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Discussing the controversy and stating your opinions in a constructive way is fine, but there will be bans for any player/organization bashing without anything to substantiate it. | vitruvia Canada. January 19 2012 02:14. Posts 173 | Profile # |
| 44 pages of comments, shame to us all. |
| | what quote? |  |
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| Chicane United States. January 19 2012 02:17. Posts 6566 | Profile # |
On January 19 2012 02:14 vitruvia wrote:
44 pages of comments, shame to us all.
Why is that a problem? |
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| Kazeyonoma United States. January 19 2012 02:17. Posts 2236 | Profile Blog # |
On January 19 2012 02:12 moonmeh wrote:
Honestly the only fucked up thing Coach Lee did was search Alive's computer without consent and print out the skype conversation. That just seems wrong to me.
where in any official releases was this mentioned.
he has evidence of the chat logs. that's all we have.
how he got it, is never released. another player could've found it. how do we know alive has his own 'personal' computer when players rotate on machines in team houses. another player could've overheard alive's skype convo and brought it to lee's attention.
how are we so quickly to jump on Coach Lee, when we know so little of the situation? |
| | I now have autographs of both BoxeR and NaDa. I can die happy. Lim Yo Hwan and Lee Yun Yeol FIGHTING forever! | |
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| moonmeh Korea (South). January 19 2012 02:18. Posts 105 | Profile # |
On January 19 2012 02:14 vitruvia wrote:
44 pages of comments, shame to us all.
How is it shameful? Sure half of it was people shaming but amidst that there were discussions about what happened and hwo it should be resolved.
Me and some other dude also tried to translate TIG interview for better context.
Must be nice to be on that high horse. What's your opinion on the whole thing? |
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 1sz2sz3sz Andorra. January 19 2012 02:18. Posts 172 | Profile # |
| Coach Lee can do whatever he wants with the computers. I assume he owns all the equipment in the house so its perfectly fine to go through them if he wants to, or monitor them, thats perfectly legal for a business |
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| aderum Sweden. January 19 2012 02:18. Posts 1357 | Profile Blog # |
On January 19 2012 02:17 Chicane wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 02:14 vitruvia wrote:
44 pages of comments, shame to us all.
Why is that a problem?
This is a forum, we dont discuss here.
</sarcrasm> |
| | Crazy people dont sit around and wonder if they are insane |  |
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| moonmeh Korea (South). January 19 2012 02:19. Posts 105 | Profile # |
On January 19 2012 02:17 Kazeyonoma wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 02:12 moonmeh wrote:
Honestly the only fucked up thing Coach Lee did was search Alive's computer without consent and print out the skype conversation. That just seems wrong to me.
where in any official releases was this mentioned. he has evidence of the chat logs. that's all we have. how he got it, is never released. another player could've found it. how do we know alive has his own 'personal' computer when players rotate on machines in team houses. another player could've overheard alive's skype convo and brought it to lee's attention. how are we so quickly to jump on Coach Lee, when we know so little of the situation?
Because on the TIG interview I translated Alive specifically mentioned that the conversation was on his computer and he wonders how Coach Lee got his hands on it
Link for source bro
Later Coach Lee called me over and showed me the printed out copy of the conversation. Seeing as how the conversation was done in Skype on my computer I wonder how he got it. Last edit: 2012-01-19 02:21:06 |
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| CEPEHDREI Germany. January 19 2012 02:19. Posts 1511 | Profile # |
On January 19 2012 02:09 emythrel wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 02:04 jellyjello wrote:
On January 19 2012 02:00 emythrel wrote:
On January 19 2012 01:48 Fionn wrote:
"Poor aLive"
"Alive is young it's not his fault"
"Don't fault Alive here."
This is why people don't take e-sports seriously. When a player breaches a freaking contract and people act like it's a-okay because he didn't like his situation, it just shows how far Starcraft 2 still has to come to even be seen as anything more than a hobby. Alive got a place to stay and eat while also getting paid money from the contract he signed. He signed a contract that would last until July.
Shit, Coach Lee even let JYP, Clide and Killer go without any hesitation. No bad drama. Nothing. All three left and we didn't hear any negative talk at all except Coach Lee had a new vision on how he wanted his team to be. Alive treated this situation terribly.
Unless his contract states that he may not talk to another team about a possible move, he hasn't breached anything. He talked to another team, which in most industries is perfectly legal in the last 6 months of a contract, he already intended to leave before he started talking with Fnatic. Did he handle the situation badly? Yes. Did he do anything illegal by talking to Fnatic? Probably not.
He quit the team while still under contract. That is called a breach of contract.
Well according to aLive, who I will take a his word since he has been quite humble considering the situation, Coach Lee told him that he could leave if he wished at the same time JYP and Clide left. If he has breached his contract by leaving, then thats life, but he didn't breach his contract by talking with Fnatic. Coach Lee was aware aLive was leaving, he told aLive they would do it all nice and civil and then blind sided him on his play day with a negative article. If you tell a player they can leave, then you are giving them permission to break their contract. If aLive can prove this occurred then all the better, as he would no longer have to pay a fee.
yeah to me it feels like coach lee is just trying to make money here |
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| DarkPlasmaBall United States. January 19 2012 02:22. Posts 19998 | Profile Blog # |
On January 19 2012 02:12 moonmeh wrote:
Honestly the only fucked up thing Coach Lee did was search Alive's computer without consent and print out the skype conversation. That just seems wrong to me.
That's pretty messed up; agreed. I'm not incredibly happy about him going off on Fnatic and making his first announcement against everyone before having all the facts- that seemed rather unprofessional- but I suppose that's just because he's used to his players leaving by now and was assuming it was happening again. Not that that justifies his behavior, but I kind of understand his mindset, even if past problems were partially his fault. |
| | "Those who can, teach. Those who can't, whine about teachers." ~Me |  |
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| Kazeyonoma United States. January 19 2012 02:22. Posts 2236 | Profile Blog # |
On January 19 2012 02:19 moonmeh wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 02:17 Kazeyonoma wrote:
On January 19 2012 02:12 moonmeh wrote:
Honestly the only fucked up thing Coach Lee did was search Alive's computer without consent and print out the skype conversation. That just seems wrong to me.
where in any official releases was this mentioned. he has evidence of the chat logs. that's all we have. how he got it, is never released. another player could've found it. how do we know alive has his own 'personal' computer when players rotate on machines in team houses. another player could've overheard alive's skype convo and brought it to lee's attention. how are we so quickly to jump on Coach Lee, when we know so little of the situation?
Because on the TIG interview I translated Alive specifically mentioned that the conversation was on his computer and he wonders how Coach Lee got his hands on it Link for source bro
'his computer' is kind of vague. Does he own his own PC in the team house? Or is it as someone above mentioned, that the entire team house is likely funded by Coach Lee, and he therefore owns the equipment, giving him the right to look at whatever he wants.
Guess what, maybe in europe it's illegal to search an employee's computer, but in the US, if there is reason for suspicion, an employer can search, and even dig through logs of your activity to see if there is reason for termination for breach of contract or employment obligations. That means if you're looking at kiddy porn on your PC, and an employer hears you might be doing that on work computers... they can search your PC, and if they find it, it IS evidence to be used to terminate you. |
| | I now have autographs of both BoxeR and NaDa. I can die happy. Lim Yo Hwan and Lee Yun Yeol FIGHTING forever! | |
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| Vansetsu United States. January 19 2012 02:25. Posts 1119 | Profile Blog # |
My pointless take on the actual drama/situation
+ Show Spoiler +
Hmm, such a confusing issue. On one hand, TSL's roster is continuously looking in poorer and poorer shape, generally due to players leaving the team (and being picked up by other teams, though all the fuss is made about foreigner acquisitions). TSL's coach seems to be quite unhappy when these kind of things happen, as "foreigners" tend to never seem to do things "properly". One thing that stood out to me, was Rekrul's comment about him getting very upset about who get's to sit in player areas ect. That kind of comment makes me think Coach Lee is a very principled man, with particular bias to his principles (not saying they are good or bad, just that they are his own, and not necessarily "Korean values" or "self evident values").
On the other hand, foreigner interests really seem to like to stick their hand in the cookie jar that is Korean grown talent, rather than improving their own talent like the Koreans do. It's certainly true these translators don't just magically run into these players by chance and become friends.
Regardless, these topics are always silly to argue about conclusively, and the only reason to ever really put any fuss into them is if you really like or don't like the current trend and/or method of player transfers. Putting any amount of detective work into a particular acquisitions itself is just kind of dumb.
The real story you ask? It should be obvious to you all by now.
The alarming increase in translator-related-drama.
Milkis says some silly stuff...
reis takes part in making MC loose the better part of his handle...
this fnatic guy makes a friend or something without permission....
--Anyways, tonight I am going to put all my discarded Troll teeth under the pillow for the Troll Fairy to come, and hopefully deliver me a front page article on TL in about 2 weeks saying that John The Translator has joined some Korean team and has poached one of our top foreign players.
P.S. Bonus points to you Troll Fairy if this happens and the foreigner team throws a fit about not following western traditions of indirectly befriending players discretely. |
| | Only by overcoming many obstacles does a river become - デイヴィ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ド |  |
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| Flare23 United States. January 19 2012 02:25. Posts 27 | Profile # |
On January 19 2012 02:17 Kazeyonoma wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 02:12 moonmeh wrote:
Honestly the only fucked up thing Coach Lee did was search Alive's computer without consent and print out the skype conversation. That just seems wrong to me.
where in any official releases was this mentioned. he has evidence of the chat logs. that's all we have. how he got it, is never released. another player could've found it. how do we know alive has his own 'personal' computer when players rotate on machines in team houses. another player could've overheard alive's skype convo and brought it to lee's attention. how are we so quickly to jump on Coach Lee, when we know so little of the situation?
I work as a lawyer in corporate compliance and investigations and fyi, as long as he computers belong to TSL, coach lee is within his rights to do whatever he wants to the computer, including looking in to it. And guess what, if your company is big enough, you are probably being monitored too. You just don't know it. This is common practice for most companies. |
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| ballasdontcry Canada. January 19 2012 02:26. Posts 541 | Profile # |
On January 19 2012 02:22 Kazeyonoma wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 02:19 moonmeh wrote:
On January 19 2012 02:17 Kazeyonoma wrote:
On January 19 2012 02:12 moonmeh wrote:
Honestly the only fucked up thing Coach Lee did was search Alive's computer without consent and print out the skype conversation. That just seems wrong to me.
where in any official releases was this mentioned. he has evidence of the chat logs. that's all we have. how he got it, is never released. another player could've found it. how do we know alive has his own 'personal' computer when players rotate on machines in team houses. another player could've overheard alive's skype convo and brought it to lee's attention. how are we so quickly to jump on Coach Lee, when we know so little of the situation?
Because on the TIG interview I translated Alive specifically mentioned that the conversation was on his computer and he wonders how Coach Lee got his hands on it Link for source bro
'his computer' is kind of vague. Does he own his own PC in the team house? Or is it as someone above mentioned, that the entire team house is likely funded by Coach Lee, and he therefore owns the equipment, giving him the right to look at whatever he wants. Guess what, maybe in europe it's illegal to search an employee's computer, but in the US, if there is reason for suspicion, an employer can search, and even dig through logs of your activity to see if there is reason for termination for breach of contract or employment obligations. That means if you're looking at kiddy porn on your PC, and an employer hears you might be doing that on work computers... they can search your PC, and if they find it, it IS evidence to be used to terminate you.
alive/TSL's computer is in korea, so how is any of what you just said relevant?
looking at child porn is a crime in most of North America, and ISPs are bound by law to catch that type of thing, so I think that's a bit extreme of a comparison to use against online chat logs.Last edit: 2012-01-19 02:27:40 |
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| WigglingSquid January 19 2012 02:26. Posts 3262 | Profile # |
On January 19 2012 02:25 Flare23 wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 02:17 Kazeyonoma wrote:
On January 19 2012 02:12 moonmeh wrote:
Honestly the only fucked up thing Coach Lee did was search Alive's computer without consent and print out the skype conversation. That just seems wrong to me.
where in any official releases was this mentioned. he has evidence of the chat logs. that's all we have. how he got it, is never released. another player could've found it. how do we know alive has his own 'personal' computer when players rotate on machines in team houses. another player could've overheard alive's skype convo and brought it to lee's attention. how are we so quickly to jump on Coach Lee, when we know so little of the situation?
I work as a lawyer in corporate compliance and investigations and fyi, as long as he computers belong to TSL, coach lee is within his rights to do whatever he wants to the computer, including looking in to it. And guess what, if your company is big enough, you are probably being monitored too. You just don't know it. This is common practice for most companies.
You certainly seem to be familiar with korean law. |
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| MrCash United States. January 19 2012 02:27. Posts 1498 | Profile # |
On January 19 2012 02:19 CEPEHDREI wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 02:09 emythrel wrote:
On January 19 2012 02:04 jellyjello wrote:
On January 19 2012 02:00 emythrel wrote:
On January 19 2012 01:48 Fionn wrote:
"Poor aLive"
"Alive is young it's not his fault"
"Don't fault Alive here."
This is why people don't take e-sports seriously. When a player breaches a freaking contract and people act like it's a-okay because he didn't like his situation, it just shows how far Starcraft 2 still has to come to even be seen as anything more than a hobby. Alive got a place to stay and eat while also getting paid money from the contract he signed. He signed a contract that would last until July.
Shit, Coach Lee even let JYP, Clide and Killer go without any hesitation. No bad drama. Nothing. All three left and we didn't hear any negative talk at all except Coach Lee had a new vision on how he wanted his team to be. Alive treated this situation terribly.
Unless his contract states that he may not talk to another team about a possible move, he hasn't breached anything. He talked to another team, which in most industries is perfectly legal in the last 6 months of a contract, he already intended to leave before he started talking with Fnatic. Did he handle the situation badly? Yes. Did he do anything illegal by talking to Fnatic? Probably not.
He quit the team while still under contract. That is called a breach of contract.
Well according to aLive, who I will take a his word since he has been quite humble considering the situation, Coach Lee told him that he could leave if he wished at the same time JYP and Clide left. If he has breached his contract by leaving, then thats life, but he didn't breach his contract by talking with Fnatic. Coach Lee was aware aLive was leaving, he told aLive they would do it all nice and civil and then blind sided him on his play day with a negative article. If you tell a player they can leave, then you are giving them permission to break their contract. If aLive can prove this occurred then all the better, as he would no longer have to pay a fee.
yeah to me it feels like coach lee is just trying to make money here
Yes, aLive is an innocent butterfly who holds no value to money and only wishes to be free.
/sLast edit: 2012-01-19 02:27:22 |
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| farvacola United States. January 19 2012 02:29. Posts 5472 | Profile Blog # |
On January 19 2012 02:26 WigglingSquid wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 02:25 Flare23 wrote:
On January 19 2012 02:17 Kazeyonoma wrote:
On January 19 2012 02:12 moonmeh wrote:
Honestly the only fucked up thing Coach Lee did was search Alive's computer without consent and print out the skype conversation. That just seems wrong to me.
where in any official releases was this mentioned. he has evidence of the chat logs. that's all we have. how he got it, is never released. another player could've found it. how do we know alive has his own 'personal' computer when players rotate on machines in team houses. another player could've overheard alive's skype convo and brought it to lee's attention. how are we so quickly to jump on Coach Lee, when we know so little of the situation?
I work as a lawyer in corporate compliance and investigations and fyi, as long as he computers belong to TSL, coach lee is within his rights to do whatever he wants to the computer, including looking in to it. And guess what, if your company is big enough, you are probably being monitored too. You just don't know it. This is common practice for most companies.
You certainly seem to be familiar with korean law.
And he also conveniently knows everything in regards to the type of of organization TSL is, its legal obligations and expectancies, and how workplace security in Korea works. TL's bustling cabinet of brilliant international lawyers never fails to impress. Btw, I'm the attorney general, I would know. /sarcasm |
| | "Hey colaboy, you made the same exact post to me in the 2012 election thread. I am so glad that TL has thread constables!" | |
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| jellyjello Korea (South). January 19 2012 02:29. Posts 447 | Profile # |
On January 19 2012 02:12 moonmeh wrote:
Honestly the only fucked up thing Coach Lee did was search Alive's computer without consent and print out the skype conversation. That just seems wrong to me.
Well, I don't think it's his own personal computer, as in he bought them with his own money. It was probably provided by one of their sponsors when the team was formed, and aLive was given one of the computers to use as if his own. Secondly, there is no evidence (yet) of Coach Lee snooping around aLive's computer. All it said was Lee showed up with a printed copy of skype conversation. |
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 Jibba United States. January 19 2012 02:30. Posts 20170 | Profile Blog # |
On January 19 2012 01:48 Fionn wrote:
"Poor aLive"
"Alive is young it's not his fault"
"Don't fault Alive here."
This is why people don't take e-sports seriously. When a player breaches a freaking contract and people act like it's a-okay because he didn't like his situation, it just shows how far Starcraft 2 still has to come to even be seen as anything more than a hobby. Alive got a place to stay and eat while also getting paid money from the contract he signed. He signed a contract that would last until July.
Shit, Coach Lee even let JYP, Clide and Killer go without any hesitation. No bad drama. Nothing. All three left and we didn't hear any negative talk at all except Coach Lee had a new vision on how he wanted his team to be. Alive treated this situation terribly.
There was no breach of contract. aLive was in private discussions with fnatic and Lee found out before anything happened, through unknown means. According to aLive they talked it out and it had been settled with a reparation fee, and then Lee made this public.
Personally, I think it was inappropriate to begin the discussion behind Lee's back, but whether the plan was to break the contract or not is unknown since they could've been preparing an offer for the future. Beyond that, Lee is just ...
Trust the Cracken.Last edit: 2012-01-19 02:36:12 |
| | Now I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat |  |
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| moonmeh Korea (South). January 19 2012 02:30. Posts 105 | Profile # |
On January 19 2012 02:22 Kazeyonoma wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 02:19 moonmeh wrote:
On January 19 2012 02:17 Kazeyonoma wrote:
On January 19 2012 02:12 moonmeh wrote:
Honestly the only fucked up thing Coach Lee did was search Alive's computer without consent and print out the skype conversation. That just seems wrong to me.
where in any official releases was this mentioned. he has evidence of the chat logs. that's all we have. how he got it, is never released. another player could've found it. how do we know alive has his own 'personal' computer when players rotate on machines in team houses. another player could've overheard alive's skype convo and brought it to lee's attention. how are we so quickly to jump on Coach Lee, when we know so little of the situation?
Because on the TIG interview I translated Alive specifically mentioned that the conversation was on his computer and he wonders how Coach Lee got his hands on it Link for source bro
'his computer' is kind of vague. Does he own his own PC in the team house? Or is it as someone above mentioned, that the entire team house is likely funded by Coach Lee, and he therefore owns the equipment, giving him the right to look at whatever he wants. Guess what, maybe in europe it's illegal to search an employee's computer, but in the US, if there is reason for suspicion, an employer can search, and even dig through logs of your activity to see if there is reason for termination for breach of contract or employment obligations. That means if you're looking at kiddy porn on your PC, and an employer hears you might be doing that on work computers... they can search your PC, and if they find it, it IS evidence to be used to terminate you.
True enough, the statement is such that Alive doesn't necessary own the computer. However that doesn't change anything as how does that it make it right? You are invading someone else's privacy and looking at message logs is just wrong. Sure you may be in your rights but it's not morally right.
Also why the hell are you mentioning europe when the whole thing is based in Korea?
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| moonmeh Korea (South). January 19 2012 02:32. Posts 105 | Profile # |
On January 19 2012 02:29 jellyjello wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 02:12 moonmeh wrote:
Honestly the only fucked up thing Coach Lee did was search Alive's computer without consent and print out the skype conversation. That just seems wrong to me.
Well, I don't think it's his own personal computer, as in he bought them with his own money. It was probably provided by one of their sponsors when the team was formed, and aLive was given one of the computers to use as if his own. Secondly, there is no evidence (yet) of Coach Lee snooping around aLive's computer. All it said was Lee showed up with a printed copy of skype conversation.
Well if the conversation is logged in aLive's computer, and his computer only and aLive himself did not print a copy and Coach Lee come up with a copy of the conversation what would you conclude?
Sure there is not hard evidence but there is no way Coach Lee could have got his hands on that without actively searching for it. Honestly that's kinda scary paranoia. |
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