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| IMoperator January 26 2012 14:57. Posts 1670 | Profile # |
On January 26 2012 14:41 Medrea wrote:
"Ghost EMP is too weak"
ಠ_ಠ
Yes, we know, terran is op. That's why you lose ladder games, not because your lack of skill but because emp is too good.Last edit: 2012-01-26 14:57:55 |
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| SwizzY United States. January 26 2012 14:58. Posts 1089 | Profile Blog # |
"terran can't beat protoss"
DA FUQ?
I don't understand why DK doesn't derive the bulk of his questions from a place like... oh I don't know... TEAMLIQUID - The largest international starcraft hub available?!
I see threadworthy topics every other week concerning SC2 - none of which were addressed in this Q&A |
| | All that glitters is not gold, all that wander are not lost, the old that is strong does not wither, deep roots are not reached by frost. |  |
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 INTOtheVOID United States. January 26 2012 15:01. Posts 225 | Profile # |
The only 3 of the complaints that are legit are:
Mass Mutalisks vs. Protoss
Carrier Removal in Heart of the Swarm
Nydus Worm is Too Inconsistent — Make It More Like the Overlord Transport
All the rest are hardly an issue, some of them even completely wrong. EMP too weak? Not only is EMP still an extremely powerful spell, but it should be researched in my opinion...Protoss has to research storm and Zerg has to research NP, yet ghosts start out with both Snipe and EMP. I'm not whining about IMBA but come on...at the very least EMP sure as hell doesn't deserve to be strengthened anymore.
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| | Pink Floyd's music is like a beautiful girl walking down the street who won't talk to you. |  |
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| IMoperator January 26 2012 15:02. Posts 1670 | Profile # |
On January 26 2012 14:58 SwizzY wrote:
"terran can't beat protoss"
DA FUQ?
I don't understand why DK doesn't derive the bulk of his questions from a place like... oh I don't know... TEAMLIQUID - The largest international starcraft hub available?!
I see threadworthy topics every other week concerning SC2 - none of which were addressed in this Q&A
Actually there were multiple threads about terran. one being "fundamental problems with terran" where people discussed how terran is great high level, but low level it kinda sucks. the whole "terran can't beat protoss" thing comes from low level (masters or below) terrans that can't beat the protoss death ball. |
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| neoghaleon55 United States. January 26 2012 15:02. Posts 6291 | Profile Blog # |
On January 26 2012 14:58 SwizzY wrote:
"terran can't beat protoss"
DA FUQ?
I don't understand why DK doesn't derive the bulk of his questions from a place like... oh I don't know... TEAMLIQUID - The largest international starcraft hub available?!
I see threadworthy topics every other week concerning SC2 - none of which were addressed in this Q&A
The fact that he addressed questions like "Terran can't win against protoss" really gives me an aneurysm.
Blizzard is so out of touch with the community when they obtain silly questions like that from the spamfest that is battle.net forum.Last edit: 2012-01-26 15:04:38 |
| | moo...for DRG |  |
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| SyX Australia. January 26 2012 15:09. Posts 5 | Profile # |
What a lot of people in this thread fail to realize is that win rates are not the only relevant statement of balance.
Certainly a balanced game should probably have a close to even distribution of results at the highest level, but there are many ways to balance a game.
Now I do not claim to have a flawless understanding of the current balance and metagame, but bear with me and view the following as an example (not necessarily correct, clearly exaggerated, and clearly over simplified) designed to illustrate a flaw in the logic of parts of the community.
Consider the case of mass Mutalisk against Protoss:
Suppose that a Mutalisk ball of some critical mass becomes near impossible to defeat by an equally skilled Protoss player. Top level Protoss players realize that in order to beat this strategy they must do an early 2 base timing designed to win outright against a Mutalisk teching Zerg.
Suppose that Zergs doing this Mutalisk strategy have a 50% chance of surviving the timing attack. What happens now?
Well the game is effectively decided in this battle. If the Zerg survives then he will get his "unbeatable" muta ball up and surely win the game.
So in this case, PvZ has a 50% winrate and is "balanced", but isn't it dull to know the outcome after the protoss attack? Isn't it dull to spend the next 15 minutes watching the Zerg slowly but inevitably pick the Protoss apart?
So what is the solution in this case (assuming that mutalisk play is desired)?
Somehow give Zerg a minor buff to their early game which makes them much more likely to survive until the late game, but then buff the Protoss response to this lategame option.
Done correctly, PvZ is still a 50% game, but it becomes much more dynamic and varied.
I am not going to be so naive to suggest that I know how either race should be changed, but in my opinion, a tier 3 unit that takes years to manufacture, shares no useful tech with the rest of the protoss army, and cannot defend a base because it is too expensive to have more than 2, and too slow to defend multiple locations is definitely not the correct response.Last edit: 2012-01-26 15:11:22 |
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| GohgamX Canada. January 26 2012 15:10. Posts 914 | Profile # |
| They have to keep the carrier, even if its just for end game.I'll keep waiting for HoTS ... |
| | Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils ... | |
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| GhandiEAGLE United States. January 26 2012 15:15. Posts 4365 | Profile Blog # |
| Friends, we have hope for the carrier! Raise your hands and lift your voices in praise! |
| | ♪ We been spendin' most our lives, livin' in an E-Sports paradise~ ♫ | |
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| Chengakz United States. January 26 2012 15:21. Posts 140 | Profile # |
| "In fact, zerg is not struggling at any level of play, and their win ratio compared to skill is extremely solid at every skill level."---- finally, someone credible says it....i think pro zerg players know in their hearts their race is not the weakest,otherwise, why rely on zerg for their livelihood.... I notice that it's always the one who loses who complain about balance...yet taht same person you dont hear complaining when he wins. Yes, there are some inconsistencies...but overall, it is a great game. Promote esports, not give it a bad image. |
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| Velocirapture United States. January 26 2012 15:28. Posts 616 | Profile # |
The whole muta situation reveals some of their thought process with balance that makes me hopeful. Really mutas are pretty balanced from the outside looking in. Sure, if they reach a critical mass then it is over for toss but it is always possible to prevent that from happening (barring insanely bad luck on larger maps).
What this change means is that they dont like the idea of an unkillable death ball no matter how difficult it is to get. Players should always have at least some small percent chance of victory until the game is over. IMO this is EXCELLENT.
They hinted at this view with how they dealt with the toss death ball. At the time it almost made me laugh that people were upset when toss couldnt be killed when they had 200/200 all voidrays/collo/mothership/blink stalker. Such an army is impossibly expensive and slow to produce vs any skilled player, but in retrospect that shouldnt matter.
This isnt civilization, there should not be a technology alternate win condition no matter how hard it is to get. |
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| ThomasHobbes United States. January 26 2012 15:30. Posts 197 | Profile # |
On January 26 2012 15:21 Chengakz wrote:
"In fact, zerg is not struggling at any level of play, and their win ratio compared to skill is extremely solid at every skill level."---- finally, someone credible says it....i think pro zerg players know in their hearts their race is not the weakest,otherwise, why rely on zerg for their livelihood.... I notice that it's always the one who loses who complain about balance...yet taht same person you dont hear complaining when he wins. Yes, there are some inconsistencies...but overall, it is a great game. Promote esports, not give it a bad image.
Yes, why does anyone play Protoss for their livelihood, when Kim himself says they're not up to par? -> Poor Argument.
Kim admits that, in Korea, Terrans are winning the most tournaments; this trend has been pretty consistent, Terrans tend to dominate on that stage. It also happens that the Korean scene is recognizably "better" than their foreign competition, only a few select foreigners are capable of competing in Code S level play.
So, when analyzing the highest skilled pool of professional players, Terrans win the most. This is not indicative of total balance, but rather what Kim himself admits earlier, lower ranked Terrans (and to a certain extent, foreigner Terrans) are not good enough to exploit the strengths of their race. When micro is exploited on a much higher level, Terrans tend to win the majority of tournaments. |
| | "The life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short." |
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| Antisocialmunky United States. January 26 2012 15:32. Posts 5090 | Profile Blog # |
| No they shouldn't have a chance once they are too far behind unless their opp fails or Idra GG Timing. |
| [ﾟnﾟ] SSSSssssssSSsss ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Marine/Raven Guide:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163605 |
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| Arisen United States. January 26 2012 15:55. Posts 1993 | Profile Blog # |
Most of these questions are shit. The only one I think is legit is the muta zvp, which I believe is an overraction based on a newish trend in the matchup that hasn't fully been adapted to. I believe that alot of these answers are scary. Where do they come up that zerg does the best in foregin tourneys and protoss does the worst? Sure, stephano and Dimaga win a bit, but there have been 3 protoss on top of tlpd for the longest fucking time with protoss almost always on top (foreigners). I don't like them thinking so much about buffing or nerfing based on stuff that happens suddenly.
The Same thing has been happening forever; they patch something right after people start figuring it out. I believe SaSe crushed almost every terran (including probably the best TvP on the planet at that time, STBomber) at one MLG right before the EMP nerf when people were complaining about PvT being "unwinnable" lategame, all with long ass macro games with ghosts involved. We saw HerO start crushing zergs with warp prism harass at a time where every protoss was complaining about the matchup right before a big balance patch.I think the balance right now is good and and I hope they don't overreact and fuck it up, and honestly I feel if there isn't overwhelming data over a very long period of time (around a year), they just shouldn't touch the game balance and just let people figure it out for themselves. |
| | "If you're not angry, you're not paying attention" |  |
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| Lorizean Germany. January 26 2012 16:07. Posts 1088 | Profile Blog # |
I noticed that some players were worried that we don’t take the community’s feedback into account, and that we only listen to pro players.
[...]
our player community remains a vital source of feedback about StarCraft II
Well, that just concerns me. They SHOULD only listen to pro players and not some random b.net forum whiner. |
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| itsjuspeter United States. January 26 2012 16:15. Posts 657 | Profile # |
On January 26 2012 15:55 Arisen wrote:
Most of these questions are shit. The only one I think is legit is the muta zvp, which I believe is an overraction based on a newish trend in the matchup that hasn't fully been adapted to. I believe that alot of these answers are scary. Where do they come up that zerg does the best in foregin tourneys and protoss does the worst? Sure, stephano and Dimaga win a bit, but there have been 3 protoss on top of tlpd for the longest fucking time with protoss almost always on top (foreigners). I don't like them thinking so much about buffing or nerfing based on stuff that happens suddenly.
The Same thing has been happening forever; they patch something right after people start figuring it out. I believe SaSe crushed almost every terran (including probably the best TvP on the planet at that time, STBomber) at one MLG right before the EMP nerf when people were complaining about PvT being "unwinnable" lategame, all with long ass macro games with ghosts involved. We saw HerO start crushing zergs with warp prism harass at a time where every protoss was complaining about the matchup right before a big balance patch.I think the balance right now is good and and I hope they don't overreact and fuck it up, and honestly I feel if there isn't overwhelming data over a very long period of time (around a year), they just shouldn't touch the game balance and just let people figure it out for themselves.
I really hope you don't talk about the TLPD being a viable source for protoss consistency as there are barely any protoss, not a single one until the 10th slot in the korean standings which is the ONLY standings I will even consider using as evidence. I agree that maybe more time needs to be given for people to figure out how to counteract some builds but as stated before in a post above me, what if A) the zerg's muta ball is really unbeatable B) protoss timing attacking before crit muta mass becomes standard C) It all comes down to that timing attack and after that it is over with (50% chance for each side), the stats may say its balanced, but then this is flawed game design. The reason i bring this up is the problem is we have to figure out if the CHANGE is NECESSARY, not necessarily giving any change x amount of time before implementing it to make it legit. If a change is necessary, then hell I'd implement it asap than wait a grueling year for people to never figure something out. |
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| kinglemon Germany. January 26 2012 16:25. Posts 196 | Profile # |
On January 26 2012 16:07 Lorizean wrote:
Show nested quote +
I noticed that some players were worried that we don’t take the community’s feedback into account, and that we only listen to pro players.
[...]
our player community remains a vital source of feedback about StarCraft II
Well, that just concerns me. They SHOULD only listen to pro players and not some random b.net forum whiner.
well a lot of pros have proven that they don't have to have a understanding of good balance.
there is probably good and bad suggestions in every segment of players.
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| Mjolnir January 26 2012 16:39. Posts 815 | Profile # |
They could solve the PvZ muta issue by making maps that had no empty space behind the base.
Seriously, I would love to see these maps implemented and watch as everyone's jaws drop at how much a difference it makes. It's so much easier to defend 180 degrees than it is to defend 360 degrees.
EDIT: Incoming balance nerfs as a knee-jerk reaction to new trends in the game that people haven't fully adapted to. Just sayin'.
Last edit: 2012-01-26 16:41:27 |
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| Zanno United States. January 26 2012 16:39. Posts 1441 | Profile Blog # |
Mass Mutalisks vs. Protoss eh
retire phoenix
invent corphoenisair that has corsair attack and phoenix spell
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| Arisen United States. January 26 2012 17:09. Posts 1993 | Profile Blog # |
On January 26 2012 16:15 itsjuspeter wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 15:55 Arisen wrote:
Most of these questions are shit. The only one I think is legit is the muta zvp, which I believe is an overraction based on a newish trend in the matchup that hasn't fully been adapted to. I believe that alot of these answers are scary. Where do they come up that zerg does the best in foregin tourneys and protoss does the worst? Sure, stephano and Dimaga win a bit, but there have been 3 protoss on top of tlpd for the longest fucking time with protoss almost always on top (foreigners). I don't like them thinking so much about buffing or nerfing based on stuff that happens suddenly.
The Same thing has been happening forever; they patch something right after people start figuring it out. I believe SaSe crushed almost every terran (including probably the best TvP on the planet at that time, STBomber) at one MLG right before the EMP nerf when people were complaining about PvT being "unwinnable" lategame, all with long ass macro games with ghosts involved. We saw HerO start crushing zergs with warp prism harass at a time where every protoss was complaining about the matchup right before a big balance patch.I think the balance right now is good and and I hope they don't overreact and fuck it up, and honestly I feel if there isn't overwhelming data over a very long period of time (around a year), they just shouldn't touch the game balance and just let people figure it out for themselves.
I really hope you don't talk about the TLPD being a viable source for protoss consistency as there are barely any protoss, not a single one until the 10th slot in the korean standings which is the ONLY standings I will even consider using as evidence. I agree that maybe more time needs to be given for people to figure out how to counteract some builds but as stated before in a post above me, what if A) the zerg's muta ball is really unbeatable B) protoss timing attacking before crit muta mass becomes standard C) It all comes down to that timing attack and after that it is over with (50% chance for each side), the stats may say its balanced, but then this is flawed game design. The reason i bring this up is the problem is we have to figure out if the CHANGE is NECESSARY, not necessarily giving any change x amount of time before implementing it to make it legit. If a change is necessary, then hell I'd implement it asap than wait a grueling year for people to never figure something out.
Only taking korean records into account is obtuse. We've seen foreigner protoss beat the best TvP available at a time where no korean protoss could.
As to implementing sooner rather than later, you already said, what IF. If is big; we can't know until there's been a long time to support it. People "knew" you couldn't open up spire versus protoss because of the phoeni buff, then the gateway all-in metagame, etc. People "knew" you couldn't beat a protoss deathball with zerg, people"knew" you couldn't be aggressive with small amounts of units versus zerg asprotoss, people "knew" you couldn't go roach/hydra. People "knew" all kinds of shit for a long time that ended up being wrong. After the bisu build protoss win rates were way better than zerg's for like a year and a quarter, and before that zergs were killing protoss for a long ass time. People will find new ways to beat stuff if you give them time. Patching something because you THINK things may end uplike that is a bad reason.
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| | "If you're not angry, you're not paying attention" | |
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| Mjolnir January 26 2012 17:12. Posts 815 | Profile # |
On January 26 2012 17:09 Arisen wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 16:15 itsjuspeter wrote:
On January 26 2012 15:55 Arisen wrote:
Most of these questions are shit. The only one I think is legit is the muta zvp, which I believe is an overraction based on a newish trend in the matchup that hasn't fully been adapted to. I believe that alot of these answers are scary. Where do they come up that zerg does the best in foregin tourneys and protoss does the worst? Sure, stephano and Dimaga win a bit, but there have been 3 protoss on top of tlpd for the longest fucking time with protoss almost always on top (foreigners). I don't like them thinking so much about buffing or nerfing based on stuff that happens suddenly.
The Same thing has been happening forever; they patch something right after people start figuring it out. I believe SaSe crushed almost every terran (including probably the best TvP on the planet at that time, STBomber) at one MLG right before the EMP nerf when people were complaining about PvT being "unwinnable" lategame, all with long ass macro games with ghosts involved. We saw HerO start crushing zergs with warp prism harass at a time where every protoss was complaining about the matchup right before a big balance patch.I think the balance right now is good and and I hope they don't overreact and fuck it up, and honestly I feel if there isn't overwhelming data over a very long period of time (around a year), they just shouldn't touch the game balance and just let people figure it out for themselves.
I really hope you don't talk about the TLPD being a viable source for protoss consistency as there are barely any protoss, not a single one until the 10th slot in the korean standings which is the ONLY standings I will even consider using as evidence. I agree that maybe more time needs to be given for people to figure out how to counteract some builds but as stated before in a post above me, what if A) the zerg's muta ball is really unbeatable B) protoss timing attacking before crit muta mass becomes standard C) It all comes down to that timing attack and after that it is over with (50% chance for each side), the stats may say its balanced, but then this is flawed game design. The reason i bring this up is the problem is we have to figure out if the CHANGE is NECESSARY, not necessarily giving any change x amount of time before implementing it to make it legit. If a change is necessary, then hell I'd implement it asap than wait a grueling year for people to never figure something out.
Only taking korean records into account is obtuse. We've seen foreigner protoss beat the best TvP available at a time where no korean protoss could. As to implementing sooner rather than later, you already said, what IF. If is big; we can't know until there's been a long time to support it. People "knew" you couldn't open up spire versus protoss because of the phoeni buff, then the gateway all-in metagame, etc. People "knew" you couldn't beat a protoss deathball with zerg, people"knew" you couldn't be aggressive with small amounts of units versus zerg asprotoss, people "knew" you couldn't go roach/hydra. People "knew" all kinds of shit for a long time that ended up being wrong. After the bisu build protoss win rates were way better than zerg's for like a year and a quarter, and before that zergs were killing protoss for a long ass time. People will find new ways to beat stuff if you give them time. Patching something because you THINK things may end uplike that is a bad reason.
I agree wholeheartedly. Unfortunately, Blizzard does not.
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