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I have questions about what is realistically achievable in terms of improving at SC2.
I’d never played RTS games before SC2 was released so came to the game as a genuine noob. I am 38 years old and have a full time job + other responsibilities that mean I cannot play nearly as much SC2 as I’d like. I work in finance (boo) and I have never actually met anyone who plays SC2! This means that I can’t swap war stories/strategies with mates. Essentially I have to improve in isolation (and with the invaluable help of TL). I do have a track record of being ok at things when I can devote time to them. I have represented my country in two different sports (neither of which involved a computer alas..) so I am not without coordination (although I'd like more please :-)). My experience with other pursuits suggests that, with enough application and a little bit of ability, you can achieve your goals. However my experience in terms of ‘rate of improvement’ with SC2 suggests that my view may be wrong.
I’d like to get really good at SC2 (by this I mean I’d like to be competitive at Masters level) BUT, although I do try to devote all my spare time to it, I just don’t have time to spend more than say 3 hours a day (some of which will be spent watching pro games as opposed to playing). Here is my history:
Season 1 – started in bronze, got to Rank 1 Silver.
Seasons 2&3 – high Gold.
Seasons 4&5 – high Platinum.
I am now ranked 1 in my Platinum league. I play Terran on the EU server and my APM is maybe 80 average (but is very variable – there are moments when it hits 300 and moments when it is 0). I read the forums: many people just seem to ‘be’ Masters. Ie they just play the game and instantly achieve this sort of level (don’t ask me how). Almost all of the top players in the world are under 30 – let alone nearer 40 – so perhaps age also acts as a barrier to improvement, especially if you come to RTS gaming ‘late’.
So to my questions:
1) Does this (slow) rate of progress indicate that I have roughly ‘found my level’? Ie I will be high Plat/low Diamond maybe but not much better.
2) Will I be naturally capped by my low APM? Is APM like IQ ie it doesn’t really change that much over time. Or can anyone provide examples of how there APM has improved markedly?
3) Are there people in the Masters league who don’t have to practise that much to be that good? Ie is there such a thing as ‘natural talent’ in SC2 or is it basically application?
My practice at the moment consists of laddering and watching professional games. I do not have partners to play with and I’ve never had coaching. I am sure it is fair to say that both would benefit me but can anyone say they’ve improved dramatically as a result of either/both? If so, are these people who actually have a sh*tload more time to play than I do? Ie might I be better just carrying on laddering until I win the lottery and can play full time?
I wasn't sure a 'replay' was necessary for these sorts of questions. Happy to provide if necessary.
Simon
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I was bronze about 3 months ago, now masters, i could and can only play every 2 weeks on the weekends, if you put in the work you can do it. I'd recommend coaching but i wouldnt go with anyone super expensive, such as incontrol... or destiny, go with people like apollo.
*Also, no previous RTS experience, just fps and MMORPG.
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Apm is just how fast you do things, and obviously the more you do them the faster you get. When i first played broodwar i had a grand whole 20-30 apm, but now I play on sc2 with 80-100 apm w/o even really trying, the more you practice the better you get. IMO anyone can get to masters (not me im high d ) but you just need to practice a LOT and LADDER, its simply a matter of time and commitment.
Im sure skill does take into account only @ super high levels (koreans :D )
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On February 16 2012 03:34 terrantosaur wrote:
1) Does this (slow) rate of progress indicate that I have roughly ‘found my level’? Ie I will be high Plat/low Diamond maybe but not much better.
2) Will I be naturally capped by my low APM? Is APM like IQ ie it doesn’t really change that much over time. Or can anyone provide examples of how there APM has improved markedly?
3) Are there people in the Masters league who don’t have to practise that much to be that good? Ie is there such a thing as ‘natural talent’ in SC2 or is it basically application?
Alot of people have "natural talent" in SC2, but i think that alot of natural talent is actually code for alot of video game and often rts game experience but of course some is natural. Most people who went straight to masters, myself included, had played alot of other games and some at least casual rts experience.
Your APM can improve by using hotkeys, more control groups and making sure to use the keyboard whenever the mouse is not completely necessary. This will also help your skill level improve.
I truely believe that ANYONE can be masters, you just have to look at your game and spot your errors, putting replays on TL can help with that. Your macro is probably your major problem, but other things can be helped with as well. Putting in a couple hours a day is more then enough to become excellent. Memorizing your build orders, knowing how to react to all situations and ACTIVELY TRYING TO IMPROVE your macro and other skills is what it takes.
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I started Gold and just got to masters. I play a game or two a night. If you're Zerg hit me up and I can give you some tips. I think a lot of it relies on how much you can learn from your mistakes. Hearing what you need to do is one thing. Watch your replays and see if you can pick out where you went wrong. From there make sure you don't make that key mistake next game. Keep building like this.
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My opinion is that some people are indeed very good at strategy games in general, but many of those people don't excel at SC2 because of the execution part of the game. I think you can get to masters by simply practicing so much your execution is good enough and you know the builds, but without ability to think quickly and strategically you're never going to excel.
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The reason why you got yourself stuck in this particular league / league position is because you hit a 'wall'. I think that it would be the perfect time to get some coaching lessons if you have the money for it, or if you don't, get into some deep analyses of your replays.
1. I don't think people can get 'stuck' and never move on. With enough dedication and going to the right direction, you will be able to get past the 'skill wall'. 2. APM can be improved by playing faster and faster, just like how it was mentioned on SotG. Get used to playing faster. You will make a lot of stupid mistakes in the beginning, but you will eventually get used to the speed. Also, there are pro players with low APM, so it's not like high APM is a requirement for higher leagues. 3. There is natural talent, but I believe that most of the Master's players are there because they play a lot. See, for example, Deezer. He is a bad player, but he plays so much that he can grind up to high Masters.
A good tip for you would be to watch some of your replays and find a specific mistake you are doing. Work on it until you rarely do it again and you will notice that you have improved. It might take some time, but that's the best way to improve without the help of others.
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If you have two functioning limbs, one functioning eye, and a functioning brain, you can be masters at sc2.
User was warned for this post
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Hey mate. Good to see "old" people who are into eSports! :D
To answer your questions as you ask them.
1) Not nessecarily - although only time will tell. The fact you have progress means you are not yet at your cap for abilities. I started in bronze when I first started the game but finished the season in diamond top8 - although admittedly, I nolifed alot those months. But since then I have steadily climbed both in ranks, and my general understanding and adaptability within games. Only when you feel you cannot improve beyond your current level, will that be true. So keep at it.
2) Not in the sligthest! My own apm is 80 at average - and I finished season 5 in top 8 masters in my division (although it was a baddie division! So take it with a grain of salt APM is in fact a terrible way to measure overall skill. Like you said, your APM can spike to 300 - I assume this is in combat situations. As long as you can do that, I mean theres absolutely no reason that you shouldnt be able to macro just fine with as little as 20 or 30 apm during the steady phases of the game. Some like to keep their hands going by spamming clicks, ut if it works for you then thats super. One example that I feel has improved my mouse precision: Micro those workers! Micro them to close mineral fields. Make it a habit to select workers with clicks rather than boxing. Make sure every close mineral patch is mined by two workers allways in the beginning minutes - its not a super huge deal, moneywise, but its fun, keeps your hand warm and traines precision clicks, since you obviously want to select the correct worker!
3) Well. Define "that much". Some just have a "flair" for computer games, mostly due to the fact that they play them. A lot. i achieved master league in season 2 (although to be fair I also got my 1k wins achievement as zerg in mid S2...), and before SCII I hadnt really played RTS much, either. What I did have going for me though was a lot of time at my hands in evenings and weekends to really get alot of practise in, and watch alot of pro games. Just watching how pros do stuff expands your understanding of the game, without nessecarily needing to copy their every move.
Even though I am a zerg player, I could look at some of your playstyles some time if you want. I may not have a solid grip on actually playing the other two races, but what I do have is understanding of the races. Would be happy to help out some time.
Edit: But obviously, not "everyone" can become masters. There is a set percentage of all active accounts for each league. So theres a hard cap on the numbers :p
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1. From my personal experience with helping out my friends, the main problem seems to be that they don't know what it is exactly that they're doing wrong. They don't know what to look for in replays. This is why it always helps to ask someone else (preferably a league or two higher than yourself) to ask for their perspective on your play. Edit: I realize I didn't adequately answer your question...I guess my answer is that if you know what it is you're doing wrong and you work on it bit by bit, it SHOULD rank you up eventually, given enough time. There's no limit (maybe not until high masters, since the game just gets really technical at that point) to how much you can improve.
2. APM doesn't correlate to skill. It can be low and you can still be in masters. This isn't something you should worry about. 80 seems like a good enough number.
3. I'm sure prior experience with other RTS's help somewhat. Or there are just those people who are naturally good at picking up things right off the bat. Or there are people who work at the game nonstop and know what to improve on and eventually get better. How others easily achieve things should have no bearing on how you personally achieve things (it's not like that knowledge is going to help you get any better. More likely, it'll make you feel shitty).
My advice since your time is so limited: rather than watching professional games (I assume this to mean tournaments like GSL, MLG, etc.), I'd watch streams. They're much more personal and you get to actually see things from a pro player's point of view. You get to see how fast they react to certain things and why they make the actions they make. Some players take the time to analyze their games after a particularly good one.
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On February 16 2012 03:45 statikg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 03:34 terrantosaur wrote:
1) Does this (slow) rate of progress indicate that I have roughly ‘found my level’? Ie I will be high Plat/low Diamond maybe but not much better.
2) Will I be naturally capped by my low APM? Is APM like IQ ie it doesn’t really change that much over time. Or can anyone provide examples of how there APM has improved markedly?
3) Are there people in the Masters league who don’t have to practise that much to be that good? Ie is there such a thing as ‘natural talent’ in SC2 or is it basically application?
Alot of people have "natural talent" in SC2, but i think that alot of natural talent is actually code for alot of video game and often rts game experience but of course some is natural. Most people who went straight to masters, myself included, had played alot of other games and some at least casual rts experience. Your APM can improve by using hotkeys, more control groups and making sure to use the keyboard whenever the mouse is not completely necessary. This will also help your skill level improve. I truely believe that ANYONE can be masters, you just have to look at your game and spot your errors, putting replays on TL can help with that. Your macro is probably your major problem, but other things can be helped with as well. Putting in a couple hours a day is more then enough to become excellent. Memorizing your build orders, knowing how to react to all situations and ACTIVELY TRYING TO IMPROVE your macro and other skills is what it takes.
right on the spot...
also, about your APM issue, as mentioned, once you actually memorize lots of stuff, know hte game pretty well and never forget the basics you should have a high apm.. once i got things going i had an APM of 110 on average... and thats what it is since then
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I played since the beta and was pretty much always platin and diamond, as those were still the highest leagues. it took me half a season to get into masters, when it was introduced.
however, everytime I'm not able to play for a longer periode of time, i experience that i need to work my way back to "master level". i guess if I had not been playing for that long, i would definatly not be masters.
in conclusion: i think masters is a matter of training. platin league right now is probably as good as masters was when it was introduced. so i guess you are doing fine!
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1. Anyone can be masters 2. Masters still sucks
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Started out Bronze in beta and I think after beta I was already low diamond/high plat (since there was no master, it would probably be low masters back then). After release, I just polish my skill and keep playing. Then when master lvl came out I got it on the first game of that day, wasnt much of surprise since I expected to get it anyways. So ugh, I guess it really depend on the person really
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I wouldn't necessarily recommend coaching. Master league isn't extremely difficult to obtain. Just master your mechanics and that alone should get your there or pretty close. Know what builds are viable against what races, and if you execute those strategies properly then you will make it to master league fairly easily. You just gotta keep winning that's all.
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On February 16 2012 04:01 Berailfor wrote: I wouldn't necessarily recommend coaching. Master league isn't extremely difficult to obtain. Just master your mechanics and that alone should get your there or pretty close. Know what builds are viable against what races, and if you execute those strategies properly then you will make it to master league fairly easily. You just gotta keep winning that's all. All true. But also easily said than done.
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My friend, age 23 went from bronze->platinum over a weekend and apm of maybe 35 jump to about 85 in the process. From bronze to platinum we worked on macro in a fairly simple manner. Every game, he had the same checklist of things to accomplish and repeatedly tried to do them as quickly as he could. In the process he won games.
Since the build is simple and never changes and isn't especially vulnerable to crazy rushes as you will have many marines + a wall, you will have ample opportunity to practice the mechanics in the checklist below that will allow you to increase your apm.
His checklist would go something like this,
1. make scv, and split workers as quickly as possible a. hotkey command centre to 4 2. change the rally point for the cc so workers go to a new patch 3. rally worker at 9/11 food to depot location and build depot, then a barracks on 12 b. hotkey the barracks to 3, every time you make a rax add it to the group and reset the rally point. 4. scout, when the rax starts building using shift rally points and the minimap without looking. this can be tricky at first b. hotkey scv to 1, don't let him die. watch him go around the minimap and hit "11" when he gets to a base 5. get ready to finish wall, with next 100 minerals, this is before a marine or an orbital 6. orbital-> marine 7. slam out a rax every time you have 150 minerals and make 4 total, 5-6 if you want to all in 8. do not supply block, constantly produce marines and scvs 9. @16 marines go attack them, make a command centre at your natural location
You will a. kill them, this happens pretty often. Most zergs will die, terrans without a bunker will die, protoss who don't forcefield well will likely die aswell.
Transition: Continue making bio, get double gas, 2 tech labs, stim/combat/conccussive and medivacs. Make more rax, expand, drop everywhere using shift ques to rally your medivac. Just hold shift right click the path and the drop hotkey is D. Hotkey the medivac to group 2.
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I feel the same as you. I was brand new to the competitive RTS scene and had never played starcraft before. I worked my way from bronze to #1 plat in about a month of playing (granted I was playing alot) then I joined the ARMY (epic fail) and went over a year without playing. Im trying to get back into it buts its alot harder to improve than it used to be.My mechanics are fucked and i just dont have the time to get them polished.
I really like the game but it seems like im just outclassed from all the time most people have had to practice (it would blow your mind how many people in gold-plat league have the 1000 win portrait) I think it would help alot to have a friend to practice with because it takes away the drive to just win and helps to focus on improving but even then im out in the field half the time now so i dont know. Its very frustrating lol.
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If u have time to play at least 10 games in day, you are going to get masters eventually. Only playing the game helps you to get better. Also good mindset is a step forward. Blaming yourself and NOT the game helps you to improve.
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