On July 11 2012 04:31 Laertes wrote: Kabel, take PDD out and shelve it for now, I would REALLY like to try Defensive Matrix in game, also, the time scale thing is not hard, and I can make it for you if you want. The key is ONE field in a behavior called Time Scale, it slows everything about the unit down, and is relatively simple to change, granted you know your way around the editor. Do not turn down ideas because they are beyond your ability to make, because I am a pro map editor, and can help you with anything you need.
UPGRADES for collosi and dragoon are still in the game, take them out. Gossen get a build together with all the new caster abilities in that I created, fix up tooltips and stuff as well. I am playing a game with dakota, after I am done, I will wait on EU for you after you reply, kapice?
Sure we can play on EU. But I get so many ideas from people that it would be really time consuming adding everything to the game. Generally I try the abilities that I feel has the most potential. Yes, I know thats theorycrafting and it is not as good as actually trying the abilities, but I have to put a filter somewhere. (Sometimes my filter filters away ideas that are actually good.) Adding all of your ideas to the game will take time. My days only have 24 hours and I need to live and work too : /
Cause it saves me a lot of time, if people who has good ideas for abilities, spells or mechanics, makes an alternative map and shows the stuff too me. Everyone has access to Starbow. It can be opened and edited in the editor and saved with an alternative name. If the stuff is good and has potential, I add it to the game.
I tried your map last week and you have convinced me about the Dark Archon. I think it will fit in the game. Probably D-matrix too. But are there any new stuff you want to show me?
Will the time scale ability add something great to the game? Sure, it sounds interesting, but how can it be used and what purpose does it serve?
(The upgrade for Dragoon range actually works for Stalkers. I just forgot to change the button. The colossus upgrade I forgot to remove )
if you fly over workers, it will slow their mining down.
I honestly think that is a bad idea. Especially why I hate the Oracle from Heart of the Swarm. It's bad because you're controlling whether or not a player can mine minerals as effectively which is just bad.
You may have a fresh start any moment you choose, for this thing we call "failure" is not the falling down, but the staying down.
Not sure if the Reaper is still in the game, but if he is give him his sticky grenade he had. Make them spawn with 3 after an upgrade, like spidermines.
Last edit: 2012-07-11 05:22:00
Kill the Deathball
MNdakota United States. July 11 2012 05:33. Posts 505
On July 11 2012 05:21 pzea469 wrote: Not sure if the Reaper is still in the game, but if he is give him his sticky grenade he had. Make them spawn with 3 after an upgrade, like spidermines.
It's ok for a unit to not have an ability. There's already enough complex stuff like that. Besides, I don't like the idea of the Reaper jumping up a cliff and killing everything etc etc. I could go more in-depth but I personally don't want to see that idea come into play. It's gimmicky really.
Not every single unit needs a spell.
Last edit: 2012-07-11 05:35:38
You may have a fresh start any moment you choose, for this thing we call "failure" is not the falling down, but the staying down.
Not sure if the Reaper is still in the game, but if he is give him his sticky grenade he had. Make them spawn with 3 after an upgrade, like spidermines.
Ok that reflective shield is actually quite interesting O_o
Last edit: 2012-07-11 05:58:54
pzea469 United States. July 11 2012 06:07. Posts 1473
Might as well ask: anyone knows how to fix the buildings animations in Starbow?
Right now, some buildings does not play the animation when units are built. And the Stargate looks like its producing a Void ray even when its not producing anything.. O_o (The void ray has a custom skin thought.. can that be a part of the issue)
I have not removed or changed the building animations on purpose. (I don´t even know how to do this.)
If anyone knows, or knows anyone who knows, please PM me. It´s time to fix things like that.
Last edit: 2012-07-11 06:27:51
pzea469 United States. July 11 2012 06:20. Posts 1473
On July 11 2012 06:16 Kabel wrote: Might as well ask: anyone knows how to fix the buildings animations in Starbow?
Right now, some buildings does not play the animation when units are built. And the Stargate looks like its producing a Void ray even when its not producing anything.. O_o
I have not removed or changed the building animations on purpose.
I thought this was done on purpose so you wouldn't know when an enemy is building something. BW did this with some buildings. But I don't think that really adds anything. It's better for all buildings to have their animations. It looks odd when I'm building something but the building is just standing there, looking at me...
but no sorry, wish I could help :/ Wish I had more editor knowledge.
I will soon go and sleep but these are the ones I can think of on top of my head:
The Reaver!
The stupid scarabs causes so much unhappines. Just because it was weird in BW doesnt mean it must be weird here too.
- The scarabs stops before it reaches the enemy units (if the targeted unit dies before the scarab reaches it) - Scarabs get stuck on buildings - For the sake of simplicity, if the scarab could move throught both units and buildings, but stop at cliff edges, would be great. But I can´t get that to work. I can only make it pass through units. (Which it does right now). If I make it move through both units and buildings, it also moves up and down cliffs! Building animations
I don´t remember exactly all buildings that have weird building animations. I do know that the Stargate is worst. When a Void ray is being produced and is finished, the stargate still looks like its producing one, even if the stargate builds nothing! (You know that white contour in the middle of the stargate)
I think the barrack and factory look dead when they produce units. More people here can post their claims. I am looking in the editor now. I don´t find why it is like that.
Overall, the mod is full of so much shit from the past. I have added lots of stuff over the months this has been uploaded. I will do a major clean up and remove all unnecessary skins, abilities, units and other weird stuff. I just fear that shit will stop working.. kinda like an old car that is not suppose to work works, and if the mechanic removes just a tiny screw in the motor the entire car falls apart..
On July 11 2012 07:08 0neder wrote: Golden stalkers are nice. But stalkers are still too sharp. I'd prefer the dragoon model or a modified stalker model that is less sharp.
How do you mean with sharp?
pzea469 United States. July 11 2012 07:18. Posts 1473
Hey did the dark archon get removed? Sorry this was probably mentioned before but I enjoyed playing with the DA when it was there, but just now I played a game on the updated map and merged two DT's only to make a regular archon :/ Maelstrom was awesome.
You know, the Reaver is weird, but it's your job to put it in good situations. Give it a straight shot and don't target the unit that's in the middle just to do more damage if you get lucky, and it works pretty well. I've been having great results with it.
Kill the Deathball
pzea469 United States. July 11 2012 07:20. Posts 1473
On July 11 2012 07:08 0neder wrote: Golden stalkers are nice. But stalkers are still too sharp. I'd prefer the dragoon model or a modified stalker model that is less sharp.
How do you mean with sharp?
I guess he means pointy? Idk, but we basically just want the Goon back I think lol. The skin is nice though, I made a similar one myself, as well as a voidray one.
Can't wait for Startools so I can make this model work properly
I hate the default SC2 zealot lol. But the portrait is nice.
Last edit: 2012-07-11 07:23:41
Kill the Deathball
MNdakota United States. July 11 2012 07:23. Posts 505
On July 11 2012 07:08 0neder wrote: Golden stalkers are nice. But stalkers are still too sharp. I'd prefer the dragoon model or a modified stalker model that is less sharp.
How do you mean with sharp?
I guess he means pointy? Idk, but we basically just want the Goon back I think lol. The skin is nice though, I made a similar one myself, as well as a voidray one.
Yeah the golden Stalker looks absolutely awesome! Screw the Goon, I would rather have the golden Stalker anyday. xD
Still miss the Medic.
Last edit: 2012-07-11 07:23:58
You may have a fresh start any moment you choose, for this thing we call "failure" is not the falling down, but the staying down.
pzea469 United States. July 11 2012 07:24. Posts 1473
On July 11 2012 07:08 0neder wrote: Golden stalkers are nice. But stalkers are still too sharp. I'd prefer the dragoon model or a modified stalker model that is less sharp.
How do you mean with sharp?
I guess he means pointy? Idk, but we basically just want the Goon back I think lol. The skin is nice though, I made a similar one myself, as well as a voidray one.
Yeah the golden Stalker looks absolutely awesome! Screw the Goon, I would rather have the golden Stalker anyday. xD
this post was on the last page, was editing it, but im adding the final editing as its own post as well.
On July 10 2012 22:06 Kabel wrote: Discussion of the day:
What spells shall be added to the game?
These are the current casters in the game. For you who don´t know, I will give a quick recap of the current spells they use in Starbow. Science vessel - Point defence drone, EMP and Irradiate. Ghost - Cloak, snipe, lockdown and Nuke
Swarm Guardian - Dark swarm Infestor - Neural parasite (can also cast it while burrowed), Tremor and Plague. (Tremor spawns a nydus worm that spawns additional free units that lasts a short time. There are replays in the opening post where it is used.) Queen - Spawn creep and Transfuse.
High templar - Feedback and Psi Storm Arbiter - Vortex and permanent cloaking field for ground units only.
--- The big questions: ---
What additional spells can be added to High templar, Swarm Guardians and Arbiters? Recall on Arbiters were a great tool in BW since it gave the slow Protoss army mobility. Now Protoss has mobility via Blink and Warp in. Laertes has suggested to add a kind of shield ability to the Arbiter that upon activation gives hardened shields to all units nearby. The Swarm Guardian is a unit that "guards the swarm". Adding some kind of Ensnare ability from BW has been suggested. High templar works fine now, but there is always room for a third spell ^^
If the Dark Archon is added to the game, what spells shall it have? If Dark Shrine remains as a tech choice in the game, getting Dark templars + Dark Archons gotta be a strong alternative to High templars + Archons. It has been suggested that Dark Archons shall have Force field + Maelstrom from BW.
With the hand on your heart, is Tremor really a useful spell? How can Tremor be more useful? What spell can replace Tremor? What should the Infestor do? Infest..?
Shall Defence Matrix replace Point defence drone? Or maybe even something else..
I try to categorize spells into the following sub-groups:
"Snipe spells" - Spells that targets only a single unit and the goal is to nullifiy that unit in some way. Examples Snipe, Neural parasite, Feedback. Lockdown, Irradiate
"Damage spells" - Spells whos purpose is to destroy the enemy, preferably as fast as possible ^^. Example: Psi storm, Hellfire Missiles on the Wraiths, Yamato cannon
"Stop spells" - Spells that prevent the enemy from doing things. Example: Force field, Fungal growth, Vortex, Maelstrom and Stasis Field from BW, EMP in Starbow (right now it makes units unable to use spells or abilities for 30 seconds aside from draining all energy)
Pre-combat spells - My favourite category. Spells that are not used in combat, but rather before combat to weaken the enemy. Example: Plague, Irradiate, Tremor, Nukes and maybe Stasis Field and Hellfire missiles.
(One of the most intersting things in BW was the dance between Defilers and Science Vessels. Defilers wanted to sneak up and Plague/Dark swarm the enemy before attack. The Vessels had to Irradiate the Lurkers and Defilers before his army could advance. The game of spells before the big engagements...)
Protective spells - Spells you cast on your armies to give them protecion or boosts. Example: Dark Swarm, Point defence Drone, Defence Matrix from BW, Transfuse, Guardian Shield Mobility spells - Spells that gives your units mobility on the map. Recall, Blink..
Area control spells - Spells that gives you control of an area. Dark Swarm, Force field, maybe Tremor..
I´m sure this can be theroized in many ways. I aim to add spells that are simple to understand and adds a lot of depth too the game. Players shall be able to use the spells in creative ways and do pimpest plays ^^
Feel free to discuss and suggest.
I want to add 2 more cathegories, supportive/defensive spells and Informational spells
all of the below exclude passive abilities such as devourers slow-on-hit, marauders concussive shell, banelings explode upon attack and several units detection. it includes auto-cast abilities such as medics heal and the zealot charge though.
if it has a cooldown or costs energy or requires the player to do an activation or any combination of those, its here. (interestingly cloaking field does not fulfill any of those conditions, so that is a special case) (similarly, sensor tower does not fulfill any of the conditions, but thats not really a spell so thats left out) (and siege tank siege mode is its own unit, not a spell in my opinion.) (and command center/planetary fortress loading/unloading is not mentioned because they have no significant impact of the game)
total spells: 40 (not counting multiples for duplicates such as burrow and loading/unloading)
and finally the starbow spells (I might miss a few since there is no wiki where I can look up an actual list and if I do miss some, who would blame me?) + Show Spoiler +
- Z has very few snipe spells, but snipe spells is in my opinion not a focus of the game, so this is fine IMO
- in comparison to T, Z and P have very few damage spells, though P do have the strongest damage spell in the game
- there are very few stop spells (note that BW had plenty of powerful stop spells, even though people like to claim otherwise) and there are not a single one for zerg.
- P have 1 pre-combat spell (Phasing Mode for warp prism, which just barely counts). this doesn't seem right. compare to Z (3) and T (4).
- T have no mobility spells other than dropping (and stim, but stim costs health).
- P have very little and weak area control spells. (Vortex and Cloaking Field). compare to Z and T which have plenty of powerful ones.
- P have very few and weak supportive/defensive spells
- T have 1 informational spell, Z have 3, P have none.
P is lacking in many areas, I would say focus on giving P some <3, especially supportive/defensive spells, area control spells and pre-combat spells. you know, kabel, your favourite cathegories.
T have a little bit low mobility theoretically, but since medivacs are amazing that shouldn't be too much of a problem in practice. however, T seems to have a ton of straight up damage spells, perhaps switch some out for variety? other than that T seems well-rounded in most areas.
Z have no stop spells. at all. it is true that too many stop spells can very well ruin the game, but some stop spells are better than no stop spells. its a matter of moderation. I suggest ensnare or similar, I am personally against having an area where enemies are slowed by the way, i would prefer the original ensnare, enemies that are hit gets a debuff which makes them move and attack slower, and the effect stays for a duration, not just until they move away. also, to make queens more valuable (and thus more widely used) I would remove the initial creep tumor from the game, increase the creep radius generated by creep tumors and make creep tumors not able to spread by themselves. that way it is easier to spread more creep, but it is a slower process (because using the queens energy once = 1 creep tumor, not infinity creep tumors) and requires the queen to be at the edge of the creep. the creep tumor cost may need changing. (I think I suggested making creep tumors not spread infinitely some 4 months back, just bringing it back up for discussion)
also, someone suggested having creep tumors be upgradeable to spine/sporecrawlers. I am against this, as that would force spinecrawlers to be static (else they would be able to generate creep, move, generate more creep... it wouldnt make sense to have a building which can move, requires creep to burrow, but generates its own creep) and I like my moving spines. also then you would need a queen before making any spines, and even then there would be a strict limit to how fast you can build defenses. all races should be able to go "OH SHIT I NEED CANNONS/BUNKERS/SPINES/MISSILE TURRETS/SPORES!!!!" and build 10 of them at the same time if they feel like it. whether or not it was the correct decision is a different case entirely.
also I would say Hallucination as informational P spell, it does the job and have a few other uses. or P might not need informational spells if we assume observers does the job instead.
now, have a nice day.
I have a day9 funday monday to watch (and its my race on topic, woohoo! (but its such a difficult topic, the games will probably suck (but hopefully it will be awesomeness!)))
// Roblin
I'm better today than I was yesterday!
MNdakota United States. July 11 2012 07:36. Posts 505
On July 11 2012 07:28 Roblin wrote: P is lacking in many areas, I would say focus on giving P some <3, especially supportive/defensive spells, area control spells and pre-combat spells. you know, kabel, your favourite cathegories.
T have a little bit low mobility theoretically, but since medivacs are amazing that shouldn't be too much of a problem in practice. however, T seems to have a ton of straight up damage spells, perhaps switch some out for variety? other than that T seems well-rounded in most areas.
Z have no stop spells. at all. it is true that too many stop spells can very well ruin the game, but some stop spells are better than no stop spells. its a matter of moderation. I suggest ensnare or similar, I am personally against having an area where enemies are slowed by the way, i would prefer the original ensnare, enemies that are hit gets a debuff which makes them move and attack slower, and the effect stays for a duration, not just until they move away. also, to make queens more valuable (and thus more widely used) I would remove the initial creep tumor from the game, increase the creep radius generated by creep tumors and make creep tumors not able to spread by themselves. that way it is easier to spread more creep, but it is a slower process (because using the queens energy once = 1 creep tumor, not infinity creep tumors) and requires the queen to be at the edge of the creep. the creep tumor cost may need changing. (I think I suggested making creep tumors not spread infinitely some 4 months back, just bringing it back up for discussion)
I have to disagree that the races do not "need" certain spells. I like the race diversity. One race doesn't have to be similar to the other.
Every race doesn't need a "defensive" spell or a "control" spell. That will just be even harder to think of ideas either way.
The Queen is probably a unit that should be looked at instead of all the other spell casters out there because the Queen is the most undeveloped one. Remember that it is an attacking spell caster and it is 150 minerals so it probably shouldn't be in its place right now. If it were to gain good abilities, then it would have to be moved to another tier.
I honestly think that what we've come up with is solid.
On an unrelated note. I think Creep Tumors are extremely awkward to deal with and it feels messy to me. I've felt like this even with vanilla StarCraft 2 even. Maybe bring back Creep Colonies so creep is more scary to deal with.
Last edit: 2012-07-11 07:37:44
You may have a fresh start any moment you choose, for this thing we call "failure" is not the falling down, but the staying down.
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0neder United States. July 11 2012 07:08. Posts 3732![[image loading]](http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d69/pzea/Terrain048.jpg?t=1277531687)
![[image loading]](http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d69/pzea/Terrain047.jpg?t=1277531708)
Screw the Goon, I would rather have the golden Stalker anyday. xD
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/cHdZo.jpg)
Dark Swarm, Force field, maybe Tremor..
