to collosi as soon as possible, otherwise you will not hold his push.
As promised, here are 2 recent high-master PvT's of me holding this push with realtive ease using the creator prime style
http://drop.sc/176285
http://drop.sc/176283
EDIT:
Here's 1 more vs. xSixVer :D
http://drop.sc/176332Last edit: 2012-05-11 10:35:24 |
| | Thats "Grand-Master" SMURF to you..... |
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| Protossking Australia. May 11 2012 12:34. Posts 76 | Profile # |
On May 11 2012 09:32 AGIANTSMURF wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 18:29 Protossking wrote:
Hey Monk, I have something that you should really add to your guide.
3rax starport is coming in two different forms recently, one being 2 reactors 1 tech lab mass marines and the other being 2 tech lab 1 reactor (the more standard one). This build is designed to come out ahead against the 2 tech lab builds, but simply dies to a double reactor build through sheer dps and abundance of AoE.
If you scout 2 reactors I really recommend skipping the immortals and teching to collosi as soon as possible, otherwise you will not hold his push.
As promised, here are 2 recent high-master PvT's of me holding this push with realtive ease using the creator prime style http://drop.sc/176285http://drop.sc/176283EDIT: Here's 1 more vs. xSixVer :D http://drop.sc/176332
I watched the first one your build isn't really resembling creatorprime style at all. When the push hits you have pure stalker sentry immortal, when creator style opens with a maximum of 5 stalkers 4 sentries and the rest zealots/2immortals. Your 2/2 was really delayed because of this and your build just didn't flow properly at all. You don't have a robotics bay at 11 minutes and you still haven't started 2/2, usually my 2/2 will be halfway complete and I will have a collosus coming out momentarily. If the terran was smart he just wouldn't engage against 8 sentries and stalkers up a ramp, he would simply back off take a third and out-macro you since you don't have enough gas to transition from this unit combination. It actually seems like an all-in to me with 1/1 blink immortal sentry. Robotics bay comes up at like 14minutes..
Obviously you can hold it off without going creatorprime, I'm more thinking about zealot 5 stalkers 4 sentrys where you can't just make ff donuts etc.
oh and here's a replay showing that if you cut corners to get faster collosi and forcefield your ramp a few times you can get a collosus out to deal with his push.(also high master)
http://sc2rep.com/replays/%28T%29KinetiC_vs_%28P%29MxGPezz/19667
Last edit: 2012-05-11 12:37:41 |
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| Wingblade United States. May 12 2012 08:38. Posts 833 | Profile # |
| I've been playing a similar CreatorPrime style PvT for over a month, but I have always gotten the robo bay before the additional gates. Is it better with the additional gates sooner because I find that getting the colossi AoE out faster allows me to pack more punch and get my third up a tad quicker. |
| | "Please Protoss student, recite the alphabet." "A." PartinG and Squirtle together forever in my heart. |
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| SoniC_eu Denmark. May 12 2012 08:45. Posts 804 | Profile # |
As a terran this build makes me shudder lol  Nice work on the OP man. Very nice explainations, replays, and a totally badass diagram at the end. Awesome! Great work *shoulder clap* |
| | In order to succeed, your desire for success should be greater than your fear of failure. http://da.twitch.tv/sonic_eu |
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| monk United States. May 12 2012 09:12. Posts 6993 | Profile Blog # |
On May 07 2012 11:01 Marodox wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 05:35 NrGmonk wrote:
On May 02 2012 05:09 Marodox wrote:
Hey NrGmonk,
Im a masters P and I'm having trouble taking a 3rd when the T does the standard push out with 2 medivacs off of 3 racks. With my units split to deal with drops and col on the way, my army just doesn't have the power to secure a 3rd. What should I be doing to take a fast 3rd. Also, what is the correct response to a 4-5 racks marine power into a fast 3rd. After I hold, I usually die to the super strong 3 base push that comes after, how greedy should I be during this?
For the first question: 1. Use vision(obs, pylons) to split your army smartly. Don't put 5 stalkers in your main if you see your opponent's first 2 medivacs with his entire army at the front of your base. 2. Get later gas in favor of more minerals(zealots) to fight a head on army. 3. Delay your 4th-6th gateways in favor of more additional units. 4. Don't mess up forcefields. 5. Post a replay. For the 2nd: 1. Make sentries and take a 3rd right after you convincingly hold off your opponent's 4-5 rax. Many times, the game is decided by how well you deal with the 4-5 rax aggression; if he doesn't do any damage or you crush it, you can get fairly ahead. With 4-5 rax, your opponent won't have gas for a long time. The next regular marine push isn't that scary and can be held off with forcefields. Your opponents' only choices are delayed tech or 3rd in base cc. Lol, accidently hit edit instead of quote.
Can you take a look at this replay? http://drop.sc/174102Thanks!
You fell quite behind from the 5 rax aggression. Even though you lost fewer resources in that fight, you lost valuable sentries and didn't bother to replace them. You need to be more forward with your stalkers and scout/kite his marines with stalkers across the map. You need to take a faster 3rd after you hold it off, especially when you see his 3rd, which you didn't. A huge mistake was that you didn't bother to replace your sentry count. Instead you tried to rush colossi, which could have worked except your colossi was too late. |
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