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[G] Stalkerless PvZ

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 All
 
 kcdc   United States. January 05 2012 07:22. Posts 2311
Profile Blog # 
This guide will describe a strong 4-base turtle-into-deathball style of PvZ that completely forgoes stalkers, sentries and colossi. It was inspired by watching rsvp dominate Zerg after Zerg on his stream with a very similar build.

Theory:

Weapons upgraded carriers with archon, void ray, mothership and psi storm support are close to unbeatable for any Zerg composition, regardless of the Zerg's economy. Zerg's only units that can hit carriers (hydras, corruptors, mutas) are killed quickly by storms and archons, and with vortex to cut Zerg's army into halves, Protoss can win maxed fights essentially without losses.

This sort of deathball is rarely seen in PvZ because it's extremely gas-intensive, and common PvZ strategies that lean heavily on blink stalkers and/or colossi are unable to spare the gas for a templar+mass air transition until the super-late game when they've cut the map in half and are on 6+ bases. But if you cut the stalkers and colossi out, you can craft this deathball on 4 bases at roughly ~20 min gametime depending how the game has gone to that point.

When to use this strategy:

This build can be used against Zerg's standard double-expand response to a FFE. If Zerg is doing something funky, don't use this strategy.

This build is also relatively vulnerable in the early lair phase of the game between 11 and 15 minutes while you're trying to defend your third. Because of this, it is best used on maps with an easily defended third.

Build Skeleton:

-FFE
-+1 zealot and void ray timing
-tech storm
-11 minute third
-defend with immortals, storms, void rays and zealots
-take fourth
-build mothership and carriers

Execution:

Phase 1:

+ Show Spoiler +

Phase 2:

+ Show Spoiler +

Phase 3:

+ Show Spoiler +

Replays:

http://drop.sc/99207
http://drop.sc/99206
http://drop.sc/85237
http://drop.sc/84705
http://drop.sc/84706
http://drop.sc/84708
http://drop.sc/84709
http://drop.sc/84711
http://drop.sc/84712
http://drop.sc/84713 -- loss where I get overwhelmed during the early lair phase of the game.

Build inventor's thoughts:

This guide describes rsvp's build (with some small modifications I've found helpful), and he's way better than I am, so I think it makes sense to add his thoughts--and his higher level replays--to the OP.


On January 06 2012 08:10 coL.rsvp wrote:
Thanks for writing up this guide. I'm honored Here are my comments on some of the things discussed, I only briefly read through everything so let me know if I missed something that's still under debate.

Defending the 3rd: Yes this is the weakest point of this build, but it's far from impossible and if you play around a bit and get used to the timings it becomes easier. Pretty much it just revolves around having storm ready, otherwise you can't kill the hydras. Actually a lot of my games involve the the zerg killing my 3rd before I have enough to defend (i.e. storm 30 seconds from being done), then when storm finally finishes I can clean up his push, so effectively I'm trading my 3rd for his army. But this army composition is so strong that I can still win with that temporary eco disadvantage as long as I still have my core of tech units alive (voids/immortals/HTs/archons etc.).

2 stargate vs 1 stargate: Like kcdc mentioned, one thing I do differently from this guide is that I add a 2nd stargate instead of an earlier robo/immortals. It's personal preference really, and both should work, since the main goal of both is to counter roaches (I make extra voids to counter roaches, this guide goes for faster/more immortals to counter roaches). I like voids better because they are more mobile so I can also use them to deny the zerg's 4th and harass the main/expos.

Chrono'ed gateway vs chrono'ed warpgate tech: Both styles will get you a nice force of +1 zeals at the 8:00 mark. The difference is that if you chrono your gateway (or even go dual gateway after FFE), you get those zealots earlier which help with 2 things: breaking down your rocks to get ready to expand to your 3rd, and also perhaps to have even better early game scouting/pressure. If you chrono your warpgate tech, reinforcements to keep the pressure on the zerg's 3rd become much easier especially if he's not really ready to defend against the zealots. I recommend chronoing gateway for maps like tal darim and shattered where you need to break down rocks for your 3rd, and chronoing warpgate tech for all other maps.

HT vs colossus: Colossus is the more popular route and I've seen a lot of players go 2 stargate > 2 robo colo. Both styles are viable, I would just play around with both to see what you like better. Strategically, the main difference is that mass corruptor is a great counter to stargate > colo play, whereas mass corruptor will fail hard against stargate > HT play. That's another reason why I like to open 2 stargate - some zergs will see my mass air and respond with corruptors to both help counter my air and also to counter the colo that they are expecting to see me transition into. Then I win with HT. However, if you transition into colo it does become a bit easier to hold off those mid game roach/hydra attacks on your 3rd.

Best zerg response? Hydras are the worst answer possible, and it falls into exactly what the Protoss wants the zerg to do. While a roach/hydra mid-game attack on the protoss's 3rd is really strong, if you fail to win the game at that timing you've lost the game. The ratio of roach:hydra is also very difficult, since you basically just want just enough hydra to defend against voids, because too many = you lose to mass zeal because not enough roaches, and not enough = lose to voids/storm. Infestors are ok, but the protoss already has a lot of HT so it's not the best response. Corruptors are bad too because since not only do they don't exactly counter voids, they're expensive and you just lose the ground battle if you overmake corruptors.

Roach > muta is really good in my experience. Plain mass roach/ling while expanding is good too (think mondragon style roaches > voids) if you keep counter attacking and not letting the protoss get their 3rd, and then eventually you can switch to whatever and win because it's 4 or 5 base to 2. Queens are also great, if you get good creep spread then roach/queen/infestor is extremely powerful against this.


Some replays for you (may be 1-2 month old, haven't played too much recently/holidays)
http://drop.sc/63059
http://drop.sc/63060
http://drop.sc/58587
http://drop.sc/58588

Last edit: 2012-01-29 01:52:24
Old Post

  ToastieNL   Netherlands. January 05 2012 07:32. Posts 845Profile Blog # 
So, read it through, and I might be rediculous, but;
Mass Queen + Neural + Corruptor?
Hell, even MASS Neural, as supply permits, though that miught be gimmicky
Zerg lategame is imbalanced as shit. Also: "Protoss is really strong recently. Perhaps, it's time for there to be some changes for Terran." -MMA. Even MMA asks for buffs. Srsly Blizzard. Srsly.
Old Post

 
 kcdc   United States. January 05 2012 07:35. Posts 2311
Profile Blog # 
Neural doesn't have much range, and you can just focus fire any infestors that do manage to get it off.

I've never seen a Z go mass queen in late game. It doesn't sound like it would work, but I know hydras don't work at all and corruptors don't work well, so maybe they should try queens.
Old Post

 
 QTIP.   United States. January 05 2012 07:36. Posts 2086
Profile Blog # 
Woohoo fun build!
"Trash Micro but Win. Its Marin." - Min Chul
Old Post

  llKenZyll   United States. January 05 2012 07:43. Posts 851Profile Blog # 
Immortal/Storm/Void? Seems gas intensive. I bet Roach/Hydra would just roll this over. And later on when you get CARRIERS and Motherships? Yeah, Hydra/Mass infested terrans.
What are you going to do when i mass infested terrans under your carriers? Run? Then you lose your third. If you stay, you get fungaled as my infeseted terran DPS works away at your carriers.
Last edit: 2012-01-05 07:44:28
http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/nd6nd/tang_in_his_natural_habitat/
Old Post

 
 Trusty   New Zealand. January 05 2012 07:44. Posts 520
Profile # 

On January 05 2012 07:43 Lebzetu wrote:
Immortal/Storm/Void? Seems gas intensive. I bet Roach/Hydra would just roll this over.


read the guide? roach/hydra is what you want to face.
Old Post

 
 Slivered Skin   Canada. January 05 2012 07:44. Posts 347
Profile # 
I highly recommend this build. I've faced similar builds to it in the past, and it's incredibly powerful if you don't manage to bust it as the toss is taking his third.
Those most oft mated find love’s motive in a word: inebriated - Get well Violet!! And sC!! T_T
Old Post

 
 Umpteen   United Kingdom. January 05 2012 07:52. Posts 1239
Profile Blog # 
Finally! I was starting to feel kinda bad, always being in the driving seat in ZvP. It'll make a nice change to have to play reactively, with a deadline for ending the game before it becomes nigh unwinnable.



Nice guide. I look forward to getting crushed by it.
Faith is not a virtue. Its a reward, the payoff for having determined truth. Believing in that which cannot be proved either way is just masturbation.
Old Post

 
 Sajaki   Canada. January 05 2012 07:52. Posts 707
Profile # 

On January 05 2012 07:43 Lebzetu wrote:
Immortal/Storm/Void? Seems gas intensive. I bet Roach/Hydra would just roll this over. And later on when you get CARRIERS and Motherships? Yeah, Hydra/Mass infested terrans.
What are you going to do when i mass infested terrans under your carriers? Run? Then you lose your third. If you stay, you get fungaled as my infeseted terran DPS works away at your carriers.


I bet you didnt watch some replays :D
Old Post

 
 TangSC   Canada. January 05 2012 07:58. Posts 1614
Profile Blog # 
I think this style is interesting, but perhaps a bit vulnerable. How would you deal with the 3base aggressive roach/ling Stephano-style? I feel like with no sentries, you're pretty vulnerable to these types of counter-attacks. If they deny your 11minute third, you're in a bit of trouble and there aren't many ways to pressure zerg's 3rd/4th/5th without DTs, warp prism, or phoenix.
Coaching TangStarcraft.com | Team All-Inspiration.com | Stream Twitch.TV/TangSC
Old Post

 
 bertu   Brazil. January 05 2012 08:00. Posts 585
Profile # 
Thank you for the guide.

In this thread (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=288105), arcannefrost posts a similar BO also based on rsvp play, where he favors a second stargate instead of a robo (so more Void Rays instead of Immortals) and goes for fast charge tech and +2 attack (this also similar to what I`ve seen Kiwikaki doing). Any thoughts on pros and cons of both builds? Thanks!
Old Post

 
 SCPlato   United States. January 05 2012 08:05. Posts 239
Profile Blog # 
Doesn't Sage have a similar build except he uses mass phoenix? Either way cool build and nice guide. Always feel like Rsvp has a really strong PvZ.
All men are by nature equal, made all of the same earth by one Workman; and however we deceive ourselves, as dear unto God is the poor peasant as the mighty prince. -Plato
Old Post

 
 RuneZerg   Denmark. January 05 2012 08:27. Posts 87
Profile # 
mutalisks?¨

edit: missed the spoiler that dealt with mutas
Last edit: 2012-01-05 08:50:10
Old Post

 
 Geiko   France. January 05 2012 08:33. Posts 1603
Profile Blog # 

On January 05 2012 08:27 RuneZerg wrote:
mutalisks?


Reading skills ?

Great guide kcdc ! As many I'm still skeptical about that 11minute defense and whether or not you can take your third against good zergs, but I will go through the replays and try it out myself
geiko.813 (EU)
Old Post

 
 kcdc   United States. January 05 2012 08:39. Posts 2311
Profile Blog # 

On January 05 2012 08:00 DontGiveUp wrote:
Thank you for the guide.

In this thread (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=288105), arcannefrost posts a similar BO also based on rsvp play, where he favors a second stargate instead of a robo (so more Void Rays instead of Immortals) and goes for fast charge tech and +2 attack (this also similar to what I`ve seen Kiwikaki doing). Any thoughts on pros and cons of both builds? Thanks!


This build was inspired by watching the same rsvp style that arcanefrost posted about. rsvp actually does (did? I haven't caught his stream much lately) get a robo and immortals at about the same time as I do, but he also gets a second stargate and +2 weapsons.

I've decided to cut the 2nd stargate and delay upgrades beyond +1 for my timing attack.

I find the most vulnerable timing is from 12 and 14 minutes after you take your third but before you stabilize your templar/void/immortal composition. I don't see how a second stargate and extra voids helps you at this timing more than the same resources in storms, immortals and zealots would. The way I play it already tends to be pretty thin against a good roach/hydra timing, and adding other stuff cuts more into your army size.

Also, if you can get past that 12-14 minute timing in good shape, you almost always win, so I don't see a reason not to invest as much as you can into surviving that timing.

If rsvp or anyone else with experience with this style want to comment on this, I'd love to hear their thoughts. This is just how I play it and there might be other, better ways to do it.
Old Post

 
 kcdc   United States. January 05 2012 08:51. Posts 2311
Profile Blog # 

On January 05 2012 07:58 TangSC wrote:
I think this style is interesting, but perhaps a bit vulnerable. How would you deal with the 3base aggressive roach/ling Stephano-style? I feel like with no sentries, you're pretty vulnerable to these types of counter-attacks. If they deny your 11minute third, you're in a bit of trouble and there aren't many ways to pressure zerg's 3rd/4th/5th without DTs, warp prism, or phoenix.


The mobility of roach/ling can be annoying to deal with, but without anything that shoots up, void rays really shine. You also have +1 zealots, so lings aren't that great as long as P is careful about keeping his choke blocked off.

I think there's a replay in there where I'm forced to cancel my third a couple times and only get it started for good at 13 minutes, but in that replay, my 2-base economy kept pace with his 3-base economy because he went for units instead of drones after my zealot-void timing.

This build invests a lot in tech and economy and opens itself to attack at a point that Z's lair tech is strongest, so it takes a lot of practice to get your execution refined to the point that you can defend. But well-controlled immortal/void/storm can engage much larger roach/hydra forces off-creep, and if you're able to make it past this vulnerable stage, you've essentially won the game.

Also, you don't need to harass. Once this build has 75 probes on 4 bases, there's not much Z can do even if their economy is running full-blast.
Old Post

  Br3ezy   United States. January 05 2012 08:53. Posts 720Profile Blog # 
sorry buddy but you aren't goign to be able to expand at 11 minutes with those units. If zerg sees that, all he has to do is make lings...and well lings off of 3 bases, and most likely 4 hatcheries, is auto win. Throw in 4/6 gas to use for hydralisks and you are now screwed

the only reason it's rarely seen is because good zergs don't let you build up a deathball like that
Check out my guide to mechanics http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319876
Old Post

 
 kcdc   United States. January 05 2012 08:57. Posts 2311
Profile Blog # 

On January 05 2012 08:53 Br3ezy wrote:
sorry buddy but you aren't goign to be able to expand at 11 minutes with those units. If zerg sees that, all he has to do is make lings...and well lings off of 3 bases, and most likely 4 hatcheries, is auto win. Throw in 4/6 gas to use for hydralisks and you are now screwed

the only reason it's rarely seen is because good zergs don't let you build up a deathball like that


When did lings become good against +1 zealots and storms?
Old Post

  Br3ezy   United States. January 05 2012 08:59. Posts 720Profile Blog # 

On January 05 2012 08:57 kcdc wrote:

Show nested quote +



When did lings become good against +1 zealots and storms?

oh I didn't realize how much gas you actually had after getting stargate and voids and a robo bay with immortals. So you can get all these techs relatively faster than zerg can produce units?
Check out my guide to mechanics http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319876
Old Post

 
 kcdc   United States. January 05 2012 09:03. Posts 2311
Profile Blog # 

On January 05 2012 08:59 Br3ezy wrote:

Show nested quote +


oh I didn't realize how much gas you actually had after getting stargate and voids and a robo bay with immortals. So you can get all these techs relatively faster than zerg can produce units?


See guide. Storm finishes at 11 min if you do everything right. Which I'm sure doesn't happen in any of the replays, but I might have gotten close.
Old Post

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