[G] PvP - 4 Gate is Dead

no that map sucks for pvp.
i veto tda just because of pvp.
no point in playing pvp there. total coin flippage all around. winning 100 games on that map and losing none is like kissing your sister.

high five

probes get rich or die mining.

Teoita Italy. March 08 2012 23:20. Posts 4214

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I don't know if it's me being bad or executing the build wrong or there's a typing error, but i don't think the 1gate robo build holds a 4gate because going robo before sentry means there's no way you will get it out by 5.20 ish.

Protoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.

Alejandrisha United States. March 09 2012 00:20. Posts 4993

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On March 08 2012 23:20 Teoita wrote:
I don't know if it's me being bad or executing the build wrong or there's a typing error, but i don't think the 1gate robo build holds a 4gate because going robo before sentry means there's no way you will get it out by 5.20 ish.

screen shot in op it must be true! :D

probes get rich or die mining.

Teoita Italy. March 09 2012 00:22. Posts 4214

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Holy wtf do you have a replay of that? You only included 2gate robo in the thread

By the way thanks for the awesome guides ^^

Protoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.

Westy England. March 13 2012 04:17. Posts 679

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Having some trouble with this build against 4gates. In the OP you say after the 4th sentry the 4gate is over, but this just is not true. Some people will keep forcing up your ramp. And 2 stalkers and 4 sentries just doesn't kill fast enough to stop the 4gate from killing your 3gates if you ever let them up the ramp. So you need at least 6 sentries to stop the 4gate from ever getting up your ramp. Which is fine, but because you have invested so much in sentries you can't actually ever engage them until you have really pushed ahead in either economy or tech, which in turn gives them enough time to tech or expand.

Do you have any replays of how this is actually supposed to work against people who 4gate and just keep pushing against the ramp until you have enough sentrys to chain FF forever?

Thanks

AlphaDotCom United States. March 13 2012 06:34. Posts 43

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On March 13 2012 04:17 Westy wrote:
Having some trouble with this build against 4gates. In the OP you say after the 4th sentry the 4gate is over, but this just is not true. Some people will keep forcing up your ramp. And 2 stalkers and 4 sentries just doesn't kill fast enough to stop the 4gate from killing your 3gates if you ever let them up the ramp. So you need at least 6 sentries to stop the 4gate from ever getting up your ramp. Which is fine, but because you have invested so much in sentries you can't actually ever engage them until you have really pushed ahead in either economy or tech, which in turn gives them enough time to tech or expand.

Do you have any replays of how this is actually supposed to work against people who 4gate and just keep pushing against the ramp until you have enough sentrys to chain FF forever?

Thanks

if as soon as u realize its a 4 gate (about 5:30 or so) you add 1 or even 2 gates because your money will get high due to the fact that ur warping in sentry only, u will be able to afford zealot warpins and sentries then by the time and you should be able to start killing units with ff once u hit a decent ammount of units yourself so even though eventually u run out of ff he loses chunks of army every time he goes up. Maybe even doing the same concept but instead of gates add forge and cannon or 2 near ramp so that u can use these to make him back off(this would be a good idea with stargate builds). If ur going robo you should be able to get immortal and delay with ff until then. With blink I think alej expains how to get blink and get enough units to hold till then because twilight is cheapest tech building.

everything is ez when ur terran

IrOnKaL United States. March 13 2012 06:43. Posts 337

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I win about 80% of the time with 4gate still in pvp, last season was around 950 points in masters. Same applies this season. I wouldn't say it's dead on ladder at all.

NeThZOR South Africa. March 13 2012 07:12. Posts 828

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Great guide, maybe I'll start following your advice and try to do these builds. But I do not really have a problem with 4gate on ladder, as I do not face that build like 95% of the time. On the other hand, it is more often me who is executing the 4gate, and winning :D I am aware that it is cheesy, but PvP is just so hard if the game goes on for too long. I do not always 4gate though; I also go 3gate robo, 3 stalker rush, stargate etc, it is just that I find so much success with the 4gate build that I use if frequently.

Last edit: 2012-03-13 07:13:34

He who learns but does not think, is lost! He who thinks but does not learn is in great danger. Confucius

Alejandrisha United States. March 21 2012 08:24. Posts 4993

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http://drop.sc/136035
i think this is something like what you're talking bout
edit: http://drop.sc/136025
this too! let me know if they are totally wrong and i'll go back to lookin

Last edit: 2012-03-21 08:25:25

probes get rich or die mining.

aZealot New Zealand. March 21 2012 09:36. Posts 1368

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Don't you need the Sentry energy only until your Immortal comes out? Also yeah, my mechanics must suck (I have a Gold rank, so go figure) but I can never get the 1st Sentry out by 5.20 ish. My first one is usually out by about 5.40 ish. I have held 4 gates before with that timing doing the 1 Gate Robo - but clearly they were never against an optimal 4 Gate. I drop the chrono on the Sentry though, rather than the second Stalker but I am not clear as how that would make a difference.

"How dull it is to pause, to make an end, To rust unburnished, not to shine in use!"

Trusty New Zealand. March 21 2012 09:39. Posts 520

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On March 21 2012 09:36 aZealot wrote:
Don't you need the Sentry energy only until your Immortal comes out? Also yeah, my mechanics must suck (I have a Gold rank, so go figure) but I can never get the 1st Sentry out by 5.20 ish. My first one is usually out by about 5.40 ish. I have held 4 gates before with that timing doing the 1 Gate Robo - but clearly they were never against an optimal 4 Gate. I drop the chrono on the Sentry though, rather than the second Stalker but I am not clear as how that would make a difference.

you're just using your 4th 'safety chrono' that would normally needed to be put on your CyCore if you were being hardcore 4gated.

You're correct in that at your level no one probably has the hardcore 4gate tight enough to make that 4th cb matter for you.

Westy England. April 09 2012 17:57. Posts 679

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On March 21 2012 08:24 Alejandrisha wrote:

Show nested quote +

http://drop.sc/136035
i think this is something like what you're talking bout
edit: http://drop.sc/136025
this too! let me know if they are totally wrong and i'll go back to lookin

Not exactly. In the first one he was stupid to actually go up the ramp after you had your cannon up, in the second one the 4gate came so late you already had your tech out. I can hold the 4gate, but by doing so I invest so much gas into sentries that my tech is delayed, and my army is very weak. He can keep pressuring my ramp while taking his second gas and teching or while expanding. Once I have enough to actually let him get some units up my ramp, he can just fall back and play defensive with superior tech, army and economy. And as the game goes on those 5/6 sentries become even more detrimental as they end up playing almost no part in any engagements once he gets archons/collosus.

Cyro United Kingdom. April 09 2012 18:28. Posts 5684

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On March 13 2012 06:43 IrOnKaL wrote:
I win about 80% of the time with 4gate still in pvp, last season was around 950 points in masters. Same applies this season. I wouldn't say it's dead on ladder at all.

Came back here to say just this, im not mid/high masters myself (yet) but even pro players have shown that they cannot defend simple 4gates, even ones with small execution errors not made by people in low/mid masters with practiced 4gates, i doubt it will ever be out of the standard range on ladder because so many have proven that they are all too willing to take economic/tech risks and play in greedy coinflippy ways, especially those below like mid masters who seem to have no idea what they can and cant do, and (as it seems to have come up from all of the bad "focus on 1 BO per matchup" advice) will go 3gate robo every game, often in an overly greedy or flawed way

Defender of Esports # "oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88 # "there really isn’t any actual need to have the minerals and gas constantly displayed" - Blizzard

moQbara Romania. April 09 2012 18:43. Posts 74

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Plat toss here.
I've been 4gating for the last days in my PvP, with a great deal of success, after losing to it several times.
The problem with plat-level tosses (and I'm fairly confident this extends at least to diamond if not to master), is that they rarely have proper ff control. More often than not, FFs will be badly placed and / or overlapped, resulting in insufficient sentry energy for constant ramp FF.
I believe the concepts in this thread are awesome indeed, but only for players with good control. For me, as well as most other players of my level, holding a 4gate by pure [FF] skill is too difficult. It's a lot easier to go 4g until we improve apm / FF usage.

I am a noob

Alejandrisha United States. April 16 2012 04:06. Posts 4993

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On April 09 2012 18:43 moQbara wrote:
Plat toss here.
I've been 4gating for the last days in my PvP, with a great deal of success, after losing to it several times.
The problem with plat-level tosses (and I'm fairly confident this extends at least to diamond if not to master), is that they rarely have proper ff control. More often than not, FFs will be badly placed and / or overlapped, resulting in insufficient sentry energy for constant ramp FF.
I believe the concepts in this thread are awesome indeed, but only for players with good control. For me, as well as most other players of my level, holding a 4gate by pure [FF] skill is too difficult. It's a lot easier to go 4g until we improve apm / FF usage.

Yes-- unless you can reliably get the first sentry out by 5:35 I advise against using the 1gate openers here. also here is a replay pack of my s6 pvp games, mostly 1g SG. will add to op
http://drop.sc/packs/681

probes get rich or die mining.

tehemperorer United States. April 18 2012 00:58. Posts 2180

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Great read I came back here to get my head straight from using Saro Vati's PvP build with the 5-8 stalkers (it's not that efficient, but thanks SV!)

Thanks Alej, high five.

Edit: Bison vs Bison or PvP, which is worse?

Last edit: 2012-04-18 01:01:32

Knowing is half the battle... the other half is lasers.