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 Carnivorous Sheep January 20 2012 12:56. Posts 8736 | Profile Blog # |
On January 20 2012 12:52 sob3k wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 12:42 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
On January 20 2012 12:36 sob3k wrote:
On January 20 2012 12:16 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
On January 20 2012 11:41 Alaric wrote:
Also fast AP allows you to instaclear waves earlier — and since it's a line AoE, it's even better. Morgana, Gragas, etc. have nothing on you when it comes to instaclearing.
What lol? your line AoE doesn't do enough damage to instaclear and you're not gonna have your augment in lane. Gragas and Morgana actually can instaclear with AoE since your line is not gonna hit all 6 enemy creeps except in very rare waves where pathing/aggro lines them up. Its cooldown is also high enough that you can't both clear and harass with it so you're forced to choose ;d Unless your enemy is terrible at positioning and stands in the same line as his minions zz, even then the line is pretty narrow and any competent mid should be getting hit by too many Es...
E should easily instaclear entire waves late, and by the time you get your augment it should clear melees with an AA or creep damage. I get all the ranged creeps and at least two of the melees with a diagonal shot every time I use it post aug, as one of the melee usually peels off. You can also instaclear the incoming wave while they are lined up in the exact same way sivir does. Have you played Viktor? E is probably the best minion clearing spell in the game. Why on earth would they let you just walk up to them? If you dont use it from absolute max range its also one of the hardest skillshots to dodge in the game, as you cant tell what direction its going to go when cast. You can also almost always hit at least some creeps with every hit even if harassing, as you get to choose the vector, no matter where they stand you can put a line through two points.
Then they walk cause they're paying a modicum of attention and your E misses. It's a skillshot, and every single skillshot boils down to both your skill and the opponent's skill in approximate equal parts. Skillshots are inherently harder and less reliable than a point and click, and a point and click will hit EVERY SINGLE TIME, and Q's uptime is so much higher than E with a 5 vs. 9 second cooldown, with only slightly less damage, that you need to hit like 80-90% of your Es to do equal damage as Q, and that's just unrealistic for a skillshot in lane against a not totally braindead opponent. If your opponent is so much worse than you that every skillshot hits, well, it really doesn't matter what you max or what you build. And no I haven't played Viktor I just feel like theorycrafting and pulling shit out of my ass cause I'm bored WTF kind of stupid question is that why would you comment in a champion thread if you haven't played him?
You will never hit mid champs with Q, because its range is 600. Annie outranges you. I actually cant even think of a spell other than Sions Q that doesn't outrange you. How on earth are you going to get in range? I ask if you'd played Viktor because using primarily Q Mid makes no sense whatsoever, you will literally never be able to use it against a decent player, and everytime you go in to try they will be guaranteed a free hit. You will be out of lane in 40 seconds. It also doesn't matter if you hit every single Q every cooldown for massive DPS if every time you go in to trade you take twice that much damage, which is exactly what would happen if you actually got in range to use it.
you trade aggressively at 1-3 when your shield blocks minion damage and minion damage still matters;
annie outranges you by like...<50 i think its 25 aka doesn't really make a difference
everything that outranges you is a skillshot just dodge/stay behind minions. else that is point and click has comparable range
Q is infinitely better than E in lane zz. It also outdamages E until you get augment which is not gonna be for a while if you're also getting 2 rings. If you're rushing augment then you have no lane power.Last edit: 2012-01-20 13:00:48 |
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| jcarlsoniv United States. January 20 2012 13:05. Posts 4086 | Profile Blog # |
On January 20 2012 12:11 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
E costs 110 mana vs. 65, does 65 + .25AP more damage (with augment), and is on a 9 second ooldown vs. a 5 second cooldown. Only favorable comparison is its range but it's also dodgeable as opposed to Q. No reason to max E in lane over Q.
you shouldn't be using q shield to block enemy counters but you can aggressively auto attack in early levels and shield will block a bunch of minion damage and you'll come out ahead in trade. E doesn't give that. Q wins lanes E doesn't do shit until team fights ;d
Your argument makes 0 sense. You are comparing the lvl 5 costs for both moves. However, we're debating which move to max first in lane. Why would you look at your lvl 13 Q and E costs when you won't still be stuck in lane at that point.
Their mana costs are both comparable IN COMPARISON WITH THEIR COOLDOWNS. Lvl 1 Q costs 45 mana on a 9 sec CD (costs 5 mana per CD second). Lvl 1 E costs 70 mana on a 13 sec CD (costs ~5.3 mana per CD second). Both of them cost more mana as you level them up.
Why would a single target, 600 range spell (that only shields you on return, which is too late when laning against mages) be better than a line nuke with a potential 1200 range (700 cast range + 500 laser area)?
E has a slightly smaller (read: 10 damage) base damage than Q, but has .05 better scaling (.7 vs .65). Going 2 Drings while maxing E, and then getting your augment, which you should get by lvl 9 if you're halfway decent at farming, gives you a massive amount of damage.
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that by lvl 9, you have farmed 2000 gold. With this, I will have 2 DRings and my Death Augment. My E is rank 5. At this point, from Runes and Masteries, I have 26.37 AP. With the money I've farmed, I can afford 2 DRings and my Augment, giving me 107.1 AP, for a total of 133.47 AP.
Right now, my E does 250 + (.7 * 133.47) = 343.43 damage Keep in mind, that this is in a line, so it can hit multiple targets. On top of this, with the augment, all enemies hit will receive 75 + (.21 * 133.47) = 103 damage over 4 seconds.
Now, ok, let's look at your build. Same level, same farm, same runes and masteries. With your 2000g, all you've been able to buy is a catalyst. So all you've got for AP is your innate 26.37 AP.
Your Q does 260 + (.65 * 26.37) = 277.14 damage to a single target. You then receive a shield for 104 + (.26 * 26.37) = 110 damage block, which you will usually receive after you've eaten the majority of your opponents attacks.
+ Show Spoiler +Let's pretend We're using my item build and I max Q first. It will do 260 + (.65 * 133.47) = 346.76 damage to a single target, which is STILL less than E will do when you factor in the DoT that E applies.
So now let's compare. With my build and skill order, I have a max 1200 range ability that can hit multiple targets and will do 446.43 damage to all enemies it hits. With your build and skill order, you have a single target ability that deals 277.14 damage to one enemy at 600 range. Yes, Q is 4 seconds shorter on cooldown, but if you have blue buff, the difference is reduced to 3 seconds.
You also advocate getting the Death Augment. Why would you not take advantage of the massive early-mid game benefit this gives you? You know what's also fun about your E? A 1200 range line nuke gives you MASSIVE control over dragon. Having a 600 range single target nuke as your main damage spell at that point of the game is just begging to get raped by the enemy team.
Last edit: 2012-01-20 13:08:23 |
| | Soniv ||| @jcarlsoniv ||| @TLCastingGolems ||| Join the Glorious Evolution. What's your favorite aminal, a bear? Death is in bloom. ||| The Big Golem |
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| sob3k United States. January 20 2012 13:12. Posts 4673 | Profile Blog # |
On January 20 2012 12:56 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 12:52 sob3k wrote:
On January 20 2012 12:42 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
On January 20 2012 12:36 sob3k wrote:
On January 20 2012 12:16 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
On January 20 2012 11:41 Alaric wrote:
Also fast AP allows you to instaclear waves earlier — and since it's a line AoE, it's even better. Morgana, Gragas, etc. have nothing on you when it comes to instaclearing.
What lol? your line AoE doesn't do enough damage to instaclear and you're not gonna have your augment in lane. Gragas and Morgana actually can instaclear with AoE since your line is not gonna hit all 6 enemy creeps except in very rare waves where pathing/aggro lines them up. Its cooldown is also high enough that you can't both clear and harass with it so you're forced to choose ;d Unless your enemy is terrible at positioning and stands in the same line as his minions zz, even then the line is pretty narrow and any competent mid should be getting hit by too many Es...
E should easily instaclear entire waves late, and by the time you get your augment it should clear melees with an AA or creep damage. I get all the ranged creeps and at least two of the melees with a diagonal shot every time I use it post aug, as one of the melee usually peels off. You can also instaclear the incoming wave while they are lined up in the exact same way sivir does. Have you played Viktor? E is probably the best minion clearing spell in the game. Why on earth would they let you just walk up to them? If you dont use it from absolute max range its also one of the hardest skillshots to dodge in the game, as you cant tell what direction its going to go when cast. You can also almost always hit at least some creeps with every hit even if harassing, as you get to choose the vector, no matter where they stand you can put a line through two points.
Then they walk cause they're paying a modicum of attention and your E misses. It's a skillshot, and every single skillshot boils down to both your skill and the opponent's skill in approximate equal parts. Skillshots are inherently harder and less reliable than a point and click, and a point and click will hit EVERY SINGLE TIME, and Q's uptime is so much higher than E with a 5 vs. 9 second cooldown, with only slightly less damage, that you need to hit like 80-90% of your Es to do equal damage as Q, and that's just unrealistic for a skillshot in lane against a not totally braindead opponent. If your opponent is so much worse than you that every skillshot hits, well, it really doesn't matter what you max or what you build. And no I haven't played Viktor I just feel like theorycrafting and pulling shit out of my ass cause I'm bored WTF kind of stupid question is that why would you comment in a champion thread if you haven't played him?
You will never hit mid champs with Q, because its range is 600. Annie outranges you. I actually cant even think of a spell other than Sions Q that doesn't outrange you. How on earth are you going to get in range? I ask if you'd played Viktor because using primarily Q Mid makes no sense whatsoever, you will literally never be able to use it against a decent player, and everytime you go in to try they will be guaranteed a free hit. You will be out of lane in 40 seconds. It also doesn't matter if you hit every single Q every cooldown for massive DPS if every time you go in to trade you take twice that much damage, which is exactly what would happen if you actually got in range to use it.
you trade aggressively at 1-3 when your shield blocks minion damage and minion damage still matters; annie outranges you by like...<50 i think its 25 aka doesn't really make a difference everything that outranges you is a skillshot just dodge/stay behind minions. else that is point and click has comparable range Q is infinitely better than E in lane zz. It also outdamages E until you get augment which is not gonna be for a while if you're also getting 2 rings. If you're rushing augment then you have no lane power.
Thats flat out not true.
Fiddle: Outranges you with targeted spell by 150
Cass: Outranges you with targeted spell by 100
Anivia: Outranges you with targeted spell by 50
Ahri: Outranges you with targeted spell by 200
Leblanc: Outranges you with targeted spell by 100
Malzahar: Outranges you with targeted spell by 50
Ryze: Outranges you with 3 targeted spell by 75/25/75
Soraka: Outranges you with targeted spell by 125
Zilean: Outranges you with targeted spell by 100
Kassadin: Outranges you with targeted spell by 50
Veigar: Outranges you with targeted spell by 50
And if you think you can dodge all their skillshots while running towards someone at 600 range....its ridiculous
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| Carnivorous Sheep January 20 2012 14:14. Posts 8736 | Profile Blog # |
K I'm not convinced but I go play a few games with E max/Dring into Death Augment and see how it goes.
edit: first game laned vs. a vlad. shit's op. was doing fine early, but e and q cooldown both too high to threaten any kills. had a chance at 6 but fuckd it up and we just traded summoners, then his cooldowns +revolver kicked in and it was farm fest. lost tower. didn't see it goign tha tmuch differently if i went q max. try again
game 2 vs. veigar, eqqwq, then maxed e. 3-0 in lane, FB then double when jungler came to gank. Q definitely better for trades vs. veigar he didnt really have any answer to me walking up and q ing him in the face. veigar longer range doesnt mean much when he has to q creeps and i just walk up during cd and he is hesitant to burn mana on stun. e'ed a bit at level 1 and it pushed the lane too much, when i stopped e'ing i could zone him much easier after the FB. started leveling e as iw as getting near to getting augment and teamfights were starting. lost game though cause 2 separate dcs on team TOUGH LIFE
game 3 vs lb eqqw max e. Early Q helped a lot to shield damage I still think I could aggressively trade with her at 1-3 and got a big advantage and snowballed. I had a half wave advantage though and was 2 when she was 1 because of level 1 shenanigans, but in her favor was she had their first blue. still crushed though, went dring x2 into mercs into death augment.Last edit: 2012-01-20 18:17:11 |
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| Carnivorous Sheep January 20 2012 17:54. Posts 8736 | Profile Blog # |
On January 20 2012 13:05 jcarlsoniv wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 12:11 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
E costs 110 mana vs. 65, does 65 + .25AP more damage (with augment), and is on a 9 second ooldown vs. a 5 second cooldown. Only favorable comparison is its range but it's also dodgeable as opposed to Q. No reason to max E in lane over Q.
you shouldn't be using q shield to block enemy counters but you can aggressively auto attack in early levels and shield will block a bunch of minion damage and you'll come out ahead in trade. E doesn't give that. Q wins lanes E doesn't do shit until team fights ;d
Your argument makes 0 sense. You are comparing the lvl 5 costs for both moves. However, we're debating which move to max first in lane. Why would you look at your lvl 13 Q and E costs when you won't still be stuck in lane at that point. Their mana costs are both comparable IN COMPARISON WITH THEIR COOLDOWNS. Lvl 1 Q costs 45 mana on a 9 sec CD (costs 5 mana per CD second). Lvl 1 E costs 70 mana on a 13 sec CD (costs ~5.3 mana per CD second). Both of them cost more mana as you level them up. Why would a single target, 600 range spell (that only shields you on return, which is too late when laning against mages) be better than a line nuke with a potential 1200 range (700 cast range + 500 laser area)? E has a slightly smaller (read: 10 damage) base damage than Q, but has .05 better scaling (.7 vs .65). Going 2 Drings while maxing E, and then getting your augment, which you should get by lvl 9 if you're halfway decent at farming, gives you a massive amount of damage. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that by lvl 9, you have farmed 2000 gold. With this, I will have 2 DRings and my Death Augment. My E is rank 5. At this point, from Runes and Masteries, I have 26.37 AP. With the money I've farmed, I can afford 2 DRings and my Augment, giving me 107.1 AP, for a total of 133.47 AP. Right now, my E does 250 + (.7 * 133.47) = 343.43 damage Keep in mind, that this is in a line, so it can hit multiple targets. On top of this, with the augment, all enemies hit will receive 75 + (.21 * 133.47) = 103 damage over 4 seconds. Now, ok, let's look at your build. Same level, same farm, same runes and masteries. With your 2000g, all you've been able to buy is a catalyst. So all you've got for AP is your innate 26.37 AP. Your Q does 260 + (.65 * 26.37) = 277.14 damage to a single target. You then receive a shield for 104 + (.26 * 26.37) = 110 damage block, which you will usually receive after you've eaten the majority of your opponents attacks. + Show Spoiler +Let's pretend We're using my item build and I max Q first. It will do 260 + (.65 * 133.47) = 346.76 damage to a single target, which is STILL less than E will do when you factor in the DoT that E applies. So now let's compare. With my build and skill order, I have a max 1200 range ability that can hit multiple targets and will do 446.43 damage to all enemies it hits. With your build and skill order, you have a single target ability that deals 277.14 damage to one enemy at 600 range. Yes, Q is 4 seconds shorter on cooldown, but if you have blue buff, the difference is reduced to 3 seconds. You also advocate getting the Death Augment. Why would you not take advantage of the massive early-mid game benefit this gives you? You know what's also fun about your E? A 1200 range line nuke gives you MASSIVE control over dragon. Having a 600 range single target nuke as your main damage spell at that point of the game is just begging to get raped by the enemy team.
Yes 2 rings and augment does more raw damage probably if you're not Qing the instant it comes off CD, but catalyst gives benefits of HP + hp/mana regen in lane. I also have another ~700 gold I can spend on stuff.
Also RoA I think just helps more in the long run as the game goes on. Your E is the only long range spell, Viktor's range on Q and W are pretty short and you'll definitely be exposed in team fights and the extra hp helps. Also its more AP in long run which scales better into mid-late game. Catalyst is still a good laning item, it trades straight up damage trades for a more consistent laning phase imo.
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| jcarlsoniv United States. January 20 2012 21:31. Posts 4086 | Profile Blog # |
On January 20 2012 14:14 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
K I'm not convinced but I go play a few games with E max/Dring into Death Augment and see how it goes.
edit: first game laned vs. a vlad. shit's op. was doing fine early, but e and q cooldown both too high to threaten any kills. had a chance at 6 but fuckd it up and we just traded summoners, then his cooldowns +revolver kicked in and it was farm fest. lost tower. didn't see it goign tha tmuch differently if i went q max. try again
game 2 vs. veigar, eqqwq, then maxed e. 3-0 in lane, FB then double when jungler came to gank. Q definitely better for trades vs. veigar he didnt really have any answer to me walking up and q ing him in the face. veigar longer range doesnt mean much when he has to q creeps and i just walk up during cd and he is hesitant to burn mana on stun. e'ed a bit at level 1 and it pushed the lane too much, when i stopped e'ing i could zone him much easier after the FB. started leveling e as iw as getting near to getting augment and teamfights were starting. lost game though cause 2 separate dcs on team TOUGH LIFE
game 3 vs lb eqqw max e. Early Q helped a lot to shield damage I still think I could aggressively trade with her at 1-3 and got a big advantage and snowballed. I had a half wave advantage though and was 2 when she was 1 because of level 1 shenanigans, but in her favor was she had their first blue. still crushed though, went dring x2 into mercs into death augment.
So...you said you're going to try maxing E, and you completely disregard it and get a few points in Q before maxing E.
Game 1: I said before that I haven't laned vs. new Vlad, but if you said you had a chance to take your advantage at 6 but missed it, then that's your fault for not capitalizing.
Games 2 + 3: Sounds like you were laning against people who have no idea how to trade damage. If you're getting into 600 range to use your Q, you should be eating punishment for it before you get your shield.
On January 20 2012 17:54 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 13:05 jcarlsoniv wrote:
On January 20 2012 12:11 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
E costs 110 mana vs. 65, does 65 + .25AP more damage (with augment), and is on a 9 second ooldown vs. a 5 second cooldown. Only favorable comparison is its range but it's also dodgeable as opposed to Q. No reason to max E in lane over Q.
you shouldn't be using q shield to block enemy counters but you can aggressively auto attack in early levels and shield will block a bunch of minion damage and you'll come out ahead in trade. E doesn't give that. Q wins lanes E doesn't do shit until team fights ;d
Your argument makes 0 sense. You are comparing the lvl 5 costs for both moves. However, we're debating which move to max first in lane. Why would you look at your lvl 13 Q and E costs when you won't still be stuck in lane at that point. Their mana costs are both comparable IN COMPARISON WITH THEIR COOLDOWNS. Lvl 1 Q costs 45 mana on a 9 sec CD (costs 5 mana per CD second). Lvl 1 E costs 70 mana on a 13 sec CD (costs ~5.3 mana per CD second). Both of them cost more mana as you level them up. Why would a single target, 600 range spell (that only shields you on return, which is too late when laning against mages) be better than a line nuke with a potential 1200 range (700 cast range + 500 laser area)? E has a slightly smaller (read: 10 damage) base damage than Q, but has .05 better scaling (.7 vs .65). Going 2 Drings while maxing E, and then getting your augment, which you should get by lvl 9 if you're halfway decent at farming, gives you a massive amount of damage. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that by lvl 9, you have farmed 2000 gold. With this, I will have 2 DRings and my Death Augment. My E is rank 5. At this point, from Runes and Masteries, I have 26.37 AP. With the money I've farmed, I can afford 2 DRings and my Augment, giving me 107.1 AP, for a total of 133.47 AP. Right now, my E does 250 + (.7 * 133.47) = 343.43 damage Keep in mind, that this is in a line, so it can hit multiple targets. On top of this, with the augment, all enemies hit will receive 75 + (.21 * 133.47) = 103 damage over 4 seconds. Now, ok, let's look at your build. Same level, same farm, same runes and masteries. With your 2000g, all you've been able to buy is a catalyst. So all you've got for AP is your innate 26.37 AP. Your Q does 260 + (.65 * 26.37) = 277.14 damage to a single target. You then receive a shield for 104 + (.26 * 26.37) = 110 damage block, which you will usually receive after you've eaten the majority of your opponents attacks. + Show Spoiler +Let's pretend We're using my item build and I max Q first. It will do 260 + (.65 * 133.47) = 346.76 damage to a single target, which is STILL less than E will do when you factor in the DoT that E applies. So now let's compare. With my build and skill order, I have a max 1200 range ability that can hit multiple targets and will do 446.43 damage to all enemies it hits. With your build and skill order, you have a single target ability that deals 277.14 damage to one enemy at 600 range. Yes, Q is 4 seconds shorter on cooldown, but if you have blue buff, the difference is reduced to 3 seconds. You also advocate getting the Death Augment. Why would you not take advantage of the massive early-mid game benefit this gives you? You know what's also fun about your E? A 1200 range line nuke gives you MASSIVE control over dragon. Having a 600 range single target nuke as your main damage spell at that point of the game is just begging to get raped by the enemy team.
Yes 2 rings and augment does more raw damage probably if you're not Qing the instant it comes off CD, but catalyst gives benefits of HP + hp/mana regen in lane. I also have another ~700 gold I can spend on stuff.Also RoA I think just helps more in the long run as the game goes on. Your E is the only long range spell, Viktor's range on Q and W are pretty short and you'll definitely be exposed in team fights and the extra hp helps. Also its more AP in long run which scales better into mid-late game. Catalyst is still a good laning item, it trades straight up damage trades for a more consistent laning phase imo.
What are you going to have bought with that 700g? You are trying to get to your RoA as soon as you can. You already have a long time to wait for AP when going catalyst, you don't want to delay it any longer. If you had 700g, you would just be letting it sit there and waiting for Blasting Wand.Last edit: 2012-01-20 21:33:58 |
| | Soniv ||| @jcarlsoniv ||| @TLCastingGolems ||| Join the Glorious Evolution. What's your favorite aminal, a bear? Death is in bloom. ||| The Big Golem |
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| Carnivorous Sheep January 20 2012 21:38. Posts 8736 | Profile Blog # |
E was maxed first in all games; 2 I guess is the farthest away since 3 ranks of Q but against Veigar it really is impossible for him to punish -anyone- in lane no matter how close they get provided they're not under tower.
Game three was 1 extra point in Q instead of E max. It was because Q was off cooldown as I leveled in middle of engagement and I leveled it and Q'ed for FB.
The Vlad game was straight E max, the advantage came from his misplay first and I didn't capitalize on it, but if he didn't stay with no HP there was nothign to capitalize anyways and the lane would've gone the exact same way. Vlad is OP now though and dumber than ever before after revolver so I don't think anything helps vs. Vlad.
I don't understand why you want so many levels of E before you get your rings/augment/AP from sources thats not runes/masteries. E is only better than Q after the augment/rings so why not level it as you're getting close to getting it? Levels 1-5 you're not getting any items most of the time so why not Q? Range is still a dumb argument since if you're Eing from from outside of counterable range you have a high chance of missing, and if they go on you, you can E them but you can also Q them for more damage/shield to tank AAs after the spell trade.
edit: FWIW the Vlad was 1800 and the Veigar was 1500. Not sure what the LB was didn't check/lane started off silly anyways so it wasn't that revealing of a game to me. IDK if they're actually experienced with the champs they played but ya.Last edit: 2012-01-20 21:42:57 |
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| Carnivorous Sheep January 20 2012 21:44. Posts 8736 | Profile Blog # |
On January 20 2012 21:31 jcarlsoniv wrote:
What are you going to have bought with that 700g? You are trying to get to your RoA as soon as you can. You already have a long time to wait for AP when going catalyst, you don't want to delay it any longer. If you had 700g, you would just be letting it sit there and waiting for Blasting Wand.
you're not always going back with exactly 1950 gold to buy 2x rings and an augment. you go back when the situation calls for it. you could have gone back a bit later with 900 gold after you have catalyst and have enough for the blasting wand?
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| jcarlsoniv United States. January 20 2012 23:09. Posts 4086 | Profile Blog # |
On January 20 2012 21:38 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
E was maxed first in all games; 2 I guess is the farthest away since 3 ranks of Q but against Veigar it really is impossible for him to punish -anyone- in lane no matter how close they get provided they're not under tower.
Game three was 1 extra point in Q instead of E max. It was because Q was off cooldown as I leveled in middle of engagement and I leveled it and Q'ed for FB.
The Vlad game was straight E max, the advantage came from his misplay first and I didn't capitalize on it, but if he didn't stay with no HP there was nothign to capitalize anyways and the lane would've gone the exact same way. Vlad is OP now though and dumber than ever before after revolver so I don't think anything helps vs. Vlad.
I don't understand why you want so many levels of E before you get your rings/augment/AP from sources thats not runes/masteries. E is only better than Q after the augment/rings so why not level it as you're getting close to getting it? Levels 1-5 you're not getting any items most of the time so why not Q? Range is still a dumb argument since if you're Eing from from outside of counterable range you have a high chance of missing, and if they go on you, you can E them but you can also Q them for more damage/shield to tank AAs after the spell trade.
edit: FWIW the Vlad was 1800 and the Veigar was 1500. Not sure what the LB was didn't check/lane started off silly anyways so it wasn't that revealing of a game to me. IDK if they're actually experienced with the champs they played but ya.
At level 9, when you can have your first move maxed, and you get 2 DRings and Augment, your E does over 400 damage at massive range in a line. Even if you go 2 DRings + Augment while maxing Q, it won't do as much damage, and it will be to single target. From what it sounds like, you're spamming Q on CD. This is alright, except you also claim to have mana issues. AP mid is a delicate balance early levels. Viktor has fairly high mana costs, so it's imperative to manage it closely.
On January 20 2012 21:44 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 21:31 jcarlsoniv wrote:
What are you going to have bought with that 700g? You are trying to get to your RoA as soon as you can. You already have a long time to wait for AP when going catalyst, you don't want to delay it any longer. If you had 700g, you would just be letting it sit there and waiting for Blasting Wand.
you're not always going back with exactly 1950 gold to buy 2x rings and an augment. you go back when the situation calls for it. you could have gone back a bit later with 900 gold after you have catalyst and have enough for the blasting wand?
Of course, this is the case with all of laning phase. I chose 2000g because it was an easy number to work with, as well as a completely reasonable amount of farm for you to have by lvl 9. It's also shows just how destructively powerful Viktor is starting at early-mid game, and it scales well into late game.
The thing with going cata first is it delays your early power. Viktor is an early-mid powerhouse (because of his Augment with maxed E), and using that to his advantage, takes that power all game. As soon as you have 2 DRing and augment, you can begin dominating the game.
Another problem with maxing Q first is that you sacrifice any and all pushing power Viktor has. As mid, it is important to have as much control over your lane as possible; this includes your lane opponent and the way the waves are pushing. Being able to quickly clear a lane with a laser and then move around the map is incredibly strong. Champions that struggle to clear lanes quickly will suffer unless they scale EXTREMELY well into late game (read: Ryze). |
| | Soniv ||| @jcarlsoniv ||| @TLCastingGolems ||| Join the Glorious Evolution. What's your favorite aminal, a bear? Death is in bloom. ||| The Big Golem |
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| Promises Netherlands. January 21 2012 11:07. Posts 1327 | Profile # |
I've been maining Viktor for a while now, and I do find him to be a good AP. In the late-late game he does fall off slightly with the itemslot less and the lack of real spammability. However, W becomes crazy good in late teamfights.
For my build I pretty much always start the same way: Boots+3pot, double dorans, Augment Death, Rylais, Deathcap. After this it just depends on what you want; WotA/Zhonya's etc. The reason for this item build is that the damage early on allows your pokes to actually hurt, and the HP mean you'll live quite a bit longer.
Skillwise I put a point in Q, then EEW, after which I just go R>E>Q>W. Q is a very mediocre spell, short ranged and the shield is late and meh. E is godlike. W is highly underestimated.
Viktor is well suited for an aggressive playstyle early on, altho you do need to CS well while doing this since you need the farm. So far I haven't really found a truly unfavorable match-up, altho relentless pushers with a bit of health/defence (Morde/Morgana/Heimer) are a pain because you don't really have the mana to clear wave after wave. Blue buff soon is a huge boost, and allows you to clear as fast as the others. Lategame skirting around the edges of the fight is a good style of play, allowing you the best lasershots and zoning out or defending people with W.
I can see why Viktor might not be competetive; lategame his CD's are too long and the missing itemslot starts to really hurt, and the fact that Q's kinda meh starts to come into play more. Still, he's a pretty strong champ especially early-midgame, and he can give most champs a run for their money on the lane. Give it a go, he's fun ^^
P.S.
On the Augment, just get Death. The passive bonusses from the other augments are crap lategame, and you NEED the extra damage on the laser to keep up with other AP's, which real-late you still wont be able to do due to the aforementioned high CD's.
+ Show Spoiler +Last edit: 2012-01-21 11:10:12 |
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| triplej United States. February 11 2012 07:44. Posts 27 | Profile # |
About the Augments:
Gravity doesn't seem that bad, yeah, the bonuses are crap, but being able to play more aggressively because you can CC guys that aren't standing directly in front of you is pretty nice.
I dunno, I tried it and enjoyed it. I did miss the DoT on the laser and the 45 extra AP. |
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| jcarlsoniv United States. February 11 2012 09:23. Posts 4086 | Profile Blog # |
On February 11 2012 07:44 triplej wrote:
About the Augments:
Gravity doesn't seem that bad, yeah, the bonuses are crap, but being able to play more aggressively because you can CC guys that aren't standing directly in front of you is pretty nice.
I dunno, I tried it and enjoyed it. I did miss the DoT on the laser and the 45 extra AP.
To be honest I haven't played too much with Gravity Augment. I've messed around with it a bit as support Viktor, and it's pretty decent there. But yeah, the biggest thing is it sacrifices Viktor's insane earl-mid game without the DoT and 45 AP. |
| | Soniv ||| @jcarlsoniv ||| @TLCastingGolems ||| Join the Glorious Evolution. What's your favorite aminal, a bear? Death is in bloom. ||| The Big Golem |
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| Alaric France. February 11 2012 09:55. Posts 8753 | Profile # |
Went against Vlad in one of my last games, I figured I'd get wrecked because of his superior range on Q. Turns out he used it on minions so I punished him everytime with Q (I started boots, he started amp), and after I stacked 2 drings he couldn't outpush me, while I won trades that went past the Qing each other phase (even with some E stacks built, he can't break the shield for enough damage compared to my E).
Once I had the augment I just one-shot the minion wave while sometimes eating his Q.
I got a bit surprised, but I guess it's just him playing Vlad bad than Viktor doing well in the match-up. |
| | "This build should be called the Neutron Bomb build - you can win by taking out all the people but leaving all the structures standing." - somebody about iEchoic's 2fac/2port (www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189624) |
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| Shiv. February 13 2012 18:30. Posts 1902 | Profile # | |
| | currently rooting for myself. |
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| Alaric France. February 13 2012 18:36. Posts 8753 | Profile # |
They said "when we get the chance to work on him", though, so it may take some time as they put it.
Boots+3 -> double DRing -> Death -> WotA/Rylai still feels really good to me. Great clean-up capabilities with blue buff (mostly for cdr) thanks to E range and the damage mitigation from spellvamp'd Q. |
| | "This build should be called the Neutron Bomb build - you can win by taking out all the people but leaving all the structures standing." - somebody about iEchoic's 2fac/2port (www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189624) |
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| jcarlsoniv United States. February 16 2012 23:03. Posts 4086 | Profile Blog # |
On February 13 2012 18:36 Alaric wrote:They said "when we get the chance to work on him", though, so it may take some time as they put it. Boots+3 -> double DRing -> Death -> WotA/Rylai still feels really good to me. Great clean-up capabilities with blue buff (mostly for cdr) thanks to E range and the damage mitigation from spellvamp'd Q.
Yes, WotA is still very strong. I'll only get Rylai's on him if I'm really getting beat up, for some reason I don't feel the slow as much on him as, say, Cass. WotA -> DCap is solid, although delays a bit of burst while saving for the NLR.
Edit: If they were to increase the power of the augment for a T3 upgrade, they will need to nerf the T2 in either scaling or raw power. Right now, the augment only falls off when you hit your 6 item build, which, admittedly, does come sooner for Viktor. His early-mid to early-late game is monstrously powerful, so hopefully they won't make him blatantly op, and we can keep using him as sleeper op. Last edit: 2012-02-16 23:16:44 |
| | Soniv ||| @jcarlsoniv ||| @TLCastingGolems ||| Join the Glorious Evolution. What's your favorite aminal, a bear? Death is in bloom. ||| The Big Golem |
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| WaveofShadow Canada. February 17 2012 01:44. Posts 5232 | Profile Blog # |
Haven't played him in a little while, I'll admit, but it seems as though it might be viable to upgrade even Power. Saw Salce do it and it improves his survivability in small skirmishes, though he does fall off harder lategame if you do it this way.
I used to max E and upgrade either Gravity or Death, leaning towards Death more often, but now honestly I think you can win a lane much easier by maxing Q first even against mages with the new return speed on Q. |
| | twitch.tv/waveofshadow ||| Winner of AHGL's So You Think You Can Cast!! GG Soniv! |
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| Requizen United States. February 17 2012 01:57. Posts 7318 | Profile Blog # |
Power just seems silly to get if you're already getting tanky caster items like WotA or Rylai, and ~2 DRings. After that, the extra health just seems unnecessary, and so you're paying a bunch for MS on Q. I'd rather build those tanky items and get Death as a damage boost.
I do kind of like Q first, or at least more than one rank early on. It's surprising how hard it will hit early on, most people don't expect it. However, E is just so good, even if just for pushing and zoning and you don't hit it every time. I'd rather have that insane pushing power and chance for burst, and WotA+Death augment means you rarely ever have to go back if you aren't spamming or have blue. |
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| Promises Netherlands. February 17 2012 07:59. Posts 1327 | Profile # |
| Aah I hope they keep him as he is or just stealthchange the other 2 augments so we can keep him as our precious =) To be honest tho, I haven't faced a single decent Viktor yet, the most common mistake is trying to go pure Q-W and sort of forgo'ing E, and just way too squishy builds is another one. I still love the man, and I think apart from Morgana he may be my most dominating AP. One thing that might save his lategame if you were able to sell and rebuy Augments. That way late-late game you could perhaps get the gravity Augment to give your team better CC, since at that point AP's dmg tends to fall off compared to AD's, and if you catch them in a combo its generally enough to kill them anyway. |
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| Vaporized United States. March 24 2012 16:30. Posts 914 | Profile # |
| viktor is in a good spot right now. he's a bit clunky and can be frustrating, but for the most part he's a blast imo. hah just saw someone say viktor is a sleeper op champ above. so true. ppl are surprised at how much damage i do. Last edit: 2012-03-24 16:30:43 |
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