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Public Service AnnouncementUse the Champion threads whenever appropriate. Don't use General Discussion simply out of ease. ===== If you want to whine about server lag, use the QQ thread. We all suffer alike when Riot servers kaput. No need to make a post about it in GD. | Two_DoWn United States. February 01 2012 07:03. Posts 7270 | Profile Blog # |
Simple reason I dont actually believe the "Ez is good in china na players are all just dumb" argument morello throws out is that Ez is a noob stomper. Chinese server is fairly new.
Not to mention all the top chinese players were fromer/current NA players. I find it very hard to believe that they understand something more about the game than the best players in the world.
I think this is more a case of Riot simply seeing a lot of ez being played in their data and thinking he must be fine. |
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| Seuss United States. February 01 2012 07:07. Posts 3020 | Profile Blog # |
| Isn't Shaco also huge in China? Or was that Korea? |
| | Mondays with Monte: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384187 | Schrödinger's Elo |
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| wei2coolman United States. February 01 2012 07:22. Posts 9784 | Profile # |
On February 01 2012 07:03 Two_DoWn wrote:
Simple reason I dont actually believe the "Ez is good in china na players are all just dumb" argument morello throws out is that Ez is a noob stomper. Chinese server is fairly new.
Not to mention all the top chinese players were fromer/current NA players. I find it very hard to believe that they understand something more about the game than the best players in the world.
I think this is more a case of Riot simply seeing a lot of ez being played in their data and thinking he must be fine.
TBH i think ez is still really strong, the problem is it takes more skills and more risk to reach the same effectiveness as other AD carries, like graves, and sivir. |
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| WhiteDog France. February 01 2012 07:29. Posts 3519 | Profile Blog # |
On February 01 2012 07:22 wei2coolman wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 07:03 Two_DoWn wrote:
Simple reason I dont actually believe the "Ez is good in china na players are all just dumb" argument morello throws out is that Ez is a noob stomper. Chinese server is fairly new.
Not to mention all the top chinese players were fromer/current NA players. I find it very hard to believe that they understand something more about the game than the best players in the world.
I think this is more a case of Riot simply seeing a lot of ez being played in their data and thinking he must be fine.
TBH i think ez is still really strong, the problem is it takes more skills and more risk to reach the same effectiveness as other AD carries, like graves, and sivir.
If it were a question of skill, then one pro would have mastered ez. Ez just lack damage mid to late game compare to any other common ad carry I think... It's as simple as that. |
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 Roffles  Tuvalu. February 01 2012 07:34. Posts 14400 | Profile Blog # |
On February 01 2012 07:07 Seuss wrote:
Isn't Shaco also huge in China? Or was that Korea?
Korean Shaco es very stronk. |
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| Promises Netherlands. February 01 2012 07:34. Posts 1329 | Profile # |
On February 01 2012 05:49 lurked wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 17:44 gtrsrs wrote:
Don't even bother theorycrafting about the drummer I'll just let you know from my source that it's trundle
If that is true, instant-buy for me. I've been waiting for a half-decent skin for trundle for quite a while... It would be more than time for them to release a new one!
Animal! Please let it be Animal! |
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| Two_DoWn United States. February 01 2012 07:34. Posts 7270 | Profile Blog # |
Optimally played Ezreal is on the same level as any other optimally played carry.
Of course, optimally played Ezreal means no Triforce and no mana items- you hit every skillshot and calculate your mana perfectly so that you are able to get as much damage as possible out of your mana pool.
Which is, frankly, impossible. Not to mention optimal corki, which involves the same hypothetical mana mastery, is still better than optimal Ezreal.
But in a tournament game, relying on being better than your opponent is suicide, especially when 90% corki, sivir, cait, graves, or vayne is about 1000000000000000000000000000% better than 90% ezreal. |
| | Cry havoc and let slip the hogs of war~ |
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| Requizen United States. February 01 2012 07:40. Posts 7359 | Profile Blog # |
On February 01 2012 07:29 WhiteDog wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 07:22 wei2coolman wrote:
On February 01 2012 07:03 Two_DoWn wrote:
Simple reason I dont actually believe the "Ez is good in china na players are all just dumb" argument morello throws out is that Ez is a noob stomper. Chinese server is fairly new.
Not to mention all the top chinese players were fromer/current NA players. I find it very hard to believe that they understand something more about the game than the best players in the world.
I think this is more a case of Riot simply seeing a lot of ez being played in their data and thinking he must be fine.
TBH i think ez is still really strong, the problem is it takes more skills and more risk to reach the same effectiveness as other AD carries, like graves, and sivir.
If it were a question of skill, then one pro would have mastered ez. Ez just lack damage mid to late game compare to any other common ad carry I think... It's as simple as that.
What are you talking about, he wrecks mid game. Him and Corki are the mid game beasts, when you have late game monsters like Vayne/Kog/Trist and early game winners like Cait.
There used to be more than a few good Ez players, but with the advent of champs like Vayne, Graves, and Kog, pro players aren't going to pick a good champ when they can pick a great one instead.
The argument is never that Ez is bad, just that there are better choices aside from him. |
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| wei2coolman United States. February 01 2012 07:46. Posts 9784 | Profile # |
On February 01 2012 07:40 Requizen wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 07:29 WhiteDog wrote:
On February 01 2012 07:22 wei2coolman wrote:
On February 01 2012 07:03 Two_DoWn wrote:
Simple reason I dont actually believe the "Ez is good in china na players are all just dumb" argument morello throws out is that Ez is a noob stomper. Chinese server is fairly new.
Not to mention all the top chinese players were fromer/current NA players. I find it very hard to believe that they understand something more about the game than the best players in the world.
I think this is more a case of Riot simply seeing a lot of ez being played in their data and thinking he must be fine.
TBH i think ez is still really strong, the problem is it takes more skills and more risk to reach the same effectiveness as other AD carries, like graves, and sivir.
If it were a question of skill, then one pro would have mastered ez. Ez just lack damage mid to late game compare to any other common ad carry I think... It's as simple as that.
What are you talking about, he wrecks mid game. Him and Corki are the mid game beasts, when you have late game monsters like Vayne/Kog/Trist and early game winners like Cait. There used to be more than a few good Ez players, but with the advent of champs like Vayne, Graves, and Kog, pro players aren't going to pick a good champ when they can pick a great one instead. The argument is never that Ez is bad, just that there are better choices aside from him.
I think "easier" choice is a better use of word. It's just easier to right click to victory than it is to hit skill shots. |
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| Seuss United States. February 01 2012 08:05. Posts 3020 | Profile Blog # |
On February 01 2012 07:34 Two_DoWn wrote:
Optimally played Ezreal is on the same level as any other optimally played carry.
Of course, optimally played Ezreal means no Triforce and no mana items- you hit every skillshot and calculate your mana perfectly so that you are able to get as much damage as possible out of your mana pool.
Which is, frankly, impossible. Not to mention optimal corki, which involves the same hypothetical mana mastery, is still better than optimal Ezreal.
But in a tournament game, relying on being better than your opponent is suicide, especially when 90% corki, sivir, cait, graves, or vayne is about 1000000000000000000000000000% better than 90% ezreal.
I dislike this kind of talk when it isn't backed up by math and/or clear scenarios demonstrating the point. As far as I am aware no one, not on these forums or reddit or elsewhere, has actually sat down and methodically done the math on Ezreal (if someone has, awesome! That source should be included in this discussion).
Until said math is done such specific statements are essentially no more than unproven hypotheses. They may be founded in observations and could possibly be correct, but they have yet to been proven or corroborated. Worse, it's these sorts of statements which contribute to the substantial metagame/champion selection inertia we often note and bemoan, as they deter experimentation by asserting authority where there is none. We really should be careful to avoid making them for these reasons.
Generalizations are fine and it isn't wrong to steer inexperienced or competitive players away from Ezreal, but if we're going to start talking about "optimals" we need to avoid presuming we know more than we do.Last edit: 2012-02-01 08:06:59 |
| | Mondays with Monte: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384187 | Schrödinger's Elo |
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| mr_tolkien France. February 01 2012 08:06. Posts 3345 | Profile Blog # |
Ezreal is kind of a hot topic atm. I don't really understand why >.> He is a ranged char with little AD scaling on his skills but decent steroid and... That's it.
He just doesn't fit in the «standard» metagame where one ranged char build AD items that scale very well together and stay in the back right clicking stuff.
He is very funny with a rageblade though, and top :DLast edit: 2012-02-01 08:06:44 |
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| Shikyo Finland. February 01 2012 08:14. Posts 20158 | Profile Blog # |
| im playing with shen and wtf I thought Q heals you if you lasthit with it but it doesnt?= |
| | "I shall wait for you in death's halls, my Love (love love love love~)" |
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| Two_DoWn United States. February 01 2012 08:14. Posts 7270 | Profile Blog # |
On February 01 2012 08:05 Seuss wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 07:34 Two_DoWn wrote:
Optimally played Ezreal is on the same level as any other optimally played carry.
Of course, optimally played Ezreal means no Triforce and no mana items- you hit every skillshot and calculate your mana perfectly so that you are able to get as much damage as possible out of your mana pool.
Which is, frankly, impossible. Not to mention optimal corki, which involves the same hypothetical mana mastery, is still better than optimal Ezreal.
But in a tournament game, relying on being better than your opponent is suicide, especially when 90% corki, sivir, cait, graves, or vayne is about 1000000000000000000000000000% better than 90% ezreal.
I dislike this kind of talk when it isn't backed up by math and/or clear scenarios demonstrating the point. As far as I am aware no one, not on these forums or reddit or elsewhere, has actually sat down and methodically done the math on Ezreal (if someone has, awesome! That source should be included in this discussion). Until said math is done such specific statements are essentially no more than unproven hypotheses. They may be founded in observations and could possibly be correct, but they have yet to been proven or corroborated. Worse, it's these sorts of statements which contribute to the substantial metagame/champion selection inertia we often note and bemoan, as they deter experimentation by asserting authority where there is none. We really should be careful to avoid making them for these reasons. Generalizations are fine and it isn't wrong to steer inexperienced or competitive players away from Ezreal, but if we're going to start talking about "optimals" we need to avoid presuming we know more than we do.
My point was more "it doesnt fucking matter if you try to argue a champ when played optimally just as good as another optimally played champ because it is impossible to actually play that out."
And I dont need mathcraft to actually come to that conclusion. It is physically impossible to play any character in any sort of optimal way. Instead, we are stuck with imperfect demonstrations. And my point was simply imperfect ezreal is inferior currently to imperfect *insert ranged ad here* |
| | Cry havoc and let slip the hogs of war~ |
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| Parnage United States. February 01 2012 08:19. Posts 1821 | Profile Blog # |
Wait a moment, don't we have people who post in these very threads who happen to play on the Chinese servers or at least familiar with what they do over thar in the land of Ezreal is king? Can someone who actually plays on the server he's referencing comment if possible?
I know it's not hard numbers and data but a well voiced and thought out opinion from someone who knows these things would be amazing as I don't think Ezreal is as bad as thought of but I do think he could stand to gain abit of power in an area or two.
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| Slayer91 Ireland. February 01 2012 08:23. Posts 8841 | Profile # |
On February 01 2012 07:00 overt wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 06:08 Slayer91 wrote:
On February 01 2012 03:59 Noocta wrote:
On February 01 2012 03:52 Shiv. wrote:
On February 01 2012 03:48 Noocta wrote:
On February 01 2012 03:24 Two_DoWn wrote:
Ez is also a really weak lane. Any pusher is gonna give him fits, as well as Cait (but cait does do that to every ad carry, so w/e)
Ezreal shit on Cait oO Just play agressive, she don't even do half your damage after lvl 3 lol
If you have no clue what you are talking about, please refrain from talking at all.
Tell me what Cait can do if you jump on her agressively after she use her Q. Specialy since cait players usualy stay near the bottom bush becuase of her passive, so minions are less a problem. But heh.. it can be. I usualy don't have a problem laning against cait as Ezreal. Always felt she's the easiest match up of ez. :/
Ez was always the classic "cait counter" from all top level players. You'll note he stopped being played when cait stopped being picked. I really hate people flaming someone over something that is highly debated as if it's general knowledge.
He wasn't a Cait counter. He can just farm in lane because of the range on his Q. With proper positioning the lane still favors Caitlyn but Ez was capable of farming against a Caitlyn while other champions such as Ashe, Corki, or Vayne had difficulty farming against an aggressive Caitlyn in lane. Cait has a harder time zoning Ez than other ADs because of Q harass and the fact that Ez can still farm with Q. But Ezreal is not a counter to Caitlyn nor does he win the lane and he especially doesn't shit on her as Noocta said. Caitlyn is really strong early so most ADs just had to survive the beginning of the game without being fucked over. Almost every AD can survive that lane if they have a good support player and then when the lane phase is over you have an AD carry that's much stronger than Caitlyn simply because of how bad Caitlyn scales.
What? You can farm with max range Q and then you pick your time to jump on caitlyn. You have insane steriods and way more damage with your Q and R and E base damage there's no possible way she can trade with that.
Also, TONS of people have done the math on triforce being a bad dps item. In fact, everyone KNOWS triforce is a bad dps item, at least past early game. (Sheen proc super good before crit comes into play) however, triforce provides utility like mana, movement speed, a slow, and hp that is hard to account for, and helps synergize with your jumps to clean up fights.Last edit: 2012-02-01 08:24:29 |
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| Offhand United States. February 01 2012 08:23. Posts 1724 | Profile # |
On February 01 2012 07:03 Two_DoWn wrote:
Simple reason I dont actually believe the "Ez is good in china na players are all just dumb" argument morello throws out is that Ez is a noob stomper. Chinese server is fairly new.
I'm sure the fact that he looks like an amalgamation of every anime protagonist ever doesn't hurt either.
Screw EZ being viable or not, he's held onto his 6.3k price tag for waaaaay too long. Longer than any other champ I believe, according to the Riot timeline. I've only ever played him during free week so I'm sure my tear of the goddess into standard AD items builds was suboptimal.Last edit: 2012-02-01 08:29:54 |
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| Requizen United States. February 01 2012 08:24. Posts 7359 | Profile Blog # |
I'm sure we'll see more once we see tourneys with Chinese players.
And it's not like Ez is never used by non-Chinese players. You'll occasionally see him in a tourney, and he's never a 0% win rate, he's just not insta-win like pre-nerf Graves was.
I don't mean to perpetuate the discussion, but when he does see play at the high level and he's not on the Eve tier of "fuck that this champ sucks", it's obvious that he's viable at the very least. |
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| rwrzr United States. February 01 2012 08:26. Posts 1160 | Profile # |
On February 01 2012 08:14 Shikyo wrote:
im playing with shen and wtf I thought Q heals you if you lasthit with it but it doesnt?=
LoL 1 - Shikyo 0
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| fantasticoranges February 01 2012 08:27. Posts 181 | Profile # |
On February 01 2012 08:14 Shikyo wrote:
im playing with shen and wtf I thought Q heals you if you lasthit with it but it doesnt?=
IIRC it gives em a debuff that when you attack them you start healing as well. |
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| sob3k United States. February 01 2012 08:27. Posts 4674 | Profile Blog # |
I was looking today and am dissapointed because there are only 4 really viable champs for a "Spin to Win" team:
Kat
Trynd
Garen
Wukong
Lame. We need spinning AD carry
Perhaps you could run xin or jax but their spinningness in not nearly as good. Maybe Rammus, he spins on a different axis so that might be cool.
EDIT: renekton spins a bitLast edit: 2012-02-01 08:30:12 |
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