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Content: 1. PvZ NexusGateGateGate - Whats that? 2. Why would you do that? 3. On Shakuras only? 4. What do I have to build? 5. I stopped making zealots and hes not dead 6. Thinking is too hard for me 7. I want proof this works 8. Buuuuuuuuuuuuut ...
Less fun, more serious: Overview: + Show Spoiler + 1. Intro 2. Use 3. Maps? 4. Detailed BO 5. Follow up 6. Strength/Weakness 7. Replays 8. FAQ
1. PvZ NexusGateGateGate - Whats that?
Getting started - Wallin vs Ling runby (Note: Hidden probe-more later)
You basicly open up with Pylon at ramp, Nexus and 3 Gateways to create a wall, preventing early runbys. Best vs no gas from Zerg, and any Pool 12+. Playable vs Gas, but a bit more complex.
2. Why would you do that?
Its an easy concept, very hard to master. If you practise a pretty rare and complex/aggressive opening you will have an experience advantage. You will apply huge pressure and therefore many tough decision have to be made by you and your opponent. While he is facing something new and unexpected, trying hard to think of ways to react, you will probably know the answer to most of his actions and overcome slight BO weaknesses by that. Also its fun and motivating to play solid aggressive openings once in a while instead of grinding out straight forward 2 Base 12 min all-ins.
Sounds nice, but what are we exactly talking about?
First another basic contept: People play FFE to deal with Zerglings (runbys), since Zealots cant catch them. Fighting them straight up is no problem and even becomes pretty cost effective in early stages of the game for Protoss if you can make even trades while maintaining your save position. We gain our save position by getting a complete wall, and afterwards go by - offensive is best defensive. Second Reason why FFE is the way to go are early Busts, since Fast Expanding always creates openings for early aggression and Wallin+Cannon is pretty good against most of that. But as we all know, Roaches are pretty good so we cant stick to our offensive is best defensive for too long.
Breaking those two concepts down and fitting it into this actual BO: We wanna create complex situations to take advantage of, trade minerals (and timing) on equal basis which always helps Protoss (Zerg has to use Larva/direct Eco to make enough defense by getting Zerglings, Crawlers, Queens or Roaches) since we can continue to produce probes, and we gain mapcontrol for a short but very important timeframe.
Enough of this random chitchat, give me an average walkthrough! You finish your Gateways, produce some Zealots and move out to grab a watchtower. Depending on Zergs opening, it already gets tough to generalize, but let me go on. While making Probes and your first few Zealots you start your Forge as soon as you can afford it*, make a safety cannon and when a mighty voice tells you, you go back to your ramp and play your normal game.
*Why not Core+Gas? Thats possible but my approach is solid/aggressive, not greedy/aggressive which is possible but even more complex.
Thats it? Doesnt sound like a big deal Well you are right, most of the time we dont even have to fight to get your goals done.
- By just grabbing WT/mapcontrol Zerg is faced by a tough decision on how to defend. We could attack/commit any time and since hes low on production/larva in this stage of the game while we make probes non stop, everything hurts for him.
- While we have mapcontrol we can hide the probe that made our 3 Gateways somewhere on the map and Zerg cant spend his easy time (he normal has vs FFE) where we dont have a single unit to search for hidden probes. This is huge because most follow ups invole Gatewaypressure and a hidden probe is worth diamonds.
- If he does decide to Roachpush, we see that in advance. Forge+Wallin probably up and we even have some Zealots to delay a very early Push, so we are pretty save vs those shenanigans
3. On Shakuras only?
No, but for starters yes! You can play that on every Map where 3 Gates make a solid wall. Like Antiga Shipyard (not solid but with Pylon), Nerazim Crypt, Abyssal Caverns and Tal Darim Altar and enough space for cannons behind. Its not possible on Metalopolis and Shattered Temple where SimCity is the way to Expand.
Shakuras has the positive point of having a ramp. You can block with 2 FFs and Zerg needs highgroundvision. On the flat maps its alot harder to cover all your Gates and Roachbusts are a bit stronger.
4. What do I have to build?
Scouting: If he does a normal Pool without fast gas, you check his natural/larvasave/gastaketiming. If hes Dronescouting, saving for 6 Lings, takes fast gas or things like that you can always FFE if you feel like it. 13p 6 Ling+Dronescout blocking your Wall can hurt like hell, but if hes doing 6 Ling+Dronescout it takes a big toll and your FFE is even stronger. You have to keep his Lings busy for a few second and distract them from running straight across the map, so you wont have any Lings attack/blocking your spawnpoint which can create ugly situations. When hes scouting your Gates with his Overlord he will add a few Lings most of the time so you wont be able to scout his Main with your probe again most of the time later on so try to go in again and check his gas if possbile.
Opening:
9 Pylon, Scout 3 Chrono on Nexus 17 Nexus 17 Gate 17 Gate 17 Gate 17 Pylon Probes Zealots
You should do 4-6 Zealots 90% of the time with 2 or 3 Chronoboosts. It always depends on how the game feels and what you've scouted.
Without fast gas he wont have Speedlings by the time you go up to 3 Zealots so you always move out with those. Get the WT and gather up to 4-6 Zeals while keeping both WT at best, move your 2nd Gatewayprobe to check for 3rd (if he has 3rd you can make more Zealots and apply real pressure since he wont have speed/roaches any time soon), maybe suicide Scout his Natural with Probe and start poking his creep. You should have your Forge ready or at least making at that time. I strongly suggest to never commit. Noone will die to that. Just move back after getting a peek. He wont die means we forced enough defense to hurt him. Trading units early on feels okish since Zerg cant make eco/units, but believe me, trading very inefficient isnt worth it. This brief second you have vision on the highground must be enough to roughly judge the situation just for intel. Maybe he gives away something interesting.
Does he have mass Ling waiting for speed (mb Banelingbust)? Does he have a Spinecrawler or two (2+ - mb hard tech, 1-maybe low Lingcount into fast Roach with late Gas - you should keep WT with that, because he will be low on Lings 90% of the time)? Does he have 3+ Queens (mb no Stargate followup)? Do Roaches spawn (mb more Cannons for not dieing)?
Beside this little information you should always get a Cannon and move back to play your normal game.
5. I stopped making zealots and hes not dead
Well. You have a nice setup of defense (3 big buildings+1-2 Cannons), already some Gateway infrastructure and more mineral income than needed. Most followups include taking 4 Gas, making Core and doing whatever you feel like. This build is focused on the first ~6 minutes of the game, you can play your own game afterwards.
I like to go Warpprism afterwards if he didnt defend very passive (with Crawler+Queen), because I dont have the trouble adding Gateways, I can make robo right after core, build a couple of sentrys without Warpgate, Chrono +1 and when my Prism is at his Main, WP is ready and meanwhile I can poke with my starting Zeals at his 3rd and kill Creeptumors on the way.
Dropping his Main
While poking front/3rd, also possible with hidden Pylon for backup
I used that Strat in Replays 1, 2 and 10. Most of the other Replays follow up with boring 2 Base Colossuspush.
6. Thinking is too hard for me
Not everyone is a TLO, thats why strats like that are rarely seen. Thinking and playing is hard and you will probably fail a few times doing that because your reaction is wrong/slow or you commit. Nearly every game will play different, you will kill a few more Zerglings here, lose a couple of Zealots there, make 3 Cannons instead of 1 to be safe etc. Thats why you wont ever feel 100% comfortable and both sides are under more pressure than usual. Little things (of information) matter and getting a good read might win the game outright or getting a wrong read may also cause a disaster.
What are you doing Zerg? That doesnt work.
This whole thing can be played alot harder/more aggressive/more greedy but I tried to make it as easy and straight forward as possible
Summary:
- Solid/Aggressive Opening
- Risky early on before first Zealots are out
- afterwards gain Mapcontrol+build Forge
- Apply pressure,scout, dont commit
- hide Scoutprobe
- maybe see incoming Allin
- move back, take 4 Gas, play your own Game
7. I want proof this works Download Replay Pack
List of Games/Descirption + Show Spoiler + All Games on Shakuras since last patch vs Master/GM on EU.
17 - Bensen - 14p/no gas 16 - Snake - 15p/no gas 1 - RGIMatiz 15p/no gas - fast 3rd 2 - jon 15p/gas 14 - Strand - 15p/no gas - into roach 13 - Lowely - 13p/gas 12 - Flying 13g/13p fake hatch into roach 11 - Devil 13p/15g - lingpressure - no exp Hydranydus 10 - Naugrim 14p/no gas 9 - Ziktomini - 15p/no gas - roach 8 - roxkisslivko 15p/no gas fast 3rd - lose game won but greed is good 7 - Imbaman 13p/no gas - delayed roach push 6 - LoLvsxd 15p/no gas 5 - RageSeala 15p/no gas roachpoke into eco - lose Cannonfail into everything way too late 4 - Mangulina 15p - Massling into Bling
Also from sc2gears: BO on every map (including those mentioned above):
BO on Shakuras only:
8. Buuuuuuuuuuuuut ...
1. I dont know whether hes making 6 Lings or not when I decide on my BO. - You are right. If he does 6 Ling, just make sure to distract them, make a blocking Pylon at his natural etc.
2. Kiwikaki was first to use Zealotpressure. - His BO is completely different. Hes doing Forge into Cannon + 2 Gateway. Its a bit saver and playable on every map but therefore weaker and slower overall.
3. If its a good strat, why koreans (noone else) dont play it? - Its very complex and if Zerg reacts 100% right, he should be slightly ahead.
4. Why even bother playing it then? - As stated above, its fun and motivating. And its very unlikely, that your opponent knows/finds how to react perfectly to your version of this BO so you should get at least even basicly every game.
5. Im Zerg. I lose to that all the time now, whats the best counter? - Probably (Im not sure myself) keeping your 4-6 Lings together, getting a 3rd Queen and making ~5 Roaches (see Replay Shak5).Afterwards you start droning again. You regain Mapcontrol and Protoss doesnt know how much you are committing.
6. Whats the most common response from Zerg? - Roaches in any kind of form. With or without Hatch, 5, 10, 20, with and without Eco. Most of the times a random amount of Roaches will attack, thats why I suggest minimum 1, most of the time 2 Cannons.
7. Would zerg not have completely free overlordvision in you main for a long time? I also think he should be able to scout your gateways pretty fast and have every chance to respond apropriatly -Yes you are 100% right. Thats why I hardly ever do more than 6 Zeals, because more Zealots would be a big investement which Zerg could afford to hold with muss less to invest from his side. Forcing a Roachwarren just to make 5 Roaches makes the roachwarren even more expensive in the early stages. And as said many times, I dont wanna commit/kill/cripple Zerg, so its perfectly fine if Zerg gets his defense up. But getting defense up alone is far away from playing perfectly, therefore not much to worry about.
Core is later, for that I gain mapcontrol, intel, pressure and Zerg has to invest too. My Eco should be a bit better than normal compared to Zerg and Tech a bit delayed plus the features stated before.
Feel free to leave comments/feedback/replays Thanks for reading
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This is a REALLY good build against any pool 12+ (with no gas). Gas openers would be weird to handle, but then again like you said, you can always just FFE. Of course, you have to have pretty sick game sense and scouting, because there are a few scary timings where you can just die if you're not scouting perfectly.
Well, I have no problems with it because I open 9p in ZvP. I'd just force you to FFE then go from there.
I have a question though:
- Why WP over SG transition? You probably forced a ton of lings, spines, or roaches, and if he has good OL spread, your harass might not pay off at all, and you could give him a chance to catch back up in the game. Whereas with something like a double SG, I'd then have to make spores, more queens...
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On December 11 2011 22:12 Flonomenalz wrote: - Why WP over SG transition? You probably forced a ton of lings, spines, or roaches, and if he has good OL spread, your harass might not pay off at all, and you could give him a chance to catch back up in the game. Whereas with something like a double SG, I'd then have to make spores, more queens...
The best way to defend vs Warpprism is having roaches waiting there. Lings can be ok, but can be fooled by FFs. If I pressure front meanwhile with +1/6+ Zeals which are leftover from my initial pressure (maybe with off/hidden Pylon) he has to split his DPS force, which can result in even more openings/mistakes. Thats just a way of using those left over Zealots for a real purpose instead of just letting them tank fire 5s in later stages of the game.
Other than that, every follow up is fine and completly up to your own preference.
e: If he overreacts (a ton of lings/roach/crawler) early in the game VR is probably better choice, but that hardly happens at my level, but will happen alot in lower leagues I think.
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this looks interesting for some maps, but i'm not sure i'd take it over Kiwi's 2-gate style even on shakuras plateau. if your goal is to get the zerg player to be in the dark on how much he needs to commit to defend against your opening, and a secondary goal to that is to see what the zerg player is doing, why don't 2 gateways suffice? your tech will come out sooner, and you end up in the same situation that this build places you in.
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Very well written guide. One question though. What if someone goes for a juylzerg ling bling all in july used to do vs terrans a lot? That one comes around the 8 minute mark with about 15 banelings and 40 lings. Cannons aren't enough to deal with that. you'll need forcefields (many of em) or you'll have a ton of zerglings in your main.
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funny - i've been using this exact build for a couple of months now. it IS quite successful, then again i have a pretty good win ratio against zerg overall, so it's not unexpected.
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On December 11 2011 22:21 listal wrote: this looks interesting for some maps, but i'm not sure i'd take it over Kiwi's 2-gate style even on shakuras plateau. if your goal is to get the zerg player to be in the dark on how much he needs to commit to defend against your opening, and a secondary goal to that is to see what the zerg player is doing, why don't 2 gateways suffice? your tech will come out sooner, and you end up in the same situation that this build places you in.
Kiwi makes cannons which would not be needed with full wall on Shakuras. He makes Gates after Forge and therefore has less Units, slower Units and the timing window where Zerg is really low on Larva (14 pool on 1 Hatch still f.e.), where making defense hurts him the most is very small. I dont Skip Eco, i have everything faster and more Units, just a bit less save and not playable on open Maps. Its basicly adapted to the Mapadvantage Shakuras has.
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With you relying on the zerg not reacting correctly, it sounds to me a bit gimicky, imho. As a player maining zerg, and fiddling around with strictly protoss these days: this seems easy to deal with, just by dropping a roach warren. With how slow zealots are, being active with our lings should still give enough information as to when you need to react (ie. build roache(s)). Also, with the trend zerg has been following; from what sounds like a fairly delayed warp gate tech and the lack of any easy transition, this build sounds like it would make dealing with mutas that much more difficult and would leave you turtling 2 base for a long time. Essentially, it sounds like you're going to be relying on a delayed 2 base push anyways; it's just you have a variation of harass at the beginning.
That aside, at first I thought it was super super gimicky; but I'm happy to see the thing about commitment in there. In terms of refinement, you're probably better off with Kiwikaki's chrono'd 2 gate zealot push. Theorycrafting aside, It's really nice to see Protoss's really thinking about strat! Keep on keeping on, I'll maybe try this out and see for myself. :D
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On December 11 2011 22:22 decaf wrote: Very well written guide. One question though. What if someone goes for a juylzerg ling bling all in july used to do vs terrans a lot? That one comes around the 8 minute mark with about 15 banelings and 40 lings. Cannons aren't enough to deal with that. you'll need forcefields (many of em) or you'll have a ton of zerglings in your main.
Busting a solid (big buildings) Wallin with 2+ Cannons behind and ~6 Zeals in front with Blings is pretty tough. Its possible but spidersenses are working pretty hard if I see massling.
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On December 11 2011 22:29 mTwRINE wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 22:21 listal wrote: this looks interesting for some maps, but i'm not sure i'd take it over Kiwi's 2-gate style even on shakuras plateau. if your goal is to get the zerg player to be in the dark on how much he needs to commit to defend against your opening, and a secondary goal to that is to see what the zerg player is doing, why don't 2 gateways suffice? your tech will come out sooner, and you end up in the same situation that this build places you in. Busting a solid (big buildings) Wallin with 2+ Cannons behind and ~6 Zeals in front with Blings is pretty tough. Its possible but spidersenses are working pretty hard if I see massling. I'd have to play vs it to try it out but I think it's pretty much the hardcounter to your build. If it really works you could change your building placement a little bit to create an emergency wall in or something like that, since you won't have any FFs.
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Dies to :
1) 2 base muta 2) Roach ling all in 3) Fast roach burrow
User was warned for this post
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On December 11 2011 22:33 decaf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 22:29 mTwRINE wrote:On December 11 2011 22:21 listal wrote: this looks interesting for some maps, but i'm not sure i'd take it over Kiwi's 2-gate style even on shakuras plateau. if your goal is to get the zerg player to be in the dark on how much he needs to commit to defend against your opening, and a secondary goal to that is to see what the zerg player is doing, why don't 2 gateways suffice? your tech will come out sooner, and you end up in the same situation that this build places you in. Busting a solid (big buildings) Wallin with 2+ Cannons behind and ~6 Zeals in front with Blings is pretty tough. Its possible but spidersenses are working pretty hard if I see massling. I'd have to play vs it to try it out but I think it's pretty much the hardcounter to your build. If it really works you could change your building placement a little bit to create an emergency wall in or something like that, since you won't have any FFs.
I Quoted the wrong post first, but as you can even see on my Screenshot (Roachbustthing) I already killed an Overlord with my 2 Sentrys at my Main Ecoline. So (8 min) Banelingbust should be no problem.
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On December 11 2011 22:29 mTwRINE wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 22:21 listal wrote: this looks interesting for some maps, but i'm not sure i'd take it over Kiwi's 2-gate style even on shakuras plateau. if your goal is to get the zerg player to be in the dark on how much he needs to commit to defend against your opening, and a secondary goal to that is to see what the zerg player is doing, why don't 2 gateways suffice? your tech will come out sooner, and you end up in the same situation that this build places you in. Busting a solid (big buildings) Wallin with 2+ Cannons behind and ~6 Zeals in front with Blings is pretty tough. Its possible but spidersenses are working pretty hard if I see massling.
a bling bust isn't really what i asked about. i'm asking for some points on why you think people would want to use your build instead of Kiwi's. i see similar benefits, but Kiwi's build techs more quickly and invests less into zealots while getting what appears to be the same benefits out of a very similar situation. i think a comparison would be good, since i'm genuinely curious and think it's necessary given what you propose as benefits with your opening
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On December 11 2011 22:37 RaKooNs wrote: Dies to :
1) 2 base muta 2) Roach ling all in 3) Fast roach burrow
1) Well thats kinda cheesy and I have 3 Gateways minimum and ~10Min Mutatiming has WP also ready. 2) Probably not. As said roachpressure/allin is played most of the games and you probably didnt even read my post since i make it very clear, that I always prepare for roachpressure. 3) nice troll
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On December 11 2011 22:37 RaKooNs wrote: Dies to :
1) 2 base muta 2) Roach ling all in 3) Fast roach burrow
1 - the typical zerg response to any sort of FE build in ZvP is a double expanse, not 2-base mutas. a 2-base muta build is a very risky choice for dealing with FE. it's also something you commit to relatively early in the game if your goal is to have mutas at a reasonable timeframe.
2 - i think the OP makes it clear that roach/ling all ins aren't terribly effective against this style. he has replays of it.
3 - i'm not sure how roaches with burrow are effective against this. can you please elaborate?
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On December 11 2011 22:39 listal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 22:29 mTwRINE wrote:On December 11 2011 22:21 listal wrote: this looks interesting for some maps, but i'm not sure i'd take it over Kiwi's 2-gate style even on shakuras plateau. if your goal is to get the zerg player to be in the dark on how much he needs to commit to defend against your opening, and a secondary goal to that is to see what the zerg player is doing, why don't 2 gateways suffice? your tech will come out sooner, and you end up in the same situation that this build places you in. Busting a solid (big buildings) Wallin with 2+ Cannons behind and ~6 Zeals in front with Blings is pretty tough. Its possible but spidersenses are working pretty hard if I see massling. a bling bust isn't really what i asked about. i'm asking for some points on why you think people would want to use your build instead of Kiwi's. i see similar benefits, but Kiwi's build techs more quickly and invests less into zealots while getting what appears to be the same benefits out of a very similar situation. i think a comparison would be good, since i'm genuinely curious and think it's necessary given what you propose as benefits with your opening
Sorry, my misquote confused me .
Kiwi has: Same Eco Later Zealots Less Zealots More defense (Forge+Cannon for/while Gateways)
This build has: Same Eco Faster Zealots More Zealots Less Defense (because not needed on Shakuras)
His only advantage is that his BO is playable on basicly every map but his timewindow for pressure/really hurting the Zerg without commiting, when Zerg is low on production is alot smaller/less effective.
I also said I hardly ever make more than 6 Zealots and Kiwi Chronoboosts 6 Zeals every time, while I only Chronoboost 2 or 3 times so I invest less in the same and alot faster amount of Zealots. I am able to do that, because I completely skip early game defense and instead use offensive/pressure to transition into tech+defense soon after.
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On December 11 2011 22:44 mTwRINE wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 22:39 listal wrote:On December 11 2011 22:29 mTwRINE wrote:On December 11 2011 22:21 listal wrote: this looks interesting for some maps, but i'm not sure i'd take it over Kiwi's 2-gate style even on shakuras plateau. if your goal is to get the zerg player to be in the dark on how much he needs to commit to defend against your opening, and a secondary goal to that is to see what the zerg player is doing, why don't 2 gateways suffice? your tech will come out sooner, and you end up in the same situation that this build places you in. Busting a solid (big buildings) Wallin with 2+ Cannons behind and ~6 Zeals in front with Blings is pretty tough. Its possible but spidersenses are working pretty hard if I see massling. a bling bust isn't really what i asked about. i'm asking for some points on why you think people would want to use your build instead of Kiwi's. i see similar benefits, but Kiwi's build techs more quickly and invests less into zealots while getting what appears to be the same benefits out of a very similar situation. i think a comparison would be good, since i'm genuinely curious and think it's necessary given what you propose as benefits with your opening Sorry, my misquote confused me . Kiwi has: Same Eco Later Zealots Less Zealots More defense (Forge+Cannon for/while Gateways) This build has: Same Eco Faster Zealots More Zealots Less Defense (because not needed on Shakuras) His only advantage is that his BO is playable on basicly every map but his timewindow for pressure/really hurting the Zerg without commiting, when Zerg is low on production is alot smaller/less effective.
okay, so you're transferring the cannon defense to zealots. you only make more than one cannon if you see that you need them, and even the first cannon is delayed in favor of relying on zealots and your gateway block. i can definitely see where this would be good on a particular set of maps. i'm very interested to see how this would work out on maps with backdoor expos, like Calm Before the Storm
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If I see that wall I will go double gas and mass ling - bling. I want to baneling bust that wall so... damn... hard. I get shivers down my spine just looking at it.
I can see this working against an underprepared or 14-16 style zerg definitely. But against a decent hatch first opening reacting to your fast zealot pressure should come out ahead and in my case, i would totally baneling bust the crap out of you whether I lose or not. Granted you probably will be a lot safer with the sentries coming out, but they will be delayed as will the warp gate research.
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On December 11 2011 22:58 Chaosvuistje wrote: If I see that wall I will go double gas and mass ling - bling. I want to baneling bust that wall so... damn... hard. I get shivers down my spine just looking at it.
I can see this working against an underprepared or 14-16 style zerg definitely. But against a decent hatch first opening reacting to your fast zealot pressure should come out ahead and in my case, i would totally baneling bust the crap out of you whether I lose or not. Granted you probably will be a lot safer with the sentries coming out, but they will be delayed as will the warp gate research.
i think that hatch first is unreasonable to present as a counter, since it's rare that any honest zerg player hatches first on maps where FFE is common. it's a death sentence. also, i don't think that hatch-first is a reasonable counter to 3gate.
the OP also points out that this is very safe against bling busts, and it appears that shakuras plateau is the main map to execute this strategy on. sentries' force fields will keep you reasonably safe, and gateways' health and shield are also pretty beefy in their own right. while i'm sure that blings would have some success against this, i don't think it'd be consistent enough to call a ling/bling all-in an effective counter to this.
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I am sorry, i have not been able to see the replays but from what i understand your cybercore is really delayed. Would zerg not have completely free overlordvision in you main for a long time? I also think he should be able to scout your gateways pretty fast and have every chance to respond apropriatly
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