| Lega- Canada. February 15 2012 23:48. Posts 136 | Profile # |
Hi guys,
Didn't see any topics started on this yet.
I have played Korhal 4 times now against Z and each time I have opened up with a simple 1 gate expand. I won 3/4 of these games with all of them being long macro games, however I am wondering what others are opening with. I always feel like I am slightly behind with a 1 gate expand if the zerg takes a quick third.
Is there a decently safe way to FFE or are we best to open with the 1 gate FE?
What are you using as your opening for this map vs Z?Last edit: 2012-02-15 23:59:23 |
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| Lega- Canada. February 16 2012 00:43. Posts 136 | Profile # |
Has no one played PvZ on this map yet?  |
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| lSasquatchl United States. February 16 2012 00:49. Posts 309 | Profile # |
| My opening vs Zergs on all the maps I have un-vetoed for season 6 is a 2 gate exansion, with 3-4 zealot pressure. The map has a pretty wide choke at the natural though, So I am still working on how to configure my wall, with this opening. |
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| skatbone United States. February 16 2012 00:56. Posts 926 | Profile # |
| I've played 3 customs in which I FFEd just fine with a pylon and forge at the base of the ramp. These all turned into long macro games. I'm only diamond and none of the Zerg I played tried a bust so my successes are partially untested. But I don't see why FFE shouldn't be possible seeing as a number of toss streamers were FFEing on Arid Plateau...a much more dangerous natural. |
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| DarkblueRH United States. February 16 2012 01:06. Posts 141 | Profile # |
I actually prefer to not FFE on maps where you cannot wall with 3 buildings and a zealot. And I especially hate to FFE on any map that requires me to get 2 cannons to protect vs the Z taking free damage. Why? You have to worry way too much about defense when I prefer to be on the offense. So Korhol... 1gate FE or 3gate FE every time.
If you're having trouble vs the Zerg taking a fast 3rd base when you 1gate FE then the best thing you can do is to 1) get a stargate early, or 2) go for some sort of 2base timing. I prefer a +2 attack blink stalker timing with a bajillion FF's. Be sure to get a robo before you attack though. The only way you lose this game is if you have bad micro or he got Hydras very quickly. And if he got Hydras really quickly it's going to be harder for him to deny your 3rd. So press your map presence with blink/sentry and a warp prism with zealots, get an observer on the map and deny creep spread so hydras have to comit to going cross-map or Nydus. Meanwhile you FAST tech to templar or to Colossus and snag your own 3rd behind your soft contain. If he pushes across the map just drop a bunch of cannons cause he can't run away without taking free damage from your blink stalkers.
If he didn't get Hydras... Just fuckin kill him. If you don't kill him (especially on a map like Korhol with tons of chokes) then you micro'd poorly.
If you decided to go with Templar, you must also make immortals. Templar and Immortals should always come in pairs in PvZ. Make as many Templar as you can while constantly producing immortals and throwing down cannons/gateways at your 3rd.Last edit: 2012-02-16 01:10:20 |
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| OMGStomp2 United States. February 16 2012 01:40. Posts 8 | Profile # |
| Honestly i find FFE pretty easy on this map if you nexus wall. its easy to block off the runby route behind your mineral line and the nexus wall works out pretty neatly, im able to fit 2 cannons snugly behind my forge and gateway and between my nexus. I held a pretty crazy roach ling all-in with ease on this... it would seem difficult but its really not. just go into a custom and figure it out(: |
| | OMGStomp.150~~ Add me for practice~http://www.twitch.tv/stomp2anewbeat |
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| Adonminus Israel. February 16 2012 01:57. Posts 487 | Profile # |
I use YufFE and then do a fast 4 gate push with +1, then transition into whatever I want. Link:  Gate Nexus YufFE |
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| decerto February 16 2012 02:04. Posts 242 | Profile # |
The only reason you go 1gate/3gate expos is so the zerg cant take a 3rd hatch before 9-10 mins. You have a decent gateway army by 7-8mins, use it, move to his 3rd at around 8 mins with a probe for a proxy pylon. If he has a third at this stage you can kill it and pull back. If he doesnt simply carefully pressure the nat and pull back if he has units.
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| Opec February 16 2012 02:41. Posts 42 | Profile # |
| FFE forge-gate-nexus wall. I don't see why you'd do a gate opening on korhal. |
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| Lega- Canada. February 16 2012 03:33. Posts 136 | Profile # |
| Thanks guys. Looks like I have some practicing to do! |
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| Berailfor February 16 2012 04:37. Posts 423 | Profile # |
On February 15 2012 23:48 KraVe wrote:
Hi guys,
Didn't see any topics started on this yet.
I have played Korhal 4 times now against Z and each time I have opened up with a simple 1 gate expand. I won 3/4 of these games with all of them being long macro games, however I am wondering what others are opening with. I always feel like I am slightly behind with a 1 gate expand if the zerg takes a quick third.
Is there a decently safe way to FFE or are we best to open with the 1 gate FE?
What are you using as your opening for this map vs Z?
This has nothing to do with your wins/losses. But if the Zerg takes a fast third after you 1 gate expand you did something wrong. They can't take a third at a normal FFE time as you have UNITS! Go pressure and if you have sentries and good forcefields it will be virtually impossible for him to hold a third that quick without building up a decent sized army first. And even then. If you get up a ramp with your army then FF and kill. Seriously there should be no way they can take a fast third. Just pressure afterwards with like 3-4 gates and a good sentry count.
Edit: oh ya see guy above me said the same thing. If you are doing good 1 gate FEing then stick on it. Its riskier than FFE to allins but way better at forcing the Zerg to 2 base vs 2 base with you for a while. And trust me that is a really shitty spot for the ZLast edit: 2012-02-16 04:40:30 |
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| Lega- Canada. February 16 2012 13:14. Posts 136 | Profile # | |
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| Whimpen Sweden. February 16 2012 19:01. Posts 2 | Profile # |
FFE have worked just fine to me played about 3-4 games vs Z yesterday and it worked just perfectly great, if you are unsure about position you can add me (if your EU that is) Whimpen 981  |
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| Melonator Canada. February 16 2012 22:45. Posts 13 | Profile # |
| I've been walling this map the same as Antiga..Forge, Gate, Cyber, Zealot, Pylon. You don't have the highground vision, but it is easy enough to defend and gives you more space to build than a Nexus wall. |
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| kcdc United States. February 17 2012 00:17. Posts 2311 | Profile Blog # |
FFE works fine, but is it worth trying to take a third? I didn't play Korhal before it joined the ladder, and that third base looks pretty nasty. The overlooking high ground isn't too scary vs Z, but the distance between your natural and third and the way that the path requires you to expose your army to a massive flank in order to move between those bases looks like it will cause a lot of losses.
I've been going for 2-base timings on Korhal vs Z. Maybe my zealot-void-templar-immortal strategy would work tho since zealots don't fear flanks like sentries and colossi do. |
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| ZeromuS Canada. February 17 2012 00:29. Posts 8291 | Profile Blog # |
On February 17 2012 00:17 kcdc wrote:
FFE works fine, but is it worth trying to take a third? I didn't play Korhal before it joined the ladder, and that third base looks pretty nasty. The overlooking high ground isn't too scary vs Z, but the distance between your natural and third and the way that the path requires you to expose your army to a massive flank in order to move between those bases looks like it will cause a lot of losses.
I've been going for 2-base timings on Korhal vs Z. Maybe my zealot-void-templar-immortal strategy would work tho since zealots don't fear flanks like sentries and colossi do.
It looks like dual sight to me and we know what dual sight is like for protoss. I think that maps with the first 3 expansions in a line AND a large natural is just bad for protoss against heavy roach play.
If you look at other maps with 3 bases that aren't super close like day break at least there you have positional advantage when moving from the natural to the 3rd and can avoid a flank or defend on both sides.
For example the game from ESV stream 1 last night, on daybreak the mass roach strat that would have broken protoss on dual sight was much easier to hold on daybreak. Even though nexuses were lost, the slightly triangular positioning of the bases and highground between nat and 3rd along with ramps made defense possible.
This is from a map layout perspective. Im not a mapper but a lot of maps with straight line 1st 2nd third and wide nat have always been harder for protoss. Xel naga comes to mind as well but the way the natural was set up made flanks harder since you had the positional advantage of a choke point coming into the natural from either side and the ramp came into a concave at the third which isn't quite the same as the scenario in korhal compound. |
| | uOttawa SC2 Club/CSL Team join@uostarcraft.com | Will we see a hatchery this game? - Tasteless (Game 2 Naniwa vs. Leenock MLG winter Arena) |
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| Lega- Canada. February 17 2012 00:29. Posts 136 | Profile # |
| Since making this thread I have tried FFE'ing on Korhal and have been successful. I must say however that kcdc, you are exactly right. That third base is a bitch! 2 base timings are certainly the way to go. I've been using 7 gate blink stalker but I will give your strat a go for sure tonight. |
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| ThatGuy89 United Kingdom. February 17 2012 00:33. Posts 1966 | Profile # |
if you build your first pylon touching the bottom of the ramp, but on the outside, you can use forge+gateway next to it. (putting the pylon there is also helpful if he 6 pools, you can just block of the ramp easily)
then your second pylon needs to go on the other side of the choke, but back behind the wall and not part of it. Then the cyber core goes down and leaves a 1 hex gap between core and gateway. I think it works pretty well but ive not actually played on ladder on this map yet ^^
EDIT: Wow alot of these replies are making me wanna veto korhal ^^
ill at least try it first, but how does it faie in PvP and PvTLast edit: 2012-02-17 00:38:34 |
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| Sated England. February 17 2012 01:33. Posts 3427 | Profile Blog # |
You should be able to FFE on this map. The natural is quite small, so it only takes a couple of forcefields to force enemy units into your cannons. Definitely better than attempting to FFE on Metalopolis (which I wouldn't advise) and probably safer than a FFE on Shattered Temple (which I usually attempt) too.
However, like other people have mentioned above, I don't like the positioning of the third (for the reasons mentioned above). What this means for Protoss players is that we need to be punishing Zerg players who try to take that third base by using an aggressive strategy. There are lots of places to hide high-ground pylons on the opponents side of the map, so most Gateway all-ins are going to be really strong.Last edit: 2012-02-17 01:33:50 |
| | EU Masters Protoss Playing For Team SC2Improve ~ www.sc2improve.org ~ "I'd rather play a strategy that is worse but that I feel confident in than play the better strategy not really feeling it and not being 100% behind it" - Grubby | |
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