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| Sated England. February 27 2012 06:48. Posts 3393 | Profile Blog # |
Introduction
On February 20 2012 19:19 Sated wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I was watching the EU Playhem cast that night and I saw  Honor doing a strange 2gate expansion in his PvT games against  Satiini. He essentially did the 3 Stalker Rush commonly seen in PvP, using one Chronoboost on his Warpgate Research and then one Chonoboost on the 2nd and 3rd Stalkers. He'd then get two more Stalkers from his Gateways whilst boosting out Warpgate Research, using his 5 Stalker force to pressure/scout the Terran whilst taking an expansion and placing down a Robotics Facility. The expansion and Robotics Facility were put down at the same time Warpgate Research finished. After this, he tech'd quickly to Colossus whilst staying on just 2 Gateways and saturating his expansion. I tried it out once this morning in a custom game against a Platinum Terran and it felt really solid. In this case the Terran went for a 3 Rax stim-timing and expanded behind it, which put him massively behind when his pressure did absolutely no damage, but I feel like you'd be able to hold 2 Rax reactor/tech-lab pressure just as easily. I didn't feel comfortable getting Colossus as quickly as Honor did - I got 2 Sentries as my 6th/7th units and I got a couple of Immortals from the Robotics Facility before throwing down my Colossus Den - but I did feel incredibly safe in the face of a relatively strong timing-attack from my opponent. The game ended with a 14 minute 3 Colossus push that I made to secure my third (late third, I know, but the game was on Xel'Naga Caverns!) and even through the Terran had an upgrade advantage, they weren't able to get out enough Vikings to prevent my Colossus melting their ground force. Anyway, it's all well and good me using this against a Terran in a lower league than me who was doing an inefficient build (a 3rax stim-timing followed by an expansion isn't exactly the smoothest build), but in Honor's games he was going up against a very good Terran who was doing gasless expansions, which meant that Honor's expansion was quite a bit behind. To make up for this, he used his initial Stalkers to pick at Satiini's bunkers and to force his SCVs off the mineral line to repair. He then picked away at the repairing SCVs, clawing back some of the Terran's advantage. This pressure, aside from killing workers and preventing mining, also meant that Satiini was pinned back in his main until he could get Stim, which is what I think gave Honor the time to rush out his tech. I was quite impressed with the build, even if Honor did eventually lose the series 2-1. Has anyone seen other players using this style or tried it out themselves? It isn't the same as the 2 Gate pressure ChiTa popularised (  2 Gateway Pressure into Expansion ) because you skip the Zealot and rush to 5 Stalkers, but the timing of the expansion is quite similar and you end up with a similarly-sized force to pressure with (even though you get Warpgates slower).
I made the above post in the Protoss Help Me Thread, but not too many people seemed interested. Either no one else had seen these games or no one else thought there was any merit in this build. However, I saw the potential for this build to give me a way of throwing down a quick expansion whilst being incredibly safe against the Barracks-pressure builds that I have a lot of trouble against when going for a 1 Gate FE.
Build Orders
Double Gas Opening
This opening gets two Assimilators before expanding, meaning that you'll be stockpiling a lot of gas by the time your expansion becomes operational. This will allow you to tech-up very quickly in the mid-game, but relies heavily on Forcefield micro to deflect early aggression. A very similar opening was used by Oz to quickly tech-up to High Templar and Chargelots before taking a third base, but fast Colossi are also a possible option.
- 9 Pylon (Chrono Probes 3 Times)
- 13 Gateway
- 15 Assimilator
- 16 Pylon
- 18 Cybernetics Core
- 19 Assimilator (2)
- 20 Gateway (2)
- @100% Cybernetics Core: Warpgate Research (Chrono Until Complete), Stalker.
- 24 Pylon
- @100% Gateway (2): Sentry x2
- Cut Probes At 24 Probes
- Important: Poke Up Terran Ramp With Scouting Probe
- @400 Minerals: Nexus
- @200 Minerals, 100 Gas: Robotics Facility
- @100 Minerals: Pylon
- Resume Probe Production
- @100 Minerals: Pylon
- Transform Warpgates
- @100 Minerals, 200 Gas: Sentry x2
Single Gas Opening
This opening is safer against gas-openings from the Terran as you will have a stronger army out on the field if the Terran attempts Barracks-based aggression (less Sentries, more Zealot/Stalker). However, opening this way will slow down your gas harvesting, which means that you won't be able to tech-up as quickly in the mid-game.
- 9 Pylon (Chrono Probes 3 Times)
- 13 Gateway
- 15 Assimilator
- 16 Pylon
- 18 Cyber
- 20 Gateway (2)
- @100% Cyber: Warpgate Research (Dump Chrono Into This Until Finished), Stalker.
- 24 Pylon
- @100% Gate (2): Stalker x2
- Cut Probes At 24 Probes
- Important: Poke Up The Ramp With Your Scouting Probe
- @400 Minerals: Nexus
- @200 Minerals, 100 Gas: Robotics Facility
- @100 Minerals: Pylon
- @75 Minerals: Assimilator (2)
- Resume Probe Production
- @100 Minerals: Pylon
- Transform Warpgates
- @150 Minerals, 100 Gas: Zealot, Sentry
Notes
- I usually Pylon scout in this match-up. If you'd rather Gateway scout then you're free to do so, but I think that knowing whether or not the Terran has gas is the most important information you can have in this match-up and a Pylon scout is the best way to achieve that.
- The scouting poke after placing down your Nexus is really important because it comes at a time when the Terran should have already decided their tech-route (or expanded in the case of a gasless expand). If they're still on one-base then the only thing you're looking for are signs that Marauders are being built; you need to rule out the possibility of Cloaked Banshees as quickly as possible because it lets you cut corners. Until you know for sure that they're not going for Cloaked Banshees you have to make sure you get ready for them by 7:30. This means that you need to Chronoboost out two Observers; the first is a scouting Observer and the second Observer is for protecting your Probes.
- If you suspect that the opponent is going for early bio pressure (they hadn't expanded when you poked with your Probe), it is possible to build two additional units between building your 2nd/3rd units and your Nexus. In the two gas style these units will be Sentries and in the single gas style these units will be Zealots. This will offer you additional safety against any aggressive style the Terran opponent can throw at you, and is especially effective against 2 Rax Reactor/Tech-Lab pressure, but it will also slow your economy down by delaying your Nexus and prolonging the cut in Probe production.
- If the opponent is going 2 Rax Reactor/Tech-Lab then they'll be out on the map around the time your Warpgates finish. Since you should be holding Xel'Naga Towers with your scouting Probe, you should see them coming across the map. As long as you know the push is coming and prepare/micro your units correctly, you'll be able to crush their push. Just make sure you pull Probes to defend if they pulled SCVs and make sure you use your Forcefields efficiently. There's no rush to counter-attack since crushing their push will leave you pretty far ahead.
Replays
Single-Gas Opening
Immortal Mid-Game:
http://sc2rep.com/replays/%28P%29Sated_vs_%28T%29LeAderOnE/18275
http://sc2rep.com/replays/%28T%29Scrutom_vs_%28P%29Sated/18457
6 Gate All-In:
http://drop.sc/148408
http://sc2rep.com/replays/%28P%29Sated_vs_%28T%29gilgamesh/18638
http://sc2rep.com/replays/%28P%29Sated_vs_%28T%29Ielmoere/18674
Defending Factory All-Ins:
http://drop.sc/161589
http://drop.sc/148409
http://drop.sc/148411
Double Gas Opening
Fast Colossi:
http://drop.sc/168451
Fast Templar:
http://drop.sc/170684
Pro-Level VODs
2012 GSL Season 2, Ro16, Group D, Oz vs. Maru:
http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls2/vod/67124/?set=15&lang=
Conclusion
This is a really safe opening that sits somewhere between a standard 1 Gate FE and the safer 2 Gate Fast Obs opening. It is designed to defend against any early bio-pressure that the Terran can throw at you, especially 2 Rax Reactor/Tech-Lab builds. Players who are comfortable using a 1 Gate FE to defend against such strategies should probably continue to do so as this build will offer them no advantages, but players who don't feel comfortable against bio-pressure when using a 1 Gate FE might want to consider the use of this opening instead.Last edit: 2012-11-09 06:48:31 |
| | EU Masters Protoss Playing For Team SC2Improve ~ www.sc2improve.org ~ "I'd rather play a strategy that is worse but that I feel confident in than play the better strategy not really feeling it and not being 100% behind it" - Grubby | |
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| Corsica Ukraine. February 27 2012 07:01. Posts 1765 | Profile # |
| Wait, isnt it Build NaNi used long time ago? He get 2 gate, and put aearly pressure, I remember someone saying (Strikes as 4 gate , expands as 3 gate), when WG finishes you get +2 units ( or + 4 if you CB) and exp, is this it? |
| | Idra is the most overrated pro i swear - someone in chat, after aLive 4-0. Foreign team: Empire Korean team: Startale |
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| zezamer Finland. February 27 2012 08:16. Posts 1805 | Profile # |
| Yea 6 month old opening from nani |
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| TangSC Canada. February 27 2012 08:28. Posts 1612 | Profile Blog # |
| I usually 1gate FFE with Zealot->Stalker->Stalker, but I used to do 3-5 stalker pressure early off 2 gates and it's definitely a viable alternative. Thanks for the order and work you put into this Sated, I especially like the all-in transitions you've listed. |
| | Coaching TangStarcraft.com | Team All-Inspiration.com | Stream Twitch.TV/TangSC |
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| Trusty New Zealand. February 27 2012 08:36. Posts 520 | Profile # |
| Although it's a similar concept to the 2gate nani build, the build itself is entirely different. Different units at different times. |
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| aZealot New Zealand. February 27 2012 09:04. Posts 1389 | Profile # |
Nice to see you posting it up formally, Sated.
To the first 2 replies, it's not the same as the Nani build which, IIRC, was more standard whilst this is more Stalker-centric.
I 2 Gate myself in PvT (I don't feel safe with the 1 G FE) so I'm looking forward to trying this out. Thanks.
Edit/ Any maps you particularly recommend this build on?Last edit: 2012-02-27 09:24:16 |
| | "Consider fully, act decisively" - Jigoro Kano |
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| TuckerX United States. February 27 2012 11:33. Posts 15 | Profile # |
I do believe Cecil and Alejandrisha had very well-written guides in the Strategy forum that detailed this opening based on naniwa's build. I don't really think this is anything strange or new, unfortunately  |
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| GoldenH February 27 2012 11:42. Posts 953 | Profile Blog # |
| I've been doing this basically, but with only 3 stalkers. They are basically there to scout for an expo and force bunkers while I expand. I'm not entirely sure what the 2 zealots are for. I like to wait for CB to finish before I get my 2 zealots, and I only get them if I see a marauder push coming. It's not like the zealots are going to make your poke any better if they FE'd? huh. |
| | "(Dudes are) not going to say "Buy this game — I cried at the end". (...) I suppose the secret is to find a game that makes you shoot eight million fuckin' dudes and then cry about how awesome it is to shoot eight million fuckin' dudes." - Tim Rogers |
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| Sated England. February 27 2012 19:11. Posts 3393 | Profile Blog # |
On February 27 2012 07:01 Corsica wrote:
Wait, isnt it Build NaNi used long time ago? He get 2 gate, and put aearly pressure, I remember someone saying (Strikes as 4 gate , expands as 3 gate), when WG finishes you get +2 units ( or + 4 if you CB) and exp, is this it?
On February 27 2012 08:16 zezamer wrote:
Yea 6 month old opening from nani
NaNi's build relied on a Warpgate timing attack that I don't think has been viable since the Warpgate Resarch nerf. If I'm remembering correctly, NaNi's build was quite similar to ChiTa's 2gate Pressure opening: 2 Gateway Pressure into Expansion
The builds are pretty similar in their aims (more units earlier, still getting an expansion quickly), but the order in which you get things is different. You also get an earlier Robotics Facility with this build, making you safer against Cloaked Banshees and such.
On February 27 2012 08:28 TangSC wrote:
I usually 1gate FFE with Zealot->Stalker->Stalker, but I used to do 3-5 stalker pressure early off 2 gates and it's definitely a viable alternative. Thanks for the order and work you put into this Sated, I especially like the all-in transitions you've listed.
Why am I not surprised that you like the all-in?  But yeah, the 5gate is a nice thing to have in the locker because it's definitely strong against someone who is trying to be greedy.
On February 27 2012 11:42 GoldenH wrote:
I've been doing this basically, but with only 3 stalkers. They are basically there to scout for an expo and force bunkers while I expand. I'm not entirely sure what the 2 zealots are for. I like to wait for CB to finish before I get my 2 zealots, and I only get them if I see a marauder push coming. It's not like the zealots are going to make your poke any better if they FE'd? huh.
You like to wait for CB to finish? I don't Chronoboost the Zealots. Unless you mean that you wait for Warpgate Research to finish? If you do that then the Gateways are idle until Warpgate Research finishes and I'd rather have them building something.
I should mention that it's entirely possible to swap the order of those Zealots and the Nexus if you think you're safe!
On February 27 2012 09:04 aZealot wrote:
Nice to see you posting it up formally, Sated.
To the first 2 replies, it's not the same as the Nani build which, IIRC, was more standard whilst this is more Stalker-centric.
I 2 Gate myself in PvT (I don't feel safe with the 1 G FE) so I'm looking forward to trying this out. Thanks.
Edit/ Any maps you particularly recommend this build on?
Thanks!
I'd say you should use it on any map where you don't feel comfortable holding early Barracks-pressure, but in a general sense I think it's best on smaller maps and especially on maps that only have 2 spawn locations. It's not something you're going to want to do on large maps like Tal'Darim Altar because you have much more time on those maps to prepare for early pressure and can therefore hold a 1gate FE or Nexus first much easier.Last edit: 2012-02-27 19:13:18 |
| | EU Masters Protoss Playing For Team SC2Improve ~ www.sc2improve.org ~ "I'd rather play a strategy that is worse but that I feel confident in than play the better strategy not really feeling it and not being 100% behind it" - Grubby | |
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| Jotunheimr United States. February 28 2012 14:31. Posts 36 | Profile # |
looks like your average 3 stalker rush expand to me
I wouldn't say its common and its not naniwa's build iirc, but i didn't think it really has a place tho.
I use it a lot on ladder for practical reasons in that it never dies against cheese if i'm really unsure (scout gets denied, etc). I think its more or less a build everyone has in the back of their head that they pull out at certain times for a kinda safe yet sorta greedy econ build. 5 gate all inning a terran can be hard too cause it isn't particular hard for the terran to drop a scan in your main if you deny scouting well (happens to me a lot in ladder) so then i have to cancel my all in and expand which sucks too. It has its purpose, it has its flaws |
| | "誰かが世界はもう終わりだと言ってました。でも私この世界が好きです。この街が好きです。ここにいるみんなが大好きです。あきらめるなんて出来ません。”~Kanata Sorami |
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| alexisonfire Brazil. February 28 2012 14:39. Posts 24 | Profile # |
This is almost the same as 1gate FE. A little safer IMO, but still almost the same.
You can (and I think you should) pressure while opening 1gate FE. You get 2 stalkers before warptech and then plus 3 stalkers on a proxy pylon, which is almost the same as the opening you suggest. |
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| Sated England. February 28 2012 17:38. Posts 3393 | Profile Blog # |
On February 28 2012 14:31 Jotunheimr wrote:
looks like your average 3 stalker rush expand to me
I wouldn't say its common and its not naniwa's build iirc, but i didn't think it really has a place tho.
I use it a lot on ladder for practical reasons in that it never dies against cheese if i'm really unsure (scout gets denied, etc). I think its more or less a build everyone has in the back of their head that they pull out at certain times for a kinda safe yet sorta greedy econ build. 5 gate all inning a terran can be hard too cause it isn't particular hard for the terran to drop a scan in your main if you deny scouting well (happens to me a lot in ladder) so then i have to cancel my all in and expand which sucks too. It has its purpose, it has its flaws
Yes, this is just a 3 Stalker Rush, but I've never seen a guide on using this build in PvT so I thought I'd write one. If this was something that was ultra-common then I don't think the casters (and I) would've been so surprised when Honor was using it (albeit a version that gets an earlier second gas). I also think that detailing a possible follow-up helps people who are learning, because I've seen lots of lower-level players who are capable of doing an opening build flawlessly but then don't seem to know what they're doing afterwards!
The 5gate is strong because you have more than enough economy to support it with 24 Probes and because you can deny any scouting of your natural with your Stalkers. Scans are always an issue so it's definitely not a fool-proof punishment against gasless expand builds.
On February 28 2012 14:39 alexisonfire wrote:
This is almost the same as 1gate FE. A little safer IMO, but still almost the same.
You can (and I think you should) pressure while opening 1gate FE. You get 2 stalkers before warptech and then plus 3 stalkers on a proxy pylon, which is almost the same as the opening you suggest.
That's the idea, that it's a safer version of a 1gate FE. I don't feel safe doing a 1gate FE of any variety, but if you do feel safe doing a 1gate FE then you should keep on doing it. |
| | EU Masters Protoss Playing For Team SC2Improve ~ www.sc2improve.org ~ "I'd rather play a strategy that is worse but that I feel confident in than play the better strategy not really feeling it and not being 100% behind it" - Grubby | |
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| alexisonfire Brazil. February 29 2012 04:20. Posts 24 | Profile # |
Besides 3rax stim pushes, i've never had trouble with early terran pushes, even when i do 1gate FE. Maybe its a server difference (since you're EU and im NA, still we're both dias).
Gonna try this build on, as soon as i do, ill tell you my impressions about it! (: |
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| Forbidden17 February 29 2012 04:37. Posts 664 | Profile # |
I think the viability of 2gate FE has been discussed a lot in the past, I looked into it a fair bit myself and the general consensus every time was:
1. Not aggressive enough to do sufficient damage to justify the opening as compared to say, a 3gate FE
2. Not as economical as a 1gate FE
It was a weird in between of a 1 and 3 gate FE and it was hard to find situations where you'd want an in between. It just seemed like an aggressive opening that wasn't very aggressive at all.
Now comparing it the other way, as in opening 2gate FE with the intention of staying passive is counter productive since it is clearly less economical than a 1gate FE (massive probe cut plus significantly later nexus), and 1gate FE holds all sorts of aggression already. The only reason pros get screwed by early aggression is because they get very greedy in their 1gate FE variants. If you aren't comfortable dealing with early aggression, just use a safe variant? |
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| Sated England. February 29 2012 05:21. Posts 3393 | Profile Blog # |
On February 29 2012 04:37 Forbidden17 wrote:
I think the viability of 2gate FE has been discussed a lot in the past, I looked into it a fair bit myself and the general consensus every time was:
1. Not aggressive enough to do sufficient damage to justify the opening as compared to say, a 3gate FE
2. Not as economical as a 1gate FE
It was a weird in between of a 1 and 3 gate FE and it was hard to find situations where you'd want an in between. It just seemed like an aggressive opening that wasn't very aggressive at all.
Now comparing it the other way, as in opening 2gate FE with the intention of staying passive is counter productive since it is clearly less economical than a 1gate FE (massive probe cut plus significantly later nexus), and 1gate FE holds all sorts of aggression already. The only reason pros get screwed by early aggression is because they get very greedy in their 1gate FE variants. If you aren't comfortable dealing with early aggression, just use a safe variant?
I've never felt safe with any variant of the 1gate FE against Barracks-pressure, so I guess you could say that this is my safe "variant". It's no use having an economic advantage if you're just going to flat-out die when Terran does certain Barracks-pressures. You could argue that I should just get better at micro'ing my units, but I doubt I have the potential to get much better than I currently am: I'm incredibly surprised that I've even made it to Diamond considering how trash I am at this game
As for the 3gate expand, I was messing around with that build a lot before seeing this build being performed because I liked the idea of being aggressive whilst expanding. Unfortunately, I've come to the conclusion that the 3gate pressure hits too late now that Warpgates have been nerfed, so it's rare that you do any damage. Still, I wouldn't say that this is between a 3gate and a 1gate because a 3gate gets tech much slower. IMO this is actually somewhere in between 1gate FE and 2gate Fast Obs, which is exactly why I like it.
EDIT:
On February 29 2012 04:20 alexisonfire wrote:
Besides 3rax stim pushes, i've never had trouble with early terran pushes, even when i do 1gate FE. Maybe its a server difference (since you're EU and im NA, still we're both dias).
Gonna try this build on, as soon as i do, ill tell you my impressions about it! (:
I only have problems with 3rax Stim if I either:
a) Mess up my macro.
b) They pull all their SCVs BitByBit-style.
The second one is much harder to do anything about >.<; Fortunately, it is rare that anyone does it, and on most maps you can easily Forcefield off your natural and be incredibly safe against such things. Just... Metalopolis... T_TLast edit: 2012-02-29 05:27:35 |
| | EU Masters Protoss Playing For Team SC2Improve ~ www.sc2improve.org ~ "I'd rather play a strategy that is worse but that I feel confident in than play the better strategy not really feeling it and not being 100% behind it" - Grubby | |
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| Forbidden17 February 29 2012 05:48. Posts 664 | Profile # |
On February 29 2012 05:21 Sated wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 04:37 Forbidden17 wrote:
I think the viability of 2gate FE has been discussed a lot in the past, I looked into it a fair bit myself and the general consensus every time was:
1. Not aggressive enough to do sufficient damage to justify the opening as compared to say, a 3gate FE
2. Not as economical as a 1gate FE
It was a weird in between of a 1 and 3 gate FE and it was hard to find situations where you'd want an in between. It just seemed like an aggressive opening that wasn't very aggressive at all.
Now comparing it the other way, as in opening 2gate FE with the intention of staying passive is counter productive since it is clearly less economical than a 1gate FE (massive probe cut plus significantly later nexus), and 1gate FE holds all sorts of aggression already. The only reason pros get screwed by early aggression is because they get very greedy in their 1gate FE variants. If you aren't comfortable dealing with early aggression, just use a safe variant?
I've never felt safe with any variant of the 1gate FE against Barracks-pressure, so I guess you could say that this is my safe "variant". It's no use having an economic advantage if you're just going to flat-out die when Terran does certain Barracks-pressures. You could argue that I should just get better at micro'ing my units, but I doubt I have the potential to get much better than I currently am: I'm incredibly surprised that I've even made it to Diamond considering how trash I am at this game As for the 3gate expand, I was messing around with that build a lot before seeing this build being performed because I liked the idea of being aggressive whilst expanding. Unfortunately, I've come to the conclusion that the 3gate pressure hits too late now that Warpgates have been nerfed, so it's rare that you do any damage. Still, I wouldn't say that this is between a 3gate and a 1gate because a 3gate gets tech much slower. IMO this is actually somewhere in between 1gate FE and 2gate Fast Obs, which is exactly why I like it.
That's perfectly fine, everyone is free to play the style the are comfortable with. If it works well for you keep doing it!
As a last attempt to convince you though, I 1gate FE or nexus first in my PvTs and honestly the micro is nothing... It has more to do with your mechanics to execute the build cleanly, and just having units at a specific time. Honestly I could comment about how you have to focus fire marauders, kite marines, pull back weak units, judge when you need to pull probes, etc... but honestly 95% of the time if you hit your timings correctly and you didn't play greedy as hell, the micro is as intensive as a-clicking and watching him run away.
The micro is not hard! =] and executing the build order down to the exact second isn't hard either!! It just takes some practice ^^ |
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| Sated England. February 29 2012 08:12. Posts 3393 | Profile Blog # |
On February 29 2012 05:48 Forbidden17 wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 05:21 Sated wrote:
On February 29 2012 04:37 Forbidden17 wrote:
I think the viability of 2gate FE has been discussed a lot in the past, I looked into it a fair bit myself and the general consensus every time was:
1. Not aggressive enough to do sufficient damage to justify the opening as compared to say, a 3gate FE
2. Not as economical as a 1gate FE
It was a weird in between of a 1 and 3 gate FE and it was hard to find situations where you'd want an in between. It just seemed like an aggressive opening that wasn't very aggressive at all.
Now comparing it the other way, as in opening 2gate FE with the intention of staying passive is counter productive since it is clearly less economical than a 1gate FE (massive probe cut plus significantly later nexus), and 1gate FE holds all sorts of aggression already. The only reason pros get screwed by early aggression is because they get very greedy in their 1gate FE variants. If you aren't comfortable dealing with early aggression, just use a safe variant?
I've never felt safe with any variant of the 1gate FE against Barracks-pressure, so I guess you could say that this is my safe "variant". It's no use having an economic advantage if you're just going to flat-out die when Terran does certain Barracks-pressures. You could argue that I should just get better at micro'ing my units, but I doubt I have the potential to get much better than I currently am: I'm incredibly surprised that I've even made it to Diamond considering how trash I am at this game As for the 3gate expand, I was messing around with that build a lot before seeing this build being performed because I liked the idea of being aggressive whilst expanding. Unfortunately, I've come to the conclusion that the 3gate pressure hits too late now that Warpgates have been nerfed, so it's rare that you do any damage. Still, I wouldn't say that this is between a 3gate and a 1gate because a 3gate gets tech much slower. IMO this is actually somewhere in between 1gate FE and 2gate Fast Obs, which is exactly why I like it.
That's perfectly fine, everyone is free to play the style the are comfortable with. If it works well for you keep doing it! As a last attempt to convince you though, I 1gate FE or nexus first in my PvTs and honestly the micro is nothing... It has more to do with your mechanics to execute the build cleanly, and just having units at a specific time. Honestly I could comment about how you have to focus fire marauders, kite marines, pull back weak units, judge when you need to pull probes, etc... but honestly 95% of the time if you hit your timings correctly and you didn't play greedy as hell, the micro is as intensive as a-clicking and watching him run away. The micro is not hard! =] and executing the build order down to the exact second isn't hard either!! It just takes some practice ^^
If I was the only one having problems with this then I'd probably agree with you. But since I'm not the only one who seems to have problems with 2rax builds when doing a 1gate FE, and since I've personally seen several pro players lose to 2rax builds using a 1gate FE (including Grubby, who has a level of micro I will never achieve), I just don't think it is safe.
EDIT:
And it certainly isn't safe in my hands.Last edit: 2012-02-29 08:14:33 |
| | EU Masters Protoss Playing For Team SC2Improve ~ www.sc2improve.org ~ "I'd rather play a strategy that is worse but that I feel confident in than play the better strategy not really feeling it and not being 100% behind it" - Grubby | |
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| Forbidden17 February 29 2012 14:16. Posts 664 | Profile # |
On February 29 2012 08:12 Sated wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 05:48 Forbidden17 wrote:
On February 29 2012 05:21 Sated wrote:
On February 29 2012 04:37 Forbidden17 wrote:
I think the viability of 2gate FE has been discussed a lot in the past, I looked into it a fair bit myself and the general consensus every time was:
1. Not aggressive enough to do sufficient damage to justify the opening as compared to say, a 3gate FE
2. Not as economical as a 1gate FE
It was a weird in between of a 1 and 3 gate FE and it was hard to find situations where you'd want an in between. It just seemed like an aggressive opening that wasn't very aggressive at all.
Now comparing it the other way, as in opening 2gate FE with the intention of staying passive is counter productive since it is clearly less economical than a 1gate FE (massive probe cut plus significantly later nexus), and 1gate FE holds all sorts of aggression already. The only reason pros get screwed by early aggression is because they get very greedy in their 1gate FE variants. If you aren't comfortable dealing with early aggression, just use a safe variant?
I've never felt safe with any variant of the 1gate FE against Barracks-pressure, so I guess you could say that this is my safe "variant". It's no use having an economic advantage if you're just going to flat-out die when Terran does certain Barracks-pressures. You could argue that I should just get better at micro'ing my units, but I doubt I have the potential to get much better than I currently am: I'm incredibly surprised that I've even made it to Diamond considering how trash I am at this game As for the 3gate expand, I was messing around with that build a lot before seeing this build being performed because I liked the idea of being aggressive whilst expanding. Unfortunately, I've come to the conclusion that the 3gate pressure hits too late now that Warpgates have been nerfed, so it's rare that you do any damage. Still, I wouldn't say that this is between a 3gate and a 1gate because a 3gate gets tech much slower. IMO this is actually somewhere in between 1gate FE and 2gate Fast Obs, which is exactly why I like it.
That's perfectly fine, everyone is free to play the style the are comfortable with. If it works well for you keep doing it! As a last attempt to convince you though, I 1gate FE or nexus first in my PvTs and honestly the micro is nothing... It has more to do with your mechanics to execute the build cleanly, and just having units at a specific time. Honestly I could comment about how you have to focus fire marauders, kite marines, pull back weak units, judge when you need to pull probes, etc... but honestly 95% of the time if you hit your timings correctly and you didn't play greedy as hell, the micro is as intensive as a-clicking and watching him run away. The micro is not hard! =] and executing the build order down to the exact second isn't hard either!! It just takes some practice ^^
If I was the only one having problems with this then I'd probably agree with you. But since I'm not the only one who seems to have problems with 2rax builds when doing a 1gate FE, and since I've personally seen several pro players lose to 2rax builds using a 1gate FE (including Grubby, who has a level of micro I will never achieve), I just don't think it is safe. EDIT: And it certainly isn't safe in my hands.
You see pros die to 2rax because they play more greedy in several areas. I.e. Cutting units to get an earlier nexus is very common. Compare the 1gate FE's now to the ones used a year ago, there's a huge difference in how much goes to getting units early on as compared to economy.
I've read the thread you linked and that is definitely a build you would have to be confident in your micro to execute. Use MC's 1gate FE, specifically the variant that chrono's out 5 units from the gateway before warpgate every time. The micro should not be very hard using that build |
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| aznkukuboi February 29 2012 16:25. Posts 119 | Profile # |
I've been doing the chitaprime 2 gate expo build almost exclusively every PvT. A 2 gate expo drops the expo at about 5:10 (or earlier if you drop before the stalker), which is not too far off the 1 gate expo.
It gets you 4 stalkers, 1 zealot, and 1 sentry to do a pressure attack. You can poke up the ramp at 6 min and see what's going on.
If the terran has a bunker and marines, you know it's tech. Back off, drop robom and cb obs.
If terran was doing a 2 rax expo. Then you have to guage how well you think this terran can respond and just how many forcefields you can land.
If the terran was doing a 3 rax all in. You can probably snipe the tech lab and back off. Just outmacro bc of economy advantage and win.
I've flat out won games against a 1 rax expo terran with 2 gates. The terran will bm saying stuff about cheese, but little does he know my nexus is already up and I only have 2 gates. If the terran has bunkers, I transition into a MC 6 gate pressure, but take a 3rd while doing it.
Pros of 2 gate expo: Can defend stim timing attacks. Can defend marine scv all in with proper micro and FF. Gets you more units so you can actually put pressure whereas you can't do that in 1 gate expo.
Cons: Not really many, just a little less eco than 1 gate expo, but not too much. |
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| Champ121 United Kingdom. February 29 2012 16:40. Posts 6 | Profile # |
On February 29 2012 05:48 Forbidden17 wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 05:21 Sated wrote:
On February 29 2012 04:37 Forbidden17 wrote:
I think the viability of 2gate FE has been discussed a lot in the past, I looked into it a fair bit myself and the general consensus every time was:
1. Not aggressive enough to do sufficient damage to justify the opening as compared to say, a 3gate FE
2. Not as economical as a 1gate FE
It was a weird in between of a 1 and 3 gate FE and it was hard to find situations where you'd want an in between. It just seemed like an aggressive opening that wasn't very aggressive at all.
Now comparing it the other way, as in opening 2gate FE with the intention of staying passive is counter productive since it is clearly less economical than a 1gate FE (massive probe cut plus significantly later nexus), and 1gate FE holds all sorts of aggression already. The only reason pros get screwed by early aggression is because they get very greedy in their 1gate FE variants. If you aren't comfortable dealing with early aggression, just use a safe variant?
I've never felt safe with any variant of the 1gate FE against Barracks-pressure, so I guess you could say that this is my safe "variant". It's no use having an economic advantage if you're just going to flat-out die when Terran does certain Barracks-pressures. You could argue that I should just get better at micro'ing my units, but I doubt I have the potential to get much better than I currently am: I'm incredibly surprised that I've even made it to Diamond considering how trash I am at this game As for the 3gate expand, I was messing around with that build a lot before seeing this build being performed because I liked the idea of being aggressive whilst expanding. Unfortunately, I've come to the conclusion that the 3gate pressure hits too late now that Warpgates have been nerfed, so it's rare that you do any damage. Still, I wouldn't say that this is between a 3gate and a 1gate because a 3gate gets tech much slower. IMO this is actually somewhere in between 1gate FE and 2gate Fast Obs, which is exactly why I like it.
That's perfectly fine, everyone is free to play the style the are comfortable with. If it works well for you keep doing it! As a last attempt to convince you though, I 1gate FE or nexus first in my PvTs and honestly the micro is nothing... It has more to do with your mechanics to execute the build cleanly, and just having units at a specific time. Honestly I could comment about how you have to focus fire marauders, kite marines, pull back weak units, judge when you need to pull probes, etc... but honestly 95% of the time if you hit your timings correctly and you didn't play greedy as hell, the micro is as intensive as a-clicking and watching him run away. The micro is not hard! =] and executing the build order down to the exact second isn't hard either!! It just takes some practice ^^
I agree that its easy enough to win with units chrono'd off of one gate vs a 2 rax, but now terrans have started building 2 bunkers whilst engaging, you cant both win the fight and stop the bunkers building (which the terran then runs his reinforcements into).
I've been doing the 2 gate for the past 2 weeks and its much safer, it kills a 2 rax easily with the power to stop those bunkers too, all whilst getting a 27 nexus. |
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