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| Gelenn United States. March 08 2012 18:47. Posts 82 | Profile # |
On March 08 2012 18:43 Tobberoth wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 18:35 Gelenn wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:21 Tobberoth wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:17 SF-Fork wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:15 Tobberoth wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:08 Stratos wrote:
1. Oh right you can actually sleep in the mines. And sleeping refreshes the spells. Nobody told you? Or are you ACTUALLY complaining about being unable to get a good shot at the clump of kobolds? I hope not.. Although I'm not quite sure what I'm hoping for here anymore.
2. Diverse the NPCs with another PC to disarm safely if possible.
3. Okay, so the game is retarded because it's forcing you to make up your mind and not just blindly follow the recommendations. That's a good attitude, I see. You would probably love to play a game like D2 that precisely tells you what to do in each and every step of the way. BG is not your mother, deal with it.
4. There's luck involved, yes. You have to account for that luck, you can either risk it or you can play it safe. Luck is involved in basically any game and dealing with it in BG is as easy and exciting as in any of the good games. Yes, you will sometimes fail. So what, does that make it a bad game?
You're complaining about a game being just random and lucky while it's a game that requires actual thinking and skill. And if you acknowledge the requirements, you call them "the game being retarded". Seriously, grow the fuck up.
1. So I should sleep one kobold, go rest, sleep another, go rest, sleep another? Please, do YOU think this sounds like good game design? If it works, it's even dumber, like a sleep spell literally makes enemies sleep forever. 2. I would find this to be an exploit, but sure, this could work. 3. Are you dumb? BG IS telling me exactly what to do, it's just lying about it. 4. I AM playing it safe, but in your opinion, playing it safe means "grind until it's made easy by you being overleveled". Thanks, that sure makes you seem like more of a "player" than me. I didn't say it was a bad game? I said "what where they thinking when they balanced the challenge", because at lvl 1, it's 90% up to pure luck.
Sleep is an area effect spell xD
He still said "one is enough because you can sleep", but it's not like sleeping will help if you only get 1-2 enemies with the spell and need to sleep all of them.
I know which part of the game you are referring to. It was certainly the most difficult part up to that point. However, I really don't know how you managed to get there without leveling up even once ><. Here's the best advice I can give you for that part (assuming level 1 characters): I assume you have a thief? Move said thief forward slowly and detect the traps. The first 1 at least you should be able to disarm without aggroing any kobald commandos. Next, hide that thief in shadows and get as far as you can without hitting traps. Then send a mage with sleep and cast it right before the closest kobald, or in a spot that is close to the kobalds without your mage being seen. Sleep has a 30' radius if i remember correctly, which is more than enough to sleep the vast majority of the kobalds. After that your thief will have ample time to disarm the rest of the traps and then your party can move in to kill the kobalds. They are correct, Baldur's Gate is not a game one can just breeze through. You have to strategize for engagements and pause often during them to issue orders. I'm actually going through Icewind Dale right now, and I find it to be much more difficult than Baldur's Gate ever was for me. I pause on average more than once every game second during battles to micro my party.
Hmm, I'm pretty sure imoen aggroed on the first trap when I tried it... but maybe I was just in a bad spot. I'll try your tactic and see if it works the next time I play the game. (Might be a while, finally getting ME3 today :D)
Best of luck to you! Remember, there is always more than one "best" way to win an engagement in Baldur's Gate! On low levels its true you don't have a ton of options, but think outside the box and you'll find it very rewarding.
What I wouldn't give to be able to play BG for the first time again... |
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| Tobberoth Sweden. March 08 2012 18:50. Posts 4545 | Profile # |
On March 08 2012 18:45 Stratos wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 18:34 Tobberoth wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:27 Stratos wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:15 Tobberoth wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:08 Stratos wrote:
1. Oh right you can actually sleep in the mines. And sleeping refreshes the spells. Nobody told you? Or are you ACTUALLY complaining about being unable to get a good shot at the clump of kobolds? I hope not.. Although I'm not quite sure what I'm hoping for here anymore.
2. Diverse the NPCs with another PC to disarm safely if possible.
3. Okay, so the game is retarded because it's forcing you to make up your mind and not just blindly follow the recommendations. That's a good attitude, I see. You would probably love to play a game like D2 that precisely tells you what to do in each and every step of the way. BG is not your mother, deal with it.
4. There's luck involved, yes. You have to account for that luck, you can either risk it or you can play it safe. Luck is involved in basically any game and dealing with it in BG is as easy and exciting as in any of the good games. Yes, you will sometimes fail. So what, does that make it a bad game?
You're complaining about a game being just random and lucky while it's a game that requires actual thinking and skill. And if you acknowledge the requirements, you call them "the game being retarded". Seriously, grow the fuck up.
1. So I should sleep one kobold, go rest, sleep another, go rest, sleep another? Please, do YOU think this sounds like good game design? If it works, it's even dumber, like a sleep spell literally makes enemies sleep forever. 2. I would find this to be an exploit, but sure, this could work. 3. Are you dumb? BG IS telling me exactly what to do, it's just lying about it. 4. I AM playing it safe, but in your opinion, playing it safe means "grind until it's made easy by you being overleveled". Thanks, that sure makes you seem like more of a "player" than me. I didn't say it was a bad game? I said "what where they thinking when they balanced the challenge", because at lvl 1, it's 90% up to pure luck.
1. What. Sleep will put 6-7 kobolds out of a 9 pack to sleep usually. Are we talking about the same game? 2. Why would you call that an exploit? It's just using means of the game to accomplish what you need. There's nothing exploitive about that. 3. No I am not dumb. A creature in BG is trying to show you the way and it's a good way, it's just that it doesn't say you can't stop by the road to prepare. 4. I just completed the quests that were in the reach while traveling to Nashkel mines. I wasn't overleveled, I was just playing smart, you were playing like a zombie, admit it LOL 
I did quests as well, I just didn't go around talking to every damn person in every damn town, which is more being a zombie than actually trying to make the game move forward IMO Maybe I misunderstood your second point, I thought you meant creating a new character from scratch (you can do that in multiplayer at least, right?) and use that. I would consider that sort of an exploit compared to just playing with in-game NPCs. If you meant finding an NPC who is better at imoen at disarming traps, sure, that wouldn't be an exploit. No idea where I would find one though Personally, I think it's ridiculous to claim it's "playing smart" to grind. Playing smart is generally something you consider about people who make it harder for themselves and still succeed. Since I did several quests on the way, I'd say I was playing smart enough. Again, if the game demands you do every single quest on the way to progress the story, I'd still say that's a balancing issue for low levels, it wouldn't be needed if the game was more forgiving when it comes to low hp.
Uhm nope I wasn't refering to adding a member in a multiplayer game, I didn't really think of that before and wouldn't use that, I guess I would call that an exploit, too. Anyway, the game most certainly doesn't demand you to do every single quest on the way. And I didn't do them either. It only demands you to, again, use your own brain while only giving you some basic advice. You can come up with a solution for each fight, you can replace someone in the party, you can buy a specific gear, or if everything fails you can go level up, or give up. My point is that there are way too many ways of getting your chances to a point where you are basically guaranteed success, to call the game random - and this is true from the very first levels. It's just that you don't know the game enough to tell. Anyway, this aspect of the game, where you get to experiment, get creative and are basically free to choose which way you want to deal with it, is what I consider to be the most beautiful part of the game. That's why I got a little angry reading your post, so sorry for that... Obviously we all have different expectations and standards for a game. Ending the discussion now to go finish a quest in Fallout 2  Peace out, and if you decide to try to beat the game again, best of luck - it can be a pain in the ass, just like BW, but if you conquer it, you will feel it was worth all of it.
Well, I didn't mean to imply that the game should be dumped down and you should be able to beat it at level 1, most certainly not. I just feel like the AD&D system lends itself to being a bit "broken" at lvl 1 because things don't really scale. You have extremely low hp, while normal arrows from a normal shortbow from a normal "lvl 1 enemy" can do really big damage, and there's very little you can do about that. I mean, you can sleep every kobold but one, but all he needs is one critical dice roll and you still lose a member. Sure, it's shitty luck, but if you're in a higher level situation, that can't happen because one arrow isn't enough, so luck takes more of a backseat role, and that was what I meant with "margin of error", one shitty dice roll shouldn't decide a fight.
That was my complaint, sorry if I made it sound like I think the whole game is a random pile of shit lol. |
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| SF-Fork Russian Federation. March 08 2012 18:56. Posts 1253 | Profile Blog # |
| The point is you just got out of Candlekeep :D It's only reasonable that a stray arrow in the eye with kill you! |
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| Tobberoth Sweden. March 08 2012 19:00. Posts 4545 | Profile # |
On March 08 2012 18:56 SF-Fork wrote:
The point is you just got out of Candlekeep :D It's only reasonable that a stray arrow in the eye with kill you!
Pretty funny actually, that's the reason I stopped playing BG1 all those years ago when it came out. I was like... 12 back then, played to the same frickin mines with a mage and got oneshot by an arrow from a kobold who I couldn't even see. I got so frickin mad, I don't think I ever started the game again, so I guess that's why I'm having such issues with the same part now
Difference back then was that I didn't realize you didn't have to have your character as a leader, so I could have had my glass cannon mage in the back... who knows, maybe this would have been my 20th run instead of my first if I had known that? ^^ |
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| -Archangel- Croatia. March 08 2012 19:09. Posts 3612 | Profile # |
On March 08 2012 18:20 Tobberoth wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 18:15 klaxen wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:11 Tobberoth wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:07 SF-Fork wrote:
On March 08 2012 17:58 Tobberoth wrote:
On March 08 2012 17:53 Stratos wrote:
On March 08 2012 17:30 Tobberoth wrote:
Good, the discussion is going in my direction as a "first-time player" of BG1 (played it when it came out, haven't touched it in years). What where they thinking when they balanced the challenge? I'm in nashkel mines, and arrows from kobolds literally oneshot my characters. AD&D is based on dice, which means a huge aspect of luck, especially when you don't have many options at a low level... but they didn't realize this and added a margin of error? Seriously, I'm at the part in the mines where there's a "bridge" with 2-3 traps on it and a big group of kobolds with bows on the other side. My characters literally die if they walk on the traps, so I have to have someone aggro the kobolds to come over the bridge as they are shooting arrows at me. One unlucky die throw and one of my characters are dead. It's just ridiculous how minsc who is supposed to fight on the front lines die to one arrow from a measly kobold because he has so low hp.
I reloaded that same part 4 times, then I stopped playing because I'm not playing BG to throw dice and it's getting ridiculous.
It's exactly 'players' with your attitude that cause companies to produce shitty games that even 8 years old kids can handle. Thanks a bunch. Why do you have problems in Nashkel Mine? Your companions will try to force you to go there from the very beginning, but you have quite a lot of time on your hands to explore the map and complete quests, level up and get good gear. When I finally arrived to Nashkel mines I didn't need to reload the game once. Besides that, there are SO MANY ways to deal with the fights at this level. If you can just cast Sleep before the huge engagements, you will always be left with like 1 kobold to deal with and 7 kobolds lying on the ground waiting for you to kill them - they're actually unresponsive and just die. There's trap disarming, there's stealth, there's webs, oh ffs. I could write a hundred different tutorials on how to deal with this and the game in general, but it can be summed up in just one sentence: You have to use your brain.Good luck playing games that don't require anything but a zombie sitting behind the screen, I'm sure you'll have plenty of success.
Such a fucking useless post, you basically insult me several times without offering any form of useful suggestions. 1. Sleep all the kobolds? With one sleep spell? Man, you must be fucking awesome at this game, that sounds impossible to do actually. 2. Trap disarming, while being attacked, which is still based on dice. Thank you, another useless advice. 3. Don't go to the mines, do other quests? Oh, so the game is just being an asshole by taking every chance it gets to make me go to the fucking mines, when I'm not supposed to? That's the game being retarded, not me. 4. How does it require more than a zombie to reload until you get a lucky dice throw? Overall, your whole post is based around the fact that if you aren't low level, you don't die to bullshit. Thank you, I already know that, the point is that the game is retarded when you're low level because they didn't add margin of error. Now how about you use your brain and either help out, or shut up?
You can disarm traps while being attacked and sleep most kobolds with one sleep spell if they're close enough together. Also even in my first playthrough in which I didn't even know how to disarm traps AFTER nashkel mines, I arrived there at least at level 2 on all my characters and I was able to finish it. Just by doing the Beregost quests you will level up! There is no way around it. In order to finish this game you just have get creative! Once you learn the details in the game, you will be able to handle bad dice rolls in the unmodded game with ease. Sidequestion: I wonder if anybody has been able to finish Sword Coast Stratagems or the Tactics MoD without reloading?
I'm not saying the game is impossible to play without reloading. I'm saying that at lvl 1, it's up to luck because you have no options and no hp, and even when you have options, you don't have enough time to do them because the very first arrow might very well get a kill. Of course I could leave the mines and grind, come back and a higher level and rofl my way through it, that's not the point I'm making.
I basically went straight to the mines (first time playing BG1) and didn't have that much trouble. A mage with color spray will knock huge amounts of kobolds out of commission. Also Jaheira has the bless spell which is pretty handy. I did make sure to buy decent armor for my characters and don't let my weak characters go first.
My Minsc has chain mail (i think) and was still oneshot by a kobold arrow. It's also a problem with this position, I didn't have any problem with the kobold groups before, because I have to pass 3 traps, so what I need to do is basically have imoen disarm every trap while slowly getting to the big group of kobolds who are constantly raining down arrows on me. Most of the arrows miss, sure, and sometimes they hit and only take half my hp... but the amount of arrows which will be shot at me before I can disarm the traps and get to the enemies are enough to give really bad odds when even my "tanky" characters don't have enough life to survive the hits.
You are trying to play BG1 in a way you play modern games. You expect just because you sent your fighter in front that you can tank successfully (like DAO did). The beauty of BG1 and BG2 was that you needed to approach each fight differently and use different tactics to defeat opposition.
For this fight you need to either back up and let them come towards you so you can attack them without traps in the way or change to ranged weapon for all your characters and kill them without going through traps. |
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| bgx Poland. March 08 2012 19:12. Posts 6516 | Profile # |
On March 08 2012 19:00 Tobberoth wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 18:56 SF-Fork wrote:
The point is you just got out of Candlekeep :D It's only reasonable that a stray arrow in the eye with kill you!
Pretty funny actually, that's the reason I stopped playing BG1 all those years ago when it came out. I was like... 12 back then, played to the same frickin mines with a mage and got oneshot by an arrow from a kobold who I couldn't even see. I got so frickin mad, I don't think I ever started the game again, so I guess that's why I'm having such issues with the same part now Difference back then was that I didn't realize you didn't have to have your character as a leader, so I could have had my glass cannon mage in the back... who knows, maybe this would have been my 20th run instead of my first if I had known that? ^^
Ah the beauty of being young and stupid, i remember when i was playing original C&C and my english was hmm close to non existant(i was 6-7 yo) and there was 1 mission for NOD when you had to sneak through the map to the other end, and because almost every other mission was designed to destroy every building my first thought was ok i need to destroy all the bases and units, but i had like 10 units ^^. It took me half a week of total grind doing the impossible, the funny thing is i did it (i was stubborn) because i found out you can outrange a turret (the only true obstacle) by positioning your buggy or other shitty unit in some weird angle and distance so the fire could not reach it.... |
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| -Archangel- Croatia. March 08 2012 19:18. Posts 3612 | Profile # |
On March 08 2012 18:50 Tobberoth wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 18:45 Stratos wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:34 Tobberoth wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:27 Stratos wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:15 Tobberoth wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:08 Stratos wrote:
1. Oh right you can actually sleep in the mines. And sleeping refreshes the spells. Nobody told you? Or are you ACTUALLY complaining about being unable to get a good shot at the clump of kobolds? I hope not.. Although I'm not quite sure what I'm hoping for here anymore.
2. Diverse the NPCs with another PC to disarm safely if possible.
3. Okay, so the game is retarded because it's forcing you to make up your mind and not just blindly follow the recommendations. That's a good attitude, I see. You would probably love to play a game like D2 that precisely tells you what to do in each and every step of the way. BG is not your mother, deal with it.
4. There's luck involved, yes. You have to account for that luck, you can either risk it or you can play it safe. Luck is involved in basically any game and dealing with it in BG is as easy and exciting as in any of the good games. Yes, you will sometimes fail. So what, does that make it a bad game?
You're complaining about a game being just random and lucky while it's a game that requires actual thinking and skill. And if you acknowledge the requirements, you call them "the game being retarded". Seriously, grow the fuck up.
1. So I should sleep one kobold, go rest, sleep another, go rest, sleep another? Please, do YOU think this sounds like good game design? If it works, it's even dumber, like a sleep spell literally makes enemies sleep forever. 2. I would find this to be an exploit, but sure, this could work. 3. Are you dumb? BG IS telling me exactly what to do, it's just lying about it. 4. I AM playing it safe, but in your opinion, playing it safe means "grind until it's made easy by you being overleveled". Thanks, that sure makes you seem like more of a "player" than me. I didn't say it was a bad game? I said "what where they thinking when they balanced the challenge", because at lvl 1, it's 90% up to pure luck.
1. What. Sleep will put 6-7 kobolds out of a 9 pack to sleep usually. Are we talking about the same game? 2. Why would you call that an exploit? It's just using means of the game to accomplish what you need. There's nothing exploitive about that. 3. No I am not dumb. A creature in BG is trying to show you the way and it's a good way, it's just that it doesn't say you can't stop by the road to prepare. 4. I just completed the quests that were in the reach while traveling to Nashkel mines. I wasn't overleveled, I was just playing smart, you were playing like a zombie, admit it LOL
I did quests as well, I just didn't go around talking to every damn person in every damn town, which is more being a zombie than actually trying to make the game move forward IMO Maybe I misunderstood your second point, I thought you meant creating a new character from scratch (you can do that in multiplayer at least, right?) and use that. I would consider that sort of an exploit compared to just playing with in-game NPCs. If you meant finding an NPC who is better at imoen at disarming traps, sure, that wouldn't be an exploit. No idea where I would find one though Personally, I think it's ridiculous to claim it's "playing smart" to grind. Playing smart is generally something you consider about people who make it harder for themselves and still succeed. Since I did several quests on the way, I'd say I was playing smart enough. Again, if the game demands you do every single quest on the way to progress the story, I'd still say that's a balancing issue for low levels, it wouldn't be needed if the game was more forgiving when it comes to low hp.
Uhm nope I wasn't refering to adding a member in a multiplayer game, I didn't really think of that before and wouldn't use that, I guess I would call that an exploit, too. Anyway, the game most certainly doesn't demand you to do every single quest on the way. And I didn't do them either. It only demands you to, again, use your own brain while only giving you some basic advice. You can come up with a solution for each fight, you can replace someone in the party, you can buy a specific gear, or if everything fails you can go level up, or give up. My point is that there are way too many ways of getting your chances to a point where you are basically guaranteed success, to call the game random - and this is true from the very first levels. It's just that you don't know the game enough to tell. Anyway, this aspect of the game, where you get to experiment, get creative and are basically free to choose which way you want to deal with it, is what I consider to be the most beautiful part of the game. That's why I got a little angry reading your post, so sorry for that... Obviously we all have different expectations and standards for a game. Ending the discussion now to go finish a quest in Fallout 2 Peace out, and if you decide to try to beat the game again, best of luck - it can be a pain in the ass, just like BW, but if you conquer it, you will feel it was worth all of it.
Well, I didn't mean to imply that the game should be dumped down and you should be able to beat it at level 1, most certainly not. I just feel like the AD&D system lends itself to being a bit "broken" at lvl 1 because things don't really scale. You have extremely low hp, while normal arrows from a normal shortbow from a normal "lvl 1 enemy" can do really big damage, and there's very little you can do about that. I mean, you can sleep every kobold but one, but all he needs is one critical dice roll and you still lose a member. Sure, it's shitty luck, but if you're in a higher level situation, that can't happen because one arrow isn't enough, so luck takes more of a backseat role, and that was what I meant with "margin of error", one shitty dice roll shouldn't decide a fight. That was my complaint, sorry if I made it sound like I think the whole game is a random pile of shit lol.
Actually at high levels you got spells that kill you if you fail one roll, so no, even at high levels AD&D is not absent of luck factor. And that is why we like it. |
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| Thereisnosaurus Australia. March 08 2012 19:20. Posts 1324 | Profile Blog # |
Just want to get my teeth into Viconia again. Makes modern Bioware 'romances' look like adolescents diddling each other without realising what they're doing... In fact, I don't think any non black-isle game does evil PCs anywhere even near the same league as BG/PST\
edit: do we actually have any new information other than code hints? Last edit: 2012-03-08 19:20:54 |
| | Poisonous Sheep counter Hydras |
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| Tobberoth Sweden. March 08 2012 19:27. Posts 4545 | Profile # |
On March 08 2012 19:18 -Archangel- wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 18:50 Tobberoth wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:45 Stratos wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:34 Tobberoth wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:27 Stratos wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:15 Tobberoth wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:08 Stratos wrote:
1. Oh right you can actually sleep in the mines. And sleeping refreshes the spells. Nobody told you? Or are you ACTUALLY complaining about being unable to get a good shot at the clump of kobolds? I hope not.. Although I'm not quite sure what I'm hoping for here anymore.
2. Diverse the NPCs with another PC to disarm safely if possible.
3. Okay, so the game is retarded because it's forcing you to make up your mind and not just blindly follow the recommendations. That's a good attitude, I see. You would probably love to play a game like D2 that precisely tells you what to do in each and every step of the way. BG is not your mother, deal with it.
4. There's luck involved, yes. You have to account for that luck, you can either risk it or you can play it safe. Luck is involved in basically any game and dealing with it in BG is as easy and exciting as in any of the good games. Yes, you will sometimes fail. So what, does that make it a bad game?
You're complaining about a game being just random and lucky while it's a game that requires actual thinking and skill. And if you acknowledge the requirements, you call them "the game being retarded". Seriously, grow the fuck up.
1. So I should sleep one kobold, go rest, sleep another, go rest, sleep another? Please, do YOU think this sounds like good game design? If it works, it's even dumber, like a sleep spell literally makes enemies sleep forever. 2. I would find this to be an exploit, but sure, this could work. 3. Are you dumb? BG IS telling me exactly what to do, it's just lying about it. 4. I AM playing it safe, but in your opinion, playing it safe means "grind until it's made easy by you being overleveled". Thanks, that sure makes you seem like more of a "player" than me. I didn't say it was a bad game? I said "what where they thinking when they balanced the challenge", because at lvl 1, it's 90% up to pure luck.
1. What. Sleep will put 6-7 kobolds out of a 9 pack to sleep usually. Are we talking about the same game? 2. Why would you call that an exploit? It's just using means of the game to accomplish what you need. There's nothing exploitive about that. 3. No I am not dumb. A creature in BG is trying to show you the way and it's a good way, it's just that it doesn't say you can't stop by the road to prepare. 4. I just completed the quests that were in the reach while traveling to Nashkel mines. I wasn't overleveled, I was just playing smart, you were playing like a zombie, admit it LOL
I did quests as well, I just didn't go around talking to every damn person in every damn town, which is more being a zombie than actually trying to make the game move forward IMO Maybe I misunderstood your second point, I thought you meant creating a new character from scratch (you can do that in multiplayer at least, right?) and use that. I would consider that sort of an exploit compared to just playing with in-game NPCs. If you meant finding an NPC who is better at imoen at disarming traps, sure, that wouldn't be an exploit. No idea where I would find one though Personally, I think it's ridiculous to claim it's "playing smart" to grind. Playing smart is generally something you consider about people who make it harder for themselves and still succeed. Since I did several quests on the way, I'd say I was playing smart enough. Again, if the game demands you do every single quest on the way to progress the story, I'd still say that's a balancing issue for low levels, it wouldn't be needed if the game was more forgiving when it comes to low hp.
Uhm nope I wasn't refering to adding a member in a multiplayer game, I didn't really think of that before and wouldn't use that, I guess I would call that an exploit, too. Anyway, the game most certainly doesn't demand you to do every single quest on the way. And I didn't do them either. It only demands you to, again, use your own brain while only giving you some basic advice. You can come up with a solution for each fight, you can replace someone in the party, you can buy a specific gear, or if everything fails you can go level up, or give up. My point is that there are way too many ways of getting your chances to a point where you are basically guaranteed success, to call the game random - and this is true from the very first levels. It's just that you don't know the game enough to tell. Anyway, this aspect of the game, where you get to experiment, get creative and are basically free to choose which way you want to deal with it, is what I consider to be the most beautiful part of the game. That's why I got a little angry reading your post, so sorry for that... Obviously we all have different expectations and standards for a game. Ending the discussion now to go finish a quest in Fallout 2 Peace out, and if you decide to try to beat the game again, best of luck - it can be a pain in the ass, just like BW, but if you conquer it, you will feel it was worth all of it.
Well, I didn't mean to imply that the game should be dumped down and you should be able to beat it at level 1, most certainly not. I just feel like the AD&D system lends itself to being a bit "broken" at lvl 1 because things don't really scale. You have extremely low hp, while normal arrows from a normal shortbow from a normal "lvl 1 enemy" can do really big damage, and there's very little you can do about that. I mean, you can sleep every kobold but one, but all he needs is one critical dice roll and you still lose a member. Sure, it's shitty luck, but if you're in a higher level situation, that can't happen because one arrow isn't enough, so luck takes more of a backseat role, and that was what I meant with "margin of error", one shitty dice roll shouldn't decide a fight. That was my complaint, sorry if I made it sound like I think the whole game is a random pile of shit lol.
Actually at high levels you got spells that kill you if you fail one roll, so no, even at high levels AD&D is not absent of luck factor. And that is why we like it.
How can one possibly like that? Having to be prepared, sure. Having to use proper tactics? Absolutely. Using proper composition? Definitely. But enjoying that a dice throw, nothing else, can force you to reload? I don't see how you or anyone else can like that. Luck just really has no place in games unless there's no other realistic way of doing it. |
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| Malkavian183 Turkey. March 08 2012 19:31. Posts 227 | Profile # |
I started playing from BG1 again after reading this. Man, the tactical depth of this game always amazes me even if after a level when you figure out the best way to play and half way through the game you basicly do same thing with regular encounters there always is a catch with bosses and quest end monsters (and dragons for BG2 ofc ^^).
When people say Atronarchs are bad ass I just want to say 'Bitch Please' and show a picture of a Pit Fiend or Glabrezu. |
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| -Archangel- Croatia. March 08 2012 19:40. Posts 3612 | Profile # |
On March 08 2012 19:27 Tobberoth wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 19:18 -Archangel- wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:50 Tobberoth wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:45 Stratos wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:34 Tobberoth wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:27 Stratos wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:15 Tobberoth wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:08 Stratos wrote:
1. Oh right you can actually sleep in the mines. And sleeping refreshes the spells. Nobody told you? Or are you ACTUALLY complaining about being unable to get a good shot at the clump of kobolds? I hope not.. Although I'm not quite sure what I'm hoping for here anymore.
2. Diverse the NPCs with another PC to disarm safely if possible.
3. Okay, so the game is retarded because it's forcing you to make up your mind and not just blindly follow the recommendations. That's a good attitude, I see. You would probably love to play a game like D2 that precisely tells you what to do in each and every step of the way. BG is not your mother, deal with it.
4. There's luck involved, yes. You have to account for that luck, you can either risk it or you can play it safe. Luck is involved in basically any game and dealing with it in BG is as easy and exciting as in any of the good games. Yes, you will sometimes fail. So what, does that make it a bad game?
You're complaining about a game being just random and lucky while it's a game that requires actual thinking and skill. And if you acknowledge the requirements, you call them "the game being retarded". Seriously, grow the fuck up.
1. So I should sleep one kobold, go rest, sleep another, go rest, sleep another? Please, do YOU think this sounds like good game design? If it works, it's even dumber, like a sleep spell literally makes enemies sleep forever. 2. I would find this to be an exploit, but sure, this could work. 3. Are you dumb? BG IS telling me exactly what to do, it's just lying about it. 4. I AM playing it safe, but in your opinion, playing it safe means "grind until it's made easy by you being overleveled". Thanks, that sure makes you seem like more of a "player" than me. I didn't say it was a bad game? I said "what where they thinking when they balanced the challenge", because at lvl 1, it's 90% up to pure luck.
1. What. Sleep will put 6-7 kobolds out of a 9 pack to sleep usually. Are we talking about the same game? 2. Why would you call that an exploit? It's just using means of the game to accomplish what you need. There's nothing exploitive about that. 3. No I am not dumb. A creature in BG is trying to show you the way and it's a good way, it's just that it doesn't say you can't stop by the road to prepare. 4. I just completed the quests that were in the reach while traveling to Nashkel mines. I wasn't overleveled, I was just playing smart, you were playing like a zombie, admit it LOL
I did quests as well, I just didn't go around talking to every damn person in every damn town, which is more being a zombie than actually trying to make the game move forward IMO Maybe I misunderstood your second point, I thought you meant creating a new character from scratch (you can do that in multiplayer at least, right?) and use that. I would consider that sort of an exploit compared to just playing with in-game NPCs. If you meant finding an NPC who is better at imoen at disarming traps, sure, that wouldn't be an exploit. No idea where I would find one though Personally, I think it's ridiculous to claim it's "playing smart" to grind. Playing smart is generally something you consider about people who make it harder for themselves and still succeed. Since I did several quests on the way, I'd say I was playing smart enough. Again, if the game demands you do every single quest on the way to progress the story, I'd still say that's a balancing issue for low levels, it wouldn't be needed if the game was more forgiving when it comes to low hp.
Uhm nope I wasn't refering to adding a member in a multiplayer game, I didn't really think of that before and wouldn't use that, I guess I would call that an exploit, too. Anyway, the game most certainly doesn't demand you to do every single quest on the way. And I didn't do them either. It only demands you to, again, use your own brain while only giving you some basic advice. You can come up with a solution for each fight, you can replace someone in the party, you can buy a specific gear, or if everything fails you can go level up, or give up. My point is that there are way too many ways of getting your chances to a point where you are basically guaranteed success, to call the game random - and this is true from the very first levels. It's just that you don't know the game enough to tell. Anyway, this aspect of the game, where you get to experiment, get creative and are basically free to choose which way you want to deal with it, is what I consider to be the most beautiful part of the game. That's why I got a little angry reading your post, so sorry for that... Obviously we all have different expectations and standards for a game. Ending the discussion now to go finish a quest in Fallout 2 Peace out, and if you decide to try to beat the game again, best of luck - it can be a pain in the ass, just like BW, but if you conquer it, you will feel it was worth all of it.
Well, I didn't mean to imply that the game should be dumped down and you should be able to beat it at level 1, most certainly not. I just feel like the AD&D system lends itself to being a bit "broken" at lvl 1 because things don't really scale. You have extremely low hp, while normal arrows from a normal shortbow from a normal "lvl 1 enemy" can do really big damage, and there's very little you can do about that. I mean, you can sleep every kobold but one, but all he needs is one critical dice roll and you still lose a member. Sure, it's shitty luck, but if you're in a higher level situation, that can't happen because one arrow isn't enough, so luck takes more of a backseat role, and that was what I meant with "margin of error", one shitty dice roll shouldn't decide a fight. That was my complaint, sorry if I made it sound like I think the whole game is a random pile of shit lol.
Actually at high levels you got spells that kill you if you fail one roll, so no, even at high levels AD&D is not absent of luck factor. And that is why we like it.
How can one possibly like that? Having to be prepared, sure. Having to use proper tactics? Absolutely. Using proper composition? Definitely. But enjoying that a dice throw, nothing else, can force you to reload? I don't see how you or anyone else can like that. Luck just really has no place in games unless there's no other realistic way of doing it.
Because it represents realism. You can be the best swordsman in the real world but if you step on a stone and lose balance and get your throat open you are dead. You can be best at resisting spells but if you suddenly see a girl that reminds you of your long lost sister and a spells hits you at that moment you are dead. Random rolls represent this stuff.
Modern games hold your hand and tell you that you are always perfect and outside sources can never harm you.
Random rolls also make each fight dangerous and exciting. Unlike boredom that was DAO and DA2. Last edit: 2012-03-08 19:42:26 |
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| Tobberoth Sweden. March 08 2012 19:49. Posts 4545 | Profile # |
On March 08 2012 19:40 -Archangel- wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 19:27 Tobberoth wrote:
On March 08 2012 19:18 -Archangel- wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:50 Tobberoth wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:45 Stratos wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:34 Tobberoth wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:27 Stratos wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:15 Tobberoth wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:08 Stratos wrote:
1. Oh right you can actually sleep in the mines. And sleeping refreshes the spells. Nobody told you? Or are you ACTUALLY complaining about being unable to get a good shot at the clump of kobolds? I hope not.. Although I'm not quite sure what I'm hoping for here anymore.
2. Diverse the NPCs with another PC to disarm safely if possible.
3. Okay, so the game is retarded because it's forcing you to make up your mind and not just blindly follow the recommendations. That's a good attitude, I see. You would probably love to play a game like D2 that precisely tells you what to do in each and every step of the way. BG is not your mother, deal with it.
4. There's luck involved, yes. You have to account for that luck, you can either risk it or you can play it safe. Luck is involved in basically any game and dealing with it in BG is as easy and exciting as in any of the good games. Yes, you will sometimes fail. So what, does that make it a bad game?
You're complaining about a game being just random and lucky while it's a game that requires actual thinking and skill. And if you acknowledge the requirements, you call them "the game being retarded". Seriously, grow the fuck up.
1. So I should sleep one kobold, go rest, sleep another, go rest, sleep another? Please, do YOU think this sounds like good game design? If it works, it's even dumber, like a sleep spell literally makes enemies sleep forever. 2. I would find this to be an exploit, but sure, this could work. 3. Are you dumb? BG IS telling me exactly what to do, it's just lying about it. 4. I AM playing it safe, but in your opinion, playing it safe means "grind until it's made easy by you being overleveled". Thanks, that sure makes you seem like more of a "player" than me. I didn't say it was a bad game? I said "what where they thinking when they balanced the challenge", because at lvl 1, it's 90% up to pure luck.
1. What. Sleep will put 6-7 kobolds out of a 9 pack to sleep usually. Are we talking about the same game? 2. Why would you call that an exploit? It's just using means of the game to accomplish what you need. There's nothing exploitive about that. 3. No I am not dumb. A creature in BG is trying to show you the way and it's a good way, it's just that it doesn't say you can't stop by the road to prepare. 4. I just completed the quests that were in the reach while traveling to Nashkel mines. I wasn't overleveled, I was just playing smart, you were playing like a zombie, admit it LOL
I did quests as well, I just didn't go around talking to every damn person in every damn town, which is more being a zombie than actually trying to make the game move forward IMO Maybe I misunderstood your second point, I thought you meant creating a new character from scratch (you can do that in multiplayer at least, right?) and use that. I would consider that sort of an exploit compared to just playing with in-game NPCs. If you meant finding an NPC who is better at imoen at disarming traps, sure, that wouldn't be an exploit. No idea where I would find one though Personally, I think it's ridiculous to claim it's "playing smart" to grind. Playing smart is generally something you consider about people who make it harder for themselves and still succeed. Since I did several quests on the way, I'd say I was playing smart enough. Again, if the game demands you do every single quest on the way to progress the story, I'd still say that's a balancing issue for low levels, it wouldn't be needed if the game was more forgiving when it comes to low hp.
Uhm nope I wasn't refering to adding a member in a multiplayer game, I didn't really think of that before and wouldn't use that, I guess I would call that an exploit, too. Anyway, the game most certainly doesn't demand you to do every single quest on the way. And I didn't do them either. It only demands you to, again, use your own brain while only giving you some basic advice. You can come up with a solution for each fight, you can replace someone in the party, you can buy a specific gear, or if everything fails you can go level up, or give up. My point is that there are way too many ways of getting your chances to a point where you are basically guaranteed success, to call the game random - and this is true from the very first levels. It's just that you don't know the game enough to tell. Anyway, this aspect of the game, where you get to experiment, get creative and are basically free to choose which way you want to deal with it, is what I consider to be the most beautiful part of the game. That's why I got a little angry reading your post, so sorry for that... Obviously we all have different expectations and standards for a game. Ending the discussion now to go finish a quest in Fallout 2 Peace out, and if you decide to try to beat the game again, best of luck - it can be a pain in the ass, just like BW, but if you conquer it, you will feel it was worth all of it.
Well, I didn't mean to imply that the game should be dumped down and you should be able to beat it at level 1, most certainly not. I just feel like the AD&D system lends itself to being a bit "broken" at lvl 1 because things don't really scale. You have extremely low hp, while normal arrows from a normal shortbow from a normal "lvl 1 enemy" can do really big damage, and there's very little you can do about that. I mean, you can sleep every kobold but one, but all he needs is one critical dice roll and you still lose a member. Sure, it's shitty luck, but if you're in a higher level situation, that can't happen because one arrow isn't enough, so luck takes more of a backseat role, and that was what I meant with "margin of error", one shitty dice roll shouldn't decide a fight. That was my complaint, sorry if I made it sound like I think the whole game is a random pile of shit lol.
Actually at high levels you got spells that kill you if you fail one roll, so no, even at high levels AD&D is not absent of luck factor. And that is why we like it.
How can one possibly like that? Having to be prepared, sure. Having to use proper tactics? Absolutely. Using proper composition? Definitely. But enjoying that a dice throw, nothing else, can force you to reload? I don't see how you or anyone else can like that. Luck just really has no place in games unless there's no other realistic way of doing it.
Because it represents realism. You can be the best swordsman in the real world but if you step on a stone and lose balance and get your throat open you are dead. You can be best at resisting spells but if you suddenly see a girl that reminds you of your long lost sister and a spells hits you at that moment you are dead. Random rolls represent this stuff. Modern games hold your hand and tell you that you are always perfect and outside sources can never harm you. Random rolls also make each fight dangerous and exciting. Unlike boredom that was DAO and DA2.
I disagree. There's no need for luck to represent "fuck ups" because the real player can do that himself. What if tanks did a random amount of damage in SC2 to represent the tank driver farting just as he's about to aim? Everyone would hate that since the game is supposed to value your skill instead of forcing you to play badly because a random number generator thought it would be a great moment to make a tank miss its target.
If I'm concentrating and doing my best, the computer shouldn't tell me "Oh you're doing good, but life isn't fair man. You're dead." If I die because I screw up, that's all the representation of realism you need.Last edit: 2012-03-08 19:50:01 |
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| Amnesty United States. March 08 2012 19:49. Posts 2010 | Profile # |
This thread really gives me hope because of how many of you appreciate the awesomeness of older games.
I remember saying warcraft 3 should have been 2D, and so many people told me to piss off in less nice terms at the time.
Now im going to guzzle some (stolen) invisibility pots and backstab some bitches.
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| | The sky just is, and goes on and on; and we play all our BW games beneath it. |
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| esKq France. March 08 2012 19:55. Posts 110 | Profile # |
On March 08 2012 19:31 Malkavian183 wrote:
When people say Atronarchs are bad ass I just want to say 'Bitch Please' and show a picture of a Pit Fiend or Glabrezu.
QFT
On the topic of the Nashkel mines, this area is the END of chapter 1.
It will be easier to finish this part with a full party of lvl 2 characters, that's all.
You can finish it with only lvl 1 characters but it'll be harder, it is simple logic. |
| | IdrA : "I don't play Terran coz I have self respect" |
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| Velr Switzerland. March 08 2012 19:59. Posts 5113 | Profile Blog # |
On March 08 2012 19:49 Tobberoth wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 19:40 -Archangel- wrote:
On March 08 2012 19:27 Tobberoth wrote:
On March 08 2012 19:18 -Archangel- wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:50 Tobberoth wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:45 Stratos wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:34 Tobberoth wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:27 Stratos wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:15 Tobberoth wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:08 Stratos wrote:
1. Oh right you can actually sleep in the mines. And sleeping refreshes the spells. Nobody told you? Or are you ACTUALLY complaining about being unable to get a good shot at the clump of kobolds? I hope not.. Although I'm not quite sure what I'm hoping for here anymore.
2. Diverse the NPCs with another PC to disarm safely if possible.
3. Okay, so the game is retarded because it's forcing you to make up your mind and not just blindly follow the recommendations. That's a good attitude, I see. You would probably love to play a game like D2 that precisely tells you what to do in each and every step of the way. BG is not your mother, deal with it.
4. There's luck involved, yes. You have to account for that luck, you can either risk it or you can play it safe. Luck is involved in basically any game and dealing with it in BG is as easy and exciting as in any of the good games. Yes, you will sometimes fail. So what, does that make it a bad game?
You're complaining about a game being just random and lucky while it's a game that requires actual thinking and skill. And if you acknowledge the requirements, you call them "the game being retarded". Seriously, grow the fuck up.
1. So I should sleep one kobold, go rest, sleep another, go rest, sleep another? Please, do YOU think this sounds like good game design? If it works, it's even dumber, like a sleep spell literally makes enemies sleep forever. 2. I would find this to be an exploit, but sure, this could work. 3. Are you dumb? BG IS telling me exactly what to do, it's just lying about it. 4. I AM playing it safe, but in your opinion, playing it safe means "grind until it's made easy by you being overleveled". Thanks, that sure makes you seem like more of a "player" than me. I didn't say it was a bad game? I said "what where they thinking when they balanced the challenge", because at lvl 1, it's 90% up to pure luck.
1. What. Sleep will put 6-7 kobolds out of a 9 pack to sleep usually. Are we talking about the same game? 2. Why would you call that an exploit? It's just using means of the game to accomplish what you need. There's nothing exploitive about that. 3. No I am not dumb. A creature in BG is trying to show you the way and it's a good way, it's just that it doesn't say you can't stop by the road to prepare. 4. I just completed the quests that were in the reach while traveling to Nashkel mines. I wasn't overleveled, I was just playing smart, you were playing like a zombie, admit it LOL
I did quests as well, I just didn't go around talking to every damn person in every damn town, which is more being a zombie than actually trying to make the game move forward IMO Maybe I misunderstood your second point, I thought you meant creating a new character from scratch (you can do that in multiplayer at least, right?) and use that. I would consider that sort of an exploit compared to just playing with in-game NPCs. If you meant finding an NPC who is better at imoen at disarming traps, sure, that wouldn't be an exploit. No idea where I would find one though Personally, I think it's ridiculous to claim it's "playing smart" to grind. Playing smart is generally something you consider about people who make it harder for themselves and still succeed. Since I did several quests on the way, I'd say I was playing smart enough. Again, if the game demands you do every single quest on the way to progress the story, I'd still say that's a balancing issue for low levels, it wouldn't be needed if the game was more forgiving when it comes to low hp.
Uhm nope I wasn't refering to adding a member in a multiplayer game, I didn't really think of that before and wouldn't use that, I guess I would call that an exploit, too. Anyway, the game most certainly doesn't demand you to do every single quest on the way. And I didn't do them either. It only demands you to, again, use your own brain while only giving you some basic advice. You can come up with a solution for each fight, you can replace someone in the party, you can buy a specific gear, or if everything fails you can go level up, or give up. My point is that there are way too many ways of getting your chances to a point where you are basically guaranteed success, to call the game random - and this is true from the very first levels. It's just that you don't know the game enough to tell. Anyway, this aspect of the game, where you get to experiment, get creative and are basically free to choose which way you want to deal with it, is what I consider to be the most beautiful part of the game. That's why I got a little angry reading your post, so sorry for that... Obviously we all have different expectations and standards for a game. Ending the discussion now to go finish a quest in Fallout 2 Peace out, and if you decide to try to beat the game again, best of luck - it can be a pain in the ass, just like BW, but if you conquer it, you will feel it was worth all of it.
Well, I didn't mean to imply that the game should be dumped down and you should be able to beat it at level 1, most certainly not. I just feel like the AD&D system lends itself to being a bit "broken" at lvl 1 because things don't really scale. You have extremely low hp, while normal arrows from a normal shortbow from a normal "lvl 1 enemy" can do really big damage, and there's very little you can do about that. I mean, you can sleep every kobold but one, but all he needs is one critical dice roll and you still lose a member. Sure, it's shitty luck, but if you're in a higher level situation, that can't happen because one arrow isn't enough, so luck takes more of a backseat role, and that was what I meant with "margin of error", one shitty dice roll shouldn't decide a fight. That was my complaint, sorry if I made it sound like I think the whole game is a random pile of shit lol.
Actually at high levels you got spells that kill you if you fail one roll, so no, even at high levels AD&D is not absent of luck factor. And that is why we like it.
How can one possibly like that? Having to be prepared, sure. Having to use proper tactics? Absolutely. Using proper composition? Definitely. But enjoying that a dice throw, nothing else, can force you to reload? I don't see how you or anyone else can like that. Luck just really has no place in games unless there's no other realistic way of doing it.
Because it represents realism. You can be the best swordsman in the real world but if you step on a stone and lose balance and get your throat open you are dead. You can be best at resisting spells but if you suddenly see a girl that reminds you of your long lost sister and a spells hits you at that moment you are dead. Random rolls represent this stuff. Modern games hold your hand and tell you that you are always perfect and outside sources can never harm you. Random rolls also make each fight dangerous and exciting. Unlike boredom that was DAO and DA2.
I disagree. There's no need for luck to represent "fuck ups" because the real player can do that himself. What if tanks did a random amount of damage in SC2 to represent the tank driver farting just as he's about to aim? Everyone would hate that since the game is supposed to value your skill instead of forcing you to play badly because a random number generator thought it would be a great moment to make a tank miss its target. If I'm concentrating and doing my best, the computer shouldn't tell me "Oh you're doing good, but life isn't fair man. You're dead." If I die because I screw up, that's all the representation of realism you need.
You don't seem to get it.
1: There are protection spells against all that stuff. So getting an unlucky roll just means you actually let the dices roll for you instead of your preparation.
2: Depending on the class you play the luck is really minor, some get staggeringly good saving throws and/or magic resistance while others don't. Guess which should "Tank" against Mages and other Guys that use those nasty spells?  .
3: These spells actually work both ways.. If your lucky enough you can one shot Dragons...
I mean:
Finger of Death:
You can slay any one living creature within range. The target is entitled to a Fortitude saving throw to survive the attack. If the save is successful, the creature instead takes 3d6 points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +25).
Also fun:
Power Word: Kill
You utter a single word of power that instantly kills one creature of your choice, whether the creature can hear the word or not. Any creature that currently has 101 or more hit points is unaffected by power word kill.
And tons others in all variations... |
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| Shockk Germany. March 08 2012 20:03. Posts 2267 | Profile Blog # |
On March 08 2012 19:49 Tobberoth wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 19:40 -Archangel- wrote:
On March 08 2012 19:27 Tobberoth wrote:
On March 08 2012 19:18 -Archangel- wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:50 Tobberoth wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:45 Stratos wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:34 Tobberoth wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:27 Stratos wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:15 Tobberoth wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:08 Stratos wrote:
1. Oh right you can actually sleep in the mines. And sleeping refreshes the spells. Nobody told you? Or are you ACTUALLY complaining about being unable to get a good shot at the clump of kobolds? I hope not.. Although I'm not quite sure what I'm hoping for here anymore.
2. Diverse the NPCs with another PC to disarm safely if possible.
3. Okay, so the game is retarded because it's forcing you to make up your mind and not just blindly follow the recommendations. That's a good attitude, I see. You would probably love to play a game like D2 that precisely tells you what to do in each and every step of the way. BG is not your mother, deal with it.
4. There's luck involved, yes. You have to account for that luck, you can either risk it or you can play it safe. Luck is involved in basically any game and dealing with it in BG is as easy and exciting as in any of the good games. Yes, you will sometimes fail. So what, does that make it a bad game?
You're complaining about a game being just random and lucky while it's a game that requires actual thinking and skill. And if you acknowledge the requirements, you call them "the game being retarded". Seriously, grow the fuck up.
1. So I should sleep one kobold, go rest, sleep another, go rest, sleep another? Please, do YOU think this sounds like good game design? If it works, it's even dumber, like a sleep spell literally makes enemies sleep forever. 2. I would find this to be an exploit, but sure, this could work. 3. Are you dumb? BG IS telling me exactly what to do, it's just lying about it. 4. I AM playing it safe, but in your opinion, playing it safe means "grind until it's made easy by you being overleveled". Thanks, that sure makes you seem like more of a "player" than me. I didn't say it was a bad game? I said "what where they thinking when they balanced the challenge", because at lvl 1, it's 90% up to pure luck.
1. What. Sleep will put 6-7 kobolds out of a 9 pack to sleep usually. Are we talking about the same game? 2. Why would you call that an exploit? It's just using means of the game to accomplish what you need. There's nothing exploitive about that. 3. No I am not dumb. A creature in BG is trying to show you the way and it's a good way, it's just that it doesn't say you can't stop by the road to prepare. 4. I just completed the quests that were in the reach while traveling to Nashkel mines. I wasn't overleveled, I was just playing smart, you were playing like a zombie, admit it LOL
I did quests as well, I just didn't go around talking to every damn person in every damn town, which is more being a zombie than actually trying to make the game move forward IMO Maybe I misunderstood your second point, I thought you meant creating a new character from scratch (you can do that in multiplayer at least, right?) and use that. I would consider that sort of an exploit compared to just playing with in-game NPCs. If you meant finding an NPC who is better at imoen at disarming traps, sure, that wouldn't be an exploit. No idea where I would find one though Personally, I think it's ridiculous to claim it's "playing smart" to grind. Playing smart is generally something you consider about people who make it harder for themselves and still succeed. Since I did several quests on the way, I'd say I was playing smart enough. Again, if the game demands you do every single quest on the way to progress the story, I'd still say that's a balancing issue for low levels, it wouldn't be needed if the game was more forgiving when it comes to low hp.
Uhm nope I wasn't refering to adding a member in a multiplayer game, I didn't really think of that before and wouldn't use that, I guess I would call that an exploit, too. Anyway, the game most certainly doesn't demand you to do every single quest on the way. And I didn't do them either. It only demands you to, again, use your own brain while only giving you some basic advice. You can come up with a solution for each fight, you can replace someone in the party, you can buy a specific gear, or if everything fails you can go level up, or give up. My point is that there are way too many ways of getting your chances to a point where you are basically guaranteed success, to call the game random - and this is true from the very first levels. It's just that you don't know the game enough to tell. Anyway, this aspect of the game, where you get to experiment, get creative and are basically free to choose which way you want to deal with it, is what I consider to be the most beautiful part of the game. That's why I got a little angry reading your post, so sorry for that... Obviously we all have different expectations and standards for a game. Ending the discussion now to go finish a quest in Fallout 2 Peace out, and if you decide to try to beat the game again, best of luck - it can be a pain in the ass, just like BW, but if you conquer it, you will feel it was worth all of it.
Well, I didn't mean to imply that the game should be dumped down and you should be able to beat it at level 1, most certainly not. I just feel like the AD&D system lends itself to being a bit "broken" at lvl 1 because things don't really scale. You have extremely low hp, while normal arrows from a normal shortbow from a normal "lvl 1 enemy" can do really big damage, and there's very little you can do about that. I mean, you can sleep every kobold but one, but all he needs is one critical dice roll and you still lose a member. Sure, it's shitty luck, but if you're in a higher level situation, that can't happen because one arrow isn't enough, so luck takes more of a backseat role, and that was what I meant with "margin of error", one shitty dice roll shouldn't decide a fight. That was my complaint, sorry if I made it sound like I think the whole game is a random pile of shit lol.
Actually at high levels you got spells that kill you if you fail one roll, so no, even at high levels AD&D is not absent of luck factor. And that is why we like it.
How can one possibly like that? Having to be prepared, sure. Having to use proper tactics? Absolutely. Using proper composition? Definitely. But enjoying that a dice throw, nothing else, can force you to reload? I don't see how you or anyone else can like that. Luck just really has no place in games unless there's no other realistic way of doing it.
Because it represents realism. You can be the best swordsman in the real world but if you step on a stone and lose balance and get your throat open you are dead. You can be best at resisting spells but if you suddenly see a girl that reminds you of your long lost sister and a spells hits you at that moment you are dead. Random rolls represent this stuff. Modern games hold your hand and tell you that you are always perfect and outside sources can never harm you. Random rolls also make each fight dangerous and exciting. Unlike boredom that was DAO and DA2.
If I'm concentrating and doing my best, the computer shouldn't tell me "Oh you're doing good, but life isn't fair man. You're dead." If I die because I screw up, that's all the representation of realism you need.
You apparently do not understand the point of a ROLE PLAYING GAME.
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| Tobberoth Sweden. March 08 2012 20:06. Posts 4545 | Profile # |
On March 08 2012 20:03 Shockk wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 19:49 Tobberoth wrote:
On March 08 2012 19:40 -Archangel- wrote:
On March 08 2012 19:27 Tobberoth wrote:
On March 08 2012 19:18 -Archangel- wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:50 Tobberoth wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:45 Stratos wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:34 Tobberoth wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:27 Stratos wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:15 Tobberoth wrote:
[quote]
1. So I should sleep one kobold, go rest, sleep another, go rest, sleep another? Please, do YOU think this sounds like good game design? If it works, it's even dumber, like a sleep spell literally makes enemies sleep forever.
2. I would find this to be an exploit, but sure, this could work.
3. Are you dumb? BG IS telling me exactly what to do, it's just lying about it.
4. I AM playing it safe, but in your opinion, playing it safe means "grind until it's made easy by you being overleveled". Thanks, that sure makes you seem like more of a "player" than me.
I didn't say it was a bad game? I said "what where they thinking when they balanced the challenge", because at lvl 1, it's 90% up to pure luck.
1. What. Sleep will put 6-7 kobolds out of a 9 pack to sleep usually. Are we talking about the same game? 2. Why would you call that an exploit? It's just using means of the game to accomplish what you need. There's nothing exploitive about that. 3. No I am not dumb. A creature in BG is trying to show you the way and it's a good way, it's just that it doesn't say you can't stop by the road to prepare. 4. I just completed the quests that were in the reach while traveling to Nashkel mines. I wasn't overleveled, I was just playing smart, you were playing like a zombie, admit it LOL
I did quests as well, I just didn't go around talking to every damn person in every damn town, which is more being a zombie than actually trying to make the game move forward IMO Maybe I misunderstood your second point, I thought you meant creating a new character from scratch (you can do that in multiplayer at least, right?) and use that. I would consider that sort of an exploit compared to just playing with in-game NPCs. If you meant finding an NPC who is better at imoen at disarming traps, sure, that wouldn't be an exploit. No idea where I would find one though Personally, I think it's ridiculous to claim it's "playing smart" to grind. Playing smart is generally something you consider about people who make it harder for themselves and still succeed. Since I did several quests on the way, I'd say I was playing smart enough. Again, if the game demands you do every single quest on the way to progress the story, I'd still say that's a balancing issue for low levels, it wouldn't be needed if the game was more forgiving when it comes to low hp.
Uhm nope I wasn't refering to adding a member in a multiplayer game, I didn't really think of that before and wouldn't use that, I guess I would call that an exploit, too. Anyway, the game most certainly doesn't demand you to do every single quest on the way. And I didn't do them either. It only demands you to, again, use your own brain while only giving you some basic advice. You can come up with a solution for each fight, you can replace someone in the party, you can buy a specific gear, or if everything fails you can go level up, or give up. My point is that there are way too many ways of getting your chances to a point where you are basically guaranteed success, to call the game random - and this is true from the very first levels. It's just that you don't know the game enough to tell. Anyway, this aspect of the game, where you get to experiment, get creative and are basically free to choose which way you want to deal with it, is what I consider to be the most beautiful part of the game. That's why I got a little angry reading your post, so sorry for that... Obviously we all have different expectations and standards for a game. Ending the discussion now to go finish a quest in Fallout 2 Peace out, and if you decide to try to beat the game again, best of luck - it can be a pain in the ass, just like BW, but if you conquer it, you will feel it was worth all of it.
Well, I didn't mean to imply that the game should be dumped down and you should be able to beat it at level 1, most certainly not. I just feel like the AD&D system lends itself to being a bit "broken" at lvl 1 because things don't really scale. You have extremely low hp, while normal arrows from a normal shortbow from a normal "lvl 1 enemy" can do really big damage, and there's very little you can do about that. I mean, you can sleep every kobold but one, but all he needs is one critical dice roll and you still lose a member. Sure, it's shitty luck, but if you're in a higher level situation, that can't happen because one arrow isn't enough, so luck takes more of a backseat role, and that was what I meant with "margin of error", one shitty dice roll shouldn't decide a fight. That was my complaint, sorry if I made it sound like I think the whole game is a random pile of shit lol.
Actually at high levels you got spells that kill you if you fail one roll, so no, even at high levels AD&D is not absent of luck factor. And that is why we like it.
How can one possibly like that? Having to be prepared, sure. Having to use proper tactics? Absolutely. Using proper composition? Definitely. But enjoying that a dice throw, nothing else, can force you to reload? I don't see how you or anyone else can like that. Luck just really has no place in games unless there's no other realistic way of doing it.
Because it represents realism. You can be the best swordsman in the real world but if you step on a stone and lose balance and get your throat open you are dead. You can be best at resisting spells but if you suddenly see a girl that reminds you of your long lost sister and a spells hits you at that moment you are dead. Random rolls represent this stuff. Modern games hold your hand and tell you that you are always perfect and outside sources can never harm you. Random rolls also make each fight dangerous and exciting. Unlike boredom that was DAO and DA2.
If I'm concentrating and doing my best, the computer shouldn't tell me "Oh you're doing good, but life isn't fair man. You're dead." If I die because I screw up, that's all the representation of realism you need.
You apparently do not understand the point of a ROLE PLAYING GAME.
Lol @ thinking the most important aspect of a role playing game is that it's based on luck. |
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| Tobberoth Sweden. March 08 2012 20:08. Posts 4545 | Profile # |
On March 08 2012 19:59 Velr wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 19:49 Tobberoth wrote:
On March 08 2012 19:40 -Archangel- wrote:
On March 08 2012 19:27 Tobberoth wrote:
On March 08 2012 19:18 -Archangel- wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:50 Tobberoth wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:45 Stratos wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:34 Tobberoth wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:27 Stratos wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:15 Tobberoth wrote:
[quote]
1. So I should sleep one kobold, go rest, sleep another, go rest, sleep another? Please, do YOU think this sounds like good game design? If it works, it's even dumber, like a sleep spell literally makes enemies sleep forever.
2. I would find this to be an exploit, but sure, this could work.
3. Are you dumb? BG IS telling me exactly what to do, it's just lying about it.
4. I AM playing it safe, but in your opinion, playing it safe means "grind until it's made easy by you being overleveled". Thanks, that sure makes you seem like more of a "player" than me.
I didn't say it was a bad game? I said "what where they thinking when they balanced the challenge", because at lvl 1, it's 90% up to pure luck.
1. What. Sleep will put 6-7 kobolds out of a 9 pack to sleep usually. Are we talking about the same game? 2. Why would you call that an exploit? It's just using means of the game to accomplish what you need. There's nothing exploitive about that. 3. No I am not dumb. A creature in BG is trying to show you the way and it's a good way, it's just that it doesn't say you can't stop by the road to prepare. 4. I just completed the quests that were in the reach while traveling to Nashkel mines. I wasn't overleveled, I was just playing smart, you were playing like a zombie, admit it LOL
I did quests as well, I just didn't go around talking to every damn person in every damn town, which is more being a zombie than actually trying to make the game move forward IMO Maybe I misunderstood your second point, I thought you meant creating a new character from scratch (you can do that in multiplayer at least, right?) and use that. I would consider that sort of an exploit compared to just playing with in-game NPCs. If you meant finding an NPC who is better at imoen at disarming traps, sure, that wouldn't be an exploit. No idea where I would find one though Personally, I think it's ridiculous to claim it's "playing smart" to grind. Playing smart is generally something you consider about people who make it harder for themselves and still succeed. Since I did several quests on the way, I'd say I was playing smart enough. Again, if the game demands you do every single quest on the way to progress the story, I'd still say that's a balancing issue for low levels, it wouldn't be needed if the game was more forgiving when it comes to low hp.
Uhm nope I wasn't refering to adding a member in a multiplayer game, I didn't really think of that before and wouldn't use that, I guess I would call that an exploit, too. Anyway, the game most certainly doesn't demand you to do every single quest on the way. And I didn't do them either. It only demands you to, again, use your own brain while only giving you some basic advice. You can come up with a solution for each fight, you can replace someone in the party, you can buy a specific gear, or if everything fails you can go level up, or give up. My point is that there are way too many ways of getting your chances to a point where you are basically guaranteed success, to call the game random - and this is true from the very first levels. It's just that you don't know the game enough to tell. Anyway, this aspect of the game, where you get to experiment, get creative and are basically free to choose which way you want to deal with it, is what I consider to be the most beautiful part of the game. That's why I got a little angry reading your post, so sorry for that... Obviously we all have different expectations and standards for a game. Ending the discussion now to go finish a quest in Fallout 2 Peace out, and if you decide to try to beat the game again, best of luck - it can be a pain in the ass, just like BW, but if you conquer it, you will feel it was worth all of it.
Well, I didn't mean to imply that the game should be dumped down and you should be able to beat it at level 1, most certainly not. I just feel like the AD&D system lends itself to being a bit "broken" at lvl 1 because things don't really scale. You have extremely low hp, while normal arrows from a normal shortbow from a normal "lvl 1 enemy" can do really big damage, and there's very little you can do about that. I mean, you can sleep every kobold but one, but all he needs is one critical dice roll and you still lose a member. Sure, it's shitty luck, but if you're in a higher level situation, that can't happen because one arrow isn't enough, so luck takes more of a backseat role, and that was what I meant with "margin of error", one shitty dice roll shouldn't decide a fight. That was my complaint, sorry if I made it sound like I think the whole game is a random pile of shit lol.
Actually at high levels you got spells that kill you if you fail one roll, so no, even at high levels AD&D is not absent of luck factor. And that is why we like it.
How can one possibly like that? Having to be prepared, sure. Having to use proper tactics? Absolutely. Using proper composition? Definitely. But enjoying that a dice throw, nothing else, can force you to reload? I don't see how you or anyone else can like that. Luck just really has no place in games unless there's no other realistic way of doing it.
Because it represents realism. You can be the best swordsman in the real world but if you step on a stone and lose balance and get your throat open you are dead. You can be best at resisting spells but if you suddenly see a girl that reminds you of your long lost sister and a spells hits you at that moment you are dead. Random rolls represent this stuff. Modern games hold your hand and tell you that you are always perfect and outside sources can never harm you. Random rolls also make each fight dangerous and exciting. Unlike boredom that was DAO and DA2.
I disagree. There's no need for luck to represent "fuck ups" because the real player can do that himself. What if tanks did a random amount of damage in SC2 to represent the tank driver farting just as he's about to aim? Everyone would hate that since the game is supposed to value your skill instead of forcing you to play badly because a random number generator thought it would be a great moment to make a tank miss its target. If I'm concentrating and doing my best, the computer shouldn't tell me "Oh you're doing good, but life isn't fair man. You're dead." If I die because I screw up, that's all the representation of realism you need.
You don't seem to get it. 1: There are protection spells against all that stuff. So getting an unlucky roll just means you actually let the dices roll for you instead of your preparation. 2: Depending on the class you play the luck is really minor, some get staggeringly good saving throws and/or magic resistance while others don't. Guess which should "Tank" against Mages and other Guys that use those nasty spells? . 3: These spells actually work both ways.. If your lucky enough you can one shot Dragons... I mean: Finger of Death:
Show nested quote +You can slay any one living creature within range. The target is entitled to a Fortitude saving throw to survive the attack. If the save is successful, the creature instead takes 3d6 points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +25).
Also fun: Power Word: Kill
Show nested quote +You utter a single word of power that instantly kills one creature of your choice, whether the creature can hear the word or not. Any creature that currently has 101 or more hit points is unaffected by power word kill.
And tons others in all variations...
I do get it, don't take my words out of context. He said he likes the fact that even at later levels, there are spells which will kill you, regardless of preparation, just based on luck. |
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| Shockk Germany. March 08 2012 20:12. Posts 2267 | Profile Blog # |
On March 08 2012 20:06 Tobberoth wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 20:03 Shockk wrote:
On March 08 2012 19:49 Tobberoth wrote:
On March 08 2012 19:40 -Archangel- wrote:
On March 08 2012 19:27 Tobberoth wrote:
On March 08 2012 19:18 -Archangel- wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:50 Tobberoth wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:45 Stratos wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:34 Tobberoth wrote:
On March 08 2012 18:27 Stratos wrote:[quote] 1. What. Sleep will put 6-7 kobolds out of a 9 pack to sleep usually. Are we talking about the same game? 2. Why would you call that an exploit? It's just using means of the game to accomplish what you need. There's nothing exploitive about that. 3. No I am not dumb. A creature in BG is trying to show you the way and it's a good way, it's just that it doesn't say you can't stop by the road to prepare. 4. I just completed the quests that were in the reach while traveling to Nashkel mines. I wasn't overleveled, I was just playing smart, you were playing like a zombie, admit it LOL
I did quests as well, I just didn't go around talking to every damn person in every damn town, which is more being a zombie than actually trying to make the game move forward IMO Maybe I misunderstood your second point, I thought you meant creating a new character from scratch (you can do that in multiplayer at least, right?) and use that. I would consider that sort of an exploit compared to just playing with in-game NPCs. If you meant finding an NPC who is better at imoen at disarming traps, sure, that wouldn't be an exploit. No idea where I would find one though Personally, I think it's ridiculous to claim it's "playing smart" to grind. Playing smart is generally something you consider about people who make it harder for themselves and still succeed. Since I did several quests on the way, I'd say I was playing smart enough. Again, if the game demands you do every single quest on the way to progress the story, I'd still say that's a balancing issue for low levels, it wouldn't be needed if the game was more forgiving when it comes to low hp.
Uhm nope I wasn't refering to adding a member in a multiplayer game, I didn't really think of that before and wouldn't use that, I guess I would call that an exploit, too. Anyway, the game most certainly doesn't demand you to do every single quest on the way. And I didn't do them either. It only demands you to, again, use your own brain while only giving you some basic advice. You can come up with a solution for each fight, you can replace someone in the party, you can buy a specific gear, or if everything fails you can go level up, or give up. My point is that there are way too many ways of getting your chances to a point where you are basically guaranteed success, to call the game random - and this is true from the very first levels. It's just that you don't know the game enough to tell. Anyway, this aspect of the game, where you get to experiment, get creative and are basically free to choose which way you want to deal with it, is what I consider to be the most beautiful part of the game. That's why I got a little angry reading your post, so sorry for that... Obviously we all have different expectations and standards for a game. Ending the discussion now to go finish a quest in Fallout 2 Peace out, and if you decide to try to beat the game again, best of luck - it can be a pain in the ass, just like BW, but if you conquer it, you will feel it was worth all of it.
Well, I didn't mean to imply that the game should be dumped down and you should be able to beat it at level 1, most certainly not. I just feel like the AD&D system lends itself to being a bit "broken" at lvl 1 because things don't really scale. You have extremely low hp, while normal arrows from a normal shortbow from a normal "lvl 1 enemy" can do really big damage, and there's very little you can do about that. I mean, you can sleep every kobold but one, but all he needs is one critical dice roll and you still lose a member. Sure, it's shitty luck, but if you're in a higher level situation, that can't happen because one arrow isn't enough, so luck takes more of a backseat role, and that was what I meant with "margin of error", one shitty dice roll shouldn't decide a fight. That was my complaint, sorry if I made it sound like I think the whole game is a random pile of shit lol.
Actually at high levels you got spells that kill you if you fail one roll, so no, even at high levels AD&D is not absent of luck factor. And that is why we like it.
How can one possibly like that? Having to be prepared, sure. Having to use proper tactics? Absolutely. Using proper composition? Definitely. But enjoying that a dice throw, nothing else, can force you to reload? I don't see how you or anyone else can like that. Luck just really has no place in games unless there's no other realistic way of doing it.
Because it represents realism. You can be the best swordsman in the real world but if you step on a stone and lose balance and get your throat open you are dead. You can be best at resisting spells but if you suddenly see a girl that reminds you of your long lost sister and a spells hits you at that moment you are dead. Random rolls represent this stuff. Modern games hold your hand and tell you that you are always perfect and outside sources can never harm you. Random rolls also make each fight dangerous and exciting. Unlike boredom that was DAO and DA2.
If I'm concentrating and doing my best, the computer shouldn't tell me "Oh you're doing good, but life isn't fair man. You're dead." If I die because I screw up, that's all the representation of realism you need.
You apparently do not understand the point of a ROLE PLAYING GAME.
Lol @ thinking the most important aspect of a role playing game is that it's based on luck.
Hyperbole much? You don't seem to get it, either.
The point of a role playing game is to play a role, preferably as realistically as possible (realism in a way that does not conflict with a fantasy setting, obviously). Your character is no immortal deity, no flawless fighter superior to all of his peers. Even the greatest make mistakes, trip, lose their grip in combat, accidently reveal things they shouldn't have said, lose their keys ... whatever. A real RPG will reflect this. And since you can't demand that a scripted computer game (or a real life dungeon master, for that matter) can manually consider the outcome for every scenario, dice rolls deal with this. |
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| esKq France. March 08 2012 20:34. Posts 110 | Profile # |
On March 08 2012 20:08 Tobberoth wrote:
I do get it, don't take my words out of context. He said he likes the fact that even at later levels, there are spells which will kill you, regardless of preparation, just based on luck.
Working as intended.
You are not "supposed" to be invincible even at high level, with the right protection/preparation those kind of situations are not likely to happen (they still can, but it's a game so it's normal even in FPS you can get instakill by a sudden headshot)Last edit: 2012-03-08 20:34:23 |
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