| Westy England. March 06 2012 22:55. Posts 679 | Profile Blog # |
I am a mid/high masters protoss player (Currently at 500 points with 100 bonus points as I haven't played in a week), and I have recently been encountering (and having trouble with) very greedy Terrans. Most recently a terran went Rax, CC, CC 3 more rax, then got quick 1/1 and medivacs.
What am I supposed to do against this? I use the feast build as my opener. I find it lets me take an economic advantage while also sometimes hurting unsafe terrans who don't bunker up. But I can't scout that he is being greedy until I attack with my first warp ins, and even then sometimes I can't actually see that he is being greedy. But if I do see his 3rd CC, how do I play from then on? I have tried heavy 2 base collosus pushes just as they are getting out their first medivacs, but if I push up into their ramp they will just crush me with a superior concave and SCV pull. If I try to expand they should be able to scout it and then just move out when their 1/1, stim, and medivacs all come out and kill it as I will be both behind on tech and upgrades. And even if they don't attack, they are still ahead anyway.
I find that I rarely see terrans play this greedy in pro games, so I just don't know the appropriate way to respond. So any help would be appreciated.
I can supply a replay if requested, however I feel this is more of a "What should I do" thread rather than "What am I doing wrong".
Thanks |
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| Angel_ United States. March 06 2012 23:05. Posts 1616 | Profile Blog # |
Waiting all the way for Colossi is way too much time, imo. It MIGHT work, but realistically you're giving them so much time that the chances of it actually working are slim, because they'll have gotten their economy fully online and be ahead of you. You either need to be greedy as all hell also, all-in them immediately (like, cancelling my nexus and 4-gating you/just start rushing units over however), or you need to tech to something that's going to take advantage of their greediness and punish them, ie, warp prism play or dts. Dts are counter-intuitive because they have three orbitals, but, they still can be good because the terran will already be spread out with not a lot of stuff yet, and most likely figuring that if you're going to attack at all, it'll be at his front where he has bunkers and a few units.
Hope that helps. |
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| mts United States. March 06 2012 23:10. Posts 4 | Profile # |
| Do you think you could post a couple replays just so I can see exactly what's happening? |
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| CatNzHat United States. March 06 2012 23:18. Posts 1293 | Profile # |
replays or it didn't happen
usually protoss can out greed terran on the upgrade front, allocate all chrono to upgrades and probes, and take a quick third, don't keep gateways idle in favor of constant robo production and upgrades (or constant templar production).
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| KroN Germany. March 06 2012 23:27. Posts 437 | Profile # |
Hi,
im a Terran player who has started playing this since a few days, it works great against most Ps i meet. I only play high diamond / lower masters, just so you know. I saw this build/play on Demuslims stream.
- its REALLY greedy, you get minerals extremely fast
- follow up he used was 5 Rax into 4 gas and tech, take early third if possible.
Obviously every fast 1base play kills this, but you cant know if he threw down a 3rd CC or more Rax, so its a gamble most wont take i guess.
You have to be ready for a 7,5-8min marine poke (out of 4-5 rax) but other than that you dont have much to fear. The best response (demuslim said that also) is fast Colossus and a fast 3rd. You will encounter many marines, marauders come later, so the fast colossus should be safe.
If you dont go 1base agression i dont think you should punish it, but get a third aswell. The production after the 5rax with addons is extreme, you have to hit before that or get set up for a good production yourself imo.
Fast Colossus/Robo should also help you to identify what exactly is going on pretty quickly.
Sorry i cant post exact builds since im terran, just wanted to share my view.
Last edit: 2012-03-06 23:27:50 |
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| Westy England. March 06 2012 23:31. Posts 679 | Profile Blog # |
| I have decided what I am doing wrong is choosing between all in, or simply being behind. How I would usually respond would be to get 3 collosus with range and attack while adding on 3-5 extra gateways. I think what I should be doing is not adding on those gateways, and instead getting a third while using the collosus with range to pick at his front. |
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| krylon March 06 2012 23:32. Posts 36 | Profile # |
| Would someone mind posting a direct build order for this greedy terran build? I am having a TON of trouble vs P in macro games lately and this sounds like it could be an answer for me. Last edit: 2012-03-06 23:32:56 |
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| mts United States. March 06 2012 23:35. Posts 4 | Profile # |
| Without seeing the replays, I can't know, but this seems too much of a middle of the road solution. It's more efficient and effective to choose either a big push to punish the greedy play or to get a third of your own. To try and do both splits your resources too much. Last edit: 2012-03-06 23:35:53 |
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| Dark.EX United States. March 06 2012 23:35. Posts 1504 | Profile Blog # |
There is a recent TvP build that forgoes a robo in favor of more units, gateway tech, and economy. I'll look for it now and edit this post with the link. Also,
Would someone mind posting a direct build order for this greedy terran build? I am having a TON of trouble vs P in macro games lately and this sounds like it could be an answer for me.
You can find this build on a certain Day9 daily, pre-400. I think it's the 396th daily or something like that. You can find it on Day9tv.Blip.tv
EDIT: Found it: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=312133
I forgot to say, this guide says a couple things:
A. Hard to execute.
B. Will put you on even ground with a triple orbital build if executed correctly.
C. You must default to MC's 1gate FE linked to in the guide if you scout a number of things, such as him taking gas before expanding.
EDIT: I can't believe I missed this before. It is required to post a replay in [H] threads, always. Every time.Last edit: 2012-03-07 03:22:46 |
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| wheelchairs United States. March 06 2012 23:43. Posts 142 | Profile # |
MKP used the 3cc build alot during MLG last week vs. Protoss, he also went almost undefeated vs protoss. MvP and MMA use this build a lot in the GSL, it is becoming very popular tvp opening. Just posting to let you know there are many many vods out there with this build, so its not as new as you think. Day9 covered Kas's version of the build.
IMO if you are not going to take a quick 3rd yourself as protoss (that would be my personal favored response) you need to do damage early on. The increased mules and minerals will allow Terran build a very fast sizeable army of MM that will be hard to deal with later. |
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| krylon March 07 2012 00:00. Posts 36 | Profile # |
| nevermind, I was confused about your wording. Last edit: 2012-03-07 00:01:27 |
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| DemonDeacon United States. March 07 2012 00:07. Posts 158 | Profile # |
On March 06 2012 23:35 Fencer710 wrote:There is a recent TvP build that forgoes a robo in favor of more units, gateway tech, and economy. I'll look for it now and edit this post with the link. Also,
Show nested quote +Would someone mind posting a direct build order for this greedy terran build? I am having a TON of trouble vs P in macro games lately and this sounds like it could be an answer for me.
You can find this build on a certain Day9 daily, pre-400. I think it's the 396th daily or something like that. You can find it on Day9tv.Blip.tv EDIT: Found it: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=312133I forgot to say, this guide says a couple things: A. Hard to execute. B. Will put you on even ground with a triple orbital build if executed correctly. C. You must default to MC's 1gate FE linked to in the guide if you scout a number of things, such as him taking gas before expanding.
this is an excellent walk-through every protoss should read imo
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| TG Manny United States. March 07 2012 00:14. Posts 324 | Profile Blog # |
From a Terran perspective, you can easily be just as greedy and easily delay tech for gateway upgrades and a fast 3rd+gas.
I don't know what the "feast" build is, but it is scary when the protoss forgoes tech to power his econ and gateway army heavily. One of the best first gas investments is your upgrades in all MUs, and so a fast first upgrade means you're ahead even if you don't chrono it out and begin the next immediately. It also lends itself well to a twilight tech transition (chargelot archon into storm is hard to attack into). The problems with it is you may be playing "in the dark" (late robo for obs/low collosus count which may have been blind countered by vikings) and/or T allins before your investments really kick in.
When you're playing against a fast 3 OC Terran, he will not do the midgame timing attack until much later (relatively) because of delayed tech by delaying gas so long and going for 1/1. No Terran wants to push before medivacs into post 7 minute Protoss army. You should have your own 1/1 with some chargelots and archons with storm on the way and plenty of gates to reinforce out of. This stresses the power of the Protoss late-game relative to the Terran and gives you a chance to flat out win if his timing does not do much damage but he loses a significant amount of army.
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| | Singularity is at hand... |
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| Rotcod United Kingdom. March 07 2012 00:31. Posts 71 | Profile # |
If your playing safe and getting three gate robo your pretty far behind, best response I've found once you spot this kind of play with your observer is fast collosi either to defend an expansion or for and all in.
They wont have the vikings/medivacs to deal with collosi efficiently due to the ultra late starport. |
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| xtruder Afghanistan. March 07 2012 00:51. Posts 131 | Profile # |
3 gate robo is actually pretty good against a super greedy ultra-fast expand. What you do is wait for 3-4 immortals and attack. You focus immortals on bunkers and use generous guardian shields and forcefields. He won't have much of an army to defend since he double expo'd.
Too many people are ashamed of going "all-in". I think it's more shameful to allow your opponent to play greedy and thinking you're a fool. |
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| Rotcod United Kingdom. March 07 2012 00:54. Posts 71 | Profile # |
On March 07 2012 00:51 xtruder wrote:
3 gate robo is actually pretty good against a super greedy ultra-fast expand. What you do is wait for 3-4 immortals and attack. You focus immortals on bunkers and use generous guardian shields and forcefields. He won't have much of an army to defend since he double expo'd.
Too many people are ashamed of going "all-in". I think it's more shameful to allow your opponent to play greedy and thinking you're a fool.
He will have more units than a normal terran build at the immortal timming, the mules/base/upgrades will have kicked in by then |
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| GosuVice United States. March 07 2012 01:00. Posts 1 | Profile # |
In PVT I tend to open with Naniwa's nexus first expand explained here: http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-420-p1-naniwa-s-pvt-opening-5961533. This allows me to both be greedy myself, deal with early pressure, and take a fast third while teching to colossi. This early pressure against greedy Terrans often times will win the game out right. If you do not win, you will do economic damage and take a fast third. You'll be going into the mid/late game at least on even footing if not ahead. 3 notes on your early pressure:
(1) It is pressure and not an all in, so don't over commit.
(2) sentrys in back, guardian shield zealots in front, micro back hurt sentrys/ stalkers. Be liberal with your force fields you should have 6 sentries and ample energy.
(3) Macro at home. |
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| Sated England. March 07 2012 01:20. Posts 3429 | Profile Blog # |
If I scout any sort of gasless build from a Terran then I do a one-base 5gate all-in. I personally do it out of a 2gate opening, but if you were going for a 1gate opening then you'd probably still be able to do it - just spend all your remaining chronoboosts on Warpgate Research and throw down additional Gateways instead of throwing down an expansion. In my experience, it works more than it fails, even if it isn't completely fool-proof.
To be honest, the only reason Terrans (and Zergs) think they can get away with such greedy builds is because people are so apologetic about cheesing (or abhor it to the point where they think it is wrong to cheese). Play to win, not to meet some sort of macro-standard.Last edit: 2012-03-07 01:23:08 |
| | EU Masters Protoss Playing For Team SC2Improve ~ www.sc2improve.org ~ "I'd rather play a strategy that is worse but that I feel confident in than play the better strategy not really feeling it and not being 100% behind it" - Grubby | |
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| KroN Germany. March 07 2012 01:25. Posts 437 | Profile # |
This is the game i meant:
http://www.twitch.tv/demuslim/b/310636555
00:42:00
there you could see a build like that from T point of view for timings or smth. its a really good opening if no 1base play is comming. |
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| ZeroTalent United States. March 07 2012 01:30. Posts 297 | Profile # |
On March 07 2012 00:54 Rotcod wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 00:51 xtruder wrote:
3 gate robo is actually pretty good against a super greedy ultra-fast expand. What you do is wait for 3-4 immortals and attack. You focus immortals on bunkers and use generous guardian shields and forcefields. He won't have much of an army to defend since he double expo'd.
Too many people are ashamed of going "all-in". I think it's more shameful to allow your opponent to play greedy and thinking you're a fool.
He will have more units than a normal terran build at the immortal timming, the mules/base/upgrades will have kicked in by then
?! It takes ~5 minutes from the start of build time for an expansion to kick in unless you cut workers. The third CC starts at about 5:30, so any sort of all-in before 10:30 gives the army advantage to protoss. Also to go Barracks/CC/CC you can't start mining gas before 6:00, so you can all-in before stim hits.
What about chronoing out +1 armor and doing some sort of 6gate or 7gate push with a bunch of sentries? You should have the superior army at that point, and between guardian shield and FFs you should be able to bust the bunkers. If the attack fails you have a reasonable transition to Zealot/Archon/HT, or you can use DTs to stall while you set up your economy & more upgreades. |
| | Can we get an official definition of "all-in"? Please? |
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