Website Feedback
Closed Threads
IRC Chat
irc.quakenet.org #teamliquid
IRC Web ClientTeamSpeak 3 (73 users) | |
|
| getSome[703] United States. January 31 2012 07:49. Posts 753 | Profile Blog # |
On January 31 2012 07:41 Zairair wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 07:37 Legio wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:29 Zairair wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:27 Tobberoth wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:26 Zairair wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:26 Tobberoth wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:23 Zairair wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:23 Tobberoth wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:21 Zairair wrote:
Rick Perry forfeited his Republican Nomination because he was losing (as Stephano was already at a disadvantage and was losing because he was tired). Should Rick Perry be kicked out of Texas Governor because he was unprofessional (punishing Stephano and giving him 4th place when he earned 2nd place)?
Rick Perry gave up and gets nothing. In the same manner, it makes perfect sense that if you forfeit a tournament, you forfeit it and get nothing.
Gets nothing is not the same as "loses what he earned".
Of course he loses what he earned since he didn't play the finals, so he didn't earn it, he forfeited. It's like writing a report for school and demand some of the points because you wrote a few pages before you gave up. He didn't play through to the end, I see no reason for the tournament to respect his earlier wins when he can't respect that they want a proper final.
But Rick Perry did not lose anything that he earned. So why can't you boot him out of Texas?
Because he didn't earn anything as part of the Republican nomination? Your analogy is horrible.
So why are you guys such bad manner to Stephano? You guys are asking him to be burned at the stake and be labeled as unprofessional for his whole career? Is that justified?
Stephano is the very definition of unprofessional in Esports. He lied to his team and to Col to get a raise from both teams. He isn't investing in Starcraft, instead he is going to quit playing this year to go back to school. He forfeits a finals despite the organizers hard work of putting the event together. Tell me now, is there anyone on the scene that is less professional than this?
It's would have been more unprofessional to lose the match and die of exhaustion at his keyboard. Is that what you want? Or would you rather him not play in one of his tournaments? Or would you rather him try in both tournaments to get as high as you can!!! Last option please!
People are now suggesting that stephano was on the brink of dying from exhaustion from playing starcraft past his bedtime.
rofl |
| | Running Log! http://www.runningahead.com/logs/5081b4d7a4a94c5e8fa20b01e668dfb6/calendar |  |
|
|
 s4life Peru. January 31 2012 07:50. Posts 1519 | Profile # |
On January 31 2012 07:46 keioh wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 07:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:29 keioh wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:22 Itsmedudeman wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:18 s4life wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:16 Itsmedudeman wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:15 s4life wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:07 Itsmedudeman wrote:
On January 31 2012 06:19 s4life wrote:
On January 31 2012 06:03 nicknup wrote:
Tennis players forfeit games in tournaments they have commited to participate due to injuries and beeing tired and no one bash then.
Sure, things out of control are pretty reasonable excuses not to play -- like a pulled muscle f.e. -- but come on, Stephano accepted the invitation and knew perfectly well what he was getting into, he should have planned for it.. on top of that made wait for him an hour or so.. that's just him being completely unprofessional.
No, you can forfeit if you're exhausted and can't continue. Same thing as stephano.
Of course you can, but in that case you absolutely pay a price for it. A professional tennis player getting exhausted and forfeiting because of it is a huge deal, it means the player is pretty irresponsible with his training, preparation and on top of that show lack of temperance. He won't get any invites anytime soon.
No, actually, no one bitches about it. They point out that they have to work at their conditioning, but no one is gonna walk up to them and tell them they're unprofessional and should be punished.
Actually, yes, tired players who quit because of it absolutely lose the respect of their peers, fans and organizers.. that's how it works in any sport.
Djokovic retired from a major a few years back due to exhaustion. I don't ever remember a single article or thread written about how he's unprofessional and that he should be punished.
Yeah. Actually I really wonder how many TLers do or did a sport at a really high level, be it eSports or real sports, seeing how the well-being of the player is often completeley disregarded under the "HE OWES US THE SPECTACLE. HE MUST PLAY UNTIL HE DIES BY CARPAL TUNNEL. IT PLEASES US". This situation has already been discussed in a blog and I feel the overall agreement was "Stephano has more than the right to forfeit. He handled this a bit roughly. He could have anticipated that he'd make finals in both tournaments. ONOG took the best decision for the viewers, but not for the players, as Stephano won the 2nd place's prize. And 80% of the posters like drama more than reflexion"
I play and watch tennis, and I can tell you that there's a huge difference between "I practiced solely for a tennis Grand Slam for weeks and now I'm totally pissed that I need to retire from the match because I'm hurt, but that's what I have to do" and "I purposely scheduled two tournaments on the same day and I know there will be conflicts but I'll just forfeit from one later on because I know I won't have the stamina to compete... [ends up being the finals]".
There is indeed a big difference in the situation you mention, but I don't see it in this situation where Stephano was imo thinking more along the lines of : "I'll forfeit the tournament because I'm so tired that if I played it could be bad for my health, and I have other engagement for next week so it is a better option to retain some stamina."
That's probably what he was thinking.. which means he absolutely has no clue about what responsibility and professionalism mean. |
| |
|
| Zairair January 31 2012 07:50. Posts 82 | Profile # |
On January 31 2012 07:49 getSome[703] wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 07:41 Zairair wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:37 Legio wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:29 Zairair wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:27 Tobberoth wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:26 Zairair wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:26 Tobberoth wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:23 Zairair wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:23 Tobberoth wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:21 Zairair wrote:
Rick Perry forfeited his Republican Nomination because he was losing (as Stephano was already at a disadvantage and was losing because he was tired). Should Rick Perry be kicked out of Texas Governor because he was unprofessional (punishing Stephano and giving him 4th place when he earned 2nd place)?
Rick Perry gave up and gets nothing. In the same manner, it makes perfect sense that if you forfeit a tournament, you forfeit it and get nothing.
Gets nothing is not the same as "loses what he earned".
Of course he loses what he earned since he didn't play the finals, so he didn't earn it, he forfeited. It's like writing a report for school and demand some of the points because you wrote a few pages before you gave up. He didn't play through to the end, I see no reason for the tournament to respect his earlier wins when he can't respect that they want a proper final.
But Rick Perry did not lose anything that he earned. So why can't you boot him out of Texas?
Because he didn't earn anything as part of the Republican nomination? Your analogy is horrible.
So why are you guys such bad manner to Stephano? You guys are asking him to be burned at the stake and be labeled as unprofessional for his whole career? Is that justified?
Stephano is the very definition of unprofessional in Esports. He lied to his team and to Col to get a raise from both teams. He isn't investing in Starcraft, instead he is going to quit playing this year to go back to school. He forfeits a finals despite the organizers hard work of putting the event together. Tell me now, is there anyone on the scene that is less professional than this?
It's would have been more unprofessional to lose the match and die of exhaustion at his keyboard. Is that what you want? Or would you rather him not play in one of his tournaments? Or would you rather him try in both tournaments to get as high as you can!!! Last option please!
People are now suggesting that stephano was on the brink of dying from exhaustion from playing starcraft past his bedtime. rofl
How long do you think the human body can sustain itself without sleep? I'll tell you if you're right.Last edit: 2012-01-31 07:50:37 |
|
|
| Linwelin Ireland. January 31 2012 07:50. Posts 4156 | Profile # |
On January 31 2012 07:49 getSome[703] wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 07:41 Zairair wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:37 Legio wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:29 Zairair wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:27 Tobberoth wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:26 Zairair wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:26 Tobberoth wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:23 Zairair wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:23 Tobberoth wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:21 Zairair wrote:
Rick Perry forfeited his Republican Nomination because he was losing (as Stephano was already at a disadvantage and was losing because he was tired). Should Rick Perry be kicked out of Texas Governor because he was unprofessional (punishing Stephano and giving him 4th place when he earned 2nd place)?
Rick Perry gave up and gets nothing. In the same manner, it makes perfect sense that if you forfeit a tournament, you forfeit it and get nothing.
Gets nothing is not the same as "loses what he earned".
Of course he loses what he earned since he didn't play the finals, so he didn't earn it, he forfeited. It's like writing a report for school and demand some of the points because you wrote a few pages before you gave up. He didn't play through to the end, I see no reason for the tournament to respect his earlier wins when he can't respect that they want a proper final.
But Rick Perry did not lose anything that he earned. So why can't you boot him out of Texas?
Because he didn't earn anything as part of the Republican nomination? Your analogy is horrible.
So why are you guys such bad manner to Stephano? You guys are asking him to be burned at the stake and be labeled as unprofessional for his whole career? Is that justified?
Stephano is the very definition of unprofessional in Esports. He lied to his team and to Col to get a raise from both teams. He isn't investing in Starcraft, instead he is going to quit playing this year to go back to school. He forfeits a finals despite the organizers hard work of putting the event together. Tell me now, is there anyone on the scene that is less professional than this?
It's would have been more unprofessional to lose the match and die of exhaustion at his keyboard. Is that what you want? Or would you rather him not play in one of his tournaments? Or would you rather him try in both tournaments to get as high as you can!!! Last option please!
People are now suggesting that stephano was on the brink of dying from exhaustion from playing starcraft past his bedtime. rofl
Gamers are well known for their early bedtime |
| | ST_Rainbow <3 ST_Bomber #1 fan on Sundays, Tuesdays and Thursdays. Official member of the trinity of Bomberfans |  |
|
|
| GoonSack New Zealand. January 31 2012 07:50. Posts 36 | Profile # |
On January 31 2012 07:18 The Pale King wrote:
The arrogance of this player is unprecedented. Stephano is clearly not intelligent enough to understand that competetive essence is what provides the substance for entertainment; the audience invests themselves in these players to witness an act of determination. It is unfortunate that video games has a minor penchant for attracting players of such a low personal caliber. Video games are a colosseum sport in which the audience indulges in an experience of individual displays of character, whether through fantastic gameplay or through beyond normal levels of personal energy and dedication. Stephano has failed to accumulate the full set of variables in this equation, and will continue to alienate his spectators. I am not interested in someone who considers themself a professional under only specific circumstances. Stephano is a fraud, a charlatan parading in the colors of falsehood and laity! The right to compete is earned. Which is why I fully support ONOG's level headed decision making to support the audience as the core of video games. Entertainment, and suspension of disbelief itself, is a two way street.
Ahaha brilliant  |
| |
|
| Gheed United States. January 31 2012 07:50. Posts 962 | Profile Blog # |
On January 31 2012 07:49 Tobberoth wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 07:47 zomgE wrote:
I love when people are talking about legitimizing esports and in the same breath going "lol he was tierd from playing a vidiogame?? he doesn't know what true tired is!". Hahha. (Saw it alot in the LR or some other thread)
And so much drama when the player in question doesn't even give too much of a shit.
I'd say it's the exact opposite. If ESPORTs is supposed to be a legit sport, athletes of it are supposed to be professional, it's a job to them. You don't go home from work because you're tired, why should you quit a tournament because of it?
Yeah, if you were tired to the point of having trouble staying awake, you would go home from your job. You're not getting any good work done in that condition. |
| |
|
| CeriseCherries United States. January 31 2012 07:50. Posts 4704 | Profile Blog # |
On January 31 2012 07:45 raiZo wrote:
i cant believe this thread really. blaming stephano for this? blame the caster for blaming and flaming stephano. ONOG can just fix the match to another day, just simple. stephano is getting 4th? thats just a joke, catz the worst player in this planet is getting 3rd and illusion 2nd? oh wow. i´m so pissed right now.
if a player like stephano, who lives in EU have to play 3 AM...ah well nvm. i´m in rage.
stephano is a awesome guy, fail is this community and ONOG, oh i forgot this fail caster.
sorry for my bad english, hope you understand the most of it.
so bascially fuck off to the players who stuck it out to the end, the people who gave stephano the chance to win money in the first place and broadcasted his games, and bascially the whole community is fail because they are undergoing reasonable discussion about professionalism and debate? seems legit |
| | Remember, no matter where you go, there you are. |
|
|
| EleanorRIgby Canada. January 31 2012 07:51. Posts 3314 | Profile # |
omg rofl the rick perry campaign comparison LOL
seriously dude comon..... |
| |
|
| Darkhoarse United States. January 31 2012 07:51. Posts 578 | Profile # |
| Honestly I feel bad for Stephano, because he was technically voted in to this tourney by the fans but in the end, he accepted the invite and overbooked himself to play SC2 that day. Really, he should have made sure he could fit it all in his schedule first and I don't really like the ultimatum he gave to the tourney as if they need to work around his schedule. Either way, I don't see the need to move him to fourth. It doesnt matter too much to Stephano but still it makes him look inconsiderate. |
| | LiquidHerO - Polt - RootViBe - EGSuppyRC - EGDemuslimRC - StartaleBomber |  |
|
|
| dAPhREAk Nauru. January 31 2012 07:51. Posts 8698 | Profile Blog # |
On January 31 2012 07:50 Zairair wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 07:49 getSome[703] wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:41 Zairair wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:37 Legio wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:29 Zairair wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:27 Tobberoth wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:26 Zairair wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:26 Tobberoth wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:23 Zairair wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:23 Tobberoth wrote:
[quote]
Rick Perry gave up and gets nothing. In the same manner, it makes perfect sense that if you forfeit a tournament, you forfeit it and get nothing.
Gets nothing is not the same as "loses what he earned".
Of course he loses what he earned since he didn't play the finals, so he didn't earn it, he forfeited. It's like writing a report for school and demand some of the points because you wrote a few pages before you gave up. He didn't play through to the end, I see no reason for the tournament to respect his earlier wins when he can't respect that they want a proper final.
But Rick Perry did not lose anything that he earned. So why can't you boot him out of Texas?
Because he didn't earn anything as part of the Republican nomination? Your analogy is horrible.
So why are you guys such bad manner to Stephano? You guys are asking him to be burned at the stake and be labeled as unprofessional for his whole career? Is that justified?
Stephano is the very definition of unprofessional in Esports. He lied to his team and to Col to get a raise from both teams. He isn't investing in Starcraft, instead he is going to quit playing this year to go back to school. He forfeits a finals despite the organizers hard work of putting the event together. Tell me now, is there anyone on the scene that is less professional than this?
It's would have been more unprofessional to lose the match and die of exhaustion at his keyboard. Is that what you want? Or would you rather him not play in one of his tournaments? Or would you rather him try in both tournaments to get as high as you can!!! Last option please!
People are now suggesting that stephano was on the brink of dying from exhaustion from playing starcraft past his bedtime. rofl
How long do you think the human body can sustain itself without sleep? I'll tell you if you're right.
people can go days without sleep.
from wiki:
Randy Gardner holds the scientifically documented record for the longest period of time a human being has intentionally gone without sleep not using stimulants of any kind. Gardner stayed awake for 264 hours (11 days), breaking the previous record of 260 hours held by Tom Rounds of Honolulu.Last edit: 2012-01-31 07:52:42 |
| |
|
| Zairair January 31 2012 07:52. Posts 82 | Profile # |
On January 31 2012 07:51 EleanorRIgby wrote:
omg rofl the rick perry campaign comparison LOL
seriously dude comon.....
He was unprofessional... should've kept campaigning until he lost! Otherwise transfer his earned funds to other contenders! |
|
|
| Nazeron Canada. January 31 2012 07:52. Posts 1032 | Profile # |
| oh wow, sucks to see this happen |
| | (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |  |
|
|
| Tobberoth Sweden. January 31 2012 07:53. Posts 4514 | Profile # |
On January 31 2012 07:50 Gheed wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 07:49 Tobberoth wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:47 zomgE wrote:
I love when people are talking about legitimizing esports and in the same breath going "lol he was tierd from playing a vidiogame?? he doesn't know what true tired is!". Hahha. (Saw it alot in the LR or some other thread)
And so much drama when the player in question doesn't even give too much of a shit.
I'd say it's the exact opposite. If ESPORTs is supposed to be a legit sport, athletes of it are supposed to be professional, it's a job to them. You don't go home from work because you're tired, why should you quit a tournament because of it?
Yeah, if you were tired to the point of having trouble staying awake, you would go home from your job. You're not getting any good work done in that condition.
It wouldn't happen since I'm a professional. When I'm at my job, I'm expected to do my job and stay alert. If I can't do that, I'm obviously not being professional and as a result, I might look forward to losing my job. And that's not even comparable in the sense that this was the final of a tournament, so it's more comparable to being lead in a project and then going home from work because you're tired, leaving the rest of the project team high and dry. |
|
|
| Steveling Greece. January 31 2012 07:53. Posts 3093 | Profile Blog # |
| On a side note I find pretty funny the fact that all french are defending him, much like the swedes did with the Naniwa incident. |
| | The seven sins of society.. riches without labour, satisfaction without emotion, trade without ethos, knowledge without character, science without humanism, worship without sacrifice, politics without morals. |  |
|
|
| Itsmedudeman United States. January 31 2012 07:53. Posts 8493 | Profile Blog # |
On January 31 2012 07:51 dAPhREAk wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 07:50 Zairair wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:49 getSome[703] wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:41 Zairair wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:37 Legio wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:29 Zairair wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:27 Tobberoth wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:26 Zairair wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:26 Tobberoth wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:23 Zairair wrote:
[quote]
Gets nothing is not the same as "loses what he earned".
Of course he loses what he earned since he didn't play the finals, so he didn't earn it, he forfeited. It's like writing a report for school and demand some of the points because you wrote a few pages before you gave up. He didn't play through to the end, I see no reason for the tournament to respect his earlier wins when he can't respect that they want a proper final.
But Rick Perry did not lose anything that he earned. So why can't you boot him out of Texas?
Because he didn't earn anything as part of the Republican nomination? Your analogy is horrible.
So why are you guys such bad manner to Stephano? You guys are asking him to be burned at the stake and be labeled as unprofessional for his whole career? Is that justified?
Stephano is the very definition of unprofessional in Esports. He lied to his team and to Col to get a raise from both teams. He isn't investing in Starcraft, instead he is going to quit playing this year to go back to school. He forfeits a finals despite the organizers hard work of putting the event together. Tell me now, is there anyone on the scene that is less professional than this?
It's would have been more unprofessional to lose the match and die of exhaustion at his keyboard. Is that what you want? Or would you rather him not play in one of his tournaments? Or would you rather him try in both tournaments to get as high as you can!!! Last option please!
People are now suggesting that stephano was on the brink of dying from exhaustion from playing starcraft past his bedtime. rofl
How long do you think the human body can sustain itself without sleep? I'll tell you if you're right.
people can go days without sleep.
Doesn't mean you're fit or capable of doing anything that requires concentration just because you're not literaly unconscious. Unless you feel so lowly of sc2 that you can perform well under sleep deprivation.Last edit: 2012-01-31 07:54:25 |
| |
|
| gulati United States. January 31 2012 07:53. Posts 1641 | Profile Blog # |
A bit harsh by Ilyes, I can't lie. But he was being honest, was tired, and did not want to deal with anything. It's... kind of understandable. But not acceptable.
ONOG did the right thing. It's just sad. I am pretty confident anybody would have KILLEDDDDD to see that game. Ugh. What a sad way to end such a nice tournament ;\
Stephano, you're still God. Haha <3 |
| | 안녕히 가십시오/계십시오 엠비시 게임... ♥ BW4LYFE~ Official fan of TaekBangLeeSsang |  |
|
|
| Darkhoarse United States. January 31 2012 07:53. Posts 578 | Profile # |
On January 31 2012 07:45 raiZo wrote:
i cant believe this thread really. blaming stephano for this? blame the caster for blaming and flaming stephano. ONOG can just fix the match to another day, just simple. stephano is getting 4th? thats just a joke, catz the worst player in this planet is getting 3rd and illusion 2nd? oh wow. i´m so pissed right now.
if a player like stephano, who lives in EU have to play 3 AM...ah well nvm. i´m in rage.
stephano is a awesome guy, fail is this community and ONOG, oh i forgot this fail caster.
sorry for my bad english, hope you understand the most of it.
ONOG set their schedule awhile before the tourney, its stephano's fault for overbooking himself. I don't see how you expect a tournament to work around a player's schedule, that just doesn't make sense. Stephano got a big head and he payed for it. |
| | LiquidHerO - Polt - RootViBe - EGSuppyRC - EGDemuslimRC - StartaleBomber | |
|
|
| getSome[703] United States. January 31 2012 07:54. Posts 753 | Profile Blog # |
On January 31 2012 07:50 Zairair wrote:
Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 07:49 getSome[703] wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:41 Zairair wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:37 Legio wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:29 Zairair wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:27 Tobberoth wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:26 Zairair wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:26 Tobberoth wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:23 Zairair wrote:
On January 31 2012 07:23 Tobberoth wrote:
[quote]
Rick Perry gave up and gets nothing. In the same manner, it makes perfect sense that if you forfeit a tournament, you forfeit it and get nothing.
Gets nothing is not the same as "loses what he earned".
Of course he loses what he earned since he didn't play the finals, so he didn't earn it, he forfeited. It's like writing a report for school and demand some of the points because you wrote a few pages before you gave up. He didn't play through to the end, I see no reason for the tournament to respect his earlier wins when he can't respect that they want a proper final.
But Rick Perry did not lose anything that he earned. So why can't you boot him out of Texas?
Because he didn't earn anything as part of the Republican nomination? Your analogy is horrible.
So why are you guys such bad manner to Stephano? You guys are asking him to be burned at the stake and be labeled as unprofessional for his whole career? Is that justified?
Stephano is the very definition of unprofessional in Esports. He lied to his team and to Col to get a raise from both teams. He isn't investing in Starcraft, instead he is going to quit playing this year to go back to school. He forfeits a finals despite the organizers hard work of putting the event together. Tell me now, is there anyone on the scene that is less professional than this?
It's would have been more unprofessional to lose the match and die of exhaustion at his keyboard. Is that what you want? Or would you rather him not play in one of his tournaments? Or would you rather him try in both tournaments to get as high as you can!!! Last option please!
People are now suggesting that stephano was on the brink of dying from exhaustion from playing starcraft past his bedtime. rofl
How long do you think the human body can sustain itself without sleep? I'll tell you if you're right.
For longer than 24 hours. Which is much more than stephano would have been awake for assuming he had woken up at a reasonable time. And if he woke up at 1 in the morning the day before two tournaments that would likely go well into the night, it's his fault.
Am I right?
|
| | Running Log! http://www.runningahead.com/logs/5081b4d7a4a94c5e8fa20b01e668dfb6/calendar | |
|
|
| deth2munkies United States. January 31 2012 07:55. Posts 1808 | Profile Blog # |
| What the hell is wrong with forfeiting a game you're not physically able to play? The guy is up for over 12 hours playing and is exhausted, it's no different than trying to play while sick. Sure, he loses, sure he may get knocked down, but all this "OMG PUNISH HIM!!!1one1!11!!" is asinine. |
|
|
| JohnMatrix France. January 31 2012 07:55. Posts 1247 | Profile # |
stephano is ok with the consequence of his forfeit and reclaim nothing at this point. so what is the big deal now ?
hes blamed because hes too well known ? |
| |
|
| Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 Next | |
|
|
|
| |
|
Sidebar Settings...
|
Store
