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[G] Belial's Comprehensive Guide to Beating 6 Pool!

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 All
  Belial88   United States. December 16 2011 18:15. Posts 5217Profile Blog # 
I've edited this guide to be much more shorter and clearer. If you want to check out a much more descriptive guide on the whys, read the old guide spoilered below. Hopefully, this guide will make it much clearer just what you need to do and be an easier read


[image loading] vs [image loading]


Hi. I'm a 1500+ Masters Zerg, who also wrote:


This is a new guide on how to beat all types of 6/7/8 Pools with Hatch First, as well as a few types of 10 Pools. The other guide was way too long, and too wordy. This is an update


6/7/8 Pool Drone All-in
+ Show Spoiler +
6 Pool with Mass Lings (with 0-2 Spines)
+ Show Spoiler +

10 Pool Baneling
+ Show Spoiler +
10 pool Speedling
+ Show Spoiler +
10 Pool Plain
+ Show Spoiler +


10 Pool with 8 of 12 Drones Pulled and 1-2 Spines
+ Show Spoiler +

Old Guide
Check this out for a much, much, much wordier and in-depth look on 6 pools
+ Show Spoiler +
Last edit: 2012-10-24 01:44:58
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Old Post

  Belial88   United States. December 16 2011 18:16. Posts 5217Profile Blog # 
How Many X does it take to Beat Y?
Good Question! Here's some math for you. No micro was used, except to make sure in larger engagements units 'stuck' in the back were moved well up around and front. Mineral walking would definitely improve the odds, or simple hold position micro done 2-3 times in a battle.

Drone vs Ling
1 Drone loses to 1 Ling. Duh right? Well, this is interesting...
2 Drones beat 1 Ling, with no losses (no micro either)
3 Drones beat 2 Lings, with 2 losses (it is possible that the 2 lings win with 1 hit left if positioning is super poor, like one drone runs in way ahead of others, but a 'clump' of 3 drones, or just a single micro pull-back, is enough)
4 Drones beat 2 Lings, with 1 loss (with just one pullback micro, no losses)
10 Drones beat 5 Lings, with 3 losses (micro or mineral walk can beat it with zero losses)
18 Drones beat 10 Lings with about 9 left
18 Drones beat 12 Lings with about 5 left
18 Drones lose to 14 Lings

vs Spine
11 Drones beat 1 Spine with 3 left
7 Lings beat 1 spine with 2 left (dont stream them in, have them clumped up)

vs Morphing Spine
3 Drones kill a morphing spine
3 Drones barely kill a morphing spine halfway done, will one 1 hit left
2 Drones can kill a morphing spine only if they get on it immediately - if it's more than 1/5th done, spine will win

1 Ling can stop a morphing spine - if it's more than 1/4th done, spine will win
2 Lings can stop a morphine spine - if it's more than 2/3rds done, spine will win (if you attack at 190/300, last ling and spine die same time!)

vs Rooting Spine
6 Lings can kill a spine rooting with 1 hit left (lings have to attack same time spine starts rooting)

8 Drones can kill a spine rooting with 4 left
7 Drones can kill a spine rooting with 3 left
6 Drones can't

vs Drone All-ins
18 Drones + 2 Lings crush 6 Drones + 10 Lings
18 Drones + 1 Lings loses

18 Drones + 4 Lings + 1 Rooting Spine beat 6 Drones + 10 Lings + 1 Rooted Spine
18 Drones + 3 Lings + 1 Rooting Spine lose to 6 Drones + 10 Lings + 1 Rooted Spine

18 Drones beat 10 Lings with about 9 left

Additional Info
A spine has 2 armor, a morphing spine doesn't

It takes 8 lings to surround a spine. It takes 7 drones to fully surround a spine

An uprooted spine does not lose health, even off creep

Can a mod edit the title to make "[G]Belial's Comprehensive Guide to Beat 6 Pool ZvZ". I didn't mean to hit post, I was hitting preview over and over, doing final edits

and why are the images broken on the replay files ><
Last edit: 2012-03-29 13:17:03
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Old Post

 
 mooseman1710   United States. December 16 2011 18:50. Posts 87
Profile # 
drones do far too much dps when microed correctly
Old Post

  Belial88   United States. December 16 2011 18:54. Posts 5217Profile Blog # 
Wow, I put so much effort and work and time into this guide. The first post it gets is hilarious.

Yes. I suppose they do do a lot of dps. It's not about micro though - micro actually lowers their dps. That's a big point (not the whole point, just a big one). Generally, the person with the smaller army (in this case, the 6 pooler) has to micro to make things works. The person with the bigger army, generally wants to engage in the open, and has to micro less.

Thus, a big drive to this guide was discovering how to beat 6 pools without using any micro at all. I actually went as far to find out the extreme least amount of micro necessary to play, and in most cases, you can just a-move in the situations above except when specific micro is necessary, as I explain in the guide.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Old Post

 
 mooseman1710   United States. December 16 2011 19:02. Posts 87
Profile # 
haha i didnt mean to belittle your efforts. i really appreciate your bosswalk seriously gonna bosswalk through some lings as soon as my exams are over
Old Post

 
 FinestHour   United States. December 16 2011 19:02. Posts 6767
Profile # 
Nice guide but you put way too much emphasis on finding strange names for very basic and very old techniques and then putting your name in front. Belial flower arrangement of death is just basic worker stacking rofl.
Last edit: 2011-12-16 19:03:46
thug life.
Old Post

 
 mooseman1710   United States. December 16 2011 19:04. Posts 87
Profile # 
yes micro lowers DPS, but if you are doing the flower arrangement, i dont think anyone can argue that that is micro >higher DPS than if you were to a move ur drones
Old Post

 
 Macpo   December 16 2011 19:11. Posts 453
Profile # 

"The Power of Belial’s Floral Arrangement of Death"...

ahah this is very cute... So Belialesque

"Courage consists, however, in agreeing to flee rather than live tranquilly and hypocritically in false refuges." G. Deleuze
Old Post

 
 C[h]ili   Germany. December 16 2011 19:20. Posts 84
Profile # 
So, you are the reason I actually signed up, after a long time of passive reading. Be proud

Thanks alot for the profound guide on how to stop 6-pool. The amount of effort you have put into this guide is really impressive.

Just want to mention a few things. First, and in case I understand you correctly, the Belia's flower of death is already known and suggested by the master himself. See



One issue I see with your argument is that you go 15 hatch in the assumption a 6 pool is incoming. Still, while hatch first certainly is common, it has other drawbacks. So I wonder whether you suggestions are helpful in a situation where you go, say, 14 pool? I think your guide might benefit from elaborating on this a bit. There might be an issue with investing 100 minerals in a spine in the opponent's base, because that might cut into the linge you are able to build at home.

Also, against drone-allin you suggest building linges from your main hatch. Do you think it is feasible to surround your eggs perfectly and hence denying you reinforcing your drone army with lings?

So, forgive my noobish babble. Your guide gave a very interesting read and is important to all zerg buddies around.

For the swarm.
Last edit: 2011-12-16 19:23:33
Old Post

 
 blackodd   Sweden. December 16 2011 19:36. Posts 451
Profile # 

On December 16 2011 19:20 C[h]ili wrote:
So, you are the reason I actually signed up, after a long time of passive reading. Be proud




Same for me.. I never knew flowers could be so deadly yet beautiful.
This guide is important because 6/7pool has always been a strange opening, some people see it as autolose, some as autowin. It's time we dispel the mystery around this retarded all-in.

The spine and drone transfer to his base was fucking brilliant
Last edit: 2011-12-16 19:41:49
For I am the Queen of Blades. And none shall ever dispute my rule, again...
Old Post

 
 HwangjaeTerran   Finland. December 16 2011 19:36. Posts 4968
Profile Blog # 
Is this inspired by Boris Kakhukakov ?
“Work is against human nature. The proof is that it makes us tired.” Michel Tournier
Old Post

  Belial88   United States. December 16 2011 19:39. Posts 5217Profile Blog # 

Nice guide but you put way too much emphasis on finding strange names for very basic and very old techniques and then putting your name in front. Belial flower arrangement of death is just basic worker stacking rofl.


2. or 3 I guess, if you include the Belial's Soulcrusher 7 Pool build. I don't. But none of those were ever done before, I'm pretty confident to say, although it's possible to argue Belial's Floral Arrangement of Death has been done before (bad habit had a vod about it, but no name).


yes micro lowers DPS, but if you are doing the flower arrangement, i dont think anyone can argue that that is micro >higher DPS than if you were to a move ur drones


I'm a little confused on what you are saying here, but technically it lowers your dps than if you were to a-move, but the virtue is how it keeps your drones alive (just like mutalisk stacking in BW), and how it forces the opponent to fight in a sort of 'choke', and how it allows you to essentially focus fire 18 drones onto a single unit when only maybe 5 could even engage in a legit surround.


One issue I see with your argument is that you go 15 hatch in the assumption a 6 pool is incoming. Still, while hatch first certainly is common, it has other drawbacks. So I wonder whether you suggestions are helpful in a situation where you go, say, 14 pool? I think your guide might benefit from elaborating on this a bit. There might be an issue with investing 100 minerals in a spine in the opponent's base, because that might cut into the linge you are able to build at home.


Welcome to TL, glad to see a new poster ^^

Well first off, I actually go 14 hatch, not 15 hatch, but that is besides this guide of which is better (14 hatch was proven to be better economically, no?). I don't go hatch first in the assumption a 6 pool is coming, I go hatch first knowing I will be safe against 6 pool.

Make sense?

Okay, let me put it this way - you have to cancel the hatch first against 6 pool. While even wth a hatch cancel you will still win, you will be even more ahead if you just not make that hatch at all. So if, for some reason, like close air spawn metalopolis, or my opponent is a predictable person, and I know a 6 pool is incoming before 14 supply, I will simply just make the pool and not make the hatch.

As for going 14 pool over hatch first, I will discuss that in a future ZvZ guide. But basically, you should be going hatch first 100% of the time on ladder. The only time you should be doing 10 pools or 14 pools is in a tournament or Best Of Series or against a friend, when metagaming/mind-gaming each other becomes a factor.

On ladder, the odds are better to just hatch first every game, and take your losses against anyone who 10 pools (they are losing way more than winning with such a niche build anyways). But if you are playing against a particular person over and over, or just a friend, then yea, things liek hatch first vs 10 pool vs 14 pool become an issue. That's the only time I'd recommend going 14 pool, when you think they are going to 10 pool you.

But that's totally besides this guide. Mind games are completely outside this guide. Like, this guide is about solid play. I can't say, "You should 10 pool, because it always beats hatch first, even though it loses to the very common 14 pool". The factors about 'mind games' are completely different. Like I'd say if you see a single gas on protoss, it means 4 gate, but they could also take their other gas and just not mine it, to fake you out - that's metagaming, something sort of beyond.

Anyways, I'd contend that 14 pool no gas is a better 'pool first' build since it would be safe against early pools and better against 14/14, like go 14 pool maybe 18ish gas for defensive banes... but whatever.


There might be an issue with investing 100 minerals in a spine in the opponent's base, because that might cut into the linge you are able to build at home.


A hatch cancel is 225 minerals. You also are mining until the last moment. You should easily have 300 minerals when you finally have to stop mining.

In theorycraft, you could make an extractor as a last building instead of a spine, but personally, I have never made it work without a spine, and even theorycraft wise, it's much harder than building a spine. You should always have excess minerals anyways, so why not make a spine instead of an extractor, it's only 75 more minerals and you should have way more than an extra 75 minerals.

You don't really need that many lings. 3 x 50 = 150 + spine = 250 minerals. Just the hatch cancel will give you enough for 3 sets of lings and a spine.

18 drones + 6 lings >>>> 6 drones + 10 lings. Like >>>>>>>> more.


Also, against drone-allin you suggest building linges from your main hatch. Do you think it is feasible to surround your eggs perfectly and hence denying you reinforcing your drone army with lings?



I suppose it's 'possible' but I've never seen it done perfectly. If it's really a problem, like you see he has a tight surround on your eggs, just make drones instead of lings, and they will mineral walk through. 20 drones is better than 18 drones if he is denying lings from hatching. If it is really that bad in the game, you can just camp the ramp. Lings can't mineral walk and he only has 6 drones at most, so if you camp the ramp, you can do a perfect mineral slide and just fuck him up. 20 drones will beat 10 lings + 6 drones when you mineral slide on a ramp.

But generally, you will be able to escape enough lings. Just watch your eggs, and set the rally so the lings go through where it's sort of 'open'.

That's also why you have an overlord watching them, and you should count his numbers when he's attacking your buildings. You can literally just count every single drone, and sort of do the math yourself ... "okay I have X drones and Y lings, he has X1 drones and Y1 lings, so I know I will win/lose an engagement right now". In this sort of base trade scenario, you sort of are just sitting there attacking his base, or sitting, or whatever, and his army size won't be that big anyways, so it won't be hard to count his exact numbers to figure things out, and you can run away to regen life (generally a base trade to army trade scenario has enough time to regen life anyways).
Last edit: 2011-12-16 19:43:13
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Old Post

 
 fezvez   France. December 16 2011 19:58. Posts 980
Profile Blog # 
Yay!

Finally! I deeply appreciate the work you made here (and I somewhat remembered your name from somewhere else, you must have made another good guide...) so thanks to you OP!
 
Old Post

 
 neoghaleon55   United States. December 16 2011 20:19. Posts 6198
Profile Blog # 
welcome back belial.
It's nice to see such effort on your return.
I'll definitely check your replays...my zvz needs work.
moo...for DRG
Old Post

 
 chestnutcc   India. December 16 2011 20:21. Posts 429
Profile # 
In the infinite ling replay, your opponent forgets to cancel the extractors when going the double extractor trick. Not a zerg player, but always glad for these micro tips! While the floral arrangement is well, a flowery name for defensive drone stacking, the BossWalk is v nice variation to know, do you think it has applications in fending off cannon cheese?
Old Post

  Belial88   United States. December 16 2011 20:36. Posts 5217Profile Blog # 
^ Yes, he did make that mistake. It didn't really matter though - by the time an early pooler would make an overlord, the game has already been decided (either the rush has been held off, or the defender is dead).

I'd be more than willing to remake the replay with a Masters Zerg who can drone pair though. But as you see in the replay, my spine was already making. Any more lings would not have arrived before the spine finished.

No I do not think the BossWalk has much application outside of 6 pools with spines. You can't really surround and trap a building, since they aren't running anywhere. The BossWalk works because it's sort of a mineral walk - in an a-move you'd lose, but with a mineral walk, you'd get a perfect surround instantly and win. It forces the opponent to back off, which allows you to attack the spine since they momentarily cannot defend it.

I suppose some sort of Zealot+Cannon rush maybe? But a Zealot+Cannon rush would come so late that you'd deal with it using units and static D, not drones. The Floral Arrangement of Death does not have much application elsewhere either, as your micro would be better spent on sending over your army or something - despite being very easy to pull off, it's near impossible to do anything else but a task or two. I suppose if a ling run-by occured, you could do it to 'save' the drones, and just quickly a-move your army over, and then do it to keep your drones safe until your forces arrived. I suppose you would save more than mineral walking the drones away. But your multi-tasking becomes limited with the Floral Arrangement of Death, so you may be better just mineral walking the drones away, send your army over to deal with it, and then, you know, continue on with macro and drops and whatnot.
Last edit: 2011-12-16 20:40:11
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Old Post

 
 barrykp   Ireland. December 16 2011 20:40. Posts 157
Profile # 
Your advice for 14/14 is to start going hatch first? I don't even hatch first in ZvT; I haven't a clue how to do it :s
Lecture me some more on how to play please; I need help.
Old Post

  Belial88   United States. December 16 2011 20:46. Posts 5217Profile Blog # 
^Yes, I lost a lot of games before I started winning too. Now, being comfortable going hatch first, I believe I win much more because of it. A lot more. Definitely enough to push a highly ranked diamond into masters, like it did for me.

Of course, you can stick to 14/14 and just generally improve and still rank up. It's just a very concrete, definitive way, to improve your game. It's not like, say "oh just macro better" or "just multitask better" - learning how to simply hatch first, is a clear-cut way (just like learning how to stop all types of 6 pool) to improve your play.

I am going to be putting up a ZvZ guide, but basically, I go 14h/15p/14g, get banelings immediately when pool pops, get 4 banes, defend with banes + spine until opponent expands (and if he doesn't expand, just make only lings and add a second spine and just make only units and more banes and spines), make about 6-8 banes and then basically make only drones until he shows signs of aggression. 14/14 ling/bane can be hard to deal with at first, so basically you should just practice going hatch first vs 14/14 ling bane all-in, as it's quite common as a response, but you should always beat it once you figure yourself out. Just spend an hour doing it.

As for ZvT... you should always hatch first in ZvT, I don't know why you wouldn't do that. Terran has absolutely no way to stop a hatch first, they don't send super early scouts like Protoss that can worker-block the spot, and it's actually safer to hatch first against 2 rax or proxy rax, because you need the creep and larva ASAP, as a queen inject won't come in time, and you need a queen to pop at the natural, as walking one down won't arrive in time, and you need a spine planted, or else SCV all-ins will kill you. If you go, say, 14/14 against an aggressive 2 rax, they can just bunker block you (particularly on nasty ladder maps, damnit why no neutral depot) or bunker contain you and macro up themselves, and make 2 bunkers at home or marauders to deal with the inevitable 1 base roach all-in.

Anyways, I'd rather avoid talking about hatch first and other match-ups. The point of this guide is beating 6 pool - if you are uncomfortable with hatch first, then take this guide as how to beat 6 pool with your normal 14/14 build. The point of hatch first on steppes was essentially to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that you can beat 6 pool with any zerg build, so if you can do it on steppes with hatch first, just take that as how to beat 6 pools on ladder maps when you go pool first. The answer is the same if you go pool first, just more 'lax' - you can potentially just make lings and be okay, as they will be out early enough, or you can just do the 'answers' provided and be happy you'll get it done earlier
Last edit: 2011-12-16 20:49:57
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Old Post

 
 chestnutcc   India. December 16 2011 20:47. Posts 429
Profile # 
Ahh, okay I misunderstood the BossWalk, thinking it was used to take down morphing buildings like a drone drill. Just an offhand note, I usually find my click speed faster when left clicking rather than right clicking, so for me, executing the defensive drone stack by g-click rather than right click would work faster. Also synergizes with a-click better I think.
Old Post

 
 HaIf   Canada. December 16 2011 20:48. Posts 233
Profile # 
Pretty great guide, lots of useful information!

I'm really curious to see a replay where you drop a 0:37 pool, as the best I've been able to get after like half an hour is 0:41 and I thought I did everything perfectly!
life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery
Old Post

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