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Discussing the controversy and stating your opinions in a constructive way is fine, but there will be bans for any player/organization bashing without anything to substantiate it. | DarkPlasmaBall United States. January 19 2012 01:40. Posts 20102 | Profile Blog # |
On January 19 2012 01:26 iiGreetings wrote:
I hate how TSL always gets fucked by lack of money and sponsors. They make such good players but they leave quickly because of this kinda shit. Shocked they are still 'alive' pardon the pun. Lol
Are you sure that's the case? Earlier in the thread, a few people had been saying that TSL is pretty wealthy as far as Korean teams go.
I don't know what the problem is (not being able to run the business aspects? not having the team feel like a family?), but from what other people are saying, it's not a lack of money. |
| | "Those who can, teach. Those who can't, whine about teachers." ~Me |  |
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 Longshank January 19 2012 01:42. Posts 1311 | Profile # |
| aLive is young and inexperienced in these things, it's easy to mess up. Fnatic got no excuse though. Incredibly poor behaviour from their part. |
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| Asha` United Kingdom. January 19 2012 01:42. Posts 26990 | Profile Blog # |
On January 19 2012 01:40 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 01:26 iiGreetings wrote:
I hate how TSL always gets fucked by lack of money and sponsors. They make such good players but they leave quickly because of this kinda shit. Shocked they are still 'alive' pardon the pun. Lol
Are you sure that's the case? Earlier in the thread, a few people had been saying that TSL is pretty wealthy as far as Korean teams go. I don't know what the problem is (not being able to run the business aspects? not having the team feel like a family?), but from what other people are saying, it's not a lack of money.
I think TSL sound like they are in a reasonable position, but given aLive says he couldn't disagree if people felt he was blinded by money, then it's pretty obvious that the terms foreign teams are capable of offering up to top players is more than most Korean teams can match. |
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| Bijan United States. January 19 2012 01:42. Posts 210 | Profile # |
On January 19 2012 01:40 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 01:26 iiGreetings wrote:
I hate how TSL always gets fucked by lack of money and sponsors. They make such good players but they leave quickly because of this kinda shit. Shocked they are still 'alive' pardon the pun. Lol
Are you sure that's the case? Earlier in the thread, a few people had been saying that TSL is pretty wealthy as far as Korean teams go. I don't know what the problem is (not being able to run the business aspects? not having the team feel like a family?), but from what other people are saying, it's not a lack of money.
I suspect that people say that TSL is one of the wealthier teams because they were one of the first teams with salaried players. I think it unlikely that anyone knows the real financial situation at TSL and most certainly does not know how they relate to other teams. That information is always private. |
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| leandroqm Brazil. January 19 2012 01:43. Posts 778 | Profile # |
argh, I'm sick of this..
Coach Lee, I respect you a lot, but please STOP IT!  |
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| MrCash United States. January 19 2012 01:43. Posts 1498 | Profile # |
On January 19 2012 01:36 NekoFlandre wrote:
Gotta say. I don't really understand why both times it is TSL that has these 'issues'.
Seems more like they are making scape-goats for their players wanting to leave the team and go elsewhere where they could do other things?
Dunno, I find it rather interesting that both times it was a 'backhanded' 'underhanded' deal, conversation behind Coach Lee and with no formal channel though. Didn't think fnatic was like that, then again, didn't think EG was either; and wasn't it proven EG wasn't in the wrong with how they aquired Puma? (Correct me if I am wrong).
Either way, more drama, only in E-Sports do we have this sort of wheeler-dealer backstage issue.
Sometimes I imagine Coach Lee as the platoon trainer from the series Band of Brothers.
He was the best trainer, who developed the best soldiers and the best leaders.
He was hard, he was rough, he was good, and he was hated by his subordinates.
In the series he also was an incompetent leader in the battlefield, so he never got promoted and stayed in low ranks.
I don't have any bases for this expect the drama around coach Lee and his good results.
He did help develop players like Polt, Puma, Alive, Killer and many others.
He has a great reputation from BW and I frequently hear great things about him from major community figures like Artosis.
But it's possible he might not have the capacity to motivate his players to follow him.
Again, 100% speculatory imaginationing.Last edit: 2012-01-19 01:43:53 |
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| DarkPlasmaBall United States. January 19 2012 01:43. Posts 20102 | Profile Blog # |
On January 19 2012 01:34 PcH wrote:
Team Liquid.
WE KNOW DRAMA.
LOL well played. |
| | "Those who can, teach. Those who can't, whine about teachers." ~Me | |
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| moonmeh Korea (South). January 19 2012 01:43. Posts 105 | Profile # |
You have to admit there is something weird about how Alive wanted to leave the team even at the cost of paying the reparation fee.
Also TSL is the only team to have salary isn't it? Wealth isn't a problem |
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| emythrel United Kingdom. January 19 2012 01:43. Posts 2305 | Profile Blog # |
On January 19 2012 01:19 FXOpen wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 01:16 babylon wrote:
On January 19 2012 01:15 FXOpen wrote:
I just don't understand this thread at all. Like.. A player doesnt respect a contract. All of a sudden coach lee is a control freak douche? What?
Really?
<brain explode>
I hope no player breaks my contract, cos then if I fight for my rights, I will apparently be some sort of criminal control freak.
I hope you don't snoop on your player's computers though, Boss.
Nah, I can't read korean.t. If someone wants to disrespect me by not valuing a contract, thats their choice. Most probably I would let them go. But it would be nice to not be poked in the eyes with pitchforks if I did try to fight for my rights.
I feel ya Boss, however it seems that aLive informed his coach a while back that he intended to leave so why is Coach Lee then surprised and angry that aLive explored his options? If this came out of the blue, I could understand but it didn't aLive told Coach Lee that he intended to leave when JYP and Clide left the team.
I don't see what is wrong with talking to another team about a possible move, every single person here over the age of 20 has at some point been employed by one company and been either head hunted by another or decided they wished to leave and started applying for other jobs and doing interviews. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
I don't see how anyone can be pissed off with a player telling a coach "I want to leave" and then talking to another team weeks later. |
| | When there is nothing left to lose but your dignity, it is already gone. | |
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 Mohdoo United States. January 19 2012 01:44. Posts 4014 | Profile # |
| So aLive isn't even on Fnatic anyway? |
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| iky43210 United States. January 19 2012 01:44. Posts 2011 | Profile Blog # |
| isn't TSL the only team with player salaries? |
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| aderum Sweden. January 19 2012 01:44. Posts 1359 | Profile Blog # |
| If its true that he had the computers monitored my respect for coach lee is gone for ever. |
| | Crazy people dont sit around and wonder if they are insane |  |
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| Gladiator6 Sweden. January 19 2012 01:45. Posts 6980 | Profile # |
On January 19 2012 01:43 MrCash wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 01:36 NekoFlandre wrote:
Gotta say. I don't really understand why both times it is TSL that has these 'issues'.
Seems more like they are making scape-goats for their players wanting to leave the team and go elsewhere where they could do other things?
Dunno, I find it rather interesting that both times it was a 'backhanded' 'underhanded' deal, conversation behind Coach Lee and with no formal channel though. Didn't think fnatic was like that, then again, didn't think EG was either; and wasn't it proven EG wasn't in the wrong with how they aquired Puma? (Correct me if I am wrong).
Either way, more drama, only in E-Sports do we have this sort of wheeler-dealer backstage issue.
Sometimes I imagine Coach Lee as the platoon trainer from the series Band of Brothers. He was the best trainer, who developed the best soldiers and the best leaders. He was hard, he was rough, he was good, and he was hated by his subordinates. In the series he also was an incompetent leader in the battlefield, so he never got promoted and stayed in low ranks. I don't have any bases for this expect the drama around coach Lee and his good results. He did help develop players like Polt, Puma, Alive, Killer and many others. He has a great reputation from BW and I frequently hear great things about him from major community figures like Artosis. But it's possible he might not have the capacity to motivate his players to follow him. Again, 100% speculatory imaginationing.
Sounds pretty accurate, but we can't really know from this perspective I think. From reading aLives interview I feel he handled everything incredibly stupid, so know he has to pay the prize. |
| | Flying, sOs, free, Light, Soulkey & ZerO |  |
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| masterbreti Korea (South). January 19 2012 01:48. Posts 2548 | Profile Blog # |
On January 19 2012 01:44 aderum wrote:
If its true that he had the computers monitored my respect for coach lee is gone for ever.
Who says his computer was monitered. Likely the case was the alive was sleeping or something. Coach lee went to grab some replays of Alive to check out and give him some advice on his play. Like coaches are supposed to do. Coach lee randomly stumbles on the skype conversation and gets paranoid. Everything goes south from there.
I don't think Lee monitores the players computers. I think he just happend to find it by doing something else. |
| | Playing sc2 in Korea! Twitter: radrelsc |  |
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 Fionn United States. January 19 2012 01:48. Posts 17232 | Profile Blog # |
"Poor aLive"
"Alive is young it's not his fault"
"Don't fault Alive here."
This is why people don't take e-sports seriously. When a player breaches a freaking contract and people act like it's a-okay because he didn't like his situation, it just shows how far Starcraft 2 still has to come to even be seen as anything more than a hobby. Alive got a place to stay and eat while also getting paid money from the contract he signed. He signed a contract that would last until July.
Shit, Coach Lee even let JYP, Clide and Killer go without any hesitation. No bad drama. Nothing. All three left and we didn't hear any negative talk at all except Coach Lee had a new vision on how he wanted his team to be. Alive treated this situation terribly. |
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| MrCash United States. January 19 2012 01:50. Posts 1498 | Profile # |
On January 19 2012 01:48 masterbreti wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 01:44 aderum wrote:
If its true that he had the computers monitored my respect for coach lee is gone for ever.
Who says his computer was monitered. Likely the case was the alive was sleeping or something. Coach lee went to grab some replays of Alive to check out and give him some advice on his play. Like coaches are supposed to do. Coach lee randomly stumbles on the skype conversation and gets paranoid. Everything goes south from there. I don't think Lee monitores the players computers. I think he just happend to find it by doing something else.
Can a pro player chime in on this for me.
I don't imagine any pro player flying around the world to different houses and various tournaments dragging their PC everywhere.
The way I picture it, alive left, TSL computer is still there.
Are they supposed to format the thing or burn it before touching it again? |
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| lichter January 19 2012 01:50. Posts 6279 | Profile # |
On January 19 2012 01:48 Fionn wrote:
"Poor aLive"
"Alive is young it's not his fault"
"Don't fault Alive here."
This is why people don't take e-sports seriously. When a player breaches a freaking contract and people act like it's a-okay because he didn't like his situation, it just shows how far Starcraft 2 still has to come to even be seen as anything more than a hobby. Alive got a place to stay and eat while also getting paid money from the contract he signed. He signed a contract that would last until July.
Shit, Coach Lee even let JYP, Clide and Killer go without any hesitation. No bad drama. Nothing. All three left and we didn't hear any negative talk at all except Coach Lee had a new vision on how he wanted his team to be. Alive treated this situation terribly.
You'll notice that most of the people saying this have low post counts and (when they do end up saying anything more) don't sound very intelligent -___- '' |
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| JinDesu United States. January 19 2012 01:51. Posts 3408 | Profile Blog # |
On January 19 2012 01:48 Fionn wrote:
"Poor aLive"
"Alive is young it's not his fault"
"Don't fault Alive here."
This is why people don't take e-sports seriously. When a player breaches a freaking contract and people act like it's a-okay because he didn't like his situation, it just shows how far Starcraft 2 still has to come to even be seen as anything more than a hobby. Alive got a place to stay and eat while also getting paid money from the contract he signed. He signed a contract that would last until July.
Shit, Coach Lee even let JYP, Clide and Killer go without any hesitation. No bad drama. Nothing. All three left and we didn't hear any negative talk at all except Coach Lee had a new vision on how he wanted his team to be. Alive treated this situation terribly.
Good post. Coach Lee isn't going after Fnatic for compensation. He is mentioning them because aLive told Coach Lee that Fnatic was speaking to him. Coach Lee is going after aLive, as is appropriate to the contract. |
| | Yargh |  |
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| magicallypuzzled United States. January 19 2012 01:51. Posts 299 | Profile # |
On January 19 2012 01:37 lichter wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 01:26 hyperknight wrote:
On January 19 2012 01:15 FXOpen wrote:
I just don't understand this thread at all. Like.. A player doesnt respect a contract. All of a sudden coach lee is a control freak douche? What?
Really?
<brain explode>
I hope no player breaks my contract, cos then if I fight for my rights, I will apparently be some sort of criminal control freak.
1) You don't own your players. They're free to talk to anybody they like, obviously without breaching their contract. If FXO wanted to recruit IdrA, the logical thing to do would be to approach IdrA first and see if he was interested before approaching the team/manager. I imagine that maybe what have happened when Coach Lee found out. And there's no chance of aLive ever breaching his contract - if he ever wants to leave TSL, fnatic or he will have to pay some sort of penalty (for him to continue playing competitively in Korea) to "buy him out of his contract" which is what every esport team does for any player - irrespective of whether its SC2 or CS or DoTA. 2) Fnatic hasn't signed or come to any official agreement with aLive so far irrespective of whether alive is "sure" that fnatic will pick him up. Fnatic's statement did say that they were trying to negotiate some stuff out with Coach Lee. So Coach Lee broke the fundamental rule of a non-disclosure agreement when talking or negotiating with any business organization. 3) If you snoop on your player's skype convos or facebook msg inboxes, you're always gonna be a criminal control freak.
1.) There are procedures when discussing player contracts. In every professional sport, you approach the team first to inform them of your interest and only then are you allowed to discuss with the player. This is to ensure that there is no "tapping up", or, convincing a player to quit the team (or find a reason to quit the team) or demand to be traded without the original team knowing about the other team's interest. You have no knowledge of contract procedures if you think that teams should be allowed to talk to anyone they please and make offers. It is illegal in every sport if aLive had left TSL for "personal reasons" and then suddenly joined Fnatic (having had a pre-arrangement with Fnatic, if only verbally). Sheesh. 2.) This is true, and this is why aLive was an idiot. Fnatic had promised to sign him through the translator, but without anything on paper Fnatic can still back out because of this shit storm. And the agreement that Fnatic were talking about was about the team house and cooperation between teams, which had already broken down. We do not know if there was a non-disclosure agreement so you can't claim that Coach Lee did anything wrong in revealing it. 3.) Coach Lee's method is unknown, but if he did steal the chat log then his evidence should be inadmissible in courts.
Eh, if you ask me the procedures in an primarily individual sport should be different then one of a team sport. Saying the player shouldn't be told till after the team is unfair to player when he doesn't even need the team to still find good practice partners have a good work ethic so forth.
I agree that contract breaches shouldn't be allowed and i feel like even with out contracts players (most of them if they have some respect, and if they don't teams should really know/expect that in the first place.) will have some loyality for their exisisting team. but i feel strongly that the begining stages of signing a new player should begin and end with the player himself. |
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| blamekilly January 19 2012 01:51. Posts 428 | Profile # |
How come players and teams never learn? You contact the team first before you contact the player. If you're the player, you talk to your team and tell them you want out or wait until your contract expires and then go find a new team. If you do it in any other way, it's called tampering.
ALL MAJOR SPORTS HAVE RULES AND REGULATIONS IN REGARDS TO TAMPERING. They have heavy fines for commiting such acts.
This has happened not once, but twice to Coach Lee. All he wants is his players or other teams to contact him first. And maybe a transfer fee if he's still under contract. |
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