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| Lysanias Netherlands. February 13 2012 23:02. Posts 5740 | Profile # |
Well grats to Alive, will see the matches tonight, but ... sounds like a easy $400 bugs for him.
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| mememolly February 13 2012 23:05. Posts 4222 | Profile # |
| can idra even be considered in the top 10 outside of korea? he hasn't won anything in ages and most of his "results" have come from favourable seeds based on his reputation, his "best foreigner" tag is quickly becoming nothing more than a rumour |
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| bgx Poland. February 13 2012 23:10. Posts 6516 | Profile # |
On February 13 2012 22:58 r4pture wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 22:30 squanzo wrote:
On February 13 2012 20:20 Krallman wrote:
Why do people even invite Idra to showmatches?
Not sure why you're asking this. Look at the amount of discussion going on for terribly played games. Could you imagine if it was a 7-game epic series?
The idea of "Any publicity is is good publicity" is completely wrong in eSports. People are talking a LOT about idra in this, yes, but not in a positive way. People are talking about how they don't want to watch him and may not watch NASL showmatches featuring him. I for one know I won't be supporting IdrA, EG, or any tourneys that support a player who obvious throws games for a quick buck. I see it as basically a kind of theft, to both the viewer and the company holding the match (in this case NASL). Which sucks, I actually like Machine, Demuslim, iNc etc in EG but I won't be buying a hoodie from them because their star is a personality I absolutely despise. Note I didn't like IdrA well before this, but this only compounds the issue. Also, IdrA has his own shirt, which sales directly support EG. Shit like this happens, less people want to buy that shirt, less money comes into EG. Honestly I hope IdrA continues his childish behavior (Throwing games, calling people terrible, complete lack of respect, constant BM) because eventually it'll come to bite him in the ass and it may make him actually get in line or get the hell out of the way.
And his own shirt has the "gracken" moniker, go figure. If we remember how it all went, everything bad is coined into success in Idra case, he just needs to remember not to go too far and thats all, everything inbetween is "publicity" success.
And im pretty sure that EG already knew what are they buying in the whole package, and the fact nothing changed after 1 year is kinda a proof to that.Last edit: 2012-02-13 23:12:36 |
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| GoSuChicken United States. February 13 2012 23:19. Posts 1341 | Profile Blog # |
| Sorry but it really does not seem like IdrAs Slayers practicing is paying off... |
| | || Team Liquid/HerO/Mvp/MKP/TLO/Symbol || |  |
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| floor exercise Canada. February 13 2012 23:21. Posts 5509 | Profile Blog # |
| Idra is like the white Sakuraba, except he's not going to get brain damaged/killed some day he is just going to lose repeatedly at a video game |
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| Dispersion Korea (South). February 13 2012 23:22. Posts 503 | Profile Blog # |
He looked better when he was in AZ beating Deezer and CombatEX every day...then he goes to Korea and instantly drops from GSL.
Obviously this isn't helping him. He needs a drastic shift in his style. He needs to build his playstyle around stopping early pressure because every Terran goes reactored Hellions, and a lot of Protosses know that a 6 gate or Stargate play will cripple or tilt IdrA so badly that it's practically an auto-win.
Yes, he's great in mid-late game, but just get an early game advantage and IdrA is gone. |
| | Don't worry. Taht's just Halo |  |
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| TheEvo United States. February 13 2012 23:27. Posts 23 | Profile # |
Add another to the list who hated seeing this. Stayed up to watch this match and was very disappointed. I can only imagine how the people who organized this feel. Such a let down.
Violet has easily passed Idra. How does that feel greggors? |
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| -stOpSKY- Canada. February 13 2012 23:41. Posts 481 | Profile # |
On February 13 2012 22:58 r4pture wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 22:30 squanzo wrote:
On February 13 2012 20:20 Krallman wrote:
Why do people even invite Idra to showmatches?
Not sure why you're asking this. Look at the amount of discussion going on for terribly played games. Could you imagine if it was a 7-game epic series?
The idea of "Any publicity is is good publicity" is completely wrong in eSports. People are talking a LOT about idra in this, yes, but not in a positive way. People are talking about how they don't want to watch him and may not watch NASL showmatches featuring him. I for one know I won't be supporting IdrA, EG, or any tourneys that support a player who obvious throws games for a quick buck. I see it as basically a kind of theft, to both the viewer and the company holding the match (in this case NASL). Which sucks, I actually like Machine, Demuslim, iNc etc in EG but I won't be buying a hoodie from them because their star is a personality I absolutely despise. Note I didn't like IdrA well before this, but this only compounds the issue. Also, IdrA has his own shirt, which sales directly support EG. Shit like this happens, less people want to buy that shirt, less money comes into EG. Honestly I hope IdrA continues his childish behavior (Throwing games, calling people terrible, complete lack of respect, constant BM) because eventually it'll come to bite him in the ass and it may make him actually get in line or get the hell out of the way.
You must be new to the SC scene in general. IdrA was like this back in BW and that is what attracts a lot of his fanbase is he is willing to speak his mind regardless of what his opinion is of that person. |
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| Billd Canada. February 14 2012 00:30. Posts 201 | Profile # |
On February 13 2012 21:51 zefreak wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 14:05 BronzeKnee wrote:
On February 13 2012 14:00 wanghis wrote:
On February 13 2012 13:59 BronzeKnee wrote:
On February 13 2012 13:55 Beakyboo wrote:
I'm sure he knows people want to see macro games out of him too. Like, it's a showmatch, he must be aware that the whole point is people want to see these games. Showing up and then deciding you don't actually want to play is really a big fuck you to everyone watching. It's hard to understand why he's even still doing this with that attitude.
There is such double standard here it is ridiculous, if I was a mod I would be handing out bans for player bashing. Imagine if this had been a best of three and Alive's first two cheeses failed badly. Would we be all over Alive, accusing him of not caring, throwing the match, not coming to play a macro game ect? No, so why are we accusing Idra? All this proved is that Alive is a better cheeser than Idra, since all the games were cheese. It was just as much Alive's fault that the games were cheese as it was Idra's. And that is the facts. Idra did not show up and not want to play, Alive showed up to cheese, and Idra decided to cheese in response. Hate them both (and hate cheese) or hate neither. The double standard is ridiculous.
Except Alive was using legitimate strategies and IdrA was 6 pooling while doing a bad job of it?
You can play Poker and win with "legit" strats, or you can win with luck. Alive was playing extremely risky, if you scout what he is doing and respond properly, you easily defeat it. He was going to need Idra to not respond and not scout it to win. He was lucky Idra did neither well. Now you could argue that since he won, the ends justify the means, and thus he looks brilliant, but what if he lost both of those games? Would you say "Except Idra was using legitimate strategies and Alive was all-inning and doing a bad job of it?" Would we be all over Alive, accusing him of not caring, throwing the match, not coming to play a macro game ect?
I just had to to respond to this post because, as a poker player, I think I know more about exploiting strategies and balancing ranges and how it applies to SC2. Idra's problem is that he is so exploitable that any early cheese is a legitimate strategy against him. An early cheese can be a great strategy against certain players and a horrible strategy against others. Alive's game 1 strategy was great against Idra because everyone knows he plays greedy and doesn't respond well to pressure. Idra doesn't successfully 'balance his range', or mix up his build orders. Playing solid starcraft doesn't mean only playing macro games, just as playing solid poker doesn't mean sitting around like a nit playing QQ and AK+. Truly solid play changes based on the opponent; if the opponent is playing tight, ABC poker than playing 'by the book' is actually incorrect. Letting Idra get to the mid/late game without putting pressure on his obvious weakness is not playing the game correctly. Alive is a good SC2 player, and like any game, SC2 is not about unit control or macro but about EXPLOITING your opponents weakness. Micro/macro is but a means to that end and Idra needs to change his understanding of the game if he is to be at all successful. We all saw what happened to Naniwa at Providence.. an unbalanced build opening range (going FFE every map) is POOR PLAY regardless of how good your micro/macro is and will be punished by players who understand this (Leenock).
Yup. This is by far the most logical and sensible post in this thread and should be something that the Starcraft 2 community accepts as a whole.
Poker was a great example but another that comes to mind for me is boxing. If a boxer suffers an injury early on, it only makes sense to attack that area for the rest of the fight, exploiting that clear weakness and reaping the benefits. I find this an excellent example because some may think attacking an injured area on a boxer is cowardly or not justifiable play, similar to how some view cheese. However, any experienced boxer or trainer will tell you that if you are given the opportunity to exploit a batch of hurt ribs on an opponent, you should take it.
If I ever met Idra on the ladder I would cheese him. Not to make him rage or to make a YouTube video about it, but to win. I know this is his weakness and I'm going to attack it.
Do you think NHL players in shootouts don't know the weaknesses on opposing goalies? They are going to shoot for and attack goalies based upon where they know they are weak. shooting on Roberto Luongo? Shoot glove!
I for one play super greedy on the ladder and a majority of my losses are to all ins or cheese. I actually try to mimic Idras early game. However, I am vulnerable I attacks during this time and I applaud my opponents for attacking me in that area if they see the opportunity. I too will all in if a Protoss or Terran severely skimps on defenses because I play to win and so should everyone else. |
| | @BilldSC I tweet about all things Starcraft 2! |
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| halfies United Kingdom. February 14 2012 00:45. Posts 318 | Profile # |
On February 13 2012 13:55 pt wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 13:54 Chaves wrote:
On February 13 2012 13:52 pt wrote:
is alive's cheese okay because it took longer to execute?
Just to be clear, ar you dating idra for how long? -.-'
just to be clear, you're talking shit and not actually trying to prove me wrong?
alives cheese was ok because it stood a chance of working. people are mad at idras lack of effort, not the fact that 6 pool is cheese. |
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| MrCon France. February 14 2012 00:50. Posts 20436 | Profile # |
The problem is that those are not isolated incidents anymore.
One year ago you'd have the occasional Idra early gg but he was still playing well in general.
Now if you watch the last 20 Idra's games, they're all the same bullshit.
His fans trying to rationalize all of this is what hurting the most imo. So Idra was right to do that because aLive 11/11'ed him ? And what about every single zerg, even foreign ones, who manage to not die from this and bring the game to the mid or late part ? What about every single zerg except Idra knows how to defend from the hellion build ? If you replace Idra with someone like even Destiny, the first 2 games will go at least to the midgame. Nobody but Idra dies to this. Losira often loses his hatch to the 11/11, he's notoriously bad at defending it, but he still win the game a good % of the time after losing his hatch.
Last year Idra had the skill excuse, now he's one of the worst players in the scene skill wise. He doesn't realize how lucky he is to be able to live in the Slayers house. This guy is a disgrace.Last edit: 2012-02-14 00:55:34 |
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| Mr Showtime United States. February 14 2012 00:59. Posts 1350 | Profile # |
On February 13 2012 14:36 Megabuster123 wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 14:33 Mr Showtime wrote:
On February 13 2012 14:25 wanghis wrote:
On February 13 2012 14:23 Mr Showtime wrote:
On February 13 2012 14:12 bennyaus wrote:
On February 13 2012 14:10 Mr Showtime wrote:
On February 13 2012 14:00 wanghis wrote:
On February 13 2012 13:59 BronzeKnee wrote:
On February 13 2012 13:55 Beakyboo wrote:
I'm sure he knows people want to see macro games out of him too. Like, it's a showmatch, he must be aware that the whole point is people want to see these games. Showing up and then deciding you don't actually want to play is really a big fuck you to everyone watching. It's hard to understand why he's even still doing this with that attitude.
There is such double standard here it is ridiculous, if I was a mod I would be handing out bans for player bashing. Imagine if this had been a best of three and Alive's first two cheeses failed badly. Would we be all over Alive, accusing him of not caring, throwing the match, not coming to play a macro game ect? No, so why are we accusing Idra? All this proved is that Alive is a better cheeser than Idra, since all the games were cheese. It was just as much Alive's fault that the games were cheese as it was Idra's. And that is the facts. Idra did not show up and not want to play, Alive showed up to cheese, and Idra decided to cheese in response. Hate them both (and hate cheese) or hate neither. The double standard is ridiculous.
Except Alive was using legitimate strategies and IdrA was 6 pooling while doing a bad job of it?
No, he's kinda right. Double 11 racks is about as cheesy as it gets for Terran. The only way to make it even more cheesy would be if he pulled all his SCVs at some point. Think of it this way, swap games 3&4 with games 1&2. IdrA 6pools in game one: Oh well. Sucks it didn't work. Sick sick defense by alive. 6pool in game 2: Tried to fool alive by doing the same build. Scouted and failed. Game 3: Hatch first. Lose to cheese. Game 4: Hatch first. Lose to semi-all-in. I'm not going to pretend that the 6pools weren't a result of IdrA being on tilt. They likely were (maybe not the crossfire game, but Dual Sight almost certainly). However, my point is that I kinda agree with BronzeKnee. There is a double standard here.
Hey guys, Let's construe the truth in such a manner so that IdrA seems like less of a bad guy. Signed, Irrational fans. Stop comparing 2base double reactor hellion with 6pool, and even 11/11 can't be compared with 6pool. 11/11 at least has a history of working and makes it a decent choice in a BoX series.
Nobody is comparing a 6pool to a double reactor hellion. Hey guys, Let's read so far into a post that we can start making shit up. Signed, The Angry Ignoramus Oh look.... I can do that too.
Except that he was calling a 9 minute double reactor hellion push cheese and thus comparing it to a 6 pool?
Double reactor hellion is not cheese, was not referred to as cheese, and will never be called cheese. It is, however, a semi-all-in play (as was clearly stated before. but apparently not clear enough for you). If it succeeds, you win. If it fails, you pretty much lose. It's not over, but the Zerg needs to really fuck up bad if you want to win.
In terms of why people dislike cheese, a double factory hellion all-in is arguably the same thing. Especially since most people have a fairly vague definition of cheese. The point is Alive played 2 semi-bullshit games, and then Idra said fuck it.
It's a bo7 showmatch and alive starts with the cheesiest play a terran can do (minus pulling scvs) and then follows it up with the double reactor hellion which is essentially all-in, but because it's terran, they can hide behind bunkers and MULEs to get themself back int he game if the zerg fucks up. IdrA followed up that (semi)-bullshit with a 6 pool to try to catch alive off guard. He succeeds and then alive pulls one of the sickest defenses I've ever seen against a 6pool that wasn't denied by some sort of wall-off. Definitely not going to defend a second 6pool. That was 100% IdrA on tilt and I did not want to see that as the final game. |
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| Orzabal France. February 14 2012 01:00. Posts 273 | Profile # |
I agree with MrCon and zefreak.
The mindset of Idra suffer from lack of flexibility. If he thinks he made a mistake he GG.
He is also too predictible, to readable, to rigid.
It is a shame because he is very clever, and his understanding of the game is above many progamer.
Last edit: 2012-02-14 01:02:07 |
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| themask4f February 14 2012 01:10. Posts 138 | Profile # |
On February 13 2012 23:05 mememolly wrote:
can idra even be considered in the top 10 outside of korea? he hasn't won anything in ages and most of his "results" have come from favourable seeds based on his reputation, his "best foreigner" tag is quickly becoming nothing more than a rumour
that awkward moment when you realise sc2 is more of a popularity contest than a skill competition |
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| themask4f February 14 2012 01:13. Posts 138 | Profile # |
On February 14 2012 01:00 Orzabal wrote:
I agree with MrCon and zefreak.
The mindset of Idra suffer from lack of flexibility. If he thinks he made a mistake he GG.
He is also too predictible, to readable, to rigid.
It is a shame because he is very clever, and his understanding of the game is above many progamer.
I get so annoyed every time I hear that...hes just bad, accept it. He's not the genius that you think he is that would win everything would he fix a couple things. You fanboys can be so irritant :s |
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| eloist United States. February 14 2012 01:15. Posts 1015 | Profile # |
On February 13 2012 23:05 mememolly wrote:
can idra even be considered in the top 10 outside of korea? he hasn't won anything in ages and most of his "results" have come from favourable seeds based on his reputation, his "best foreigner" tag is quickly becoming nothing more than a rumour
His last tournament wins are not that old. Winning anything still puts him above just about most other players. |
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 PureBalls Austria. February 14 2012 01:21. Posts 383 | Profile # |
On February 14 2012 00:50 MrCon wrote:
The problem is that those are not isolated incidents anymore.
One year ago you'd have the occasional Idra early gg but he was still playing well in general.
Now if you watch the last 20 Idra's games, they're all the same bullshit.
His fans trying to rationalize all of this is what hurting the most imo. So Idra was right to do that because aLive 11/11'ed him ? And what about every single zerg, even foreign ones, who manage to not die from this and bring the game to the mid or late part ? What about every single zerg except Idra knows how to defend from the hellion build ? If you replace Idra with someone like even Destiny, the first 2 games will go at least to the midgame. Nobody but Idra dies to this. Losira often loses his hatch to the 11/11, he's notoriously bad at defending it, but he still win the game a good % of the time after losing his hatch.
Last year Idra had the skill excuse, now he's one of the worst players in the scene skill wise. He doesn't realize how lucky he is to be able to live in the Slayers house. This guy is a disgrace.
Couldnt agree more.
Idra dosnt deserve to have any fans. The fact, that this guy, who has no competitive spirit and 0 showman personality has so many fans, while at the same time cool players receive no love, makes me lose fate in humanity and not want to live on this planet anymore.  |
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| CajunMan United States. February 14 2012 01:21. Posts 801 | Profile # |
On February 13 2012 22:12 bouhko wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 21:51 zefreak wrote:
On February 13 2012 14:05 BronzeKnee wrote:
On February 13 2012 14:00 wanghis wrote:
On February 13 2012 13:59 BronzeKnee wrote:
On February 13 2012 13:55 Beakyboo wrote:
I'm sure he knows people want to see macro games out of him too. Like, it's a showmatch, he must be aware that the whole point is people want to see these games. Showing up and then deciding you don't actually want to play is really a big fuck you to everyone watching. It's hard to understand why he's even still doing this with that attitude.
There is such double standard here it is ridiculous, if I was a mod I would be handing out bans for player bashing. Imagine if this had been a best of three and Alive's first two cheeses failed badly. Would we be all over Alive, accusing him of not caring, throwing the match, not coming to play a macro game ect? No, so why are we accusing Idra? All this proved is that Alive is a better cheeser than Idra, since all the games were cheese. It was just as much Alive's fault that the games were cheese as it was Idra's. And that is the facts. Idra did not show up and not want to play, Alive showed up to cheese, and Idra decided to cheese in response. Hate them both (and hate cheese) or hate neither. The double standard is ridiculous.
Except Alive was using legitimate strategies and IdrA was 6 pooling while doing a bad job of it?
You can play Poker and win with "legit" strats, or you can win with luck. Alive was playing extremely risky, if you scout what he is doing and respond properly, you easily defeat it. He was going to need Idra to not respond and not scout it to win. He was lucky Idra did neither well. Now you could argue that since he won, the ends justify the means, and thus he looks brilliant, but what if he lost both of those games? Would you say "Except Idra was using legitimate strategies and Alive was all-inning and doing a bad job of it?" Would we be all over Alive, accusing him of not caring, throwing the match, not coming to play a macro game ect?
I just had to to respond to this post because, as a poker player, I think I know more about exploiting strategies and balancing ranges and how it applies to SC2. Idra's problem is that he is so exploitable that any early cheese is a legitimate strategy against him. An early cheese can be a great strategy against certain players and a horrible strategy against others. Alive's game 1 strategy was great against Idra because everyone knows he plays greedy and doesn't respond well to pressure. Idra doesn't successfully 'balance his range', or mix up his build orders. Playing solid starcraft doesn't mean only playing macro games, just as playing solid poker doesn't mean sitting around like a nit playing QQ and AK+. Truly solid play changes based on the opponent; if the opponent is playing tight, ABC poker than playing 'by the book' is actually incorrect. Letting Idra get to the mid/late game without putting pressure on his obvious weakness is not playing the game correctly. Alive is a good SC2 player, and like any game, SC2 is not about unit control or macro but about EXPLOITING your opponents weakness. Micro/macro is but a means to that end and Idra needs to change his understanding of the game if he is to be at all successful. We all saw what happened to Naniwa at Providence.. an unbalanced build opening range (going FFE every map) is POOR PLAY regardless of how good your micro/macro is and will be punished by players who understand this (Leenock).
This. Thousand times.
Ya that's pretty correct but it was a show match your not suppose to go allin 2 games in a row and expect yourself to be taken serious sure throw in 1 to keep your opponent honest but really? This isn't for 10k or some huge tournament this is really just to expose your play to new viewers and get a little cash on side (win or lose) I understand what Idra did completely I personally would have dropped after game 2 and just said no to more games with him if I wanted to be cheesed every game I'd go on the Korean ladder.
On February 14 2012 01:21 PureBalls wrote:Couldnt agree more. Idra dosnt deserve to have any fans. The fact, that this guy, who has no competitive spirit and 0 showman personality has so many fans, while at the same time cool players receive no love, makes me lose fate in humanity and not want to live on this planet anymore.
Haters gonna hate.Last edit: 2012-02-14 01:22:36 |
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| Defacer Canada. February 14 2012 01:23. Posts 4812 | Profile Blog # |
On February 13 2012 23:27 TheEvo wrote:
Add another to the list who hated seeing this. Stayed up to watch this match and was very disappointed. I can only imagine how the people who organized this feel. Such a let down.
Violet has easily passed Idra. How does that feel greggors?
TBH, I'm an IdrA fan but I'm getting pretty tired when going out of my way to watch a showmatch and him giving up halfway through. It just feels like I'm seen him pull this BS many times before.
I hope IdrA does well, but I also hope leagues smarten up and start inviting players that enjoy competition to play show matches.
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| Seraphone United Kingdom. February 14 2012 01:26. Posts 1219 | Profile # |
On February 14 2012 01:15 eloist wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 23:05 mememolly wrote:
can idra even be considered in the top 10 outside of korea? he hasn't won anything in ages and most of his "results" have come from favourable seeds based on his reputation, his "best foreigner" tag is quickly becoming nothing more than a rumour
His last tournament wins are not that old. Winning anything still puts him above just about most other players.
I'm no Idra fan but I have to agree with this. Even though Idra has been playing terribly for a while he's still won multiple LAN tournaments (some of them fairly recent) and placed well in several recent MLG's.
He's in a slump and maybe he will never get out of it, but he still has better overall results than basically every non Korean player not called Huk or Stephano.
That said Idra will never be a top player and will only decline from here. He micro and decision making have been abysmal for a long time, he's only competent in one matchup (and even then 4-0 vs Taeja and 4-0 vs Alive suggest he can't compete in ZvT against Code S level Koreans), his ZvZ is pretty poor and his ZvP is atrocious and he lacks the mentality of a champion. |
| | Mvp, Nestea, Leenock, MC, Oz, Jjakji! |  |
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