[D] TvZ reactor Hellions, run in or not?

I have a very specific question based on what seems to be the most popular opening in TvZ. I often do the Reactor hellion opening, making 4 hellions for map control. My question is independent of the follow up to that. I am often sitting outside the zerg base with my 4 hellions wondering two things:

1) How many drones would I need to roast to make running in there and losing my 4 hellions (along with map control) worth it?

2) If I run in there, do I B line for the main ramp or roast at the nat?

My game sense continues to improve, so I am starting to kind of "feel" how many drones I could get if I go in. I see amounts of spines, ling counts, gas timing, etc. Any additional advice on *how* to figure out how many drones you can get is also appreciated, the more info we have the better.

The biggest negative to doing a run in is the loss of map control, which seems to greatly effect whatever follow up you choose, so I am very interested to see the opinion of others players on this.

I am mid masters level, thanks in advance.

JaeRaeGu Korea (South). February 20 2012 05:02. Posts 34

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Well ill give you the zerg thinking. If you have hellions i will have 2 spines and 2 queens protecting my natural, then about 10 lings on the top of my ramp. If you ever want to run in the ramp will be suicide. I think you need to kill 10 drones to make it worth 4 hellions, because with the map control im free to take my third and drone up to 60 easily.

edit: I am much more scared of a terran who doesn't run in to kill drones.

Last edit: 2012-02-20 05:03:09

yeaR United Kingdom. February 20 2012 05:05. Posts 97

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That sums it up I guess.

Noocta France. February 20 2012 05:07. Posts 8637

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Hum.. In my opinion, you need to do great damage for it to be worth it. I'd say atleast 10 drones, perhaps even more.
I usualy only do that when i mess up with zerg earlier. Like the 2 marines 1 scv bunker pressure before making the reactor ? If i get the bunker up and the two marines inside, it delay their spines or the evo chamber wall, it might give the hellions an opportunity to go in.

In case you're in, the goal is to avoid queen damage, and be close to mineral patches or away from creep so you can kill the zergling easily. ( by kitting them off creep, or funneling them near the minerals )

The thing is, if you don't do enough damage, they can take a third instantly, and remake all the drones you killed very quick.
I prefer to keep them alive and use them in the first attack. ( Most people follow reactor hellion expand into fast double medivac now, having the hellions with it is crazy good. )

There are no secrets to success. It is the result of preparation, hard work, and learning from failure.

Host- New Zealand. February 20 2012 05:07. Posts 458

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Unless you clean my mineral line, I don't think it's worth it, because with no hellions, I can take a 3rd very easily.

Haarp United States. February 20 2012 05:07. Posts 38

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Kind of echoing what JaeRaeGu said, having those first hellions are just for map control early on. Unless the Zerg for whatever reason only has a single queen, or no hellion defense at all, poke in and try to roat a drone or two. I wouldn't recommend doing something that would end up losing you those initial hellions.

They should really only be used to scout for roach timing and roach count and to deny creep from the natural. If you continue to make hellions and can spread the Zerg a little thin, then I would say running one or two into the main to scout.

The party is now, not there.

enigamI Canada. February 20 2012 05:08. Posts 380

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Yea JaeRaeGu's summary sounds pretty accurate to me. As a shitty diamond terran, I only run in when either I'm making more hellions to keep map control (rare after first 4) or I'm confident I can get back out again (they seem to have too many drones for there to be enough lings, spine crawler doesn't cover side/back of nat minerals, etc.)
If your not sure you can get 10+, or somehow maintain map control, don't commit them, I would say.

Iron_ United States. February 20 2012 05:17. Posts 319

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I see, it was good to see some Zerg perspective on this as well. I personally have been feeling like what Host said is accurate, that you basically have to clean out one of the min lines. I was wondering if getting 10-12 would be worth it, but from the Zerg perspective it seems that it probably is not.

I do run into Zergs sometimes that go *very* light on the lings (with late gas so they are still slow pretty late), and one spine. In this case I start to feel like I *must* run in since he has so many drones.

enigamI Canada. February 20 2012 05:23. Posts 380

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On February 20 2012 05:17 Iron_ wrote:
I see, it was good to see some Zerg perspective on this as well. I personally have been feeling like what Host said is accurate, that you basically have to clean out one of the min lines. I was wondering if getting 10-12 would be worth it, but from the Zerg perspective it seems that it probably is not.

I do run into Zergs sometimes that go *very* light on the lings (with late gas so they are still slow pretty late), and one spine. In this case I start to feel like I *must* run in since he has so many drones.

I think this is one of the main reasons pros and high level players so often do bunker harass. It keeps a zerg honest up to this point. Though perhaps better players will have an opinion on this, I think that at this point, if their spine and queens are well positioned, its better to accept that you are a bit behind economically. I would either tech hard to a midgame push, or, preferably, if the map allows I'll just take a fast third.

TheDwf February 20 2012 05:33. Posts 3678

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You should not risk your Hellions, unless your strategy revolves around damaging the Zerg early on (see the build order fOrGG used some weeks/months ago, with a Cloak Banshee follow-up, etc.). Trying to force Hellions into the main will result in a painful death (for the Hellions, I mean) against any decent Zerg, because they will have some Zerglings at the top of the ramp, and they should have a building at the bottom of the ramp to hinder your Hellions anyway.

Basically, it is better to keep map control and prevent them from taking their third for the longest possible time than to try to kill some drones. With some decent micro, it is very easy to block Hellions with some drones, and then you end up losing your Hellions for maybe one injection, which is clearly not worth it.

kofman Andorra. February 20 2012 05:35. Posts 697

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Don't do it. keep them alive.

Host- New Zealand. February 20 2012 05:37. Posts 458

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I play a ling festor ultra style in ZvT, and if you as a Terran player can identify that, then it's probably not a bad idea to keep making the hellions, as they supplement any push quite nicely.

statikg Canada. February 20 2012 06:13. Posts 929

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As with many things in starcraft, it depends on your playstyle, if your going to be applying pressure soon, its ok to let the 3rd go up early, but if your going for a passive style fast 3rd, its not very good to allow them to take the 3rd and get the creep spread started. You don't need to "clean" a mineral line, if you got 10 drones in masters with 4 hellions you basically win the game.

Last edit: 2012-02-20 06:14:13

DuraLot Norway. February 20 2012 06:15. Posts 32

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On February 20 2012 04:56 Iron_ wrote:
I have a very specific question based on what seems to be the most popular opening in TvZ. I often do the Reactor hellion opening, making 4 hellions for map control. My question is independent of the follow up to that. I am often sitting outside the zerg base with my 4 hellions wondering two things:

1) How many drones would I need to roast to make running in there and losing my 4 hellions (along with map control) worth it?

2) If I run in there, do I B line for the main ramp or roast at the nat?

My game sense continues to improve, so I am starting to kind of "feel" how many drones I could get if I go in. I see amounts of spines, ling counts, gas timing, etc. Any additional advice on *how* to figure out how many drones you can get is also appreciated, the more info we have the better.

The biggest negative to doing a run in is the loss of map control, which seems to greatly effect whatever follow up you choose, so I am very interested to see the opinion of others players on this.

I am mid masters level, thanks in advance.

If you ask me I'd say that suiciding your first 4 Helions is a loss, unless you can roast 15 Drones (which your zergy-buddy won't allow since it's BM to sleep during games

The 4 Helions will do so much more in the long run than it will if you kill 8 Drones or so. Your Helions force zerglings, spines, deny creep spread, delay the third base of the zerg, and keep the zerg in the dark if done correctly. Your first Helions are worth so much early on that suiciding them will be a bad decision. Remember that later on suiciding can be cool, just watch the Mvp vs Nestea games at Blizzcon on Antiga Shipyard, but your first 4 Helions aren't there to kill themselves :D

Moosy Canada. February 20 2012 06:16. Posts 362

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Any good terran will tell you it's not worth losing the hellions. So keep your hellions alive as a priority. Only run into mineral lines if they are lacking defense/ playing greedy.

polybios Czech Republic. February 20 2012 07:07. Posts 110

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Supernova is very aggressive with hellions on his stream. I have seen several times how he ran in with 4 or 6 hellions and did a ton of damage, even killed queens. Zergs were often surprisingly greedy, with no or not enough lings.

Antylamon United States. February 20 2012 07:30. Posts 1379

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Sometimes I opt to run behind the hatch so that the lings line up when they try to attack, then I kill the larvae before they can become eggs. It actually works really well, even w/o blue flame.

EDIT: I usually only do this when there is a total of two combined spine crawlers+queens.

Last edit: 2012-02-20 07:31:24

iAmJeffReY United States. February 20 2012 07:35. Posts 3388

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On February 20 2012 07:07 polybios wrote:
Supernova is very aggressive with hellions on his stream. I have seen several times how he ran in with 4 or 6 hellions and did a ton of damage, even killed queens. Zergs were often surprisingly greedy, with no or not enough lings.

Amen. I won a TvZ today where I ran 5 hellions into his main minerals and smoked 20 drones, with a fast third CC, stim, and double medic his roach ling counter was dead in its tracks.

It's not worth it, you will lose more games than you win with it. Only if they do a 2 queen 1 spine and like no lings can you even attempt it.

The downfall is losing 100% map control, Z gets third, and creep spread with 1-2 more queens onto the middle of any map before you can dream of moving out with stim shields siege.

iAmJeffReY.267 /// http://www.twitch.tv/iamjeffrey_

CTangent United States. February 20 2012 07:45. Posts 123

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I always open reactor hellion expand and I only make 4 hellions. The only time I ever commit them to a mineral line attack is if I see a glaring hole in the Zerg's defense (usually on maps like Metalopolis, where bad spine coverage can leave the far side of the mineral line undefended). Otherwise, I deny creep spread and poke at queens, kiting away when they chase me and preventing any damage on my hellions for as long as possible. My general game plan is to try to deny a third base and hit with a 9:30 marine tank push (designed to trash 2 hatch muta/infestor play); if you can use your hellions to that end, you'd be in good shape.

Paulio Netherlands. February 20 2012 07:50. Posts 60

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I personally only try to run in with my hellions on maps that have a wide natural expand (like metalopolis). This way there is a larger chance to get out if you see many lings hidden behind the spine crawlers/queens. As stated before, losing your hellions is a no go, even if you kill a few drones.

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