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Anything designed to exploit weak people is wrong. Which is why there's laws against selling crack. Which is why McDonalds was forced to remove additives that addicted people to it's food. Every company looks for that angle to addict people to its product. When people are genetically prone to addiction in the first place, someone exploiting that addiction is guilty of harming another individual directly for money.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0J9BDANo0iM Youtube link for the ones who couldn't load the one on the site The guy doing the documentary is a noob... thats all i can say His argument is that companies are trying to make game last longer... the fuck !? he shouldn't be talking about video games if he plays on casual... simple and easy. Skyrim, DAO , DA2 ,ME , ME2 , TW , TW2 ,TES:O... all of them were to easy and had not "real" difficulty for bosses, same with wow were it gets to suck atm since its to easy -_- This are the kind of guys that want "Mario games" to be every game. Is it truth in what they say with games like farmvile or Wow? maybe it is maybe its not, it has come to the point that no true gamers ( or very few of them ) play mmo's without a salary/sponsorship and farmvile ( and farmvile like game ) was never a real video game. The point is that i will believe it when the documentary is done by a psychologist that doesn't shake her whole body every 2 secs and a guy who is a respected/good gamer that doesn't talk BS and tries to cover it up in shiny words to look like he knows what he talking about... thats all.
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United Arab Emirates5090 Posts
Where would you draw the line then? By that definition marketing and advertising is unethical because you are selling products that are not essential for survival.
Women and shopping - how the fuck does it work?
I'm sorry but it just seems like more run of the mill "adults vs video games" rubbish. There are no physical addictions involved except for the release of dopamine and serotonin. In that same sense men are addicted to women because men do stupid shit and shell out truckloads of cash to have sex with women.
If you play an mmorpg to the point where your life is severely affected in a negative way then sorry that's just your lack of discipline. Any computer game where a bot could be switched in for the human player to grind gold, levels, armor, weapons etc is a pretty boring game to me.
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okay so in other words make games that have no kind me reward system people dont get addicted? that's just stupid. what would be the point of it then?
I've been gaming for years, i played morrowwind for days on end, i played wow for a few weeks and tons of other games too. when i wanted to stop i stopped. anyone who gets addicted has no self control, nothing more. Im sorry but i dont agree with half the things said in that video
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The principle has been there all along. Only specialist are starting to understand it and use it better
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The documenter has a point. There are games out there which do not benefit you in any shape way or form. And that is fine, except when those same games aren't fun, when they suck you in and leave you with no sense of closure. I really despise fb games and mmos and their creators.
It is also important to remember though, that some games have great capacity to help you in real life. Left4Dead taught me teamwork Halflife2 taught me that doing some simple puzzles involving spatial thinking can help when your stressed out Age of Empires got me interested in Ancient History Medieval Total War got me interested in Medieval history SC and BW taught me resource management.
And SC2 taught me how to make okay-ish decisions even when I have limited information and feel like breaking things.
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People should have the right to do what they want to themselves as long as it doesn't bring direct harm to others. Protecting people from themselves will never work. Banning drug usage, forcing restaurants to serve healthier food, and restricting game design because some people get addicted... it is a never-ending cycle that will never work. People will do what they want to themselves. The government should not be responsible for protecting me from myself. They should protect me other from others. If I wanted to shoot meth that I make in my bedroom all day, I should be allowed to.
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There are addictive personalities which are prone to be addicted to things. However gaming itself is hardly any more addictive than Lincoln Logs.
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On December 19 2011 15:21 Aterons_toss wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0J9BDANo0iMYoutube link for the ones who couldn't load the one on the site The guy doing the documentary is a noob... thats all i can say His argument is that companies are trying to make game last longer... the fuck !? he shouldn't be talking about video games if he plays on casual... simple and easy. Skyrim, DAO , DA2 ,ME , ME2 , TW , TW2 ,TES:O... all of them were to easy and had not "real" difficulty for bosses, same with wow were it gets to suck atm since its to easy -_- This are the kind of guys that want "Mario games" to be every game. Is it truth in what they say with games like farmvile or Wow? maybe it is maybe its not, it has come to the point that no true gamers ( or very few of them ) play mmo's without a salary/sponsorship and farmvile ( and farmvile like game ) was never a real video game. The point is that i will believe it when the documentary is done by a psychologist that doesn't shake her whole body every 2 secs and a guy who is a respected/good gamer that doesn't talk BS and tries to cover it up in shiny words to look like he knows what he talking about... thats all.
What a way to stick your head in the sand dude. What they say is nothing new, and I agree that some companies do not even think about ethics when designing a game. The problem lies with how games are designed, not on their difficulty level or whether it is for hardcore gamers. Their argument isn't that game designers are manipulating compulsions to stretch out games. This becomes a problem if you don't realize what they are doing and they're income is proportionate to the amount of time you spend playing (like wow subscriptions and farmville ads).
This video explains why I don't want to play MMO's, and everyone that plays those kind of games should at least watch it so they at least realize what the game makers are doing to them
On December 19 2011 15:41 pyrogenetix wrote: Where would you draw the line then? By that definition marketing and advertising is unethical because you are selling products that are not essential for survival.
Women and shopping - how the fuck does it work?
I'm sorry but it just seems like more run of the mill "adults vs video games" rubbish. There are no physical addictions involved except for the release of dopamine and serotonin. In that same sense men are addicted to women because men do stupid shit and shell out truckloads of cash to have sex with women.
If you play an mmorpg to the point where your life is severely affected in a negative way then sorry that's just your lack of discipline. Any computer game where a bot could be switched in for the human player to grind gold, levels, armor, weapons etc is a pretty boring game to me.
If a woman employs techniques solely to get men to do stupid shit and give them money for as long as possible, then that is also unethical, and those kind of women are generally shunned by societies. And as the scandinavian guy in the video already stated, you don't know the situation someone is in, so making blanket statements about their discipline is rather short sighted. Ethics is not some weird concept, basically every discipline you can study in probably has at least a chapter in a book about ethics if not a whole course. The gaming industry is basically doing the same thing as the tobacco industry back in the day: making their product as addictive as possible. Personally, I don't like the way this is going since it results in ultimately boring games. The only fun thing about MMO's are raids due to the teamwork required (it becomes a social interaction thing which is fun to me) but you will first have to grind out 50 levels.
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On December 19 2011 15:18 Humanfails wrote: Anything designed to exploit weak people is wrong. Which is why there's laws against selling crack. Which is why McDonalds was forced to remove additives that addicted people to it's food. Every company looks for that angle to addict people to its product. When people are genetically prone to addiction in the first place, someone exploiting that addiction is guilty of harming another individual directly for money. I just want you to know that your analogy doesn't work. Crack and the additive McDonalds used are addictive because of the chemicals in them, games don't have that same property. If I were to start using crack for a week, I would most likely become addicted to it regardless of my personality. If I were to start playing a game like WoW for a year, I would likely not become addicted to it unless I have an addictive personality. Also, if a game company were to stop making games that "exploits" addictive personalities, than we wouldn't have any good multiplayer games.
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On December 19 2011 15:18 Humanfails wrote: Anything designed to exploit weak people is wrong. Which is why there's laws against selling crack. Which is why McDonalds was forced to remove additives that addicted people to it's food. Every company looks for that angle to addict people to its product. When people are genetically prone to addiction in the first place, someone exploiting that addiction is guilty of harming another individual directly for money.
mcdonalds? o.o didn't know
what kind of stuff? like chemicals?
also i said slightly twisted cus ppl are allowed to sell alcohol and drugs which addict u
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I think this sort of thing is different when it comes to mmos vs other games. Regular games, addictive stuff doesn't really matter... because you can pretty much stop and return where you left off at any time. Competitive multiplayer games, you don't lose anything by not playing for a while (except perhaps your own skill). Single player games, you can pick up where you left off.
With mmo's, though, they seem designed to force you to keep playing, because you'll miss out if you don't. Your raiding guild will make progress without you, and your gear won't be good enough to play with them anymore. Or your pvp gear will be outdated and you'll have to grind your way up from a huge disadvantage, not to mention few will want to play with someone undergeared for long. Of course the one magic solution is an expansion (more money!)
Raiding in particular is a lot worse than the pvp aspect of the game, though. Is it unethical? I don't think so. But there are certain things in WoW that I find unethical, mainly the "daily" quests. I never participated in those, recognizing what they really were, but I still know many that have to login to get those dailies done. It's just the nature of the game that it's addictive, I don't think they could design it any other way without taking away from what led to its success.
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On December 19 2011 15:41 pyrogenetix wrote: Where would you draw the line then? By that definition marketing and advertising is unethical because you are selling products that are not essential for survival.
Women and shopping - how the fuck does it work?
I'm sorry but it just seems like more run of the mill "adults vs video games" rubbish. There are no physical addictions involved except for the release of dopamine and serotonin. In that same sense men are addicted to women because men do stupid shit and shell out truckloads of cash to have sex with women.
If you play an mmorpg to the point where your life is severely affected in a negative way then sorry that's just your lack of discipline. Any computer game where a bot could be switched in for the human player to grind gold, levels, armor, weapons etc is a pretty boring game to me.
In my opinion advertising and mass-consumption is a problem, our products should be designed to long as possible and be easily recyclable.
We consume too much of the wrong stuff each day. If I was a governor, I would make sure that all junk foods are removed from advertising and the way the stores will be shelved will make it easier to access healthy food. No snacks near the cashouts and cigarettes etc. There is much room for improvement, and please let me say that I am against banning anything, just do not make people see it as something cool. Even packaging for such products might need to change in my opinion.
Anyways, we have known for long that games are made to be addicting, that's the idea of the rewards system in all of them, leveling etc.
Imagine if governments were smart and made addictive games which helped science in some way? Your quests are math puzzles and by unlocking little challenges which help scientist you level up etc. Would be awesome to find a way to include all people on the planet into making some useful. I am not proud of what I do, I am not proud of writting this text, life is precious and short, we should use it to better ourselves, our cultures and the lives of the next generation. I believe that there is so much stagnation right now, the UN should propose a control over population towards ALL governments and find a way to shift food towards poor countries in some way. I don't know why we suck so much and I don't even know why there are so many countries. My native language is not English and my culture is not dominant, however I would be okay if we all speak Chinese or English in a couple of centuries. Humanity and science/art above entertainment/economy.
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On December 19 2011 15:18 Humanfails wrote: Anything designed to exploit weak people is wrong.
Simple, elegant rule that I wholeheartedly agree with in general.
It is wrong to do this on purpose. Then again, so many things are wrong with the game development industry today and the ethics of people involved in the industry.
On December 19 2011 15:41 pyrogenetix wrote: I'm sorry but it just seems like more run of the mill "adults vs video games" rubbish.
No, this is a completely different issue and a different agenda. Hardcore gamers should be the first to rise against industry trends like this one.
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This is actually a more subtle problem than it appears. These psychological reward mechanisms are well understood from real research, and most games apply them (without malign intent) to some degree, which is not a problem. They're actually a foundation of good design in most cases. The Diablo series is a prime example of this. Loot lust is a -fun- mechanic, and it enhances an already well designed combat system to make the game lastingly entertaining. This is not a dangerous or 'addictive' experience.
The problem is when a game is designed around these psychological tricks explicitly. Most hardcore gamers which have tried to play FarmVille will have stopped after about 3 minutes. Why? because there is very little game in it. This game was explicitly designed to lure people in through its social aspects and spend money. There is a mmo (the name of it is escaping me right now, will edit if I find it) which actually just is a slot machine in the guise of a loot-based economy. You buy extraction devices, which cost real money, to look for rare materials which you can sell for real money if you strike it rich. These have chance based success and essentially degrade on each use. The veneer of a mmo world is there, but this is the core fiscal design of the game. You can't even actually know this before trying it, because the mechanics are so well hidden by the game.
Why is this bad? Two reasons. Most gamers, that is people that actually consider gaming their main hobby, hate these kinds of games. If they're completely and wildly successful, investment risk goes into making more of them instead of other games. If you can't see this happening to mmos, I don't know what to tell you. The other reason that this type of design is bad is that it becomes attributed to the core principles of video game design. Completely ignorant outsiders look in, see examples of these tricks taken to utterly extreme ends, and start associating the same tricks with games like Diablo. That is how you get sweeping, silly regulations to threaten the whole of gaming. That is how you cheapen the hobby, and make it easier for people to look down on you for being a part of it. I don't think that it will ultimately win out, but it's worth discussing.
tldr; Is 'unethical design' a massive threat to our childrenz?! No. Is it wrong? Yes.
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On December 19 2011 15:21 Aterons_toss wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0J9BDANo0iMYoutube link for the ones who couldn't load the one on the site The guy doing the documentary is a noob... thats all i can say His argument is that companies are trying to make game last longer... the fuck !? he shouldn't be talking about video games if he plays on casual... simple and easy. Skyrim, DAO , DA2 ,ME , ME2 , TW , TW2 ,TES:O... all of them were to easy and had not "real" difficulty for bosses, same with wow were it gets to suck atm since its to easy -_- This are the kind of guys that want "Mario games" to be every game. Is it truth in what they say with games like farmvile or Wow? maybe it is maybe its not, it has come to the point that no true gamers ( or very few of them ) play mmo's without a salary/sponsorship and farmvile ( and farmvile like game ) was never a real video game. The point is that i will believe it when the documentary is done by a psychologist that doesn't shake her whole body every 2 secs and a guy who is a respected/good gamer that doesn't talk BS and tries to cover it up in shiny words to look like he knows what he talking about... thats all.
Your argument of why what he says is incorrect is incredibly weak and mostly irreleveant. His argument is irrelevant because he's "casual"? And the psychologists argument is invalid because she's "moving her whole body every 2 seconds"?
Games are made for money. If playing for longer gives companiesmore money then of course they're going to try and make one play for as long as possible.
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On December 19 2011 15:18 Humanfails wrote: Anything designed to exploit weak people is wrong. Which is why there's laws against selling crack. Which is why McDonalds was forced to remove additives that addicted people to it's food. Every company looks for that angle to addict people to its product. When people are genetically prone to addiction in the first place, someone exploiting that addiction is guilty of harming another individual directly for money.
Most things aimed to be sold are produced in such a way to exploit people. Food is priced cheap to exploit the poor, food taste yummy to exploit people for their money, the list goes on and on. Your statement is way too wide to be taken seriously, or at least it seems.
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I'd definetly say my gaming addiction is driven by learning and competition.
In my life i've always paid close attention to new facts, often i'd be enthusiastic about something totally ordinary. Because to me it was a new, and new things drive my brain to create new combinations like a new piece of puzzle. Where can I put it? Where does it go?
When learning stops I grow bored. WoW did a good job keeping me in the loop for a good while. But the same tricks don't work in repetition.
The biggest proof of my gaming addiction was a Browser based game. I would pay attention to this game, even though I felt like I hate it. I played it, just to look and make sure I wasn't going to log in later and be upset over a missed opportunity. The nature of this game, was the something to lose one. Like farmville. Where not checking in, had risk related and often the risk was enough to bother me.
People talk about free will, but I want to share my point of view. I wanted to play this game. I think I have real problems controlling my impulses, it's really something i've been looking into for many years, and have not yet figured out.
I'm a smoker. If I had the choice to to flip the switch off on my impulses I would. Fortunetly as a gamer that kind of act is possible. You can delete your account.
But I can't avoid tabacco. I can't delete that. So there is a deep wound within me that can be exploited. I say this because I was exposed to smoke pre-natal, as a child, had my first puff before I was 13.
I'm 23 now. After years of learning about myself and paying attention to details.
If I could make a choice, white or black. To go back and erase all the damage susbtance abuse has done to my psyche. I would. So I agree that adult behavior and though process is an ethical issue.
Because children can be corrupted. To reverse the damage can take years, and for some it can't be fixed so easily.
We're all one species, one family. I for one pray to man kind. That my children won't endure the pain I have. My father had hoped for the same. But one man can't change the fundamental problem which he was also a victim.
The reason why exploitation of the mind is so mainstream is because that practice is profitable. The problem, is our family tolerates this kind of behavior. We allowed each other to exploit one another, for profit. For self gain, I pray some more to man kind that we can grow out of this.
But that dream is not a reality.
Thank you team liquid. For being a beacon of light on the internet.
@ everyone who posted threads on this forum. Thank you for reaching out.
We are the young brother of a dysfunctional family. I hope we can make a change. For the better of all our children and their children, so that we can learn from our parents to better our planet. For the survival of our species, there is no other purpose.
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