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| Kickboxer Slovenia. March 19 2012 03:00. Posts 1039 | Profile # |
| Damn I've been waiting to play this game for years but now it's been "solved". Crap. |
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 lorkac United States. March 19 2012 03:31. Posts 2297 | Profile Blog # |
| Lol two high damage dps spells sounds like a silly thing to have in the world of damage immune hell mode d2 lol |
| | By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography |
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| cLutZ United States. March 19 2012 04:30. Posts 2879 | Profile # |
On March 09 2012 21:52 gugarutz wrote:.
Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 06:44 cLutZ wrote:
I do not know that this is the perfect team, I don't have the skills or time to know that. What I certainly agree with is that the Monk is a fundamentally flawed class, much like the Ret Paladin during Vanilla and TBC WoW.
If you recall, the Ret Paladin was a joke, however it also was a rollface pubstomping machine because of Seal of Command, particularly after the introduction of Crusader Strike. In other words, it was balanced on the blade of a knife. The monk has many of the same characteristics: IMO it will either be a fairly weak or fairly OP class depending on item level and the numbers on its auras and skills at release.
The OP recognizes the ability of the Monk to be overpowered, but IMO with a couple of alterations to scaling it is just as likely to be a complete joke.
you cant compare this, wow is a game based on group play and especially vanilla wasn't balanced on a class/player level but on a group level, and compared to nowadays very badly back then^^ (for example druids got a spot in raids ONLY for innervate which they had to spec for so they where forced into that spec etc etc.) and in wow blizzard is imo balancing weird on purpose so it keeps the player interested, one patch this class is op another patch another op class (expect warlocks lol - always op) since d3 is somewhat single player based they need to make every class viable and dont have that many problems wow has, for example keeping 25/40 man raids balanced at the same time as pvp... there are sooo many differences you cant compare it at all.
D2 was fundamentally imbalanced, particularly when you compared both PvP and PvM so thats really not a defense. The Monk is the only character with a significant healing spell. If healing spells are important, the Monk has just become essential to every team, if they are not, one of the Monk's defining features is pretty meaningless. Monk auras also seem to be stronger than most of the other characters' groupwide buffs. Basically, the Monk appears to be a very good TEAM player, but since D3 is going to be balanced around soloing (to an extent), if the Monk is on par with other characters solo, it will be ridiculous in teams. Or it could be balanced in teams, weak solo etc.
There are always balance issues at a game's launch, but IMO the monk is going to confound Blizzard years after release.
On March 18 2012 22:58 Kenpark wrote:
Show nested quote +While dac might have gone overboard with the theorycrafting, I don't believe for a second that Blizzard will solve the min/max issues. They've been making that claim forever in WoW and they've never even gotten close to it. There will be a most efficient build for every class that covers the most number of bases, and it'll become a cookie cutter for everyone else.
I dont think it is a big problem if there are cookie cutter builds. In WoW you had to spec in a certain way to get into raids, But this isnt WoW. You wont need every char minmaxed or specific group setups or even skype to beat the content.
/facepalm
This doesn't make sense. You can spec a melle sorc in D2 and beat the game, that doesn't mean its a good build, or a smart build. You wont "need" a good build and coordination to beat content, but you will if you are underleveled, or undergeared. You are essentially arguing that the Hammerdin is not overpowered because its not essential for farming. Sure, you dont HAVE to take battle orders on a Barb, but if you don't you are an idiot.
*edit*
On March 19 2012 04:38 Wildmoon wrote:
Who care? This is not WoW. People will play whatever class they wantas long as it's viable.
Sure, but that doesn't mean it isnt a good play.Last edit: 2012-03-19 04:39:47 |
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| Wildmoon Thailand. March 19 2012 04:38. Posts 2680 | Profile # |
| Who care? This is not WoW. People will play whatever class they wantas long as it's viable. |
| | "A man is what he chooses to be" |
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| Masq Canada. March 19 2012 04:47. Posts 1497 | Profile Blog # |
Its a hack and slash game, you think they plan to balance it?
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| NotSorry United States. March 19 2012 05:07. Posts 5327 | Profile Blog # |
| With good team work on kiting I would say a mix of 4 demonhunters and wizards with that much damage/slows/knockbacks/escapes nothing should ever touch you |
| | We have now sunk to a depth at which restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. - Orwell |
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| Playguuu United States. March 19 2012 05:27. Posts 882 | Profile # |
| Oh wow it sounds like this guy has played the entire game already. I'm slightly jealous. |
| | I used to be just like you, then I took a sweetroll to the knee. |
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| sizablelight Finland. March 19 2012 06:27. Posts 6 | Profile # | |
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| Kenpark Germany. March 19 2012 07:32. Posts 484 | Profile # |
This doesn't make sense. You can spec a melle sorc in D2 and beat the game, that doesn't mean its a good build, or a smart build. You wont "need" a good build and coordination to beat content, but you will if you are underleveled, or undergeared. You are essentially arguing that the Hammerdin is not overpowered because its not essential for farming. Sure, you dont HAVE to take battle orders on a Barb, but if you don't you are an idiot.
The big difference is that as a melee sorc you wouldnt get invited to raids and so are unable to see the content. A problem you just dont have in diablo. The melee sorc player doesnt care if somebody else can kill things 20% faster than him as long as the build he is using is viable too.
If some builds are way way stronger than others they obv will get nerfed. But there isnt the need to balance as good as in WoW.
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| Serpico March 19 2012 07:35. Posts 3919 | Profile # |
| Saying the game can't be "solved" isn't true...there will always be builds that streamroll content at some point. Blizzard wont need to rebalance skills after release if people couldn't find OP builds and stuff. I'm sure they dont want another hammerdin for example. |
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| cLutZ United States. March 19 2012 07:50. Posts 2879 | Profile # |
On March 19 2012 07:32 Kenpark wrote:
Show nested quote +This doesn't make sense. You can spec a melle sorc in D2 and beat the game, that doesn't mean its a good build, or a smart build. You wont "need" a good build and coordination to beat content, but you will if you are underleveled, or undergeared. You are essentially arguing that the Hammerdin is not overpowered because its not essential for farming. Sure, you dont HAVE to take battle orders on a Barb, but if you don't you are an idiot.
The big difference is that as a melee sorc you wouldnt get invited to raids and so are unable to see the content. A problem you just dont have in diablo. The melee sorc player doesnt care if somebody else can kill things 20% faster than him as long as the build he is using is viable too. If some builds are way way stronger than others they obv will get nerfed. But there isnt the need to balance as good as in WoW.
That is just laziness. The game should be balanced. Why would you argue in favor of poor balancing? Moreover, the melle sorc differential is not 20%, it is more like 200%. In WoW you need to gear and spec properly to get invited to raids because people want to progress optimally, because people can control who raids with them.
You can bet that if there are very difficult encounters in "Inferno" that underperforming classes and specs wont be invited. |
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| FinestHour United States. March 19 2012 08:09. Posts 6650 | Profile # |
| Noticed this was bumped and dacthehork had the nuke sign, what post did he get it in for? |
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| Zexion Sweden. March 19 2012 08:29. Posts 543 | Profile Blog # |
On March 06 2012 05:32 Barrin wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 20:45 Zexion wrote:
I'm sure they'd want an expert like you...
Blizzard is actually saturated with high quality in-house alpha/beta testers (they said so themselves, it is partly why this beta is so tiny).
Yeah, I was being sarcastic  Sorry for not making that clear. |
| | My life for Ner'zh- ...Er, I mean Aiur. |
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| QuothTheRaven United States. March 19 2012 08:35. Posts 5512 | Profile # |
On March 19 2012 08:09 FinestHour wrote:
Noticed this was bumped and dacthehork had the nuke sign, what post did he get it in for?
If you check his profile, you can see his last post was this:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=318760#1
No worries, though: it was only a temp ban, so he'll soon return to enlighten us on D3 strategy!
@sizablelight -- I think we'll have to wait and see about the difficulty before we can determine if stacking party-wide defensive skills and damage mitigation gear will be worthwhile or not. In D2, for example, it was worthless unless you were playing hardcore: the occasional death would slow down your farming, but not nearly as much as cutting your DPS for survivability would. In hardcore, of course, everything changes, because players need to make enormous DPS sacrifices to cover those rare fringe cases. Last edit: 2012-03-19 08:44:21 |
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| Kenpark Germany. March 19 2012 09:13. Posts 484 | Profile # |
That is just laziness. The game should be balanced. Why would you argue in favor of poor balancing? Moreover, the melle sorc differential is not 20%, it is more like 200%. In WoW you need to gear and spec properly to get invited to raids because people want to progress optimally, because people can control who raids with them.
You can bet that if there are very difficult encounters in "Inferno" that underperforming classes and specs wont be invited.
I think its too hard to balance all specs and all classes so they are around 5-10% difference. Of course sth like the hammerdin or sorc at the beginning of LoD will be balanced.but there is no way to get everything balanced.
In WoW you could run Testruns on Patchwork for example and have a good estimation for all raidbosses. But how could you do that in diablo ? There will always be areas where some classes are better than others.
Lets take Diablo 2. So whats the benchmark to balance around ? Who clears CS the fastest ? Who can kill the waves of Baal the fastest ? Who gets through the game in general the fastest ? Hammerdins were shit in these wormholes in act 2 for example. What if a area like that has the highest density of monsters in the game and is therefore the best place to farm ? Will they balance around just who clears that the fastest ?
I wish they would make this a rly hard game, but sadly the casuals and this is a game for casuals dont like that. Blizzard said Sunwell was the badest raid they ever did. Because only dunno like 90% of the whole population ever saw anything besides the first trash mobs. Infact it was one of the best. But the direction Blizzard took with WoW and the genre of Diablo tell me that there will be nothing in this game that will be rly hard.
Average Joe and his gf want to play together with nobody else and they want to beat the game like that. And they dont wanna be told what class to roll. And around that Diablo will be balanced.
As I said, I hope Im wrong but this is my estimation.
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| cLutZ United States. March 19 2012 12:15. Posts 2879 | Profile # |
On March 19 2012 09:13 Kenpark wrote:
Show nested quote +That is just laziness. The game should be balanced. Why would you argue in favor of poor balancing? Moreover, the melle sorc differential is not 20%, it is more like 200%. In WoW you need to gear and spec properly to get invited to raids because people want to progress optimally, because people can control who raids with them.
You can bet that if there are very difficult encounters in "Inferno" that underperforming classes and specs wont be invited.
I think its too hard to balance all specs and all classes so they are around 5-10% difference. Of course sth like the hammerdin or sorc at the beginning of LoD will be balanced.but there is no way to get everything balanced. In WoW you could run Testruns on Patchwork for example and have a good estimation for all raidbosses. But how could you do that in diablo ? There will always be areas where some classes are better than others. Lets take Diablo 2. So whats the benchmark to balance around ? Who clears CS the fastest ? Who can kill the waves of Baal the fastest ? Who gets through the game in general the fastest ? Hammerdins were shit in these wormholes in act 2 for example. What if a area like that has the highest density of monsters in the game and is therefore the best place to farm ? Will they balance around just who clears that the fastest ? I wish they would make this a rly hard game, but sadly the casuals and this is a game for casuals dont like that. Blizzard said Sunwell was the badest raid they ever did. Because only dunno like 90% of the whole population ever saw anything besides the first trash mobs. Infact it was one of the best. But the direction Blizzard took with WoW and the genre of Diablo tell me that there will be nothing in this game that will be rly hard. Average Joe and his gf want to play together with nobody else and they want to beat the game like that. And they dont wanna be told what class to roll. And around that Diablo will be balanced. As I said, I hope Im wrong but this is my estimation.
Balancing all the specs for all the classes is probably impossible because some specs are supposed to suck. You pointed out a good question: What do you balanced based on?
I think that is Blizzard's biggest design challenge with the Monk. It is the only character with a reliable heal (Mantra and BOH), however healing could be more or less worthless depending on orb spawns etc. I personally think that Blizzard is going to overrate the usefulness of healing for the Monk and give him a weak overall damage-set, meaning the monk will be support-ish.
Going back to your D2 question of how we should evaluate a class/spec. A few factors:
1. Speed of clearing the main leveling area (currently Throne).
2. Speed of rushing characters through hell.
3. Both 1 and 2 when undergeared.
4. Ability to clear Ubers.
5. Survivability.
Paladins are OP in D2, not simply because they throw super powerful hammers, but because they can have super spellcaster power (even the Maggot Lair, actually not on some A3 animals) while using Holy Shield which makes even a glass cannon into a tank. Smite is the best boss-killing move in the game, auras are incredibly powerful partywide buffs. All this can be done as a paladin without good gear, and its ridiculous with good gear (a summon necro is fine with no gear but doesn't scale nearly as well, and you cant even clear hell with a sorc in a reasonable time without great gear). Its no one factor that makes the current paladin great, it is a multitude of things. I don't anticipate such blatant domination in D3, but I do anticipate that one or more class(es) will be similar to the Druid: Serviceable, but not ideal.
PVP vs. PVM is far to complex to analyze without having the finished product, so I won't. |
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| Avalain Canada. March 20 2012 00:57. Posts 307 | Profile # |
On March 19 2012 09:13 Kenpark wrote:
I wish they would make this a rly hard game, but sadly the casuals and this is a game for casuals dont like that. Blizzard said Sunwell was the badest raid they ever did. Because only dunno like 90% of the whole population ever saw anything besides the first trash mobs. Infact it was one of the best. But the direction Blizzard took with WoW and the genre of Diablo tell me that there will be nothing in this game that will be rly hard.
Average Joe and his gf want to play together with nobody else and they want to beat the game like that. And they dont wanna be told what class to roll. And around that Diablo will be balanced.
As I said, I hope Im wrong but this is my estimation.
Diablo and WoW have a very important difference when talking about casuals. In WoW you have to get to max level and do some dungeons and raids in order to experience all of the content. With Diablo you really just have to get through the game on normal. And, in fact, this is what most casual players are going to do. They will play through the game on normal and perhaps follow up on nightmare. I'd say there is a better chance of a casual player playing through normal with every character than for them to get through inferno. Average Joe and his gf are going to beat the game on normal difficulty. This he is going to quit and his gf will keep playing until halfway through nightmare before she gets bored and they both move on to something else.
The reality is that hell and inferno levels aren't made for casual players and this is where Blizzard can and will make the game difficult. Will it be hard enough for you? We won't know until it's released. But what we do know is that the Diablo difficultly levels present a unique situation where they can allow casual players to see all available content while still giving hard core (not "hardcore" necessarily) players a challenge. |
| | You know what unit really has balance problems? Colossi. Why, they look like they could be blown over in a stiff wind! |
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| Grumpel Germany. March 20 2012 01:03. Posts 29 | Profile # |
| my version of an ideal party: 4 friends that understand the game and have fun togehter. |
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| Avalain Canada. March 20 2012 01:12. Posts 307 | Profile # |
On March 20 2012 01:03 Grumpel wrote:
my version of an ideal party: 4 friends that understand the game and have fun togehter.
Yes!
Actually, I'm ok with just 4 friends that have fun together. |
| | You know what unit really has balance problems? Colossi. Why, they look like they could be blown over in a stiff wind! |
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| Jermstuddog United States. March 20 2012 04:32. Posts 2051 | Profile Blog # |
On March 20 2012 01:12 Avalain wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 01:03 Grumpel wrote:
my version of an ideal party: 4 friends that understand the game and have fun togehter.
Yes! Actually, I'm ok with just 4 friends that have fun together.
I prefer 3 friends on vent and one poor random bastard to talk shit about all night...
Probably not optimal though... |
| | As it turns out, marines don't actually cost any money -Jinro | |
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