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| Nibbler89 January 10 2012 08:07. Posts 656 | Profile Blog # |
Minor spoilers, You have been warned so if it really bothers you don't read this until after you have watched the games.
Code S 2012 Season 1 Ro32. set 2.
http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls1/vod/66754/?set=2&lang=
*updated with replay vs masters zerg.
So I was watching the VOD of Jjakji vs Sen in round 2 and was really impressed with this build, TvZ is one of my strongest MU's and before seeing this build would play a similar style to this loosely based on TSL Heart's build which I saw on his stream.
The style opts for a hellion stim timing skipping siege tank production in the early game. The unit comp is much less fragile than siege tank pushes at the same timing as well as often forcing roaches, delaying the Zerg's tech, and is very good at denying early thirds.
There are many hellion stim timing builds but JJakj'is is one of the most fluid and well timed I have seen with perfect transitions. Obviously I can't be 100% sure he came up with this build but I can't remember ever seeing this exact build before either.
I have also added some replay vs easy computer where I do the build with minimal mistake if you prefer to watch replay for builds.Jjakji makes a few minor mistake too in the VOD which I will cover. I will try to add some replay of me actually playing vs master zerg with this build as well later,I just wanted to show the build in simple replay without any major mistakes so people know what it should be like.
I will add my notes on parts of the build as well as execution during different stages of the game so I guess it will be sort of a general TvZ guide as well. If you see a * next to something on the build order it means it will reference to something in the execution spoiler for the same stage of the game. Many of the things I say will be discussed before / obvious to people so if you are only interested in the build you can just read the build. *also added build order all in one spoiler with minimal notes at bottom, above replays.
Without further ado here is the build which I painstakingly copied from the production tab of the VOD 
I'll break up the build into general stages:
Opening Stage: Reactor hellion Expand
+ Show Spoiler +10 depot
12rax(2 marines then reactor)
13gas
15 orbital
16 depot
18 factory
22cc(*Jjakji opts to build this in his main even though it's daybreak which I thought was weird considering he scouted hatch first and was going hellion but I guess he was just playing extra safe as this build can greedy / dangerous vs really early roach if you cc on low ground.)
2 hellions from reactor> constant production till 6 hellions.
27supply depot (right after 3rd/4th hellion)
Rax makes tech lab. (marine +stim , make 3 marines out of this rax for a total of 5 marine, then start making marauder)
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Transition from Opening to get mid game infrastructure up:
+ Show Spoiler +2nd Rax(next to factory with1st reactor)
OC when 2nd cc done.
When 5th/6th hellions pop out, lift up factory and have it build another reactor.
3rd rax next to factory building 2nd reactor.
40/46 supply depot(and throughout will no longer list supply depots)
Marauder production and continue until 4 marauders(Around this time your fifth marine should have been finished for a few seconds JJakji cuts rax production for a few seconds after fifth marine to get the 3rd rax then makes his first marauder)
OC finishes, calls down mule and floats to natural.
Get 2nd gas as factory is near finishing 2nd reactor. (@possibly a tiny bit earlier I will revisit this later, I'm not sure if it was mistake from Jjajki or not.)
Starport
*Put 3rd rax onto 2nd reactor made by factory and have factory start making a 3rd reactor for starport. (*Around this time JJakji also gets a bunker at his natural)
Combat Shields when stim is done.
Constant Marine marauder production. From 3 rax 1 techlab 2 reactor.
@Now this part of the build I would say is the part where it feels like its either not 100% fluid or JJajki may have made a mistake because when the starport with reactor is done, you won't have enough gas for even 1 medivac, as such JJakji just opted to start 1 medivac and the 2nd a bit after. It's not a huge deal but a slightly earlier gas along with maybe making only 3 marauders instead of 4 could possibly avoid this. It doesn't affect your timing much at all though so it's possible it just really doesn't matter. Just don't feel like you made a mistake if you can't make 2 medivacs right away. Just make them as you get the gas.
Cut Medivac production after these initial 2 medivacs until later(explained in Lategame)
Late Game Transition:
+ Show Spoiler +Ok so after the first two medivacs and first 4 marauders have popped you will now be switching completely to marine production no marauders (at least for now) and you will be cutting medivacs until later.
Put down a CC at 400 minerals as your push is moving out. (when its moving out you should only be making 5 marines and 2 scvs at a time so you get money for CC very fast.)
Tech lab on factory
x2 refinery at natural.
x2 engineering bay.
Siege tank + siege mode.
+1+1 (Jjakjis makes a slight mistake and gets his armory late in the VOD I don't think this was intentional considering his resources, so when +1+1 is at around 60% I think you should be getting an armory.)
CC 100%> move to third and make into PF,(you could Opt for orbital depending on map / how well you are doing.)
3 more Rax
Start Medivac production again.
Armory (at 60%)
JJakji eventually adds 2 reactors to his additional 3 rax. I think you could also opt for a tech lab on the 3rd one, for 6 rax with 2 tech lab 4 reactor. this way you are set up for marauder production again if he goes ultra. (or ghost if you like ghosts).
I would also add in another factory if your gas gets high but JJakji finishes the game with this production alone.
He also adds a couple turrets to deny muta but nothing really crazy just a really solid build leading to a strong terran late game.
What you should be doing during Opening stage:
+ Show Spoiler +*As with any reactor hellion opening it can be vulnerable to early roach pressure so when scouting with scv if you see obvious things like zerg not researching speed, staying on one base and getting gas, get a bunker at the top of your ramp and maybe opt for a marauder.
*Alternatively, if you see zerg get very late gas / pool you can opt to put cc on low ground for eco bonus.
With your hellions depending on your skill level I would do one of several things:
1)low skill level: just keep them at your base and alive for your eventual push and focus on your macro.
2) medium skill level: try and keep xel naga towers / deny early third/ occasionally deny creep tumor, click hellions back to base when you need to macro.
3) high skill level: poke and prod queens constantly, deny tumors, in general being very active without slipping on macro at home, delay roach advances by threatening run by with hellion if they try to move out.
The important things are not losing your hellions and not falling behind on macro. You don't have to kill any drones, you are on 2 base and he should be too as long as you keep hellions alive.
What you should be doing during Midgame:
+ Show Spoiler +*I'd like to note this transition time is probably the most dangerous time to get attacked, as you basically only have 5 marines and 6 hellions.You need to know if they are going to do some sort of roach attack so try and see it as early as possible. With good hellion map control a baneling bust shouldn't really be possible so just be ready with bunker with scv repair and holding off roach attacks isn't too bad, especially when you will soon be pumping 1 marauder and 4 marines off 3 rax.
While waiting for your marine marauder army to build up and medivacs to pop there isn't a whole lot to do, maintain as much map control as you can with your hellions while keeping them alive and just try and see how fast zerg is taking third. Make sure you are constantly building supply depots as a wall at your nat as well.
Most zergs will be taking their third around when your medivacs are popping and will have made roaches delaying their muta tech so when you push out at around 10 minutes you won't have to worry about getting harrassed at home.
Start moving out with your marine marauder army towards the zerg's third as your medivacs are finishing (they can fly and are faster so they will rally and make it there in time. along with hellions to try and kill lings on the attack path so they don't see it coming. (make sure to keep hellions alive, if you are bad at this just click the hellions and left click or move command them onto a marauder or something and just make your ctrl group marine marauder medivac to prevent them from running ahead and getting owned.)
If the zerg is playing strange and is doing something like 2 base muta or other 2 base build you can just defend and transition into the late game part of the build and kill him when he takes his incredibly late third.
Do your best to kill the zergs third or at least trade cost effectively then go back home. As this is not a 2 base all in build.
Playing in the Late game:
+ Show Spoiler +Late game is actually very difficult for zerg when terran is on 3 bases even if zerg has been able to hold his 3rd. This is because on many maps the fourth base is much more difficult to take than the 3rd, it's also the time when zerg has to inject the most to keep up with macro. Whereas the terran should be nearing maxed and won't need to add more production or supply depots or make additional scvs, allowing more time to be allocated to micro and multitask. It is also the time when drops are not only the most expendable because they aren't as large a portion of your army, but also when they are strongest due to upgrades. Building armor doesn't increase over time but marine with upgrades DPS does, meaning buildings get sniped much faster.
Now the most basic and annoying late game tactic terran can do is dropping the main while pushing the fourth. Since they will often be the two farthest bases from each other this makes it incredibly hard for the zerg to defend both while keeping up on injects and stopping you from getting a good siege set up. Add in drops to the third and it become's a really big headache especially when losing queens at this stage of the game is so crucial.
Take a fourth base when you can and keep up the pressure with drops and denying fourth / fifth. Be ready with marauder for ultra or viking for broodlord ( I personally think ghosts are overrated in TvZ but you could definitely add two ghost academy with this build if you wanted to)
Build Order minimal notes:
+ Show Spoiler +10 depot
12rax(2 marines then reactor)
13gas
15 orbital
16 depot
18 factory
22cc
2 hellions from reactor> constant production till 6 hellions.
27supply depot (right after 3rd/4th hellion)
Rax makes tech lab. (marine +stim , make 3 marines out of this rax for a total of 5 marine, then start making marauder)
2nd Rax(next to factory with1st reactor)
OC when 2nd cc done.
When 5th/6th hellions pop out, lift up factory and have it build another reactor.
3rd rax next to factory building 2nd reactor.
40/46 supply depot(and throughout will no longer list supply depots)
Marauder production and continue until 4 marauders
OC finishes, call down mule and floats to natural.
Get 2nd gas as factory is near finishing 2nd reactor.
Starport
*Put 3rd rax onto 2nd reactor made by factory and have factory start making a 3rd reactor for starport.
Bunker at nat
Combat Shields when stim is done.
Constant Marine marauder production. From 3 rax 1 techlab 2 reactor.
2 Medivac as you get the gas.
Cut medivac production
cut marauder production(marine instead)
3rd CC
Tech lab on factory
x2 refinery at natural.
x2 engineering bay.
Siege tank + siege mode.
+1+1
3 more rax
begin medivac production again
armory
2 reactor on new rax, +tech lab(optional)
Replays:
+ Show Spoiler +Atm these just showcase the general build vs easy computer with some minor supply block mistake occasionally. Got maxed at around 14:30-15mins. I'll try to add in real games vs master level zerg later. http://drop.sc/89192 (Game vs master zerg, I do build order correctly but macro slipped during engagements, also get greedy when I see he has only lings with my first push, which while practically was the best decision because I get so many drones, the wiser choice would have been to go deny his third then go back and defend while taking a fourth to secure the game. Various other mistakes but still properly shows the correct order to get buildings at least ^^). http://drop.sc/88844 http://drop.sc/88843
I hope you enjoyed my first guide and if you have any corrections / tips / things to add please let me know.Last edit: 2012-01-11 09:32:29 |
| | Of course it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. If it were easy, everybody would do it. Hard is what makes it great. |
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| upperbound United States. January 10 2012 08:22. Posts 492 | Profile # |
What are your thoughts on Blue Flame if the Zerg tries to just throw down a macro hatch and overwhelm the push with lings? Obviously, this is not really scoutable on all maps but it is a potential response.
I really like Tank play so I don't think this will be my main style, but it's a cool and easy opening that I could see myself using on occasion. Good job with the guide, thanks! |
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| Nibbler89 January 10 2012 08:28. Posts 656 | Profile Blog # |
On January 10 2012 08:22 upperbound wrote:
What are your thoughts on Blue Flame if the Zerg tries to just throw down a macro hatch and overwhelm the push with lings? Obviously, this is not really scoutable on all maps but it is a potential response.
I really like Tank play so I don't think this will be my main style, but it's a cool and easy opening that I could see myself using on occasion. Good job with the guide, thanks!
I think if i went to zergs third with marine marauder 2 medivacs and 6 hellions I'd lol and win if he only has lings, I don't think it's possible for 2-2 to be finished that fast which is the only way I could see it even having a chance of beating the push, assuming he also got a flank. If say I lost my hellions though due to bad micro I could see lings over whelming this in which case id just pick up in medivacs and be annoying with drops until mutas pop. I really dont think pure ling can beat this though, if anything it's designed to beat pure ling and force zerg to make roach or bane to delay muta.
You also still transition into tank play, just for 10 minute timings I think hellion stim is way more effective and way less costly to lose than tank pushes. Tank pushes also can actually be beat pretty easily by mass ling. You also get your infantry infrastructure up earlier with this build vs most tank builds. I really think tank pushes are a thing of the past except on certain smaller maps. It's too easy to overwhelm with lings and be in a good position with muta as zerg imo.
Thanks, I'm glad you liked the guide btw.
Edit: just noticed you said macro hatch, so if you mean zerg is just sitting on 2 base with macro hatch, like I said in guide if zerg is doing some weird 2 base play you can just sit back and not commit, if zerg hasn't taken a third i won't automatically go attack his nat i'll probably just go home and go " well my 3rd cc is already halfway done so I don't even have to do anything I'm ahead".Last edit: 2012-01-10 08:50:33 |
| | Of course it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. If it were easy, everybody would do it. Hard is what makes it great. |
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| Snowbear Korea (South). January 10 2012 08:29. Posts 1705 | Profile Blog # |
Really nice write up. I was searching the whole day to borrow a GSL ticket to watch this particular game (but failed to find one  ), so I could see how his bo went exactly. I saw it live and it seemed really solid!
What I wonder is if it holds a 2base roach ling bling allin (the one that nestea is using a lot on ladder, I saw polt, forgg and bomber die to it).
Then the next think I wonder if it holds a 3 base baneling bust.
Thanks for the effort! Last edit: 2012-01-10 08:31:46 |
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| Nibbler89 January 10 2012 08:32. Posts 656 | Profile Blog # |
On January 10 2012 08:29 Snowbear wrote:Really nice write up. I was searching the whole day to borrow a GSL ticket to watch this particular game (but failed to find one ). I saw it live and it seemed really solid! What I wonder if it holds a 2base roach ling bling allin (the one that nestea is using a lot on ladder, I saw polt, forgg and bomber die to it). Then the next think I wonder if it holds a 3 base baneling bust. Thanks for the effort!
Yeah I think you just have to have good game sense and see the roaches popping with your hellions along with no third. If terran reacts properly and goes up into main with bunker its pretty hard for all in to work. If you are still on lowground you will be in trouble but, all ins are always risky for zerg caus of mules, if terran lives and you didn't kill a ton of scvs zerg usually lose.
Also you're welcome !  Last edit: 2012-01-10 08:35:29 |
| | Of course it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. If it were easy, everybody would do it. Hard is what makes it great. |
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| Asha` United Kingdom. January 10 2012 08:45. Posts 26617 | Profile Blog # |
Great write up Nibbler, thanks for sharing!
Been planning on switching up my general gameplan in TvZ so I might as well have a run with this for a while and see how it goes, always like Jjakji's TvZ (both from GSL and his stream) so he seems a good player to borrow from hehe.Last edit: 2012-01-10 08:46:07 |
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| deth Australia. January 10 2012 09:01. Posts 1548 | Profile Blog # |
| Good writeup, I would suggest you include a spoiler containing the entire build's gameplan though, instead of haphazardly spreading it across multiple areas. Make the build plan look nice |
| | Team Nv | Clan TerrorAustralis |
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| Nibbler89 January 10 2012 09:11. Posts 656 | Profile Blog # |
On January 10 2012 09:01 deth wrote:Good writeup, I would suggest you include a spoiler containing the entire build's gameplan though, instead of haphazardly spreading it across multiple areas. Make the build plan look nice
Do you mean like this?
Opening Stage: Reactor hellion Expand
+ Show Spoiler +10 depot
12rax(2 marines then reactor)
13gas
15 orbital
16 depot
18 factory
22cc(*Jjakji opts to build this in his main even though it's daybreak which I thought was weird considering he scouted hatch first and was going hellion but I guess he was just playing extra safe as this build can greedy / dangerous vs really early roach if you cc on low ground.)
2 hellions from reactor> constant production till 6 hellions.
27supply depot (right after 3rd/4th hellion)
Rax makes tech lab. (marine +stim , make 3 marines out of this rax for a total of 5 marine, then start making marauder)
.
Transition from Opening to get mid game infrastructure up:
+ Show Spoiler +2nd Rax(next to factory with1st reactor)
OC when 2nd cc done.
When 5th/6th hellions pop out, lift up factory and have it build another reactor.
3rd rax next to factory building 2nd reactor.
40/46 supply depot(and throughout will no longer list supply depots)
Marauder production and continue until 4 marauders(Around this time your fifth marine should have been finished for a few seconds JJakji cuts rax production for a few seconds after fifth marine to get the 3rd rax then makes his first marauder)
OC finishes, calls down mule and floats to natural.
Get 2nd gas as factory is near finishing 2nd reactor. (@possibly a tiny bit earlier I will revisit this later, I'm not sure if it was mistake from Jjajki or not.)
Starport
*Put 3rd rax onto 2nd reactor made by factory and have factory start making a 3rd reactor for starport. (*Around this time JJakji also gets a bunker at his natural)
Combat Shields when stim is done.
Constant Marine marauder production. From 3 rax 1 techlab 2 reactor.
@Now this part of the build I would say is the part where it feels like its either not 100% fluid or JJajki may have made a mistake because when the starport with reactor is done, you won't have enough gas for even 1 medivac, as such JJakji just opted to start 1 medivac and the 2nd a bit after. It's not a huge deal but a slightly earlier gas along with maybe making only 3 marauders instead of 4 could possibly avoid this. It doesn't affect your timing much at all though so it's possible it just really doesn't matter. Just don't feel like you made a mistake if you can't make 2 medivacs right away. Just make them as you get the gas.
Cut Medivac production after these initial 2 medivacs until later(explained in Lategame)
Late Game Transition:
+ Show Spoiler +Ok so after the first two medivacs and first 4 marauders have popped you will now be switching completely to marine production no marauders (at least for now) and you will be cutting medivacs until later.
Put down a CC at 400 minerals as your push is moving out. (when its moving out you should only be making 5 marines and 2 scvs at a time so you get money for CC very fast.)
Tech lab on factory
x2 refinery at natural.
x2 engineering bay.
Siege tank + siege mode.
+1+1 (Jjakjis makes a slight mistake and gets his armory late in the VOD I don't think this was intentional considering his resources, so when +1+1 is at around 60% I think you should be getting an armory.)
CC 100%> move to third and make into PF,(you could Opt for orbital depending on map / how well you are doing.)
3 more Rax
Start Medivac production again.
Armory (at 60%)
JJakji eventually adds 2 reactors to his additional 3 rax. I think you could also opt for a tech lab on the 3rd one, for 6 rax with 2 tech lab 4 reactor. this way you are set up for marauder production again if he goes ultra. (or ghost if you like ghosts).
I would also add in another factory if your gas gets high but JJakji finishes the game with this production alone.
He also adds a couple turrets to deny muta but nothing really crazy just a really solid build leading to a strong terran late game.
and then have the game plan? Does anyone else prefer it one way or another? |
| | Of course it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. If it were easy, everybody would do it. Hard is what makes it great. |
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| deth Australia. January 10 2012 09:15. Posts 1548 | Profile Blog # |
| Put all of the building parts together without any of the additional fluff or explanation, so people can have it open on one screen and follow it easily |
| | Team Nv | Clan TerrorAustralis |
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| Nibbler89 January 10 2012 10:19. Posts 656 | Profile Blog # |
On January 10 2012 09:15 deth wrote:Put all of the building parts together without any of the additional fluff or explanation, so people can have it open on one screen and follow it easily
I don't know I think I like to segment it into the 3 general periods of the game, but if other people feel the same way I'll change it.
edit: I did however add at the bottom the build order all in one spoiler with minimal notes.
Now all I need to do is add pictures, title it "Nibblers TvZ Mega chocolately awesome super 99% win build" and it will be a true TL strategy forum guide. jkLast edit: 2012-01-10 10:42:53 |
| | Of course it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. If it were easy, everybody would do it. Hard is what makes it great. |
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| Hossinaut United States. January 10 2012 14:17. Posts 424 | Profile # |
Great write up! It was amazing to watch this game specifically, although I am a big Sen fan. NsHs_jjakji is just an amazing player, and it was really cool to watch him just take Sen apart.
I think a primary mistake was going roach against Terran, I'd have preferred setting up some flanks instead of roaches, but whatever. I'm not nearly on his level. I can't say I like Sen's ling/infestor/ultra against T either... it just dies to any harassment and well-placed tanks. Watching Sen get torn apart by SlayerS_'Boxer' was just embarrassing as a Zerg player. D: |
| | Be nice to people, as people are nice to nice people :D |
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| TyrionSC2 United States. January 10 2012 14:48. Posts 253 | Profile # |
I personally think going roach baneling would crush the little marine hellion timing push and the game would snowball from there.
Of course he added a few marauders, but roach bane is pretty darn powerful and Sen was a tiny bit greedy when that push came.
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| Nibbler89 January 10 2012 15:36. Posts 656 | Profile Blog # |
On January 10 2012 14:48 TyrionSC2 wrote:
I personally think going roach baneling would crush the little marine hellion timing push and the game would snowball from there.
Of course he added a few marauders, but roach bane is pretty darn powerful and Sen was a tiny bit greedy when that push came.
I have to disagree as roach bane is a relatively expensive comp comp both mineral and gas wise, yes it gives zerg the opportunity to crush this push but it also significantly delays his tech,drones, and expanding. Remember you are putting down a 3rd cc as you are moving out it's not some 2 base all in, so as long as you target fire down some banes and trade cost effectively or heck if hes investing in such a expensive comp that honestly isn't so hot in the late game you don't have to commit you can just feint and drop since he won't have muta with roach bane and then steamroll him in the late game when he has a bunch of useless roach with no upgrade. I also don't think sen was being that greedy, he didnt have that many more drones than jjakji tbh, it was just a unlucky / bad timing for sen caus his bane speed which is a relatively large investment wasn't quite finished. If anything I thought sen was playing too safe, he got 3 spine crawlers a wall and still got roaches all relatively early (imo) I think maybe he expected hellion marauder all in but who knows.Last edit: 2012-01-10 15:42:12 |
| | Of course it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. If it were easy, everybody would do it. Hard is what makes it great. |
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| Azzur Australia. January 10 2012 15:46. Posts 5852 | Profile Blog # |
Jjakji is a very good player and would've loved analysis of his builds in the Code S Nov Finals.
With due respect to Sen, he's not in the same league as Jjakji and anything Jjakji did would've won anyways. Also, Sen seems to have a curiously dated concept of building defensive roaches... |
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| Nibbler89 January 10 2012 15:50. Posts 656 | Profile Blog # |
On January 10 2012 15:46 Azzur wrote:
Jjakji is a very good player and would've loved analysis of his builds in the Code S Nov Finals.
With due respect to Sen, he's not in the same league as Jjakji and anything Jjakji did would've won anyways. Also, Sen seems to have a curiously dated concept of building defensive roaches...
Yeah it was a bit time consuming to write but it was sort of fun as well. I may consider writing guides on other GSL builds I see if I think they are really spectacular or new looking such as this one. If you see any room for improvement let me know in case I write a future guide. |
| | Of course it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. If it were easy, everybody would do it. Hard is what makes it great. |
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| Markwerf Netherlands. January 10 2012 16:11. Posts 2845 | Profile # |
I don't think you should call this Jjakji TvZ as this is just one of Jjakji's builds which he did just one time I think.
Key to Jjakji's TvZ is that he nearly always goes reactor hellion but uses many different followups which make it very hard to know what he is doing. Especially considering Jjakji usually uses the first two marines to aggresively hunt overlords (the paths of which he knows very well) and that most GSL maps have a large distance before to cover before overlord arrives.
This is also probably the reason that he goes CC in base if he does it at all. All the reactor hellion builds look alike from the outside but the defenses zerg must apply differ vastly some of the followups are:
- quick siege tanks + siege mode and 3rd CC (see bomber guide). Very good on maps like shakuras
- quick 2nd gas and starport for (cloaked) banshee's. (see Jjakji vs Sen g1 for example or ogsfin style)
- blue flame + marauder push
- 2nd CC and mass bio followup (basically this guide)
Key to the success is hiding the build partially hence the early walloff and active marine patrolling are crucial along with not showing a second CC too early if you can avoid it. I'm not sure but I recall that Jjakji didn't scout and simply waited for his hellions to do that but I'm not sure, either way I definately recommend that as it allows for a much earlier walloff. You can go 2nd depot before OC by doing so, OC should always be at 17 instead of 15 since the rax build time nerf imo.
Anyway it would be better to focus on the different followups that are possible I think for such a guide then just copying one build to the detail. It's pretty pointless to lay out a guide to the small details like this anyway, if you're playing it's much more important to remember the relative timings of everything then to know at what supply you make what etc. |
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| Nibbler89 January 10 2012 16:24. Posts 656 | Profile Blog # |
On January 10 2012 16:11 Markwerf wrote:
I don't think you should call this Jjakji TvZ as this is just one of Jjakji's builds which he did just one time I think.
Key to Jjakji's TvZ is that he nearly always goes reactor hellion but uses many different followups which make it very hard to know what he is doing. Especially considering Jjakji usually uses the first two marines to aggresively hunt overlords (the paths of which he knows very well) and that most GSL maps have a large distance before to cover before overlord arrives.
This is also probably the reason that he goes CC in base if he does it at all. All the reactor hellion builds look alike from the outside but the defenses zerg must apply differ vastly some of the followups are:
- quick siege tanks + siege mode and 3rd CC (see bomber guide). Very good on maps like shakuras
- quick 2nd gas and starport for (cloaked) banshee's. (see Jjakji vs Sen g1 for example or ogsfin style)
- blue flame + marauder push
- 2nd CC and mass bio followup (basically this guide)
Key to the success is hiding the build partially hence the early walloff and active marine patrolling are crucial along with not showing a second CC too early if you can avoid it. I'm not sure but I recall that Jjakji didn't scout and simply waited for his hellions to do that but I'm not sure, either way I definately recommend that as it allows for a much earlier walloff. You can go 2nd depot before OC by doing so, OC should always be at 17 instead of 15 since the rax build time nerf imo.
Anyway it would be better to focus on the different followups that are possible I think for such a guide then just copying one build to the detail. It's pretty pointless to lay out a guide to the small details like this anyway, if you're playing it's much more important to remember the relative timings of everything then to know at what supply you make what etc.
Yeah tbh thats how I remember things for builds just the order in which they are made but I figured some people would like supplys. I wasn't really too sure on what to title it, I obviously know he uses multiple tvz builds just as bomber does, but the fast 3 cc is still typically known as "bomber tvz".
I think many people like to practice just one build on ladder typically until they get very good at it especially if it's a macro build so I think writing a guide on one specific macro build with very good timings is ok. I think you're sort of suggesting if I'm going to write a guide about a jjakji tvz build I should include every single build he does all in one guide as opposed to just detailing a single one. I don't disagree that would certainly be an awesome guide but I'm not sure if I want to invest that much time into it. Changing the title to be more correct definitely sounds easier. Thanks for your input though if I see Jjakji do another variation I particularly like but is still a macro build (which is the type I favor) I will include it in this guide as a variation.
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| | Of course it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. If it were easy, everybody would do it. Hard is what makes it great. |
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| LouderXY China. January 10 2012 16:44. Posts 16 | Profile # |
| The guide and the following discussion is really helpful! Thanks! |
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| houstil France. January 10 2012 19:28. Posts 57 | Profile # |
At what exact timing the stim attack is supposed to hit ? Is it around 10:00 ?
I usually use the Seth 6 roach pressure build into taking a quick third (with a pair of ling to deny your scv scout).
I think that it would perform very well against this build. Roaches might delay your push a little bit and should deny any hellion harass.
Then the 10 min timing should be defendable with roach-ling-bane on creep (no lair tech).
The compo does delay the lair but it's really robust and not that costly (at that time my third is already half saturated so I can afford those units without being behind eco-wise).
Although you don't have to engage if you see enough units and can always fall back to macro on your quick third and transition into heavy dropship harass to punish the late tech.
It should still give zerg a slight eco lead but it might be hard to defend against mutlipronged attack before the muta transition. I would like to test it, PM me if anyone is intrested.Last edit: 2012-01-10 19:32:59 |
| | houstil.678 on EU - banesh.232 on US | friendly master and servant of the swarm |
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| Markwerf Netherlands. January 10 2012 19:50. Posts 2845 | Profile # |
On January 10 2012 19:28 houstil wrote:
At what exact timing the stim attack is supposed to hit ? Is it around 10:00 ?
I usually use the Seth 6 roach pressure build into taking a quick third (with a pair of ling to deny your scv scout).
I think that it would perform very well against this build. Roaches might delay your push a little bit and should deny any hellion harass.
Then the 10 min timing should be defendable with roach-ling-bane on creep (no lair tech).
The compo does delay the lair but it's really robust and not that costly (at that time my third is already half saturated so I can afford those units without being behind eco-wise).
Although you don't have to engage if you see enough units and can always fall back to macro on your quick third and transition into heavy dropship harass to punish the late tech.
It should still give zerg a slight eco lead but it might be hard to defend against mutlipronged attack before the muta transition. I would like to test it, PM me if anyone is intrested.
I wouldn't recommend roach much against reactor hellion openings these days. Roaches are good if T continues hellion production but that's not happening often anymore since blue flame got nerfed, mech play is also not common anymore which is basically the only situation where lategame roach is good.
Roach pressure also just sucks on bigger maps, as it takes way too long to reach the terran. Whatever followup terran had in mind it's easy to react to roach and most of the times those roaches are a waste of money:
- they plan on getting quick stim thus have techlab on the rax => make a few marauders and your roaches became bad
- they followup with banshee => your roaches suck now
- they want to quick siege tanks after a few hellions thus they make a techlab on rax and prepare for swap => if they see your roaches moving out they can make marauders and/or tanks already.
I would only ever go roachpressure in ZvT now if you know for sure terran is massing up hellions (at least 8 and/or blueflame) and the map is small enough to surprise terran. A few defensive roaches can be ok to allow you to move your creep out more aggresively but I think a simcity with evo, spines and queens is preferrable. Just go quick muta / quick infestors instead to clear the hellions imo. |
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