| RemarK United States. January 13 2012 18:40. Posts 404 | Profile Blog # |
I have a pretty competent 4-gate I think, I'd be glad to play a few games with you to test out your builds. You can message me on battle.net at ioRemarK.771 anytime I am on  |
| | Thug means never having to say you're sorry | Grandmaster Protoss for Team FXO: www.twitch.tv/tsremark | @FXORemarK |
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| sebsejr January 13 2012 19:00. Posts 209 | Profile Blog # |
| Wauw awesome, insightful post! love it! thanks a bunch! <3 |
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| -iNko Lithuania. January 13 2012 19:46. Posts 155 | Profile # |
| hopefully this will improve my pvp :x gonna dedicate all day for testing all these builds thx |
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 Linoge Hungary. January 14 2012 00:46. Posts 115 | Profile # | |
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| SaroVati Canada. January 14 2012 00:56. Posts 245 | Profile # |
On January 13 2012 18:40 soLremarK wrote:I have a pretty competent 4-gate I think, I'd be glad to play a few games with you to test out your builds. You can message me on battle.net at ioRemarK.771 anytime I am on
If you manage to practice a few games out, pm me and I'll try my 3 gate pressure and see if he's behind economically as well :> But i vouch for remark, his 4 gate is as strong as any 4 gate you'll face. |
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| Treehead January 14 2012 01:04. Posts 998 | Profile Blog # |
I was wondering why you didn't respond to my question about the 3-gate, til I saw this:
On January 11 2012 01:08 Alejandrisha wrote:I'm opening this one up to you guys. If you think your 4gate is good, shoot me a pm and I'd be happy to stamp it out with this build :D And your replays will go right here! Also if you have the the 11gate into 3 gate pressure build down pretty well, I'd like to run this against that a bunch of times as well.
I wish my 3-gate were better, but I'm not very good unfortunately. |
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| soapyy. United States. January 14 2012 01:20. Posts 84 | Profile # |
| I would agree that 4 gate is pretty easy to beat now.. Just 3 gate robo get 2 immortals and win! |
| | www.twitch.tv/sirsoapyy A little bit of soul train is in everyone. |
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| Alejandrisha United States. January 14 2012 01:26. Posts 5003 | Profile Blog # |
On January 13 2012 18:40 soLremarK wrote:I have a pretty competent 4-gate I think, I'd be glad to play a few games with you to test out your builds. You can message me on battle.net at ioRemarK.771 anytime I am on
k bout to log on and add you thanks for your response |
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| Dauntless Norway. January 14 2012 03:09. Posts 454 | Profile # |
I only want to thank you for an amazing guide. I read it all while watching the replays and trying to understand the reasoning behind it all. Gonna try to practice out the build orders when I have time.
Also, it'd be nice to see some replays with 1g SG and 2g SG =) |
| | Dauntless.156 EU || Liquid´HerO | Grubby.Grubby | |
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| Alejandrisha United States. January 14 2012 03:12. Posts 5003 | Profile Blog # |
On January 14 2012 03:09 Dauntless wrote:
I only want to thank you for an amazing guide. I read it all while watching the replays and trying to understand the reasoning behind it all. Gonna try to practice out the build orders when I have time.
Also, it'd be nice to see some replays with 1g SG and 2g SG =)
BAM!
1g sg vs 1g robo - robo blink
on maps where you're forced to scout earlier (12), don't be afraid to use the information you get and be a little more greedy when appropriate. here, he cb'd his nexus a third time so i felt fine moving out without worrying about a probe sneaking behind the front lines. then, i see a sentry so i feel free to cut mine, and cut my 3rd gate as well.Last edit: 2012-01-14 03:16:48 |
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| Alejandrisha United States. January 14 2012 04:29. Posts 5003 | Profile Blog # |
Emyndri was kind enough to play some games. I lost a few games to 4gate from supply blocking my 2nd sentry, but held when I got the 2nd sentry out timely. It's very easy to make these kinds of mistakes under pressure, so make sure you prioritize your actions. microing stalkers might seem very important, but as long as no probe is sneaking through and your stalkers are hitting pylons, focus on executing the build.
here was a pretty good example
http://drop.sc/91204
his 4gate is off of an 11 gate so it wg comes a few seconds faster than usual. however, this means his approach is a bit weaker because he needs to cut the zealot to get the gateways up in time. to account for this, he brings 2 probes. so long as you timely take down the probes and cancel any above ground pylons (shouldn't be hard because the approach cuts units), the safe build should beat it 100% of the time.
also note: you'll see I don't scout as early as I ought to on xel'naga. the only reason we used xel'naga was because it is the hardest to map on which to effectively zone the approach
edit: leave your char code here or pm me with it if you feel confident in your 4gate and you'd like to do this with me. i'd be glad to play some games with you
Last edit: 2012-01-14 04:31:33 |
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| quillian United States. January 14 2012 04:31. Posts 278 | Profile # |
Love all the details for different tech transition, thanks for continuing to update this!
re - 10 gate > 3 gate wg cheese, I'm maybe 95% on executing this build but I'd be happy to try it, as I want you to be right =)
The theoretical build is like this:
9 pylon
10 gateway
10 probe*
13 assimilator > transfer 3
14 scout
14 cybernetics core
15 zealot
17 pylon
@100 gas put 1 probe on minerals
18 warpgate*****
18 stalker
21 gateway [2]
21 put 1 probe on gas
22 stalker
26 pylon
26 transform to warpgate [3]
26 stalker [3]
32 pylon
32 zealot [3]
It's extremely tight and can be tough to execute perfectly (gas micro isn't necessary, but helps ideally), but it demands even tighter play from your opponent to not die. The difference from a normal 3/4 gate is you can place the first proxy pylon more conservatively away from their ramp, and warp in a round of stalkers before placing your forward pylon at the ramp to warp in zealots on the high ground.
You can be very conservative/careful with your probe for the first pylon as it just has to be nearby. When you push for the 2nd pylon, you have cover from 5 stalkers and a zealot at the normal time a 4 gate would have just 1s 1z. this makes it pretty certain to place the forward pylon before the probe is sniped.
With your build, I'm not sure if you can get zealot stalker stalker sentry out in time to FF ramp when he first pokes. Maybe if you cb 2nd stalker and sentry, but this leaves less for WG. If you cut one of the stalkers, though, and go for faster sentry it might hold.
I'm a bit busy this weekend but could run some tests sun/monday maybeLast edit: 2012-01-14 04:33:34 |
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| Alejandrisha United States. January 14 2012 04:33. Posts 5003 | Profile Blog # |
On January 14 2012 04:31 quillian wrote:
Love all the details for different tech transition, thanks for continuing to update this!
re - 10 gate > 3 gate wg cheese, I'm maybe 95% on executing this build but I'd be happy to try it, as I want you to be right =)
The theoretical build is like this:
9 pylon
10 gateway
10 probe*
13 assimilator > transfer 3
14 scout
14 cybernetics core
15 zealot
17 pylon
@100 gas put 1 probe on minerals
18 warpgate*****
18 stalker
21 gateway [2]
21 put 1 probe on gas
22 stalker
26 pylon
26 transform to warpgate [3]
26 stalker [3]
32 pylon
32 zealot [3]
It's extremely tight and can be tough to execute perfectly, but it demands even tighter play from your opponent to not die. The difference from a normal 3/4 gate is you can place the first proxy pylon more conservatively away from their ramp, and warp in a round of stalkers before placing your forward pylon at the ramp to warp in zealots on the high ground. You can be very conservative/careful with your probe for the first pylon as it just has to be nearby. When you push for the 2nd pylon, you have cover from 5 stalkers and a zealot at the normal time a 4 gate would have just 1s 1z. this makes it pretty certain to place the forward pylon before the probe is sniped.
With your build, I'm not sure if you can get zealot stalker stalker sentry out in time to FF ramp when he first pokes. Maybe if you cb 2nd stalker and sentry, but this leaves less for WG. If you cut one of the stalkers, though, and go for faster sentry it might hold.
I'm a bit busy this weekend but could run some tests sun/monday maybe
sure! pm me your char code or leave it here. in the meantime i'll run this build to look at timings and such to see if it would be more effective than 11 gate with 5 cb on wg
looks like i can warp in up to 4-5 seconds faster than the 11gate build. this is good because you can force the first forcefield faster, which might stop the 1gater from getting his 3rd sentry out in time for the 3rd forcefield. you really can't play safe with the 1st proxy pylon, though. you need to proxy those two pylons under the ramp to cut down on distance from warp in to getting vision of the ramp, forcing the first forcefield to go down. the first forcefield will be in time, but it cuts it so close that the 2nd and 3rd forcefields will be hard to hit timely. i might have to pull probes to deny vision up the ramp while the 2nd sentry is getting out, something i was considering for the 11gate build as well. hope to test it soonLast edit: 2012-01-14 04:48:55 |
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| quillian United States. January 14 2012 05:20. Posts 278 | Profile # |
ok it's good the sentry is out. Obviously pulling probes isn't ideal but if you can hold it off you are probably gaining an advantage over time. Compared to 11 gate 4 gate this build has 1 less gate and just relies on the super early timing, so each warp in you can hold you are evening it out a bit.
My main worry is that since you don't scout, if you don't expect this and slack at all on sentry timing the FF won't be ready.
Is it possible to play your build and be safe with an earlier scout?
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| Alejandrisha United States. January 14 2012 05:43. Posts 5003 | Profile Blog # |
On January 14 2012 05:20 quillian wrote:
ok it's good the sentry is out. Obviously pulling probes isn't ideal but if you can hold it off you are probably gaining an advantage over time. Compared to 11 gate 4 gate this build has 1 less gate and just relies on the super early timing, so each warp in you can hold you are evening it out a bit.
My main worry is that since you don't scout, if you don't expect this and slack at all on sentry timing the FF won't be ready.
Is it possible to play your build and be safe with an earlier scout?
1st sentry will be out at the same time regardless of the scout. the 2nd sentry will be out at the same time regardless of scout as well, as the only variation to get it faster is a 4th cb on WG which happens after i see the pylon(s).
if you're 4gating me and i don't see pylons below my ramp until it's too late for me to cb my wg accordingly, i'm not worried as you can't threaten an above ramp warp-in before i already have my 2nd sentry is out. nani build too genius O_OLast edit: 2012-01-14 05:45:28 |
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| libum1 Canada. January 14 2012 08:08. Posts 5 | Profile # |
- I am a masters level random player
- I learned protoss in masters, as random
- I lose ~80% of my pvp's
- you sir, are a god. Thank-you for this amazing and in-depth post that has significantly built my understanding of this god-forsaken race |
| | practise makes perfect, but no ones perfect so why practise |
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| dtmwerks January 14 2012 09:11. Posts 8 | Profile # |
Could someone explain to me a few things? I'm masters across the board but it's true that 4 gate is often my kryptonite. I understand this counters 4 gate, but without scouting til the second pylon, how can I get past a stalker at the ramp? Let's say I do get past and his chrono boost saved up hints at a 4 gate, I'm putting in almost as much chrono boost into my warp gate as he is. What's the point if I only have 2-3 gateways? Or maybe I wasn't too clear on the build. If I'm putting that much into warp gates, why don't I jus go 4 gate?
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| KalWarkov Germany. January 14 2012 09:21. Posts 2800 | Profile Blog # |
nice writeup.
But: really hard 4 gates played by high gm players are still amazingly hard to hold with 2 gate tech-builds. with 3 gates you are on the safer site.
PvP will always be a bit problematic, since: greedy build > safe build > 4 gate > greedy build if everything goes "normal"
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| | DiaBoLuS *** HotS Grandmaster level Protoss / 6x GM in WoL & Dota2 very high bracket pub player *** TOP 30 Foreigner Ranking (Blog) - http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=412415 *** |
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| VashTS United States. January 14 2012 09:41. Posts 1537 | Profile # |
Alej. I sincerely hope this catches on at pro-level play. Less 4g vs 4g PvP would make me very happy.
+ Show Spoiler + |
| | VashTS; 330; Random -- Ranked #9 Pokemon Video Game Player in the World in 2009 |
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| BlueBoxSC United States. January 14 2012 09:47. Posts 536 | Profile Blog # |
On January 14 2012 01:20 soapyy. wrote:
I would agree that 4 gate is pretty easy to beat now.. Just 3 gate robo get 2 immortals and win!
I thought that was the consensus. ☻.☻ |
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