| Picklebread March 01 2012 09:23. Posts 790 | Profile # |
[G]Gas First Marauder Hellion
Overview
This build is designed to put early pressure on the protoss while getting a reasonably quick expansion. Think of it as another way of 2raxing. I always liked using marauder hellion in team games and as a unit composition it is really strong and ive been having decent success. This build allows you to apply alot of pressure early on before warpgate is finished while also getting a relatively decent expansion (i can get expo started at around 6 minutes). You also have a pretty clean way to transition into fast medivacs with stim.
The Build Order
10depot
11refinery
13rax
14(scout if not 2player map)
16orbital + factory + tech lab all the same time. When you start the tech lab after you get 28 gas pull 1 scv out of gas
16depot and marauder
@100% factory supply depot and a hellion, also pull a scv out of gas and get concussive shells so you have a total of 1 scv in the gas. That is enough to support marauder production out of 1 barracks.
@2 marauders move out
@400minerals cc and put 2 back into the gas
If you scout with scv a fast 2nd gas, then most likely protoss plans on getting a quick robo because he believes your going for cloak banshees or 1-1-1 something OF that nature. Proceed build as normal. If things get hairy when you go up his ramp like you dont think you can take him, run hellions around and go for the probes. Usually can get a sick amount of probe kills.
If you scout a single gas 75% chrono and hes chronoing the cybernetics core you can expect a 4gate. You wont know for sure until you check for an expansion @5 mins or so if you see none then just add a bunker to your ramp and play defensive. If he has an expansion coming up then pressure.
Microing
zealots you want to kite back with marauders but try and get good angles with the hellions. You can also bypass completely the zealots with the hellions and focus fire down the sentrys works pretty well too. After zealots go down (if any)
focus fire your marauders on one stalker and micro your hellions to get a good angle
micro your injured marauders one at a time by pulling one back when health gets a little low. Against quick immortals focus fire down the immortal with ALL units is absolutely key. If he pulls probes onto marauders hellions are going to absolutely wreck them.
Keep in mind with this push if nothing else you want to score probe kills. Hellions early game take FOREVER to die. If you slip a hellion in and theres only 1 stalker if you micro well i'd expect 2 probe kills. If you can slip 3 hellions in your going to get alot of kills.
Weaknesses
Obviously a 3gate stargate opener would be like just about impossible to hold with this build. Overall though i dont believe this build has alot of weaknesses, other then counter attacks can be hard to hold.
Replays
http://drop.sc/123897
http://drop.sc/124691
http://drop.sc/125322
I would appreciate any and ALL feedback as this is my first guide.
More reps coming soon ~Last edit: 2012-03-03 17:19:07 |
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| AGIANTSMURF United States. March 01 2012 09:35. Posts 1207 | Profile Blog # |
what if protoss just makes immortals and FF"s the ramp all day?
i imagine that like 3 immortals and any number of gateway units would be a bad day for you and this build.
not to mention that if you fail to do damage then a 1base or even more likely a 2 base all-in heavy with immortals will be really hard to stop since your light on marines and hellion DPS is bad unless they are shooting zealots that are lined up for splashLast edit: 2012-03-01 09:42:31 |
| | Thats "Grand-Master" SMURF to you..... |
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| ctypewriter March 01 2012 09:39. Posts 37 | Profile # |
| I don't play terran but isn't skipping the first marine a bad idea in general? Also what Toss compositions should you be afraid of? (Aka what should I do when a terran does this to me?) |
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| AGIANTSMURF United States. March 01 2012 09:40. Posts 1207 | Profile Blog # |
On March 01 2012 09:39 ctypewriter wrote:
I don't play terran but isn't skipping the first marine a bad idea in general? Also what Toss compositions should you be afraid of? (Aka what should I do when a terran does this to me?)
Immortals and gateway units, or just alot of gateway units microed/controlled correctly should be fine. |
| | Thats "Grand-Master" SMURF to you..... |
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| Gamegene United States. March 01 2012 09:40. Posts 6653 | Profile Blog # |
On March 01 2012 09:35 AGIANTSMURF wrote:
what if protoss just makes immortals and FF"s the ramp all day?
i imagine that like 3 immortals and any number of gateway units would be a bad day for you and this build.
Most marauder hellion builds are designed to punish greedy Protoss tech/Probe chrono off a 1 Gate FE or a Nexus First. This push will hit before any of his immortals pop.Last edit: 2012-03-01 09:41:59 |
| | "My love for Jaedong is like this: when I think of him practicing for 14 hours a day, my heart hurts and I want to massage his shoulders and make hot soups for him." |
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| AGIANTSMURF United States. March 01 2012 09:44. Posts 1207 | Profile Blog # |
On March 01 2012 09:40 Gamegene wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 09:35 AGIANTSMURF wrote:
what if protoss just makes immortals and FF"s the ramp all day?
i imagine that like 3 immortals and any number of gateway units would be a bad day for you and this build.
Most marauder hellion builds are designed to punish greedy Protoss tech/Probe chrono off a 1 Gate FE or a Nexus First. This push will hit before any of his immortals pop.
Yes, but your assuming I open like this. But if i see my opponent going gas first then Im either going to go 1 gate robo to rush out an obs or 1 gate stargate to rush out phoenix in order to deal with any banshee's
Im also going to have a stalker and at least 2 sentries before any pressure arives at my base.
I can go for a standard 2 gate robo into expand and be totally safe from this build |
| | Thats "Grand-Master" SMURF to you..... |
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| Fealthas March 01 2012 09:46. Posts 548 | Profile # |
| This sounds like the thing Illusion does except he proxies his factory and floats it into the protosses base and makes hellions. I have done it myself and so far its worked nice. |
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| xongnox March 01 2012 09:48. Posts 176 | Profile # |
On March 01 2012 09:39 ctypewriter wrote:
I don't play terran but isn't skipping the first marine a bad idea in general? Also what Toss compositions should you be afraid of? (Aka what should I do when a terran does this to me?)
In fact you had to skip the marine in order to rush the maraudeur because, with the gaz first, the rax is late ( so you will had maraud in time if the toss came with some chrono zelot/stalker poke ). But yeah a good toss will totally scout you with his probe until maraud...Last edit: 2012-03-01 09:48:19 |
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| statikg Canada. March 01 2012 09:53. Posts 929 | Profile # |
| Its a nice little guide! What would make it even better would be a couple more replays and a little bit more information about how you would react vs the more difficult protoss responses (obviously you dont need to go into how to lose to voidrays). Last edit: 2012-03-01 09:54:06 |
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| Picklebread March 01 2012 09:57. Posts 790 | Profile # |
On March 01 2012 09:48 xongnox wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 09:39 ctypewriter wrote:
I don't play terran but isn't skipping the first marine a bad idea in general? Also what Toss compositions should you be afraid of? (Aka what should I do when a terran does this to me?)
In fact you had to skip the marine in order to rush the maraudeur because, with the gaz first, the rax is late ( so you will had maraud in time if the toss came with some chrono zelot/stalker poke ). But yeah a good toss will totally scout you with his probe until maraud...
So would you think would be smarter i make a marine pull out 2 out of the gas and then a tech lab AFTER the marine? |
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| statikg Canada. March 01 2012 09:58. Posts 929 | Profile # |
On March 01 2012 09:44 AGIANTSMURF wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 09:40 Gamegene wrote:
On March 01 2012 09:35 AGIANTSMURF wrote:
what if protoss just makes immortals and FF"s the ramp all day?
i imagine that like 3 immortals and any number of gateway units would be a bad day for you and this build.
Most marauder hellion builds are designed to punish greedy Protoss tech/Probe chrono off a 1 Gate FE or a Nexus First. This push will hit before any of his immortals pop.
Yes, but your assuming I open like this. But if i see my opponent going gas first then Im either going to go 1 gate robo to rush out an obs or 1 gate stargate to rush out phoenix in order to deal with any banshee's Im also going to have a stalker and at least 2 sentries before any pressure arives at my base. I can go for a standard 2 gate robo into expand and be totally safe from this build
On a 4 player map with a little luck you could block the probe from getting in with the tech lab and it would look just like a 2maurader or reaper expand. |
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| UmiNotsuki United States. March 01 2012 10:02. Posts 633 | Profile Blog # |
Oh thank god, I was worried this would be a TvZ build and result in a huge wave of all-inning me on the ladder.
I like the idea of it, and using hellions in TvP is a novel idea that I'd love to see have some real success. Unfortunately, the lack of AA makes it a little cheesy, hoping your opponent doesn't react properly... still, a good build for BOX situations and any time you can sufficiently metagame your opponent. Thanks for the guide! |
| | UmiNotsuki.111 (NA), UNTReborn.932 (EU), UmiNotsuki (iCCup) -- You see that text I wrote above this? I'll betcha $5 that you disagree :D |
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| xongnox March 01 2012 10:08. Posts 176 | Profile # |
On March 01 2012 09:57 Picklebread wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 09:48 xongnox wrote:
On March 01 2012 09:39 ctypewriter wrote:
I don't play terran but isn't skipping the first marine a bad idea in general? Also what Toss compositions should you be afraid of? (Aka what should I do when a terran does this to me?)
In fact you had to skip the marine in order to rush the maraudeur because, with the gaz first, the rax is late ( so you will had maraud in time if the toss came with some chrono zelot/stalker poke ). But yeah a good toss will totally scout you with his probe until maraud...
So would you think would be smarter i make a marine pull out 2 out of the gas and then a tech lab AFTER the marine?
At least i thinks it's a good idea to hide/proxy the factory if he had his probe into your base, so the toss just think "he marauder expand, go make this greedy 1gate expand" :D then you rape him =)
If your make marine first he will however see the factory ( but this can be anything like 1/1/1, he can expand greedily but he will make an robo, opening dangerous counters... ) but maybe not the techlab if you chase his probe... but your timing pressure will be worse.
So : proxy the fact ? :D |
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| yoona2012 Denmark. March 01 2012 11:06. Posts 196 | Profile # |
Worst part about gas first is that you cant afford the first marine if you drop the fac immediately after barracks and dont cut scvs. This lets any worker scout have free room to scout your base for a really long time unless you make low wall off, which don´t work on tournament map.
It´s a cute opening, and it may catch some protoss offguard, but the cost is a semi-late expansion and its very weak to proxy stargate and not great for big maps where it is easy to forcefield the natural choke. I´d also imagine it to be harder to hold a 2 base 6-8 gate all-in compared to normal openings.
PS. Also if you send any scout earlier than 16, money will flow kind of bad and you dont have excactly 300 minerals when your rax finishes (150factory+150 orbital). And 16 scv scout will usually be denied by stalker.
On March 01 2012 09:57 Picklebread wrote:
So would you think would be smarter i make a marine pull out 2 out of the gas and then a tech lab AFTER the marine?
If you delay your factory by having less scvs on gas and making marine, you might as well go 12 rax, 13 gas instead of 11 gas 13 rax, since the standard opening is more economical and would have a factory around the same time anyways.Last edit: 2012-03-01 11:10:46 |
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| heeheehoohoo March 01 2012 20:49. Posts 3 | Profile # |
i do a similar build but with a different build order. usually this can kill 1 gate FE and pressure or kill other builds if they miss forcefields (except 3 gate stargate)
12 rax
13 gas
15 marine+OC
16 2nd marine
factory near ledge
tech lab on rax
start marauder with concussive shells
lift factory from high ground near ledge to the low ground and start hellion
push with 2 marines +2 marauder +5 scv +1 hellion
due to the fast move speed of the hellion and the shorter rush distance from floating ur factory down, ur 2nd hellion should arrive in time for the push
after this u can usually expand yourself or switch into a 1/1/1 all in which is very effective if you have dealt damage
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 Br3ezy United States. March 01 2012 20:57. Posts 720 | Profile Blog # |
| uh i believe you didn't cover how to micro against stalkers. tips? |
| | Check out my guide to mechanics http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319876 |
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| Rimak Latvia. March 01 2012 20:59. Posts 408 | Profile # |
A good guide, but it seem lacking any responces a toss can do.
Basically questions are:
1. Does it hold 4 gate
2. Does it hold 2 gate 3 stalker exp (basically mass stalkers)
3. ... some other stuff a toss can do =)
What is it weak against, except for void-allin.
Also 1 gate exp is not greedy. |
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| KAmaKAsa Finland. March 01 2012 21:00. Posts 209 | Profile # |
On March 01 2012 09:40 AGIANTSMURF wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 09:39 ctypewriter wrote:
I don't play terran but isn't skipping the first marine a bad idea in general? Also what Toss compositions should you be afraid of? (Aka what should I do when a terran does this to me?)
Immortals and gateway units, or just alot of gateway units microed/controlled correctly should be fine.
sure thats realistic since this hits at around 5:30 if toss goes 1 gate robo he dies |
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| heeheehoohoo March 01 2012 21:31. Posts 3 | Profile # |
On March 01 2012 20:59 Rimak wrote:
A good guide, but it seem lacking any responces a toss can do.
Basically questions are:
1. Does it hold 4 gate
2. Does it hold 2 gate 3 stalker exp (basically mass stalkers)
3. ... some other stuff a toss can do =)
What is it weak against, except for void-allin.
Also 1 gate exp is not greedy.
1. it is able to hold a 4 gate if you are prepapred and build a bunker. if the protoss catches you with your pants down when you are push and u dont have a bunker you are dead
2. yes |
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| panamared United States. March 02 2012 00:06. Posts 25 | Profile # |
yes this build sounds strong, but its not as efficient as a marine hellion opening with a reactor on the rax making rines and a fact making hellions and then moving out with 5 scvs for repair on hellions as well bunkers to go down. this is alot strong than a marauder hellion push(which is more for TvZ) because Z has to get lair to get any air units whereas protoss can go stargate.
also marine hellion helps counter most openings by toss if you scout correctly and see what build he is going/doingLast edit: 2012-03-02 00:14:58 |
| | ST_Bomber is too good! O_o |
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