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| blade55555 United States. January 27 2012 09:00. Posts 14263 | Profile Blog # |
Hi all me again and writing another guide but this time for zerg vs terran. I have made some adjustments to my play and made a more solid opening. This guide isn't going to go into detail to much about the mid/late game you can look at my other zvt guide for that.
Another thing to note, all the replays are from the korean server and I believe all 3 games are pretty good games to show the beginning and for those curious my transition into mid/late game.
For those curious on my other guides you can locate them here:
Zerg vs Zerg hatch first vs 14/14: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=199583
Zerg vs Zerg Muta play: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=282954
Zerg vs Terran guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=211960
Zerg vs Protoss guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=210354
Zerg vs Protoss Delayed Lair guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=259629
Zerg vs Protoss Tier 2 aggression: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=318129
Now to start things off!
--------Introduction--------
Now I am going to explain the point of the build and why I do this. For starters it always irritates me how zerg players in general, not just the average zerg but even top tier zergs always stick to ling in the early game and let the terran have early game map control. They do nothing to stop it, except sometimes try to get a ling surround praying their opponent isn't paying attention to their hellions.
I find many problems with this method and I'll tell you what I hate about the method of just lings.
No map control, you are relying on your opponent to make a mistake to hopefully get it back with just lings. That to me is just not that good to rely on your opponent making a mistake and thus you get map control back.
Your third is heavily delayed, you can not get a third against an opponent who doesn't let you kill his hellions until mutalisks come into play or whatever your tier 2 tech you are doing (infestors being the other tech). So while you wait for that your third isn't going to be started until about 10 minutes into the game. I feel this is not the best thing because thats a long time on 2 base vs 2 base.
Also of course you can't spread your creep.
Now it also annoys me to no end that if a zerg decides to go roach play they feel they have to commit to them. Everytime I see a top zerg go roaches its not just to get map control back they always commit to them. They get upgrades to them, and they make a ton of them. I feel this is a very bad method and you shouldn't be doing this (unless he is going mech of course or he's being super greedy and you think you can bust him with a roach/ling/baneling attack).
But this is just going every zerg I have ever watched on stream when they open roaches they heavily commit. I don't know why they feel they have to but I think its not a good idea unless of course reasons I said before you are facing mech or he's being super greedy and you want to try to bust.
So that brings me to my roach build. You don't make many, you literally just get a few roaches to push his hellions back, maintain map control and take a faster third. You can do this without it hurting your economy or setting you back or even dying to a 2 base timing.
Early roaches also if you are completely not ready for a push by the terran or he's doing some funky thing you can make more roaches if you need it. They are a great early game unit for defensive purposes and don't take a ton of larva like early game lings do so you can get drones out if you are forced to make a few more roaches.
So now to the build order!
--------Build order--------
9 - overlord
10- drone scout (this is personal preference i'll explain later)
15 - hatchery
14-16- spawning pool (will explain this later as well)
16 or 17 (your preference) - overlord
as soon as pool finishes 4 lings and 2 queens (1 for each tower, 2 to scout around)
soon as both queens finish make 2 more
start 1 gas right as soon as you start your 3rd and 4'th queen
5:30-5:45 - third base
5:45-6:15 - roach warren
5:30-5:40 - first evo chamber
once third starts - take 2nd and third gas
as soon as roach warren finishes make roaches if he has made hellions, or wait until he pushes out if he tries a silly early game aggression
get ling speed with next 100 gas after roaches
Second evo chamber after ling speed
start 1/1 melee/carapace
go lair on next 100 gas
Due to the patch with the queen range buff the spine crawler is no longer necessary. Just open up 4 queens, still get the roach warren, but you don't need to rush roaches out or anything like you did before.
So now to explain why I do some of the things I do.
The 10 drone scout is to see if the terran opponent is either going a gas build or 2 rax. If I see a 2 rax I will make my pool at either 14 or 15. If I see gas I will always go 16-17 pool. If they go gas first they really can't punish you for it unless you let their 1-2 marines from 1 rax do more damage then it should.
4 queens are great, but roaches still have their uses. You still want to control the watch towers which you will want to do by taking it away from the hellions by making a couple roaches. There are also a lot of zergs skipping roaches now and then dying to 8+ hellions, this again hard counters that.
You should also be getting 1/1 before lair whether you are going mutalisks or infestors, upgrades are very important in zvt especially with the popularity of double ebay, if you skimp on upgrades by the time you have 1/1 he will have 2/2 with 3/3 on the way and unless you are far ahead you are going to lose.
Now with roaches do NOT get roach speed, waste of money and do not get +1 ranged again waste of money.
If you have any questions on these I will of course answer  .
--------The advantages--------
So what are some advantages to this build?
Faster third which is a better economy
Good defensive unit for early game portions.
map control. To put more on this you will know if your opponent is moving out. Have you seen the games where zerg loses to an attack they had no idea was coming? Lets take for example Puma vs Idra last bo5 they played. Puma with hellions had complete map control and Idra had no idea what he was doing. Puma does a crazy strong push that Idra did not see coming until it was at the edge of his creep that could not be spread due to the hellions.
With the roaches this will not happen to you (will it shouldn't unless you are being way passive with them or something). You should always know when a push is coming out and not be like "oh shit he's at the edge of my creep with a huge army and I just droned gg". I can't emphasize how important I think this is with early roach play.
--------The disadvantages--------
Slower lair which means slower mutalisks (or infestors if that's what you like).
Slower ling speed (not a big deal at all but this might scare some people you really don't need ling speed early if you have roaches)
Not really sure of any other disadvantages I can think of at the moment but those are the 2 that pop off in my head.
--------Replays--------
All these replays are from the korean server. These terrans were pretty good and this shows some nice macro games as well as the opening. There will be 3 replays.
http://www.mediafire.com/?wyoacf14t125xvz
http://www.mediafire.com/?o345o1wkej7rqoe (marauder/hellion all in)
Any questions, comments, concerns please feel free to post them I do reply to every question I can. Also any tips you want me to add or something feel free to suggest!
--------FAQ (Frequantly asked questions)--------
+ Show Spoiler +How do you feel this would hold up to the marauder hellion timing (1 base or 2 base)?. Do you reckon it might be enough to fall to that?
Its actually not bad at all to hold it. You have 1-2 spines, then can make a ton of roaches/lings should hold no problem. one of the replays shows this(binski light some guy I played no idea who he is). You will see me take a third, drone and still hold his push while being greedy while holding it.
How do you handle the 10 min marine/tank push? just roll over it with roach/ling?
Roach/ling/bling. I don't have to many roaches like I said before I don't feel you need it for the most part. You should be able to roll over it with the roaches you have made (shouldn't make more then original) and the ling/baneling. If you do what I do and flank (I use 2 control groups 1 half at my natural, the other half in a good position to where I can come from the back and front of the terran to crush the push).
what do you tend to do on Tal'Darim? (or a map with harder to take third
I still open roaches but I will go lair faster then normal and not take the third as fast until I either break down the rocks or I"ll take the further away third. Its a bit harder to get a fast third and have it be safe because of the possibility of drop play it would be hard to take the third in the spot closest to your main and defend it + your main + natural without him abusing the lack of mutalisks at the time and thus going up and down the cliff to the natural, main, etc. Its possible but I personally don't do it just because drops become way stronger until mutalisks come out.
Terran can get cloaked banshees and you won't be able to take a 3rd until you get mutas out. Which are gonna be super delayed.
After testing if the terran player is doing a reactor hellion expand into cloaked banshee your third base should be done before cloak is finished. I looked at some replays and looked at timing and cloak didn't come for a certain period of time so that my third was finished before it and thus could get spore crawlers down and will be done/almost done by the time the cloak finishes and is at the third.
Obviously if he is doing 1 base cloak banshee you should not even be taking a third because you know he's on one base whether or not you see what 1 base build he is doing taking a third can be super risky.
Won't this build be countered by fast 3 CC by the terran?
The short answer is no.
You should know if he takes the third to fast. If he is taking a third super greedy because of your fast third you can easily just mass a ton of roaches + ling/bane and bust him. Notice you have your roach warren out, you should have a baneling nest and you should have lair by the time he takes that third. His tank count will be low to where you can break him. You do have to notice this fast, if you see his third a minute or 2 after he took it then it is probably to late for you to change tactics and go roachl/ing/bling bust. So far against terrans who have done the fast 3CC and take the third very fast against this build I have busted them and am 3-0 with it so far int erms of busting them when I see them take a fast third.
At the risk of doing exactly that I will ask: how would this vary if you scouted 2 rax no gas? You mentioned the spawning pool timing - any other change? Do you still get the roaches?
If you see a 2 rax you should not rush roaches. There is no need for it obviously. A lot of terrans I play still get hellions after the 2 rax so I still get roaches even if they dont' go hellions because I want to get map control back. I delay roaches a decent amount as again no rush and you dont' want to set yourself behind. So I get a roach warren eventually and take map control back, take the third and what not still but it is a little delayed of course. If I took a decent amount of damage by losing drones I will void the roach warren all together and go 2 base muta/ling/bane.
Last edit: 2012-07-11 04:53:52 |
| | When I think of something else, something will go here |
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| Khainer Netherlands. January 27 2012 09:16. Posts 53 | Profile # |
| Love your guides, straight to the point and no bullshit theorycrafting. Keep em coming |
| | "Move or be moved" -Spawn |
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| MrCon France. January 27 2012 09:27. Posts 20823 | Profile # |
I agree 100% with this guide and especially the introduction part.
Each time I see a zerg (even a GSL zerg) make early roaches to defend hellions I'm glad, then 100% of the time they don't use it to defend hellions, they push with their roaches. It works or not, it's not the point. But the tech is not expensive, the roaches are not expensive, so why I never understood why they just didn't make 4-8 roaches just to be safe and take their 3rd before mutas.
And your introduction explains it perfectly, it's either pray for a hellion ling surround, make roaches but allin with them, or wait 10 minutes for mutas to take a 3rd.
Those 3 options makes no sense (well, the allin can make sense but it's not a stable way to play).
Well, I just paraphrased your intro, let's just say I strongly endorse this OP  |
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| heha Australia. January 27 2012 09:37. Posts 406 | Profile Blog # |
Mm, I like the idea of roaches to push back the early reactorhellions. It has always seemed to me that trying to get a surround with lings is fairly luck-based, and while most terran players don't pay that much attention to them for now, that may change in future. This seems like a far more reliable method of getting the third up indeed.
How do you feel this would hold up to the marauder hellion timing (1 base or 2 base)? A few early roaches will still harm your economy slightly, no matter what. Do you reckon it might be enough to fall to that? |
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| blade55555 United States. January 27 2012 09:40. Posts 14263 | Profile Blog # |
On January 27 2012 09:37 heha wrote:
Mm, I like the idea of roaches to push back the early reactorhellions. It has always seemed to me that trying to get a surround with lings is fairly luck-based, and while most terran players don't pay that much attention to them for now, that may change in future. This seems like a far more reliable method of getting the third up indeed.
How do you feel this would hold up to the marauder hellion timing (1 base or 2 base)? A few early roaches will still harm your economy slightly, no matter what. Do you reckon it might be enough to fall to that?
Its actually not bad at all to hold it. You have 2 spines, then can make a ton of roaches/lings should hold no problem. Actually I"ll upload a replay of someone doing a marauder/hellion all in vs me. (binski light). You will see me take a third, drone and still hold his push while being greedy while holding it.
Also while it "harms" your economy I guess its still better then making 20 lings which are larva inefficient and getting a way faster third .
http://www.mediafire.com/?o345o1wkej7rqoeLast edit: 2012-01-27 09:44:36 |
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| Gen_Syntax January 27 2012 09:43. Posts 25 | Profile # |
| thanks for this man. Usually struggle with roach opening, the 3rd timing is really good. |
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| joeyBanana Germany. January 27 2012 09:45. Posts 77 | Profile # |
| Very nice guide, thanks blade !! Just a question about the Ling Speed: To catch up the later Lair, wouldnt it make more sense to grab the speed after the Lair or is the time difference too big between the accumalation of another 100gas ? |
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| blade55555 United States. January 27 2012 09:47. Posts 14263 | Profile Blog # |
On January 27 2012 09:45 joeyBanana wrote:
Very nice guide, thanks blade !! Just a question about the Ling Speed: To catch up the later Lair, wouldnt it make more sense to grab the speed after the Lair or is the time difference too big between the accumalation of another 100gas ?
My main concern with getting ling speed after starting lair is it might not finish until to late. With doing it before lair my ling speed always finishes before that timing that they do on the korean server anyway. Not really much earlier of a timing you can do that wouldn't get rolled . |
| | When I think of something else, something will go here |
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| Fallians Canada. January 27 2012 09:47. Posts 233 | Profile Blog # |
| Very well done! Thank you :D |
| | If you attack before 15minutes.. It's cheese.... |
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| NoisyNinja United States. January 27 2012 10:17. Posts 982 | Profile # |
| And this is why team liquid is good. Guides like these. |
| | The world can go fuck itself. I'm not taking out my headphones. |
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| statikg Canada. January 27 2012 10:58. Posts 929 | Profile # |
| As a terran player I have mixed feelings about these builds, I feel like they are basically a blind counter to hellion openings, which its true, is a pretty safe guess. I guess what I am interested in is how much economy you feel you lose when you open with roaches. As I see these roach openings (usually more of the aggressive 7ish roach[ sort) more often, I have to decide how I want to adjust to the metgame. |
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| darkscream Canada. January 27 2012 11:13. Posts 2120 | Profile Blog # |
Yay, it's my favorite guide maker!
One question for you: I've been doing a late gas, 4queen opening in ZvT that works great -- Defend with 0 lings, basically, and power drones really hard. The drawback of the build is that you pretty much have to build your 3rd hatchery in-base as a macro hatch(which isn't THAT bad, i like mass ling builds). But as you say, with no gas and just lings its hard to assert map control.
I don't think this build can afford that 4th queen though, at least not at the standard early-ish timing. But, I have reservations about using gas on anything but my main plan (which is probably ling speed, +1 carapace, lair, or some such). My question is, Do you feel that buying roaches makes you extra vulnerable to anything in particular(Since you delay your tech)? For example, hellion->Banshees or some kind of dropship-elevator strat?
Hellion runbys and annoying elevator strats are what made me go for the spanishiwa build in the first place, 4 queens wreck a dropship pretty quick, and I don't like using simcity to block off my natural because after the early game, having a choke there is sort of shitty.Last edit: 2012-01-27 11:15:43 |
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| SweetNJoshSauce United States. January 27 2012 11:20. Posts 461 | Profile # |
| Why doesnt this guy have a star? |
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| Faulteh Canada. January 27 2012 11:36. Posts 47 | Profile # |
| How do you handle the 10 min marine/tank push? just roll over it with roach/ling? |
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| blade55555 United States. January 27 2012 11:47. Posts 14263 | Profile Blog # |
On January 27 2012 11:13 darkscream wrote:
Yay, it's my favorite guide maker!
One question for you: I've been doing a late gas, 4queen opening in ZvT that works great -- Defend with 0 lings, basically, and power drones really hard. The drawback of the build is that you pretty much have to build your 3rd hatchery in-base as a macro hatch(which isn't THAT bad, i like mass ling builds). But as you say, with no gas and just lings its hard to assert map control.
I don't think this build can afford that 4th queen though, at least not at the standard early-ish timing. But, I have reservations about using gas on anything but my main plan (which is probably ling speed, +1 carapace, lair, or some such). My question is, Do you feel that buying roaches makes you extra vulnerable to anything in particular(Since you delay your tech)? For example, hellion->Banshees or some kind of dropship-elevator strat?
Hellion runbys and annoying elevator strats are what made me go for the spanishiwa build in the first place, 4 queens wreck a dropship pretty quick, and I don't like using simcity to block off my natural because after the early game, having a choke there is sort of shitty.
Actually the 4 queen style is where I got this idea. I remember watching MVP vs Nestea on daybreak and nestea did 4 queens no gas. I just adjusted it to 3 queens (I feel you don't need 2 extra queens for creep spreading) and added the roach warren.
I do sim city and idk I don't have problems with it, as you'll see (if you watch the replays) I do sim city and later in the game it doesn't cause any problems for my units or anything.
You should sacrifice an overlord to see (and check to see if he took his expansion) to really know. I don't feel any more vulnerable to banshee's with 3 queens then 4. The main problem would be cloak which is why its essential to be ready to plop down a Spore if you feel he is doing a banshee build. Normally they don't hold back banshee's so you should be fine with 3 queens vs 1 banshee no problem (even 2 if you have a transfuse).
If I do see banshee's (cloak or not) I will make another queen out of one of my hatcheries and place a spore in main/natural just in case. But in short no I don't feel vulnerable to banshee's with 3 queens.
On January 27 2012 11:36 Faulteh wrote:
How do you handle the 10 min marine/tank push? just roll over it with roach/ling?
Roach/ling/bling. I don't have to many roaches like I said before I don't feel you need it for the most part. You should be able to roll over it with the roaches you have made (shouldn't make more then original) and the ling/baneling. If you do what I do and flank (I use 2 control groups 1 half at my natural, the other half in a good position to where I can come from the back and front of the terran to crush the push). |
| | When I think of something else, something will go here |
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| Amaterasu1234 United States. January 27 2012 11:56. Posts 317 | Profile # |
Is the spine(s) because you intend not to have roaches out in time for hellions? Cause roaches + spines seem a bit overkill for the usual 4-6 hellions.
Either way, thx for the guide. Lovin' it! |
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| blade55555 United States. January 27 2012 11:58. Posts 14263 | Profile Blog # |
On January 27 2012 11:56 Amaterasu1234 wrote:
Is the spine(s) because you intend not to have roaches out in time for hellions? Cause roaches + spines seem a bit overkill for the usual 4-6 hellions.
Either way, thx for the guide. Lovin' it!
Thats exactly it. I don't get roaches super early as that hurts the economy to much. From what I have done from replay watching with this version of roaches I maintain a 10-15 harvester lead until I have to stop droning or whatever. My previous way of when I did roaches I would only be ahead by 5 harvesters I think? Which isn't that great.
That is why I delay my gas till 5:15 or so depending on if I do 2 spines or 1 as I still get a lot of drones out |
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| Kisezik Australia. January 27 2012 13:16. Posts 69 | Profile # |
| against the 2 base terran push with 3 tanks+marines, would u defend this by producing more roaches or would you ignore roaches completely and defend this push with ling bane?, also on a map like shattered temple how do u take a third with rocks blocking the expansions? do u use your spines to atk the back rocks or do u use your roaches. |
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| blade55555 United States. January 27 2012 14:15. Posts 14263 | Profile Blog # |
On January 27 2012 13:16 Kisezik wrote:
against the 2 base terran push with 3 tanks+marines, would u defend this by producing more roaches or would you ignore roaches completely and defend this push with ling bane?, also on a map like shattered temple how do u take a third with rocks blocking the expansions? do u use your spines to atk the back rocks or do u use your roaches.
I do ling/bane I do not make any more roaches unless I feel I need them. On shattered eh sometimes i'll take down the rocks but I go lair a little faster and get mutalisks a bit faster then usual just because you have to kill rocks and far bases are hard to take early on. Especially on korea as terrans drop a ton early xD |
| | When I think of something else, something will go here |
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| phzbox Cape Verde. January 27 2012 14:51. Posts 38 | Profile # |
I've been doing a variant of this for a while. Basically, I get roach a bit sooner and harass/hit with them. It forces hellions to back and sometime force bunkers + cancel expo + scv/rine kill. I get around 5 while massing drones like crazy behind.
Also, I've come to like fighting with roaches in the begin/mid game. Even late game with broodlord, I still have roach to support. |
| | Rhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaoooooouwuz (Overlord spawning) |
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