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| NewbieOne Poland. February 23 2012 06:57. Posts 560 | Profile Blog # |
One thing I've got to say about the last patch:
Snipe damage changed from 45 to 25 +25 Psionic
We felt the Snipe ability was countering zerg broodlords and ultralisks slightly too well. Especially at the pro level, we were seeing a lot of games where terran players were playing very defensive games while massing ghosts to counter most of the options zerg players had at their disposal.
While we like to see creative and innovative use of units, we felt that in this case Snipe was becoming too effective against zerg’s most expensive units. When adjusting the ability, we tried to settle on a number that would allow using Snipe to remain a viable tactic, though not as powerful as it is now. With this change, brood lords will fall in ten casts of Snipe rather than six (taking into account health regeneration), while an ultralisk will die in 21 casts, up from 11. This also significantly increases the number of ghosts and stockpiled energy needed to pull this tactic off, which we feel confident about because, previously, terran players rarely needed to consider the energy on their ghosts units.
Since when significantly is the response to slight?
And this in addition to the fact that the problem was TvZ lategame but this affected the counter to zealot/archon as well as a whole lot of other situations outside of TvZ lategame or TvZ at all.
Consistency anyone? |
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| Torra Norway. February 23 2012 06:57. Posts 443 | Profile # |
On February 23 2012 06:46 schubbidu wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 06:36 Dalavita wrote:
Does the snipe nerf limit gameplay and close doors for future experimentations?
Wait a second ... nerfing a unit that counters broodlords, ultras, infestors, mutas is _limiting_ gameplay ? Yes, it is limiting the gameplay of the single unit Ghost in favor of serveral other units. That is good game design if you ask me.
Why does people think that ghosts counter ultras? they're a soft counter to them at most.
Would you say that it's bad for the game the way snipe was being used on other units like marines, banelings, workers ect.? |
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| Dalavita Sweden. February 23 2012 06:59. Posts 1113 | Profile # |
On February 23 2012 06:46 schubbidu wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 06:36 Dalavita wrote:
Does the snipe nerf limit gameplay and close doors for future experimentations?
Wait a second ... nerfing a unit that counters broodlords, ultras, infestors, mutas is _limiting_ gameplay ? Yes, it is limiting the gameplay of the single unit Ghost in favor of serveral other units. That is good game design if you ask me.
Ghosts were useful against broods and ultras, not the counter, and you can't even make the claim that lategame ghosts were overpowered in tvz to begin with since there weren't enough games where those situations happened, and even in the few games we saw zergs won several of them.
On February 23 2012 06:59 EmilA wrote:
Broodlords+infestors are overpowered, they said
Just make ghosts, you fucking noob, they said
Nerf ghosts, they said
Ghosts were nerfed, to shit
This is a poem
It's beautiful.Last edit: 2012-02-23 07:00:44 |
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| EmilA Denmark. February 23 2012 06:59. Posts 2737 | Profile # |
Broodlords+infestors are overpowered, they said
Just make ghosts, you fucking noob, they said
Nerf ghosts, they said
Ghosts were nerfed, to shit
This is a poem |
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| Puzz Netherlands. February 23 2012 06:59. Posts 18 | Profile # |
EPM/APM working as intended...
EPM = E Peen Meter
APM = Actual Penis Meter
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| qwertzi February 23 2012 07:01. Posts 109 | Profile # |
On February 18 2012 13:01 iaguz wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 18 2012 12:49 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
--------- So they release the patch 1 day before Assembly AND MLG? Are they... I dont know, retarded?
Well it's ok, if they keep all the computers on 1.4.2 we can just play over LAN without having to update!
and how would that work?
i am seriously curious??? |
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| JustPassingBy February 23 2012 07:05. Posts 6265 | Profile Blog # |
good bye to mass ghosts in team monobattles...
anyways, I'm looking forward to what effects the phoenix upgrades will have on the metagame. |
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 PureBalls Austria. February 23 2012 07:09. Posts 383 | Profile # |
On February 23 2012 06:51 s3rp wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 06:46 PureBalls wrote:
On February 23 2012 06:43 CyDe wrote:
On February 23 2012 06:26 PureBalls wrote:
All the terrans crying about late game TvP should watch the Jinro vs Tiger G1 @ EWM.
Dude, you can't just say something is balanced/ imbalanced because of one game. Waaay too many variables involved. Consist evidence is what people are looking for, especially Blizzard, so the fact that you posting one game, ONE, is completely negligible.
What I meant with that post, was that terran players should watch that game for inspiration. P and T enter late game on equal footing, and terran (BCs and nukes) just wrecks protoss.
The game was a turtlefest until 1 player lost his cool. If Jinro would've attacked he would've been owned just the same. Lategame TvP is almost impossible to attack ( for both sides ) so the one with more expos wins if its split the one with more cool wins. Daybreak is pretty easy to split to make sure the Toss doesn't get ahead . Then you just have to sit on your ass untill the Toss is retareded enough to attack you while annoying him at the same. Great game design ...
So what do you want?
Do you want back and forth games, with lots of small engagements and harass? Is that it?
Well, my friend, you should be complaining about the sick good and cheap terran early game, not the strong P/Z late game.
Thats basically what makes the other two races turtle to survive.
How is a protoss supposed to fight a back and forth and harass based early/mid game, against faster units with more DPS?
If you want SC2 to be more like BW (more exciting and back and forth) then the only way to do it, is to nerf stim to shit, up marauder cost (gas) and get rid of CS, make roaches much more costly, and probably reduce spawn larva by half, as well as get rid of FFs and make WG a TC level upgrade.
That should do it. |
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| fiveohfive Australia. February 23 2012 07:12. Posts 81 | Profile # |
On February 23 2012 06:35 PureBalls wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 06:30 scypio wrote:
On February 23 2012 06:05 PureBalls wrote:
Yes it does. It does make you a Korean. Huk was training in Korea, and before his break was one of the top players in the world. But he wasnt just visiting for like a week. No, it took months, before he became a beast, and crushed nerds at DH and HSC. Which foreign terran stayed long enough in Korea, to get really good? The answer is NONE.
I remember QXC training for a short time, and already all killing the IM team. What could he have accomplished, if he stayer for like 9-12 months? And how good is he now? Do you believe he could all-kill IM in his current form?
There are no terrans because it takes a bloody ridiculous amount of time to play at that level as T. That's the reason, not that people did not stay in Korea long enough. Tournaments and ladder without terrans is just boring. If you can't see that, if you cannot comprehend what was written in the "terrans vanishing from ladder thread" here on TL then yeah enjoy your PvZ's. PvZzzzzzs. I'd rather take a nap.
Terran hardest race, buhu, QQ, yadda yadda yadda. I've heard that one before. The fact is, Huk stayed in Korea and trained like a Korean for a long time, and became sick good. No foreign terran ever tried to do that.
How do you "know" that Huk trained like a Korean? The closest thing to evidence I've come across was the latest qxc interview where he had a discussion with Huk. Apperently, Huk said they mostly just laddered.
This isn't really different from Huk being at home laddering now is it?
But I'm interested, were you in the training house with him?
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| | Terran, nerfed since '10. One ability at a time! |
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| fiveohfive Australia. February 23 2012 07:15. Posts 81 | Profile # |
On February 23 2012 07:09 PureBalls wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 06:51 s3rp wrote:
On February 23 2012 06:46 PureBalls wrote:
On February 23 2012 06:43 CyDe wrote:
On February 23 2012 06:26 PureBalls wrote:
All the terrans crying about late game TvP should watch the Jinro vs Tiger G1 @ EWM.
Dude, you can't just say something is balanced/ imbalanced because of one game. Waaay too many variables involved. Consist evidence is what people are looking for, especially Blizzard, so the fact that you posting one game, ONE, is completely negligible.
What I meant with that post, was that terran players should watch that game for inspiration. P and T enter late game on equal footing, and terran (BCs and nukes) just wrecks protoss.
The game was a turtlefest until 1 player lost his cool. If Jinro would've attacked he would've been owned just the same. Lategame TvP is almost impossible to attack ( for both sides ) so the one with more expos wins if its split the one with more cool wins. Daybreak is pretty easy to split to make sure the Toss doesn't get ahead . Then you just have to sit on your ass untill the Toss is retareded enough to attack you while annoying him at the same. Great game design ...
So what do you want? Do you want back and forth games, with lots of small engagements and harass? Is that it? Well, my friend, you should be complaining about the sick good and cheap terran early game, not the strong P/Z late game. Thats basically what makes the other two races turtle to survive. How is a protoss supposed to fight a back and forth and harass based early/mid game, against faster units with more DPS? If you want SC2 to be more like BW (more exciting and back and forth) then the only way to do it, is to nerf stim to shit, up marauder cost (gas) and get rid of CS, make roaches much more costly, and probably reduce spawn larva by half, as well as get rid of FFs and make WG a TC level upgrade. That should do it.
For starters, Blizzard can scrap the shit mechanic known as "Warp in." The sooner this is taken out, the sooner other things can be changed so we can all see much better games played out.
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| | Terran, nerfed since '10. One ability at a time! |
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| s3rp Germany. February 23 2012 07:22. Posts 2795 | Profile # |
On February 23 2012 07:09 PureBalls wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 06:51 s3rp wrote:
On February 23 2012 06:46 PureBalls wrote:
On February 23 2012 06:43 CyDe wrote:
On February 23 2012 06:26 PureBalls wrote:
All the terrans crying about late game TvP should watch the Jinro vs Tiger G1 @ EWM.
Dude, you can't just say something is balanced/ imbalanced because of one game. Waaay too many variables involved. Consist evidence is what people are looking for, especially Blizzard, so the fact that you posting one game, ONE, is completely negligible.
What I meant with that post, was that terran players should watch that game for inspiration. P and T enter late game on equal footing, and terran (BCs and nukes) just wrecks protoss.
The game was a turtlefest until 1 player lost his cool. If Jinro would've attacked he would've been owned just the same. Lategame TvP is almost impossible to attack ( for both sides ) so the one with more expos wins if its split the one with more cool wins. Daybreak is pretty easy to split to make sure the Toss doesn't get ahead . Then you just have to sit on your ass untill the Toss is retareded enough to attack you while annoying him at the same. Great game design ...
So what do you want? Do you want back and forth games, with lots of small engagements and harass? Is that it? Well, my friend, you should be complaining about the sick good and cheap terran early game, not the strong P/Z late game. Thats basically what makes the other two races turtle to survive. How is a protoss supposed to fight a back and forth and harass based early/mid game, against faster units with more DPS? If you want SC2 to be more like BW (more exciting and back and forth) then the only way to do it, is to nerf stim to shit, up marauder cost (gas) and get rid of CS, make roaches much more costly, and probably reduce spawn larva by half, as well as get rid of FFs and make WG a TC level upgrade. That should do it.
Well whatever it takes to make the game more exciting. Not sure if what you suggest would do it would need probably more changes . Thats what the game needs to stay exciting in the long run. Theres for example 3 Units that in my mind fuck up every MU. Marauder / Roach and Colossus should all be scrapped for something different and then the macro mechanics need massive gutting.Last edit: 2012-02-23 07:23:45 |
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| ChriseC Germany. February 23 2012 07:23. Posts 381 | Profile # |
On February 23 2012 06:45 Dalavita wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 06:26 PureBalls wrote:
All the terrans crying about late game TvP should watch the Jinro vs Tiger G1 @ EWM.
Jinro is the biggest proponent of the lategame TvP imbalance. Can you stop shitting the threads up with random comments that are wrong, pure and simple?
so if jinro is the biggest proponent 99% of people arguing in here should be quiet because they are most likely alot worse than jinro is, and on top top lvl terrans seems to have a good time |
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| jupiter6 February 23 2012 07:25. Posts 205 | Profile # |
On February 23 2012 06:59 Dalavita wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 06:46 schubbidu wrote:
On February 23 2012 06:36 Dalavita wrote:
Does the snipe nerf limit gameplay and close doors for future experimentations?
Wait a second ... nerfing a unit that counters broodlords, ultras, infestors, mutas is _limiting_ gameplay ? Yes, it is limiting the gameplay of the single unit Ghost in favor of serveral other units. That is good game design if you ask me.
Ghosts were useful against broods and ultras, not the counter, and you can't even make the claim that lategame ghosts were overpowered in tvz to begin with since there weren't enough games where those situations happened, and even in the few games we saw zergs won several of them.
havent this happened before with the same ridiculous reasoning, when blizzard decided to add energy bars to thors (which first they removed in beta) despite of them being balanced as an unit, they decided to do this because they didnt like people massing them(wtf -.-), reaper got nerfed into oblivion to the point its completely useless except for scouting purposes, BFH isnt used anymore except when you go pure mech.
as soon as terrans try make other units than MMM it gets nerfed into oblivion so its not viable anymore, sad thing is other races have hard-counters to MMM in late game while terrans have no other options to "switch" over other than just completely outplay the opponent with MMM whole game ....Last edit: 2012-02-23 07:32:27 |
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| Love and Justice United States. February 23 2012 07:37. Posts 86 | Profile # |
Edit - NVM fixed >.>.
Last edit: 2012-02-23 07:55:34 |
| | "No banglings, no problem." (ZeNEXLine) |  |
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| Mehukannu Finland. February 23 2012 07:40. Posts 387 | Profile # |
On February 23 2012 07:23 ChriseC wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 06:45 Dalavita wrote:
On February 23 2012 06:26 PureBalls wrote:
All the terrans crying about late game TvP should watch the Jinro vs Tiger G1 @ EWM.
Jinro is the biggest proponent of the lategame TvP imbalance. Can you stop shitting the threads up with random comments that are wrong, pure and simple?
so if jinro is the biggest proponent 99% of people arguing in here should be quiet because they are most likely alot worse than jinro is, and on top top lvl terrans seems to have a good time
Like he has that much time for that. You do realize that he is a pro player so he needs to spend most of his time on training than reading and commenting on threads? |
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| Nazeron Canada. February 23 2012 08:02. Posts 1032 | Profile # |
| thnx for the info. timing for mlg and asus is really bad tho |
| | (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |  |
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| Detri United Kingdom. February 23 2012 08:18. Posts 527 | Profile # |
I'm race switching, or maybe game switching. fu blizzard, you just don't listen to the community at all when it comes to balance, unless its posted on the unreadable nonsense retard infested blizzard forums. What was wrong with a -ve damage multiplier on massive units. Or just fixing the fact people are using 3rd party programs by - i don't know - BANNING them?
:'( tis a sad fucking day for starcraft |
| | The poor are thieves, beggars and whores, the rich are politicians, solicitors and courtesans... |
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 Aunvilgod February 23 2012 08:33. Posts 2031 | Profile # |
| Nobody is gonna watch this MLG so who cares. |
| | Incredible Miracle |  |
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| Erasme France. February 23 2012 08:55. Posts 4072 | Profile Blog # |
On February 23 2012 06:50 oxxo wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 06:46 schubbidu wrote:
On February 23 2012 06:36 Dalavita wrote:
Does the snipe nerf limit gameplay and close doors for future experimentations?
Wait a second ... nerfing a unit that counters broodlords, ultras, infestors, mutas is _limiting_ gameplay ? Yes, it is limiting the gameplay of the single unit Ghost in favor of serveral other units. That is good game design if you ask me.
Broodlords soft counter. Ultra extremely soft counter. Infestor, snipe was never the counter, EMP was. Muta yes sorta since pretty much everything 'counters' them. It's catching them that's the problem. T NEEDS to have some soft counters considering how poor their macro mechanic is for late game play. Blizzard seems to want to force T into making hard counter units without acknowledging the fact that T has BY FAR the worst tech switching and macro abilities in the game. That's called poor game design.
Oh the irony. Soft counter ? Don't you need 6snipes to kill a broodlord ? That's 150energy. And 2snipe to kill an infestor is pretty good. Does noone remember the gsl ? Where 3/4 of the players were terrans ?
Snipe does instant damage and only cost 25energy, ghost aren't fragile nor fat and can be invisible. It's still an amazing unit. If you stop build them, then you're not thinking enough.
(nom nom nom terrans tears)Last edit: 2012-02-23 08:56:13 |
| | 'Reading all your blogs make me feel warm inside, it's like I know you already and I hope you would like to know me too' |
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| scypio Poland. February 23 2012 09:02. Posts 863 | Profile # |
On February 23 2012 08:55 Erasme wrote:
Oh the irony. Soft counter ? Don't you need 6snipes to kill a broodlord ? That's 150energy. And 2snipe to kill an infestor is pretty good. Does noone remember the gsl ? Where 3/4 of the players were terrans ?
Noone will remember GSL when the only viable strategy for Terrans will be either 1- or 2-base all-in with a highly-predictable unit composition. And Blizzard just cannot stop pushing the game in that direction, making it dull to play and to watch.
This is not a good thing for SC2 and has little to do with balance.
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| | TLception: balance-whining-whining... and don't comment football games unless your in Champions League! |
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