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| sksyen United States. January 02 2012 10:39. Posts 359 | Profile Blog # |
On January 02 2012 09:45 Ghostfoot wrote:
Guys, guys guys. Obviously no build is an autowin, the better you utilize it, the better you will perform however. It's not invincible, just a new way to play.
Thank you, I guess this is the point I was trying to get across... if you micro and macro well going into the 11-12 min mark, you have a high chance of winning the game. |
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| Andreas Norway. January 02 2012 10:49. Posts 214 | Profile Blog # |
On January 02 2012 10:39 sksyen wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 09:45 Ghostfoot wrote:
Guys, guys guys. Obviously no build is an autowin, the better you utilize it, the better you will perform however. It's not invincible, just a new way to play.
Thank you, I guess this is the point I was trying to get across... if you micro and macro well going into the 11-12 min mark, you have a high chance of winning the game.
You should probably write a bit about followups to the push in the OP if you really want to get this point across.Last edit: 2012-01-02 10:50:17 |
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| GleaM United States. January 02 2012 12:31. Posts 202 | Profile # |
Show some replays of you losing? Nice build but showing no losses is both a little self-promoting and biased. Nobody learns from games where you just roll people that don't respond properly.
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| panzzzzz United States. January 02 2012 12:43. Posts 109 | Profile # |
| shoulda posted this before we played our grudge match X_X |
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| Huitzi United States. January 02 2012 13:44. Posts 32 | Profile # |
| I used to do this build with cloak and then going 2 base, the thing that stopped me was when I played on the Korean server I got 1 based and the most popular, VR All in crushes this so bad, because it hits quite early, so I stopped using this. But on the American server, it is much more macro oriented so I see it working for a bit. |
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| xtruder Afghanistan. January 02 2012 13:47. Posts 131 | Profile # |
| hey everyone let's name all our builds with only numbers because it sounds cool. |
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| spbelky United States. January 02 2012 13:56. Posts 614 | Profile Blog # |
I'm a bit disappointed by the content in the OP. When I read [G] I normally expect a guide, not a quick build order opening followed by a single paragraph of explanation.
-edit-
I concede that the strat is good, and I've used it a few times, although I don't get 2 factories... doesn't make much sense to me.Last edit: 2012-01-02 14:04:36 |
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| K3Nyy United States. January 02 2012 14:29. Posts 1715 | Profile # |
On January 02 2012 08:11 Zarahtra wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 06:19 gogogadgetflow wrote:
On January 02 2012 06:07 Whalecore wrote:
On January 02 2012 05:37 Alejandrisha wrote:
if you scout 15 nex do you still expand or do you 1;1;1?
Wouldn't a 15 nex be the perfect way to beat a 1-1-1-build?
no.
Afaik 1 gate expo or nexus before gate was the best response to 111, so I'm a bit confused... About 15 nexus, so what you mean is that basically this wins any build that macros against it(assuming good micro from both)? + Show Spoiler +Guess this is the reason I've been seeing this/similar builds allover the place from pros TvP...
His build doesn't deviate when he scouts a 15 nexus. It's not like you have to commit to this build after scouting a nexus first, he can still throw down a few rax and marine/scv allin and win that way.
Edit: Looks like something MVP did vs MC and Oz, 2 base 1-1-1. (except this is 7-2-2 ><")Last edit: 2012-01-02 14:35:01 |
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| Alejandrisha United States. January 02 2012 14:44. Posts 5065 | Profile Blog # |
| instead of guessing what the op meant maybe the op could just say what he meant. |
| | probes get rich or die mining. | |
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| sksyen United States. January 02 2012 14:48. Posts 359 | Profile Blog # |
On January 02 2012 12:31 GleaM wrote:
Show some replays of you losing? Nice build but showing no losses is both a little self-promoting and biased. Nobody learns from games where you just roll people that don't respond properly.
Games I lose to are ones where I get 4gated, dt rushed, or voidray,essentially 1b play. not much to show there. The build is pretty straight forward if you still cant understand(which obviously you fail at) - you macro to where 2 bases are running with 16 scvs each and move out with continuous rally around the 11 min mark - its pretty 'allinish' if you want to call it that, either works or it doesnt like a 6gate. This is how every game has ended as long as you get to that point although there are certain spots where you can transition to 3rd. just react accordingly is what i always say. |
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| sksyen United States. January 02 2012 14:58. Posts 359 | Profile Blog # |
On January 02 2012 13:56 spbelky wrote:
I'm a bit disappointed by the content in the OP. When I read [G] I normally expect a guide, not a quick build order opening followed by a single paragraph of explanation.
-edit-
I concede that the strat is good, and I've used it a few times, although I don't get 2 factories... doesn't make much sense to me.
No one really cooks one recipe the same way. I would like to think that the TL community is smart enough to understand the gist of a strategy presented and to take it and to apply it in sync with their own playstyle. I dont give step by step guides, I give foundations for others to build on. |
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| Vansetsu United States. January 02 2012 17:47. Posts 1135 | Profile Blog # |
| Why so much criticism? If you can't understand the point of this build, maybe you should be looking at more basic strategy guides? Geez. |
| | Only by overcoming many obstacles does a river become - デイヴィ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ド |
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| Arcanefrost Belgium. January 02 2012 18:45. Posts 1119 | Profile Blog # |
It might be useful to actually write more than just the build order...
I have no idea how you will ever hold off early pushes, what your logic behind the build is etc...
Ofcourse it is good vs macro toss because while the toss plays safe and solid you play greedy and gimmicky. If i go triple nex and dont get punished ill be ahead too. Is this really worth taking bo loss vs any all-in? |
| | Valor is a poor substitute for numbers. |
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| Willzzz United Kingdom. January 02 2012 18:58. Posts 685 | Profile # |
I think his gameplan is to just say "gg" if toss does any 1 base all-in.
This entire build is a gamble that protoss will follow the standard macro build and not scout that he is extremely weak for much of the early game or that there is a 2 base all-in coming. |
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| teamamerica United States. January 02 2012 19:21. Posts 660 | Profile Blog # |
If you scout one base play, which it's pretty easy to do, just don't go with this? Once you hold the one base play it should be pretty much your game. Toss doesn't really hide 15 nex or 1gate FE, or at least they shouldn't be able to if you scout decently. But if he doesn't, you're already going 1rax fe by the time you scout it, and so you can just go up to 4rax and be in good shape (I just always get 4 vs one base play, 3 otherwise). Not to say Toss one base play sucks, but like any timing attack, if you scout it and react you should be ok. Get a turret by about 7 min if you have no idea what he's going, and I'd just spend your 2nd scan from your expo to get a better idea. This guide details early scouting and what to expect from it.
Thanks for the build Yen, miss your stream! I really like any build that has cloak banshees vs toss, because so many Toss I play skip obs for huge gateway timings or chargelot/archon with no robo. |
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| Chemist391 United States. January 02 2012 19:30. Posts 236 | Profile # |
| Have you used this against the HuK 20 nexus? That build will deliver 5 stalkers to your door at the same timing as a 4gate...your opener seems extremely skimpy on defense (as everyone has pointed out), but the 20-nex will allow the protoss to macro behind his 5 stalker poke, which will likely derail you pretty badly. |
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| Geiko France. January 02 2012 19:55. Posts 1606 | Profile Blog # |
I have to respect the OP on his skill, and on how effective the BO looks as a 2 base all-in. I think it would be great if more high level players shared their BOs on TL.
That being said, this is nowhere near the TL standards of what a guide should be. The OP is basically just a BO, a line saying when to attack, and replays.
To be constructive, I'd like to know for example :
-what counters it (appart from 1 base play)
-details in execution (scouting, any tweeks or adjustement based on what your opponent is doing)
-army positionning and micro during engagements (which units are important etc...)
-why 7-2-2 and not 6-2-1 or something else. What is the reasoning behind that particular building number.
Basically your OP is lacking content even though it seems like it's a fairly good 2 base all-in. And your are not helping when you answer "lol it's gg against 15 nexus" when a blue poster is asking you for details on the build. |
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| hersenen Belize. January 02 2012 20:28. Posts 176 | Profile # |
| sksyen you didn't answer my question of why siege tanks over thors? I'm really interested.. |
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| Willzzz United Kingdom. January 02 2012 20:59. Posts 685 | Profile # |
Beastyqt just tried this or something very similar on his stream and got stomped.
That's Europe for you  |
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| Blazinghand United States. January 02 2012 22:05. Posts 12828 | Profile Blog # |
So, from what I can tell, the build is something like this:
expand very aggressively with a single barracks and minimal defense, and hope you don't get attacked by a 1-basing protoss
then, double gas and rush banshee asap. The cloak banshee should hit fairly quickly and against a double forge protoss you should get in some decent damage.
From this point forwards, assert map control with your banshees and try to scout what he's doing. In most replays, Yen comes out of the banshee harass, 20-30 food ahead, due to his constant unit production, and the pretty large amount of damage unexpected banshees can do.
This build interests me and is a relative of a build I do (in some aspects), so I thought I'd break down a few replays. This is kind of what you need to do in the OP, btw man. Like, seriously. I literally had no idea what was going on until I'd watched several of your replays.
HongunPrime AKA FulltiltPokr: double forge disrupted.
+ Show Spoiler +In the game against FullTiltPokr, Yen's banshee flies into FTP's main at 8:57 with 85 energy. FTP has one observer halfway cross the map and another 20 seconds in the hole. He's got 1 out-of-position stalker and 1 sentry with which to try to put out this fire. Both players are at 65 food. Yen controls this banshee expertly, getting 4 probes and a sentry. As it exits the main, the other enters the nat. The second banshee kills 4 probes and cancels a cannon, taking no damage.
Rather crucially, this harass delays FTP's TC-- his forges are idle. He's burning robo time on more observers, and his chrono has built up to enormous levels on both nexii. Both of his forges idle for about a minute at 10:45 while his TC completes. He then gets supply blocked at 76 food. By the time he recovers from this supply block, he's now 30-40 food (depending on where in the production cycle you are) behind Yen. His 2/2 is on the way, but it has crucially been delayed by a minute due to the banshee harass. As Yen pushes out, FTP chronos his forges furiously, but he's sitting at 95 food against 141-- both of them at about the same worker count. As the fight begins at 13:00 it's already over, with FTP's 2/2 crucially 60 seconds away. The game is already over, with Yen's 40-50 food lead.
Vs. Incontrol: Dat harass
+ Show Spoiler +
IF we take a look at the game against Incontrol, a similar pattern emerges-- protoss sees a fast expand and the robo is delayed. Yen goes with the usual "delayed marines, quick double gas" FE, and comes in with a banshee. His banshee has a minor altercation with a stalker in the open field- Incontrol knows its coming. The stalker enes into his base at 8:53 and both players are at 62 food. Incontrol is up a few probes, but Yen has mules. Looks pretty normal. This time our banshero is at half strength, wounded by the battle with the stalker.
However, Incontrol has no obs on the way-- due to his delayed robo, he has to build a cannon in each mineral line. The banshee fearlessly picks off a probe and 3 sentries, bringing its kill count to 5 and its resource kill count to 325 minerals, 350 gas, making it a very successful banshee.
As the banshee lives Incontrol's base, Yen is up 7 food and is looking for a comfortable transition into the midgame. This story does not end here, however... at 10:05 banshee #2 enters Incontrol's main. The food count is 77-68 in favor of Yen.
Incontrol does little for about 15 seconds before commanding his units to attack the banshee. He sort of hangs out in his base during this time. I think he got distracted by something out-of-game, or he was busy doing whatever Incontrol does (usually gettin mad bank and doing his thang by running mad game, but that's just one man's opinion). Whatever the case is, the banshee exits his base at 10:49 with 7 probe kills and Yen is sitting solidly 23 food ahead on Incontrol-- 12 of which can be accounted for by banshee kills, and the remainder of which is probably due to lost income due to dead probes, incontrol's 2 cannons, and his additional tech investments.
Yen cuts workers at 46 and stewards his 23 food lead into a 34 food lead without any additional interaction between his army and incontrol's-- again likely due to the fact that he didn't lose any workers and had mules. The fight begins at 142 vs 108 food, with all of that advantage in army size.
So what does this mean?
Well Yen controls his units well, has solid macro, and does a good banshee harass build that hits at a time when double forge is vulnerable, especially if it's disrupted.
I think the real thing to look for here, the real nugget of wisdom, though, is the game vs Axlav:
Axlav makes his stand
I think the real sotry here is the game against Axlav. The most notable things about this game are:
1) Axlav goes Nexus First
2) this is on Antiga Shipyard, with an anti-spinward spawn, making banshee harass very favorable
3) Axlav wins the initial banshee harass.
Axlav uses a Zealot rather than a stalker as a front-checking unit, leaving him an extra stalker as a firefighter at home-- and when Yen's banshee shows up, he has to back off until cloak finishes, netting a few probe kills. He re-enters the protoss base at 8:50 with cloak. However, unlike every other protoss player, Axlav has a 2nd observer ready to go.
This is the only game in which Yen loses a harassing banshee.
Axlav's extra observer gets a full scout of the prod facs off, and axlav begins colossus production.
Here Yen uses a raven aggressively to PDD+banshee harass the main, picking off some probes and a stalker and losing nothing.
The real party starts at 12:30 when yen decides to manhandle down axlav's cannon with a force of 6 banshees and a raven, just as axlav's colossus attack was halfway between their bases. Without blink and his army hopelessly out of position, axlav can't save his robotics facility. After donating a few stalkers and a colossus, he also bleeds his robotics support bay, but not before picking off a few banshees.
This harass brutalizes Axlav's army. he's crucially down to 2 colossi and doesn't have the tech to rebuild them. Yen's thoughtful harass has given him the edge he needs for a frontal attack. at 14:00, he begins his assault and he's up 30 food. This time, though, he's not fighting the usual 1/1 gateway units with a few feedbacsk or archons-- Axlav has 2/2 and he has colossi. In another world, he'd have 3 colossi instead of 2-- bringing colossi to defend the banshees was an unforced error earlier.
Banshees are excellent against colossi, but Yen can't siege up as close as he'd like to due to the large threat range of the colossus. He makes an unfavorable trade in order to lower that colossus count, knowing Axlav still can't rebuild them. Still, he was forced to fight outside the umbrella of his tanks. He also takes some time to knck out the Artosis pylon supporting both of Axlav's Robos and one of his 6 gateways.
There are several minor skirmishes between blink stalkers and banshees.
Without active robos, and his charge far from complete (And 3/3 further still), Axlav is in a tight spot. He slaps down an additional (4th so far! LOL) robo and accepts the loss of his third. without a large colossus count to thwart him, Yen leapfrogs his tanks forward. Axlav engages to get the tanks away from his ramp, sniping Yen's spotters. Yen scans. Axlav slightly overextends, and at the end of the enagement is down 12 food at 15:50.
Yen tightens the noose and goes for a third. Axlav's 3/3 is almost done. He's having trouble securing a rally from his robo to his army, though, due to aggressive banshee control from Yen. He can't get up a critical colossus mass. AT 18:00 he decides to break out, and fails.
He blinks out of his base to Yen's third and snipes it. Yen sees his opportunity and sprints into Axlav's base. Axlav is forced to engage with half of his army, and at 21:00 with both players on 2 bases Yen ALMOST emerges as the victor, but careful control of 3/3 stalkers keeps axlav from leaving the game. Yen's large standing army eventually wins out in the remaining time, as well as the good old terran trick: flying an existing base to a new base :D
Overall, this game had errors on both sides, but showed what I think was a good response to this sort of play-- aggressively making colossi and using them to prevent the tanks from pushing forward quickly, as well as using blink stalkers to abuse the immobility of tanks and address the mobility of banshees. It also shows the durability of this two base all-in, and the dangers it faces against a fast-upgrading protoss who manages to hit 3/3.
Most of the time, it seems that Yen's opponents are simply unprepared for any sort of enormously fast. banshee play from a 2-basing terran. He does a good job of getting the fastest banshee imaginable on 2 base, and that certainly contributes, as well as his solid control. The follow-up push is very strong, but is on a ticking clock against an opponent who goes for colossi. Killing production facilities like he did against Axlav was effective, but I'd like to see how things would have gone if axlav had retained his first 3 robotics facilities.Last edit: 2012-01-02 22:08:54 |
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