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[D] Specific counter picks

Forum Index > League of Legends 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 All
 
 mr_tolkien   France. February 02 2012 02:10. Posts 3349
Profile Blog # 
So, here was my first shot at counter picking : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=287791

Now, I'd like to go more in specific champion counter-picking. I'd like to have kind of a database (with GOOD EXPLANATIONS on the match up) of counter picks, because I think that would help me understand the game better and the forces and weaknesses of every character.
As usual, I'm talking about lane counters, teamfights counters being a completly different problem.


- THE LIST -


Akali (solo lane)
+ Show Spoiler [Lee Sin, Riven] +

Alistar (support)
+ Show Spoiler [Janna] +
+ Show Spoiler [Vayne] +

Anivia (solo lane)
+ Show Spoiler [Cassio, Viktor] +

Annie (solo lane)
+ Show Spoiler [Zilean, Xerath, Galio] +

Ashe (duo lane as carry)
+ Show Spoiler +

Brand (solo lane)
+ Show Spoiler [Xerath, Morgana, Galio, Karthus] +

Cho’Gath (solo lane)
+ Show Spoiler [GP] +

Corki (solo lane)
+ Show Spoiler [Cassio, Anivia] +

Galio (solo lane)
+ Show Spoiler [Udyr, Garen, Lee] +

Gangplank (solo lane)
+ Show Spoiler [Riven, Udyr, Pantheon] +

Gragas (solo lane)
+ Show Spoiler [~Cassio, Vlad, Irelia, Riven, Trynda,…] +

Karthus Mid
+ Show Spoiler +

LeBlanc (solo lane)
+ Show Spoiler [Early pushers - Sion] +
+ Show Spoiler [Galio] +

Malzahar (solo lane)
+ Show Spoiler [Xerath] +

Morgana (solo lane)
+ Show Spoiler [Gragas, Viktor, ADs] +

Pantheon (solo lane)
+ Show Spoiler [Malphite and Cho'gath] +
+ Show Spoiler [Yorick] +

Rumble (solo lane)
+ Show Spoiler [Nasus] +

Singed (solo lane)
+ Show Spoiler [Ryze] +

Taric (support)
+ Show Spoiler [Alistar] +

Urgot (duo lane as carry)
+ Show Spoiler [Taric] +
+ Show Spoiler [Soraka] +

Vayne (duo lane as carry)
+ Show Spoiler [Ezreal] +
+ Show Spoiler [Urgot] +
+ Show Spoiler [Caitlyn] +

Vladimir (solo lane)
[spoiler=Cassio]Cassiopeia, with proper play, should destroy a vladimir in lane. Her longer range and ability to turn any trade into her favor with her E spam makes her perfect for taking advantage of vlad's early game weakness between levels 1-7, and taking command of the lane with her superior ability to trade, far longer range, and zone control with her w and q. An emphasis on proper play however. It is important to be able to make every trade count strongly in your favor when laning against vlad, because due to his sustain, it is nearly impossible to come back if he gets ahead of you.[/spoiler
+ Show Spoiler [Kassadin] +

Xerath (solo lane)
+ Show Spoiler [Ahri] +

Yorick (solo lane)
+ Show Spoiler [Nasus] +

So, I'll need help for a lot of champs I don't really know how to counter pick, and will keep the OP up to date as much as possible. Remember, the most detailed the match-up is, the best it is. This must take into account multiple possible builds and skill paths, as well as the dangerosity of applying the match up domination (typically LB is very safe in her positive match up, whereas Panth is kinda weak to jungle camping).
I'll begin with the few that I know and can explain in depth like Ahri VS Xerath, Panth VS Trynda/GP, ...
Counters should as well be listed per position, typically you can counter a few junglers, and a few chars can play in both solo and duo lanes (Kennen being the first example coming to mind).

Thank you very much for your help !
Last edit: 2012-02-05 19:43:36
French Caster - http://www.youtube.com/user/mrtolkien
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 barbsq   United States. February 02 2012 02:41. Posts 3039
Profile # 
well, i know some pantheon counters, Smash/loci may be able to elaborate on some specifics I miss. Also, should probably establish what a counter typically means (i.e. crushing and almost always denying farm and usually high kill threat, I don't really think that a champion that 'barely survives and outscales' should qualify as a 'counterpick') and IMO we should ALWAYS assume equal skill level (otherwise what is the point).

anyways

Pantheon:

+ Show Spoiler [Malphite and Cho'gath] +

+ Show Spoiler [Yorick] +
Last edit: 2012-02-02 02:46:01
Look at this guy, constantly diluting himself! (╮°-°)╮┳━┳ ( ╯°□°)╯ ┻━┻
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 Navi   Korea (South). February 02 2012 02:58. Posts 3269
Profile # 
Akali: (Top)
+ Show Spoiler +

Anivia: (Mid)
+ Show Spoiler +

Annie: (Mid)
+ Show Spoiler +

Ashe: (Mid / Top / Bottom)
+ Show Spoiler +

I will do at least a letter a day's worth of champions!
Last edit: 2012-02-02 07:09:27
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 Navi   Korea (South). February 02 2012 03:06. Posts 3269
Profile # 

On February 02 2012 02:41 barbsq wrote:
well, i know some pantheon counters, Smash/loci may be able to elaborate on some specifics I miss. Also, should probably establish what a counter typically means (i.e. crushing and almost always denying farm and usually high kill threat, I don't really think that a champion that 'barely survives and outscales' should qualify as a 'counterpick') and IMO we should ALWAYS assume equal skill level (otherwise what is the point).

anyways

Pantheon:

+ Show Spoiler [Malphite and Cho'gath] +

+ Show Spoiler [Yorick] +


"equal skill level" ~
a lot of this actually entails being able to change skill order / mastery / playstyle as needed against certain lanes. obviously there are the mechanics of dodging skill shots and reaction times with regards to escape spells, but given the large amount of point and click in this game, the former is just as important. While a note to the latter may not be the most helpful to a beginner ("dodge cass q and she can't trade with you until she gets her w") it is viable advice actually of the former for some champs (go vayne and save your q to dodge cass' q and counterharass).
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 napo   Romania. February 02 2012 03:13. Posts 350
Profile Blog # 
LeBlanc
+ Show Spoiler +
Though we strike at you from the shadows, do not think that we lack the courage to stand in the light.
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 barbsq   United States. February 02 2012 03:16. Posts 3039
Profile # 

On February 02 2012 03:06 Navi wrote:

Show nested quote +



"equal skill level" ~
a lot of this actually entails being able to change skill order / mastery / playstyle as needed against certain lanes. obviously there are the mechanics of dodging skill shots and reaction times with regards to escape spells, but given the large amount of point and click in this game, the former is just as important. While a note to the latter may not be the most helpful to a beginner ("dodge cass q and she can't trade with you until she gets her w") it is viable advice actually of the former for some champs (go vayne and save your q to dodge cass' q and counterharass).


both points are true. What i really wanted to establish is that you can't really debunk a champion counter solely on the evidence that a better player can win vs said champion if he is actually better at the game. Case in point: I say pretty specifically that malphite is a very strong counter to pantheon, yet I have seen smash beat (maybe closer to break even) a malph in lane because he was completely retarded. That doesn't debunk the assertion that malph is a counterpick to pantheon. Assuming equal skill level simply means (my interpretation of it anyways) that you can't use the evidence that you beat a champion solely due to the fact that he was retarded.

Applicable instances of 'equal skill level' in terms of dodging skill shots and proper pre-game i think is very much related to determining whether or not a champion should be considered a 'counter', and i believe that if a champion truely is a counter, then he will still have a large advantage even if you take such things into account.
Look at this guy, constantly diluting himself! (╮°-°)╮┳━┳ ( ╯°□°)╯ ┻━┻
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 Navi   Korea (South). February 02 2012 03:22. Posts 3269
Profile # 

On February 02 2012 03:16 barbsq wrote:

Show nested quote +



both points are true. What i really wanted to establish is that you can't really debunk a champion counter solely on the evidence that a better player can win vs said champion if he is actually better at the game. Case in point: I say pretty specifically that malphite is a very strong counter to pantheon, yet I have seen smash beat (maybe closer to break even) a malph in lane because he was completely retarded. That doesn't debunk the assertion that malph is a counterpick to pantheon. Assuming equal skill level simply means (my interpretation of it anyways) that you can't use the evidence that you beat a champion solely due to the fact that he was retarded.

Applicable instances of 'equal skill level' in terms of dodging skill shots and proper pre-game i think is very much related to determining whether or not a champion should be considered a 'counter', and i believe that if a champion truely is a counter, then he will still have a large advantage even if you take such things into account.


True. I agree with you. One note to make is that in the above situation, if the Vayne uses her q to harass before Cassiopeia attempts to q her, Cassiopeia will destroy her in the trade if she lands her q in return (except at level 1). For all we know the Vayne has insane reaction time and is mechanically extremely fluid. The best advice one could give that Vayne in this scenario is the above, to save her q for counterharass explicitly and to e Cass away when she throws her w onto Vayne. This may follow on "not being retarded" but what is obvious to one person is not to another, so this kind of advice is perfectly acceptable in my opinion.

I will personally focus on mid and top lane champions in this thread, bottom lane has many more variable factors, and the counters are extremely straightforward (Caitlyn vs. Vayne) and are only made more so or completely changed by the support pick. Such discussion probably deserves a thread of its own.
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 mr_tolkien   France. February 02 2012 03:26. Posts 3349
Profile Blog # 

On February 02 2012 02:41 barbsq wrote:
well, i know some pantheon counters, Smash/loci may be able to elaborate on some specifics I miss. Also, should probably establish what a counter typically means (i.e. crushing and almost always denying farm and usually high kill threat, I don't really think that a champion that 'barely survives and outscales' should qualify as a 'counterpick') and IMO we should ALWAYS assume equal skill level (otherwise what is the point).

As I said, counters can take multiple forms. But equal skill level should not be assumed : optimal skill level should be. Between two terrible players, who knows ? Maybe Annie counters Cassio

When I speak of counters I'm assuming both players are playing the match-up the way they should and take the best possible decisions.
As an example, Pantheon counters GP only if he doesn't max W and farms as cautiously possible while opening Cloth/Philo/Tabis/Chain mail. If GP is smart, Pantheon isn't that much of a hard counter in fact, whereas Riven or Trynda as an example can't beat Pantheon if both players play optimally.

On another note, thank you very much for your help Na'vi :o A top player insight will really add a lot to this topic !
Last edit: 2012-02-02 03:27:36
French Caster - http://www.youtube.com/user/mrtolkien
Old Post

 
 Keniji   Germany. February 02 2012 03:41. Posts 1327
Profile Blog # 
I can't really help with that list since I'm not such a good player, but I just thought about it yersterday. That it would be so awesome to have some kind of a list where you not only have counterpicks but also explaining how lanes should be played. And of course I thought there can't be a better place than TL to create such a thing.

It also fits in very well with the mammoth project neoillsuion started with the general role guides/descriptions imo.

Anyway thanks to anyone helping.

huehue

EUW: Dongrae (after the SC:BW player, not this gu guy)
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 Navi   Korea (South). February 02 2012 03:47. Posts 3269
Profile # 
as per a friend's request i will add in some junglers and jungle counters. obviously these "counterpicks" can be tenuous given on the pace of any given game (stronger mids etc.) but counters that work given non-hard countered lanes are wh at i will assume when i do these

edit: counters in jungling, maybe up to the second dragon at most. trundle for instance was an extreme counter pick to udyr as his e would destroy udyr's effectiveness in counterganking him and his ult wrecks udyr's basic premise (unkillable stunbot / turtle monstern) in teamfights; this counter is less harsh given how the new jungle suits udyr's clearing capabilities and trundle is less likely to be able to follow udyr to countergank efficiently.
Last edit: 2012-02-02 03:50:03
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 57 Corvette   Canada. February 02 2012 03:55. Posts 4058
Profile Blog # 
Leblanc

+ Show Spoiler [Galio] +

Galio
+ Show Spoiler [Udyr] +
"Amat Victoria Curam" - Victory Loves Preperation
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 SHr3DD3r   Pakistan. February 02 2012 03:56. Posts 1265
Profile # 
You should enter Garen and Renekton as counters to Akali. Even Cho.

Garen and Renekton just absolutely shit on her in lane. And Cho does well against her in lane but in teamfights the silence rapes her.
Hit them hard! Hit them low! - Forever a Bisu Fan!~!
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 barbsq   United States. February 02 2012 04:44. Posts 3039
Profile # 

On February 02 2012 03:26 mr_tolkien wrote:

Show nested quote +


As I said, counters can take multiple forms. But equal skill level should not be assumed : optimal skill level should be. Between two terrible players, who knows ? Maybe Annie counters Cassio

When I speak of counters I'm assuming both players are playing the match-up the way they should and take the best possible decisions.
As an example, Pantheon counters GP only if he doesn't max W and farms as cautiously possible while opening Cloth/Philo/Tabis/Chain mail. If GP is smart, Pantheon isn't that much of a hard counter in fact, whereas Riven or Trynda as an example can't beat Pantheon if both players play optimally.

On another note, thank you very much for your help Na'vi :o A top player insight will really add a lot to this topic !


hmm, I kno this isn't necessarily the point of your post (but i think this is really important to consider when talking about counters), but IMO you really have to factor in opportunity cost into that kind of thing. Yes, GP can probably barely survive if he opens like that and maxes w, but the cost of that is that GP has 0 damage and is building purely defensively from an armor perspective in order to still be on the back foot in lane and has minimal opportunity to be effective outside of his ult. That is usually indicative of a counter. I'll try to give some perspective on bot lane (altho I kno it's a very controversial topic here on TL, lol), since that's what i've largely been playing the past few months.

Vayne:

+ Show Spoiler [Ezreal] +

+ Show Spoiler [Urgot] +

+ Show Spoiler [Caitlyn] +

Alistar:

+ Show Spoiler [Janna] +

+ Show Spoiler [Vayne] +
Look at this guy, constantly diluting himself! (╮°-°)╮┳━┳ ( ╯°□°)╯ ┻━┻
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 sob3k   United States. February 02 2012 05:15. Posts 4674
Profile Blog # 
Malzahar

+ Show Spoiler +
In Hungry Hungry Hippos there are no such constraints—one can constantly attempt to collect marbles with one’s hippo, limited only by one’s hippo-levering capabilities.
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 Navi   Korea (South). February 02 2012 06:25. Posts 3269
Profile # 

On February 02 2012 03:56 SHr3DD3r wrote:
You should enter Garen and Renekton as counters to Akali. Even Cho.

Garen and Renekton just absolutely shit on her in lane. And Cho does well against her in lane but in teamfights the silence rapes her.


I'm all for including additional counters that others haven't thought of, but it would be nice if you expanded on those thoughts so that others can follow your line of reasoning.

I personally feel that if Akali opens with armor in the defensive tree, armor yellows, and cloth 5pot she can lane versus Garen and Renekton without any significant trouble. They are two top lane champions with relatively mediocre damage scaling (pure AD is difficult to build in competitive situations given the way they tend to / are expected to play in teamfights). Lee Sin has superior utility over the two as well as a more direct way to counter her veil (akali can escape their spins under veil by walking away from the center where most garens / renektons will sit spinning, or by escaping to a nearby bush) whereas Lee Sin will know immediately whether or not he has hit her and can adapt accordingly, as well as having a shield in case if Akali opts for ranged q harass at early levels.

Riven straight up outscales her in almost every aspect, and unlike both Renekton and Garen, Riven is effectively immune to all of Akali's harass due to the combination of her E and the fact that to get into range to proc her q, Akali must come into Riven's w range, even under shroud (unlike Renekton and Garen's targetted autoattack modifier CCs). Seeing as all three of these champs are full physical damage pre 6 (Riven is post 6 as well), if you were to run against any of these, I would definitely run the aforementioned setup. However, while Akali can force trades suitable for her against a Garen or Renekton running boots3 or dblade with this setup, she has trouble doing so against a Riven running cloth5 or even boots3, as she has the effective immunity to Akali's q and more overall damage to deal against a shrouded Akali as well. As a final note, she can also more easily escape ganks due to her superior mobility over the two proffered counters, who both push the lane in order to exert their dominance over Akali, making Riven a more complete counter than the other two.

Cho'Gath with the correct rune setup is just about a soft counter to most melee toplaners, as he can often outsustain them while being of similar or greater use in the first teamfight than most. With a 27 mres page he will of course do well in lane versus Akali.

ofc in solo queue an akali may run no armor and just get pooped on. but that's far from ideal
Last edit: 2012-02-02 06:35:01
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 alokin   Canada. February 02 2012 06:33. Posts 223
Profile # 
we should try to decide which are the best and well written descriptions for each counter pick and have it in the OP. It'd be much more convenient for people to use it as a quick counter-pick guide when in solo queue or something...

Wouldn't it be nice to just throw a link up in chat and be like ok counter with these guys: http://teamliqu......
twitch.tv/alokin1 come join me!
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 Navi   Korea (South). February 02 2012 06:43. Posts 3269
Profile # 
everyone should feel free to share their opinions and everyone should be able to critique each other's without fear of having his/her pick "decided on" or bashed for not choosing to blindly follow a counter. I may be horribly wrong and riven may be a terrible matchup vs akali. if someone can convince me so through numbers and/or practice, then i will gladly accept and learn from it it and we can take her off the counter list. from my limited experience in that lane though, it is more incredibly one sided than any other lane i have played vs akali.

i agree witih shr3dd3r that given the way that many akalis open boots 3 pots blindly that garen and renekton can beat akali in lane. I do not agree that if she sets up correctly that she will always be dominated as such. if shr3dd3r would like to prove me wrong or has further explanations that he would like to give that are intuitive, they should definitely be put on akali's list of counters.

Maybe expecting 27 armor / Mres against most laners is asking too much (i still think they are two of the best set ups for those looking for attrition or to survive laning). But even with just armor yellows and cloth5pot, the lane goes from dreadful to playable. Akali's strength is not pre 6 (especially with the nerfs), but rather with her unique mobility and high level q's damage upon squishies.
Last edit: 2012-02-02 06:45:40
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 emucxg   Finland. February 02 2012 06:54. Posts 3616
Profile Blog # 
Morgana counters all standard ap mid

User was warned for this post
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 bigwig123   February 02 2012 06:59. Posts 162
Profile Blog # 
can we get all of the updated ones moved to op plz this could be a pretty useful thread because people i play with are idiots
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 Navi   Korea (South). February 02 2012 07:06. Posts 3269
Profile # 

On February 02 2012 06:54 emucxg wrote:
Morgana counters all standard ap mid


cassio can push her out of lane given enough q's landed, and can push the wave before morgana with blue buff in such a way that morgana's pool can only be placed at tower (her pool has maximum efficiency if the creeps in it are standing still, in which case it can clear the whole wave with autos on the melees from level 3 pool onwards): i.e. cass w's then q's the following creeps, goes and steals her or morgana's wraiths, repeats, or ganks etc.
galio beats morgana on clearing efficiency and incidental harass, as in clearing the creeps if morgana comes near she can easily get hit by a q or e or both. (he also takes less damage from pool if binded / stunned with his w activated due to the heal from the DoT and the mres when they engage head on as well).
xerath has the range advantage, and with early harass, can build up for a safer level 6 kill than morgana (who needs to be in close proximity to secure such a kill). with blue buff he can push the wave similarly to cass, except from an even safer position, thus able to exert his influence elsewhere as well.

1 line statements are well intentioned im sure but if they are all people are going to contribute then this thread will hardly be any different from the various, "I got stomped in lane by X what counters?" and the subsequent 1 liner or two that follows in the GD, which this thread can be totally better than.
Last edit: 2012-02-02 07:12:18
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