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| ChriseC Germany. February 27 2012 17:30. Posts 382 | Profile # |
Hey guys
ive been playing Dota since 6.48 and followed the comp. scene back then.
i also played competitivly on a relativly good lvl and i enjoyed it alot, but i just made a quit to the game half a year before dota 2 came out, because the lobby and disconnects annoyed me too much (everything just needed too much time).
now with the appearance of dota2 im very interested in the game again and got a dota2 key to play some, but i dont enjoy it that much as i used to.
i feel like the game became more lame in the way that i think some heros (mostly heros that were considered "pub heros" back then got highly overbuffed
im mostly speaking about heros like antimage, weaver and stuff like this. i feel like those heros dont need alot of skill compared to their reward and they are extreamly hard to punish and kill. i dont enjoy to play against them, i dont enjoy to play with them and i dont enjoy to watch them
back in "my" days heros like sf potm qop lina morph kunkka were very common and i enjoyed them alot and i think those heros are much more characteristic than the new ones, i just remember Yaphets (or PIS) beeing the sf king etc
do u feel the same way or do u not care about all this?
best regards |
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| shalafi February 27 2012 18:01. Posts 328 | Profile # |
Meh, heroes come and go.
The problem you're mentioning is more along "I want to see nukers instead of safe carries". Most of the hard carries are kind of lame (in the sense that they're very hard to kill, and they get unstoppable).
You mention AM and Weaver, but there's also Sylla, Lycan, Mercurial, Gorgon...
I assume when you say "Morphling" you mean nuker morphling. If not, I don't see how is he less lame than the rest of the hard carries. Once he gets a few stat items going, he's pretty much impossible to kill by less than 4 heroes.
And yes, it would be nice to see SF, but Smoke of deceit hits his viability hard.Last edit: 2012-02-27 18:02:53 |
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| ChriseC Germany. February 27 2012 18:09. Posts 382 | Profile # |
On February 27 2012 18:01 shalafi wrote:
Meh, heroes come and go.
The problem you're mentioning is more along "I want to see nukers instead of safe carries". Most of the hard carries are kind of lame (in the sense that they're very hard to kill, and they get unstoppable).
You mention AM and Weaver, but there's also Sylla, Lycan, Mercurial, Gorgon...
I assume when you say "Morphling" you mean nuker morphling. If not, I don't see how is he less lame than the rest of the hard carries. Once he gets a few stat items going, he's pretty much impossible to kill by less than 4 heroes.
And yes, it would be nice to see SF, but Smoke of deceit hits his viability hard.
ye but as far as ive seen lyca and sylla are very popular right now aswell.
ye i think its mostly about the carries and that i feel like they are very boring to me in all terms, as i said i dont enjoy playing them i dont enjoy playing against them and i dont enjoy watching them either.
a hero that i miss the most is shadowfiend or qop cuz i always felt that they are heros a player really could prove himself, with the safe carries i just feel like its farming for 30mins and whens gettin dangerous they escape ZZZzzz
also i feel like theres no real balancing in dota, its as u said a coming and going of heros |
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 TheYango United States. February 27 2012 18:12. Posts 15761 | Profile # |
| QoP is actually pretty strong after the buff. IIRC Crystal said in his G-1 League commentary that she should get played more in the new version, just that not many Chinese pros are that practiced on her atm. |
| | Tongfu icon until xiao8's back on a ganker role. | |
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| ZenDeX Philippines. February 27 2012 18:13. Posts 2830 | Profile Blog # |
The solution against heroes like AM and weaver is that these heroes needs to be ganked hard during the early stages of the game to prevent them from getting fat
...or you can just have your own team's AM/Weaver-type hero farm as hard and avoid dying.Last edit: 2012-02-27 18:14:18 |
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| rabidch Singapore. February 27 2012 18:14. Posts 8090 | Profile # |
sf potm qop lina are virtually unchanged (they are actually buffed now), potm still sees competitive play, qop is popular in pinoy dota. morphling was nerfed because he was a monster for quite a while, and he is pretty much very similar to AM, weaver etc. kunkka is just a meh hero now
invoker and wr are the new skill heroes (batrider too but he is meh in dota2) along with chen & ench for micro, and viable heroes like storm spirit, tinker, qop etc etc. hard carries existed then, they are just in a different form now, PL, spectre, medusa, OD, etc, and everybody has gotten better mechanics and better sense of metagame since 6.48 days. it is just the meta, really (i wish they would move onto latest version for tournaments now) |
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| Cel.erity United States. February 27 2012 19:18. Posts 3595 | Profile Blog # |
DotA is much faster than it used to be, getting faster all the time. A year or two ago, turtle/hard carry games were the norm, with most even games going 50-60 minutes. The metagame has changed a lot, and Icefrog continues to implement features to make the games quicker and hard carries less necessary. Right now in DotA2, most games are decided in the first 25 minutes, and you rarely see one player dominate a game. Push strats are the most effective thing you can do.
As for whether the current top tier heroes are lame or not, I guess that's up to you to decide. Personally, I found the old style to be much more strategic and interesting, and I love nothing more than seeing Spectre vs AM/Tinker in a massive farm war. AM (and I guess Brood?) are the only right-click wonders you see picked/banned frequently in DotA2, although Lycan will certainly fit the bill once he gets implemented. You've still got heroes like Chen, Invoker, NS, Furion, Windrunner that get picked all the time and make for a lot of exciting play.
I'm a DotA fan 100%, but it sounds like you may enjoy HoN. The focus there is a bit more on ganking, and those mobility-type ganking heroes you mentioned show up a lot more frequently. Valkyrie, Midas, Nymphora, etc. |
| | We found Dove in a soapless place. |
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 Kipsate Netherlands. February 27 2012 19:55. Posts 18150 | Profile Blog # |
| Depends if you find Medusa 60min farm games with no cooldown on buyback lame or not. Last edit: 2012-02-27 19:55:56 |
| | Park Ji Yeon/Ye Eun/Kang Min Kyung, T-ara/Wonder Girls/Davichi | |
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 flamewheel HANG KANG. February 27 2012 19:56. Posts 21497 | Profile Blog # | |
| | Clouds are making way for me. | |
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| dibban Sweden. February 27 2012 20:31. Posts 1160 | Profile # |
See the hero as a tool. AM is a sharp tool, but without the right user he is not the Katana +5 we all think of. The problem does not lie in "too easy", "requires no skill". It's that heroes like AM in the hands of a talented player lacks consistent and effective counters, which I can agree with might seem boring. I try to have a new outlook and challenge myself to defeat the seemingly imbalanced heroes with innovative play or picks. Either way, look at Mouz! They pick up Tiny and QoP alot and make it seem like the old ks.int times. All hope is not lost  Last edit: 2012-02-27 20:38:14 |
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| nihoh Australia. February 27 2012 20:49. Posts 937 | Profile Blog # |
| Competitively 6.49 was boss. Phase boots with armour = gankers had something awesome to wear that would protect them as well. Enchantress with proper life gank lol. But morphling and krob were sorta lame. |
| | Dont look at the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory. |
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| Elefanto Switzerland. February 27 2012 21:10. Posts 3553 | Profile # |
I know what you mean, especially in the AM / Weaver department.
It can be really frustrating to play in pubs were most of the people are either rus or bad, and there's not really team coordination or anything to gang these heros / prevent them from farming, and then you just lose lategame, even though you personally played well.
Also, we're currently lacking some of the good counter heros, either you're always going to pick Rhasta or another hard disable or you're depended on a good team / bad enemies. I think that will settle a bit down once more
heros are introduced in D2, like meepo, bane (who's currently on test) etc.
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| greggy United Kingdom. February 27 2012 21:19. Posts 889 | Profile # |
well this is exactly why the meta is shifting to push strats, no? as dendi said, why play a 60 minute game and risk losing if you can win in 20?
and of course hard carries require 'less' skill compared to gankers or heroes with skillshots (sf/mirana/etc) but they fulfill a role in a team and the team relies on them to win the game after however long it takes them to farm their stuff up |
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| Turbovolver Australia. February 27 2012 21:25. Posts 1637 | Profile Blog # |
It's funny you complain about farming heroes with an easy escape and then mention QoP. I know she is stronger when played with levels and ganking all over the place, but she has a great escape too and seems far from a skill-testing hero compared to countless others in the game.
I'm basing this off her HoN equivalent, though, so I could be a little offbase...
I guess there could be an argument that playing a ganking-style game instead of a farmfest requires more skill, but for example I'd say Weaver's ult gives far more room for big plays than anything QoP can do. |
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| Kuzmorgo Hungary. February 27 2012 21:39. Posts 725 | Profile # |
On February 27 2012 18:13 ZenDeX wrote:
The solution against heroes like AM and weaver is that these heroes needs to be ganked hard during the early stages of the game to prevent them from getting fat
...or you can just have your own team's AM/Weaver-type hero farm as hard and avoid dying.
Thats the point. They are lame because its very hard to gank AM/Weaver. The solution is pushing rather, and ending the game early. The mere presence of these heroes puts pressure on the opponent. But then again, I think there will always be heroes like that. For example Prophet is like, "you make a mistake, -1 or 2 tower for you sir", which imo is even more lame than AM or Weaver... |
| | "No, whine not! Play, or play not! There is no whine." | |
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| red_b United States. February 28 2012 00:01. Posts 929 | Profile # |
I disagree with the comment that you rarely see one person carrying a game anymore being part of the game design.
I think that skill levels have gotten to the point where all 10 people in the game are close enough in skill level that you rarely see one or two people who are just flat out miles better than everyone else.
usually game-changing performances happen on player's signature heroes and they wreck games. recall Artstyle's nightstalker during the international.
anyway I am happy that so many cool heroes get play. when I played dota everyone picked sniper, clinkz, etc. then farmed rapier + aegis while the rest of the two teams murdered each other to keep them alive. I thought the aegis change was really stupid at the time but I have to say I was wrong; Im much happier with the meta now than then.
2c. |
| | Those small maps were like a boxing match in a phone booth. |
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| Kznn Brazil. February 28 2012 00:14. Posts 5299 | Profile # |
On February 27 2012 19:56 flamewheel wrote:
I find them fun.
we all know that
<3 |
| | Bisu | Korok | TC | SingSing | Flash | |
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| Diizzy United States. February 28 2012 01:13. Posts 742 | Profile # | |
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| Ghostchanter United Kingdom. February 28 2012 01:32. Posts 52 | Profile # |
I think the main problem here is not that some hero's overpowered or easier to play, but what certainly bugs me is that - especially for dota 2 - it is just the same hero's week in and week out. LoL has god knows how many heroes, HoN is coming up to its 100th hero if I recall, and the original dota had loads too...is dota 2 going to trip up due to repetitiveness of the line ups boring players and spectators?
Also must big up the SF love in this thread, all through HoN and Dota 2 he has been one of my fav heroes ever to watch and to play. I am glad to see OD in the line up too.
More heroes please valve! |
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| emc United States. February 28 2012 01:49. Posts 2909 | Profile # |
| this game is fun, if you think you are entitled to something more hardcore then go back to WC3? There is a lot of entitlement on these forums. Game developers can do whatever the hell they want. |
| | take what i say with a grain of salt, make your own decisions and form your own opinions |
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