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| sc2no Norway. April 23 2012 06:51. Posts 15 | Profile # |
Still a solid wall though.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/aaFKF.jpg) Last edit: 2012-04-23 06:51:55 |
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| Coramoor Canada. April 23 2012 06:51. Posts 444 | Profile Blog # |
On April 23 2012 06:50 Tivoniol wrote:you can still drop the supply depot 2 hexes down for a full wall off with the same buildings.
you shouldn't have to though i suppose it the point and a different position creates different vulerabilities |
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| Jessen Denmark. April 23 2012 06:53. Posts 20 | Profile # |
On April 23 2012 06:50 Tivoniol wrote:
you can still drop the supply depot 2 hexes down for a full wall off with the same buildings.
But doubt that Thorzain will settle for that during a finals game. Not really a chance you would like to take. So if he experienced that when building his wall, it is fully understandable. Aswell as why he didn't say anything after playing on it earlier or before this game... |
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| jeeneeus April 23 2012 06:53. Posts 1100 | Profile Blog # |
| Wait so is that terrain you can walk over but can't build buildings on? Wouldn't that be super useful on the bottom of ramps instead of those neutral supply depots? |
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| tnud Sweden. April 23 2012 06:55. Posts 2227 | Profile Blog # |
Well this explains why he didn't find it in his previous game on this map. Probably spawned somewhere else and noone walls off another main lol.
@starcraft2dotno I doubt he thought of that during game 2 in a finals on home turf.
"Can't wall, what is this. PAUSE"
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| | - ಠ_ಠ - | disinfect wrote: AHAHHAHAHA 2DG FUCK ME ALREADY. |
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| THF United Kingdom. April 23 2012 06:55. Posts 15 | Profile # |
| Those neutral supply depots are there so you can't build there at the start of the game (ie. protoss/terran walling his opponent in his main). It can be destroyed and you can build on that spot later on. |
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| TheAwesomeAll Netherlands. April 23 2012 06:56. Posts 1548 | Profile # |
On April 23 2012 06:53 jeeneeus wrote:
Wait so is that terrain you can walk over but can't build buildings on? Wouldn't that be super useful on the bottom of ramps instead of those neutral supply depots?
a dropped down supply depot has the same effect and makes it more visual. You wouldnt want people to commit to 2 rax thinking you could wall of the ramp and then discover there is some invisible blocker.
Thats why the depot is perfect for this, also the depot can be killed of by the respective owner of the ramp later on. |
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| jeeneeus April 23 2012 06:57. Posts 1100 | Profile Blog # |
It's so ugly though  . But this is probably the wrong thread to discuss that. |
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| EatThePath United States. April 23 2012 07:02. Posts 2465 | Profile Blog # |
On April 23 2012 06:47 prodiG wrote:
Fixed, uploading now - The generator doodad just needed to have its pathing footprint disabled despite the editor not indicating it was a problem. I honestly don't know how we missed this in testing but rest assured it will never happen again, we're tightening our testing protocols a LOT more after this given how unreliable the editor can be for information like this.
The footprint for doodads (and everything else) is not applied until they are loaded when the game starts, overwriting painted pathing. This is why you can't detect pathing problems due to footprints unless you're in a test or real game. Placing units/buildings in the editor does not show you where you have footprint blockage. (Same thing happened on your rocky beaches on the early version of that other map several months ago.)
imo all pathing should be painted and all doodads should be set to no-footprint, otherwise you deal with multiple layers of sometimes conflicting pathing information.
Really unfortunate didn't get to see that game, sry ESV and prodig. =[ |
| | Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE |
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| oni_link Germany. April 23 2012 07:05. Posts 135 | Profile # |
On April 23 2012 06:50 Tivoniol wrote:you can still drop the supply depot 2 hexes down for a full wall off with the same buildings.
in TvT yes, but in ZvT lings will squeeze through diagonal holes. |
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| prodiG Canada. April 23 2012 07:11. Posts 1993 | Profile Blog # |
On April 23 2012 07:02 EatThePath wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 06:47 prodiG wrote:
Fixed, uploading now - The generator doodad just needed to have its pathing footprint disabled despite the editor not indicating it was a problem. I honestly don't know how we missed this in testing but rest assured it will never happen again, we're tightening our testing protocols a LOT more after this given how unreliable the editor can be for information like this.
The footprint for doodads (and everything else) is not applied until they are loaded when the game starts, overwriting painted pathing. This is why you can't detect pathing problems due to footprints unless you're in a test or real game. Placing units/buildings in the editor does not show you where you have footprint blockage. (Same thing happened on your rocky beaches on the early version of that other map several months ago.) imo all pathing should be painted and all doodads should be set to no-footprint, otherwise you deal with multiple layers of sometimes conflicting pathing information. Really unfortunate didn't get to see that game, sry ESV and prodig. =[
That's probably the best straight-forward solution, yeah. Pathing paint has a great way of not showing up in the editor for me half the time either so I still think it's equally unreliable. The terrain in the editor appears as red/unpathable on the same level of terrain, not the level above which is what happened in the case of this 2x2 generator doodad - it influenced the pathing on the above cliff level without an in-editor visual representation.
At the end of the day, the lesson to be learned here is the editor has many shortcomings and they need to be accounted for in testing. I tested the terrain geometry of the ramps themselves originally before applying doodads to make sure the space behind the ramp was as intended but didn't test every single spawn location and ramp.You can place blame on the editor but at the end of the day it was my fault for not testing this location correctly and I apologize to Thorzain, Polt, Dreamhack and everyone watching at home and sincerely hope that this does not affect your impression of ESV in the future. We are actively working to impose even more strict testing requirements before tagging a map "ESV" in the future.Last edit: 2012-04-23 07:17:00 |
| | ESV Mapmaking Team || http://twitter.com/prodiGsc || Real talk, I don't have time to sugar-coat it for you sir |
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 Random_Guy09 Canada. April 23 2012 07:40. Posts 800 | Profile # |
On April 23 2012 07:11 prodiG wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 07:02 EatThePath wrote:
On April 23 2012 06:47 prodiG wrote:
Fixed, uploading now - The generator doodad just needed to have its pathing footprint disabled despite the editor not indicating it was a problem. I honestly don't know how we missed this in testing but rest assured it will never happen again, we're tightening our testing protocols a LOT more after this given how unreliable the editor can be for information like this.
The footprint for doodads (and everything else) is not applied until they are loaded when the game starts, overwriting painted pathing. This is why you can't detect pathing problems due to footprints unless you're in a test or real game. Placing units/buildings in the editor does not show you where you have footprint blockage. (Same thing happened on your rocky beaches on the early version of that other map several months ago.) imo all pathing should be painted and all doodads should be set to no-footprint, otherwise you deal with multiple layers of sometimes conflicting pathing information. Really unfortunate didn't get to see that game, sry ESV and prodig. =[
That's probably the best straight-forward solution, yeah. Pathing paint has a great way of not showing up in the editor for me half the time either so I still think it's equally unreliable. The terrain in the editor appears as red/unpathable on the same level of terrain, not the level above which is what happened in the case of this 2x2 generator doodad - it influenced the pathing on the above cliff level without an in-editor visual representation. At the end of the day, the lesson to be learned here is the editor has many shortcomings and they need to be accounted for in testing. I tested the terrain geometry of the ramps themselves originally before applying doodads to make sure the space behind the ramp was as intended but didn't test every single spawn location and ramp.You can place blame on the editor but at the end of the day it was my fault for not testing this location correctly and I apologize to Thorzain, Polt, Dreamhack and everyone watching at home and sincerely hope that this does not affect your impression of ESV in the future. We are actively working to impose even more strict testing requirements before tagging a map "ESV" in the future.
Problem can be fixed as you guys will do at least someone found it. Your a human being sometimes you make a mistake. We're not robots that can be programmed to do everything perfectly. Shouldn't be a lot of flaming to come from it. At least now you can add that to your check list of things to do as a map tester. Hopefully you don't get discouraged about this one little bug that was found and keep making maps. :D |
| | Grubby|Liquid`HerO|ST_Squirtle|ST_PartinG|CreatorPrime Na'Vi |
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| Diamond United States. April 23 2012 07:43. Posts 9014 | Profile Blog # |
On April 23 2012 07:40 Random_Guy09 wrote:
Problem can be fixed as you guys will do at least someone found it. Your a human being sometimes you make a mistake. We're not robots that can be programmed to do everything perfectly. Shouldn't be a lot of flaming to come from it. At least now you can add that to your check list of things to do as a map tester. Hopefully you don't get discouraged about this one little bug that was found and keep making maps. :D
I agree mistakes happen, but with our maps being used worldwide we need to implement stricter testing. It's pretty strong testing as is but some simple things like making sure wall offs work right were getting skipped.
We will fix it, and we will learn from it  |
| | Check out ESV TV at http://www.esvtv.com ****** TaeJa, he's pretty good. |
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| Trufflez Australia. April 23 2012 08:42. Posts 170 | Profile Blog # |
| The only issue I find is the expos behind the thirds... siege abuse to the max. |
| | qxc | Nada | NesTea | Fantasy | Jangbi | BoxeR | Life | MVP | in that order |
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| Gentso United States. April 23 2012 10:15. Posts 1108 | Profile # |
| I dislike the fourth design. Half the time it's actually a bad idea to attack it because there's only one entrance/exit and it's SO big. Sandwiching units in there just seems like something that's too strong of a defense for a base like a fourth. |
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| HuRoMap Korea (South). April 23 2012 13:25. Posts 5 | Profile # |
| Second resources fields are very dangerous. Because of the 2nd floor behind them. If 1 time vs 11 time, 1 time can't get there, and 3 time resources field that he don't want to get because it is so far from main base. |
| | Another Map, Another thinking, Another play, and... toss imba |
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| prodiG Canada. April 23 2012 13:56. Posts 1993 | Profile Blog # |
On April 23 2012 13:25 HuRoMap wrote:
Second resources fields are very dangerous. Because of the 2nd floor behind them. If 1 time vs 11 time, 1 time can't get there, and 3 time resources field that he don't want to get because it is so far from main base.
I disagree. In this scenario, the 3'oclock was designed in such a way that you would still have to be physically controlling the same amount of space on the map in order to hold the expansion safely as you would by taking the lowground 3rd expansion. The key is the Xel'Naga Towers. They are positioned in such a way that when taking a third expansion, having your army out on the map is absolutely mandatory in order to keep the expansion alive. The idea is that this will lead into intense games around that third base timing and stay intense until the end (and I think the ESVTV Korean Weekly and Dreamhack this weekend has shown that this effect is achieved quite well).
You are right that they are dangerous. They were intended to be dangerous. The map hinges on not-so-safe third expansions that forces players to be active on the map instead of parking their army between their 3rd and nat until they are maxed and 3/3 ups.
You are also correct in that the 3'oclock expansion is quite far from the main base. This is intended to be offset by the fact that this is a dead-end expansion and if you control the ramp leading into this area, the expansion is not vulnerable to attacks by ground and can only be hit by some form of air circling around the outer rim of the map, outside the Xel'Naga Tower's control range. When players commit ground forces to attacking this expansion, almost every time I've seen those units will not make it out of the area alive as the defending player simply waits belwo the ramp for the army to come out.Last edit: 2012-04-23 14:03:18 |
| | ESV Mapmaking Team || http://twitter.com/prodiGsc || Real talk, I don't have time to sugar-coat it for you sir |
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| DYEAlabaster Canada. April 24 2012 18:17. Posts 992 | Profile Blog # |
On April 23 2012 07:43 Diamond wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 07:40 Random_Guy09 wrote:
Problem can be fixed as you guys will do at least someone found it. Your a human being sometimes you make a mistake. We're not robots that can be programmed to do everything perfectly. Shouldn't be a lot of flaming to come from it. At least now you can add that to your check list of things to do as a map tester. Hopefully you don't get discouraged about this one little bug that was found and keep making maps. :D
I agree mistakes happen, but with our maps being used worldwide we need to implement stricter testing. It's pretty strong testing as is but some simple things like making sure wall offs work right were getting skipped. We will fix it, and we will learn from it
Given what happened with Vicious at Dreamhack, do you feel that this will hamper the validity of using 'non-tested' maps in major tournaments?
It seemed more a liability than a boon to have these maps in the first place... |
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| bbm United Kingdom. April 24 2012 21:22. Posts 1292 | Profile # |
On April 24 2012 18:17 DYEAlabaster wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 07:43 Diamond wrote:
On April 23 2012 07:40 Random_Guy09 wrote:
Problem can be fixed as you guys will do at least someone found it. Your a human being sometimes you make a mistake. We're not robots that can be programmed to do everything perfectly. Shouldn't be a lot of flaming to come from it. At least now you can add that to your check list of things to do as a map tester. Hopefully you don't get discouraged about this one little bug that was found and keep making maps. :D
I agree mistakes happen, but with our maps being used worldwide we need to implement stricter testing. It's pretty strong testing as is but some simple things like making sure wall offs work right were getting skipped. We will fix it, and we will learn from it
Given what happened with Vicious at Dreamhack, do you feel that this will hamper the validity of using 'non-tested' maps in major tournaments? It seemed more a liability than a boon to have these maps in the first place...
It will, but the more important thing to take away from DH is that no pros like playing on maps they don't know. I watched a fair bit (not all of, tbf) the series, and saw about three maps on vicious and one on the snow one. I don't blame them for chosing maps they're familiar with, however, what can we do about it? Props to the ESV weekly for having a pool of fresh maps, if it wasn't for them we wouldn't have Cloud Kingdom rocking GSL, MLG, DH, ladder, et al. But it would be unfair to have, say, a large LAN on a small pool of only new and (comparatively) unestablished maps. Weeklys and longer seasons can adjust around changes better (eg: the swift removal of calm before storm from GSL), so I'd like to see more variation in things like playhem and go4sc2 |
| | By.Sun or By.Rain, he always delivers | |
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| DYEAlabaster Canada. April 24 2012 21:29. Posts 992 | Profile Blog # |
On April 24 2012 21:22 bbm wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 18:17 DYEAlabaster wrote:
On April 23 2012 07:43 Diamond wrote:
On April 23 2012 07:40 Random_Guy09 wrote:
Problem can be fixed as you guys will do at least someone found it. Your a human being sometimes you make a mistake. We're not robots that can be programmed to do everything perfectly. Shouldn't be a lot of flaming to come from it. At least now you can add that to your check list of things to do as a map tester. Hopefully you don't get discouraged about this one little bug that was found and keep making maps. :D
I agree mistakes happen, but with our maps being used worldwide we need to implement stricter testing. It's pretty strong testing as is but some simple things like making sure wall offs work right were getting skipped. We will fix it, and we will learn from it
Given what happened with Vicious at Dreamhack, do you feel that this will hamper the validity of using 'non-tested' maps in major tournaments? It seemed more a liability than a boon to have these maps in the first place...
It will, but the more important thing to take away from DH is that no pros like playing on maps they don't know. I watched a fair bit (not all of, tbf) the series, and saw about three maps on vicious and one on the snow one. I don't blame them for chosing maps they're familiar with, however, what can we do about it? Props to the ESV weekly for having a pool of fresh maps, if it wasn't for them we wouldn't have Cloud Kingdom rocking GSL, MLG, DH, ladder, et al. But it would be unfair to have, say, a large LAN on a small pool of only new and (comparatively) unestablished maps. Weeklys and longer seasons can adjust around changes better (eg: the swift removal of calm before storm from GSL), so I'd like to see more variation in things like playhem and go4sc2
The thing that bothers me most is the reaction that pros such as Sase and Naniwa has towards these maps. They outright scorned the organization for using new maps. I'll remind you that Cloud Kingdom didn't work through the ESV weekly- rather, Team Liquid helped make that map what it is (along with KC, and Ohana... all the 'tournament' ESV maps)
So I'm not sure if ESV is successful, or if Team Liquid is good for marketing and quality control. Results at DreamHack speak to the latter, and I wanted to have Diamond's/ProdiG's thoughts on that. We can see from how Morrow/Sase got screwed because they felt they needed to veto different maps and instantly got gibbed on these maps, etc., or the above error. Just wondering about what ESV feels about their own validity after a slap in the face like this. |
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