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 Josh_rakoons United Kingdom. March 23 2012 05:47. Posts 1157 | Profile # |
| The best way to get out of bronze is play. |
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| Monkeyballs25 March 23 2012 05:54. Posts 527 | Profile # |
Phasen PvT, part two.
His first base may be gone, but his 2nd lives on. After finishing up zealot leg speed, he of course proceeds to the next logical step, a new cyber core. A scouting party of marines are greeted with the horror of 5 colossi and a crapton of angry speedy zealots. Bennett engages with his main force, sadly discovering that PDDs do not stop colossus lasers(I didn't know this either!) Luckily his last line of defence holds, including an impressive missile turret that nearly solokills a colossus. Now its once again two base vs two base, 25 workers each, supply 54P 67 T at 24:53.
The counterattack from Bennett is somewhat ineffective. Ever watch 2 marauders and 2 medivacs dueling two zealots? Its very slow!
Bennett's natural is mined out, so he takes the 9 o clock base. Phasen has the advantage of a fresh main, but takes a 3rd the 2 o clock spawnpoint base anyway.
Phasen's next attack doesn't go nearly as well, despite the novel idea of adding hallu colossi. Shoulda just brought more real ones mate. Oh and more zealots. Speaking of which, he sends in 4 zealots via proxy pylon to the 9 oclock base and thoroughly wrecks it. Bennett doom drops Phasen's main again, who prompty starts remaking everything at the 2 o clock soon to be new main base. The zealots are eventually driven away from 9 oclock base, and a mule drop stops the OC from burning down. Scratch that, he dropped a mule, but forgot to order it to repair 
Phasen tries to start again, but he's just too far behind. Not even chargealots and storm are able to stop the inevitable defeat, and he is forced to gg.
So um yeah, that's all of the replays. Ranging from "seriously dude what the hell are you doing" to "hmm that's kiiiiiindof a standard build except for these odd mistakes". I think maybe just Nerfed played somewhat standard. |
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| TacticalBadger March 23 2012 05:59. Posts 18 | Profile # |
On March 23 2012 05:26 Gheed wrote:
No shit, really? The worst strategy conceivable doesn't work against anyone who isn't in the worst league? Man, you could have saved me a lot of writing if you had just PMed me a few months ago. It all makes sense now!
Hey dude, I'm not the one running a blog about how worker rushing works on "bronzers" "bronzies". If worker rushing worked on"bronzers" "bronzies" and not on a "certain percentage of bronzers bronzies who are particularly terrible and don't know how to counter it" then you'd be somewhere near the top, because you'd only be losing to silver level players. Pretty logical, ain't it?
(Not to mention the fact that you are in the bottom of bronze MMR-wise, given that there are like 5 people with 100+ wins in that division)Last edit: 2012-03-23 06:10:12 |
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| Monkeyballs25 March 23 2012 06:01. Posts 527 | Profile # |
On March 23 2012 05:32 milodon wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 05:14 Monkeyballs25 wrote:
KJS TvT(sigh...)
Does a 3rax build but takes 2gas so floats near 400 of it by 7:00. Still has 35 supply to Bennett's 27, and 22 workers to his 19. Tho in fairness Bennett has better tech and a 2nd OC floating to the natural. KJS pushes out and denies the expo, and contains it for a while, while getting his own expo up. Then keeps a solid 20-30 food lead, denies Bennett's third, and catches his army in transit and unsieged, wiping it out and ending the game. Again this guy looked pretty good compared to the rest, aside from the unneeded 2nd gas which would have let him expand sooner. Bennett's big mistake was letting himself get contained for too long and thus falling behind on econ, when he easily had enough marines to stomp KJS's army.
Ok, Im going to keep with the sincerity, to let you all in into the secrets of a bronze mind: I never noticed that it was a contain (outside the natural). Really. For some reason I was sure he had turned back with his army; thats why he caught me on move comand. For some time I only did one rax expand; I have some troubles especially against terran (I lost to tank pushes like the one Nerfed did), so Im trying to change it to a 1-1-1 (I only do it against terran). Im very sloopy with it, I try to harass first with only one reaper (mostly for scout) and then cloaked banshees. But, like you said... sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't... I have a very hard time macroing while Im trying to harass. And reading your comments, it seems that I always miss SCVs really early; I think there isn`t a single time Im ahead in the worker count, is there? I guess Im not seeing the light at the end of the tunel, yet...
Well actually I was referring to you not putting your natural CC back to work for quite a while, where you basically gave up your economic lead. And yes, in most games you seem to be missing workers if you're consistently behind your Terran opponents. Protoss and Zerg will generally be ahead due to chronoboost and larva, and them not needing to halt worker production for the Orbital upgrade.
I can't really give you much good advice. Atm I'm just going mass marine every single game, and giving up TvT as a buildorder loss. Luckily tho I'm in silver, where Terran are extremely rare.
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| noD March 23 2012 06:05. Posts 2122 | Profile Blog # |
On March 23 2012 04:51 milodon wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 04:40 Monkeyballs25 wrote:
More milodon games
Roldash TvT. Ok this guy definitely doesn't know what he's doing. 2nd depot at like 15 or something, and not part of a walloff. No OC when rax is done. So he's got 17 SCVs to bennett's 15 at 7:00, and only 25 food to 20. And he builds a hidden expo plus a sensor tower to give it away, and goes mass reaper well into the midgame. Bizzare. And he didn't gg!
Emotang TvT(good lord there's a lot of Terran in bronze). Extremely poor macro from Emotang, has 1k minerals at 6:22. Still has a food lead at 33 to 25 tho, and 25 SCVs to 17. Randomly walks half a dozen marines into Bennett's bunker+tank line. Queues 5 hellions on a factory with no addon. Queues up all the junk upgrades from the engi bay. Didn't know about medivac drops. So mark one down for the clueless bucket!
OMG this things sound even worse when somebody else describes it. Im seriously considering quitting this thing, Im too bad.
Don't quit
But for god's sake switch race
There is no coincidence of terran being dominant only on bronze ... |
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| milodon Chile. March 23 2012 06:05. Posts 42 | Profile # |
On March 23 2012 05:54 Monkeyballs25 wrote:
Phasen PvT, part two.
His first base may be gone, but his 2nd lives on. After finishing up zealot leg speed, he of course proceeds to the next logical step, a new cyber core. A scouting party of marines are greeted with the horror of 5 colossi and a crapton of angry speedy zealots. Bennett engages with his main force, sadly discovering that PDDs do not stop colossus lasers(I didn't know this either!)
Haha, actually i did know. I was trying to trow turrets (I dont know the hotkey and, apparently, I dont know too well how the icon looks like).
Well, I think that sums it up... thats bronze. Allthough I have the subjective impression that there were really more weird games than usual... I can play something that looks "standard-like" if the other player is playing pasive or playing standard too, but whit early agression or whenever something weird happens, I inmediatly enter into panic mode and mess all up.
Well, I hope to advance some day. Do you have any conclussion after this trip to hell? |
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| Gheed United States. March 23 2012 06:06. Posts 962 | Profile Blog # |
On March 23 2012 05:59 TacticalBadger wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 05:26 Gheed wrote:
No shit, really? The worst strategy conceivable doesn't work against anyone who isn't in the worst league? Man, you could have saved me a lot of writing if you had just PMed me a few months ago. It all makes sense now!
Hey dude, I'm not the one running a blog about how worker rushing works on "bronzers". If worker rushing worked on "bronzers" and not on a "certain percentage of bronzers who are particularly terrible and don't know how to counter it" then you'd be somewhere near the top, because you'd only be losing to silver level players. Pretty logical, ain't it?
My preferred epithet is "bronzies," not "bronzers."
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| TacticalBadger March 23 2012 06:09. Posts 18 | Profile # |
On March 23 2012 06:06 Gheed wrote:
My preferred epithet is "bronzies," not "bronzers."
Corrected. You're welcome. |
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| Monkeyballs25 March 23 2012 06:12. Posts 527 | Profile # |
On March 23 2012 06:05 milodon wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 05:54 Monkeyballs25 wrote:
Phasen PvT, part two.
His first base may be gone, but his 2nd lives on. After finishing up zealot leg speed, he of course proceeds to the next logical step, a new cyber core. A scouting party of marines are greeted with the horror of 5 colossi and a crapton of angry speedy zealots. Bennett engages with his main force, sadly discovering that PDDs do not stop colossus lasers(I didn't know this either!)
Haha, actually i did know. I was trying to trow turrets (I dont know the hotkey and, apparently, I dont know too well how the icon looks like). Well, I think that sums it up... thats bronze. Allthough I have the subjective impression that there were really more weird games than usual... I can play something that looks "standard-like" if the other player is playing pasive or playing standard too, but whit early agression or whenever something weird happens, I inmediatly enter into panic mode and mess all up. Well, I hope to advance some day. Do you have any conclussion after this trip to hell?
Hmm, conclusions.
1) There's waaaaaaaaaaaaay more Terrans than I expected.
2) TvT is probably the hardest one to win via pure macro, mainly cos of siegetanks and the lack of a simple counter to marine/tank/viking, other than a massive macro advantage. And even then you simply can't rush into a critical mass of siegetanks. Maybe try some ghost nuke or battlecruiser/viking shenanigans to secure the win at that point.
3) I really do think Halby's mineral drill would help you quite a bit. I doubt you'll lose another TvZ with it anyway.
4) Winning in TvT, I dunno. Macro better is easy advice to give, but hard to exectute.
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| Sejanus Lithuania. March 23 2012 06:13. Posts 281 | Profile Blog # |
I have a very hard time macroing while Im trying to harass.
You named it yourself. You know your weakness now you can practice and fix it. Or you can change build / race and forever have the weakness. It is as simple as that 
Macro better is easy advice to give, but hard to exectute.
It is also the most correct advice. The problem is when new players ask for advices they usually really ask for insta-win-just-add-water recipe. Not everyone, not always, but usually. And looking for insta-win recipes is what really prevents them from improving. Last edit: 2012-03-23 06:19:36 |
| | Friends don't let friends massacre civilians |
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| milodon Chile. March 23 2012 06:28. Posts 42 | Profile # |
Thanks for watchingthe replays! My conclusions:
- I think I will stick with 1-1-1 vs terran; I will try hard to keep the macro while harrasing, and I will eat a wasabi roll every time I miss and SCV before 10 min. Seriously, WTF is wrong with me and the worker count??(I hate wasabi)
- I will stick to the 1 rax expand vs protoss and Zerg; the wasabi stuff also applies, and I just will try to outmacro. I will concentrate in that before trying to micro. One thing at the time. Oh, and will eat to wasabi rolls if a wild un-scouted brood lords (or 10) appears.
I have seen tutorials of the mineral drill, but Im not sure... may be as a tool for improving macro? I will try it, but I really want to learn to execute decently a traditional build. For a period of time I started using the Geiko-Build (the marine rush with a supply depot drop that hits with 12 marines at 5:00, I think) and I got more wins than usual against protoss and terran, but it wasnt really that fun. And even with that build (that is suposed to be almost 100% succes in bronze), I managed to loose against zerg due to crappy micro. God, I hate zerglings. |
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| Tobberoth Sweden. March 23 2012 06:34. Posts 4735 | Profile # |
On March 23 2012 06:28 milodon wrote:
Thanks for watchingthe replays! My conclusions:
- I think I will stick with 1-1-1 vs terran; I will try hard to keep the macro while harrasing, and I will eat a wasabi roll every time I miss and SCV before 10 min. Seriously, WTF is wrong with me and the worker count??(I hate wasabi)
- I will stick to the 1 rax expand vs protoss and Zerg; the wasabi stuff also applies, and I just will try to outmacro. I will concentrate in that before trying to micro. One thing at the time. Oh, and will eat to wasabi rolls if a wild un-scouted brood lords (or 10) appears.
I have seen tutorials of the mineral drill, but Im not sure... may be as a tool for improving macro? I will try it, but I really want to learn to execute decently a traditional build. For a period of time I started using the Geiko-Build (the marine rush with a supply depot drop that hits with 12 marines at 5:00, I think) and I got more wins than usual against protoss and terran, but it wasnt really that fun. And even with that build (that is suposed to be almost 100% succes in bronze), I managed to loose against zerg due to crappy micro. God, I hate zerglings.
Thing is though, that 12 marine allin is pretty well known now and extremely easy to defend if you know it's coming... so it's a good thing you didn't like it because when you get out of bronze and silver, it wouldn't work anymore, while a 1/1/1 will work into masters if you're good at executing it. So i'd say you're on the right track. |
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| DrLOAC United States. March 23 2012 12:21. Posts 53 | Profile # |
On March 23 2012 04:57 TacticalBadger wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 04:29 lazyitachi wrote:
If u permabronze u r most likely nowhere near the MMR border.. dont kid yourself.
Your ladder point is a poor indication of ur MMR. That's what the noobs always quote when they say they high bronze.
Just cause you play a lot and lots of points <> you are close to silver MMR.
One should instead look at the opponent league as a better indicator of one's standing.
Ladder points are capped at your current MMR. You can mass games all you want, it won't do you any good, unless you actually improve by playing that much. You need to have silver or near-silver level MMR to be in top bronze, otherwise your ladder score will just stall at some point. For example, our friend Gheed is at a measly 13th position despite having 415 wins (guess worker rushing doesn't get you out of bronze after all) and the division is topped by a guy who has 1/5th of his games and nearly twice his ladder points.
What exactly does this mean? I've been perma bronzed since starting this game back in Jan 2010. I play maybe 4 games a week. However recently I've made a concerted effort to mimize lapses in building SCVs, reducing supply blocks, and increasing scouting. I just made top 8 in my bronze league. I've got 19 wins this season but everyone above me has multiples of that in wins but not that many more points. Does this mean I'm improving? |
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| HexSCII Canada. March 23 2012 12:44. Posts 114 | Profile Blog # |
On March 08 2012 18:31 Palmar wrote:
Which is it? If you're looking to improve, you need to set yourself clear goals and work towards them, and one of those goals should be hitting a certain league. Another one can be to learn to execute to perfection one build order for each matchup. If you're just looking to have fun, truck on!
You cannot improve if you choose to settle, so no, it's not fine to accept that you're just a bronze level player if your goal is to improve.
But you also cannot improve unless you really want to, if you're too busy doing cool stuff and trying to be cute, like I am, you will not improve because you're not putting the effort in.
The way I see it is if you just play alot, you will improve. Even 1 hour per day will get you results. It just depends on what you do. Whether it be laddering or facing AI or replay analysis. Having fun is part of the game. If you aren't having fun,why are you playing?
Even those cute builds have meaning behind them. Personally, I don't like laddering. I prefer to open up an AI game and get my basics down. Something as simple as : playing a game until 8 mins and seeing how many probes you can make while still making buildings.
I think in bronze level games, builds and timing aren't important. Reacting and scouting should be the main focus. I say this because, very few people in bronze can actually pull off the 4 gate that hits right on time. Builds should only be important once you hit gold/plat.
Focus on scouting and reacting and your play will increase within days. And if you scout 14 pool then do something cute like nexus first. The risk is still there, so is the fun yet it is a completely viable reaction. |
| | Nexus first or die trying. partinG/MC/oz/Squirtle/Nani/ HerO |  |
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| WaDaFruCK United States. March 23 2012 13:38. Posts 5 | Profile # |
Hello, upper platinum, lower diamond player here, long time lurker of TL.net
I am willing to help people that are currently bronze with 1 on 1 help, north american server ONLY. I can promise only that I will offer you advice, help your gameplay, play practice matches and all around try to push you to the next level to silver. I don't ask any payment (or donations, or anything at all!)
If you are interested, please PM me, and I will add you to my friends list, next time we are both online, we can see how to get you guys into silver. I honestly believe that I can take any bronze and help them get silver pretty fast (we shall see!).
Please be willing to actually listen/learn if you use this opportunity. |
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| cosimorondo United States. March 23 2012 13:55. Posts 70 | Profile # |
| Did I really just hear Husky say that he's the master race? Is this a reference to his blond hair and blue eyes? |
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| HeXpGaming United States. March 23 2012 17:21. Posts 86 | Profile # |
| I think too many people get wrapped up in the Competitive nature of the game that they forget the sole purpose of gaming IS to have fun. And when people have fun and they may be naturally a bronze or gold or whatever that automatically they are thought of as not dedicated or no good, etc. Its a bad cliche that hits this communities members sometimes and some must realize that everyone is not a 18+ hour player. People do have lives and bills to pay. So if someone is interested in progressing help them, if not and they play for the enjoyment..dont hate - just play and gg! |
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| tshred March 23 2012 17:42. Posts 18 | Profile # |
On March 23 2012 06:28 milodon wrote:
Thanks for watchingthe replays! My conclusions:
- I think I will stick with 1-1-1 vs terran; I will try hard to keep the macro while harrasing, and I will eat a wasabi roll every time I miss and SCV before 10 min. Seriously, WTF is wrong with me and the worker count??(I hate wasabi)
- I will stick to the 1 rax expand vs protoss and Zerg; the wasabi stuff also applies, and I just will try to outmacro. I will concentrate in that before trying to micro. One thing at the time. Oh, and will eat to wasabi rolls if a wild un-scouted brood lords (or 10) appears.
I have seen tutorials of the mineral drill, but Im not sure... may be as a tool for improving macro? I will try it, but I really want to learn to execute decently a traditional build. For a period of time I started using the Geiko-Build (the marine rush with a supply depot drop that hits with 12 marines at 5:00, I think) and I got more wins than usual against protoss and terran, but it wasnt really that fun. And even with that build (that is suposed to be almost 100% succes in bronze), I managed to loose against zerg due to crappy micro. God, I hate zerglings.
Milodon you seem to have the right idea with your builds per matchup but you fail at executing them correctly. Either you forget stuff or not keep your minerals low enough. I think you should stick to simpler 1 base builds like 3 rax for all matchups. Keep doing this one build till you can win at least 70% of your games.
The point of this is not to all in your opponent every game but teach you how to properly execute builds. Bronze level players have very poor execution and generally do not know what a properly executed build is like. After you have learned how to properly execute builds then you may move on to more macro oriented builds. From there you'll be able to learn how to properly execute a macro buildLast edit: 2012-03-23 17:44:03 |
| | Things to work on if you are a noob (in order of importance): macro, army composition, and army positioning |
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| Monkeyballs25 March 23 2012 18:43. Posts 527 | Profile # |
[quote][QUOTE]On March 23 2012 12:44 HexSCII wrote:
[QUOTE]On March 08 2012 18:31 Palmar wrote:
I think in bronze level games, builds and timing aren't important. Reacting and scouting should be the main focus. I say this because, very few people in bronze can actually pull off the 4 gate that hits right on time. Builds should only be important once you hit gold/plat.
[/QUOTE]
[/quote]
If anything I'd say its the complete opposite. Looking at Bennett's opponents, almost all of them had serious but easily fixable flaws in their build orders that were causing them to build up too many minerals or too much gas very early.
And many of them spent way too much of their focus on scouting. Particularly the Protoss microing his observer for almost a minute, and the Zerg microing a bunch of changelings.
Last edit: 2012-03-23 18:43:49 |
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| Crushinator Netherlands. March 23 2012 18:47. Posts 1254 | Profile # |
On March 23 2012 06:28 milodon wrote:
Thanks for watchingthe replays! My conclusions:
- I think I will stick with 1-1-1 vs terran; I will try hard to keep the macro while harrasing, and I will eat a wasabi roll every time I miss and SCV before 10 min. Seriously, WTF is wrong with me and the worker count??(I hate wasabi)
- I will stick to the 1 rax expand vs protoss and Zerg; the wasabi stuff also applies, and I just will try to outmacro. I will concentrate in that before trying to micro. One thing at the time. Oh, and will eat to wasabi rolls if a wild un-scouted brood lords (or 10) appears.
I have seen tutorials of the mineral drill, but Im not sure... may be as a tool for improving macro? I will try it, but I really want to learn to execute decently a traditional build. For a period of time I started using the Geiko-Build (the marine rush with a supply depot drop that hits with 12 marines at 5:00, I think) and I got more wins than usual against protoss and terran, but it wasnt really that fun. And even with that build (that is suposed to be almost 100% succes in bronze), I managed to loose against zerg due to crappy micro. God, I hate zerglings.
You will be eating about 10 wasabi rolls every game I'm afraid. Doesn't seem realistic. Even masters players will miss a worker or 2 before 10 minutes.
I highly recommend you do not try any harrasement whatsoever, you should spend your extremely limited mechanical abilities on macro. You should also limit your scouting to the bare minimum, only use an SCV to check what your opponents' position is. Queue up the SCV that builds your first supply depot to check every position and then return home. Thats all, dont try to keep your SCV in his base. Macro. You may think you are able to do these things at the same time, but you are not, that is why you are in bronze. You should create an army that requires a minimum amount of thought and micro. Pure bio, possibly with a few medivacs is perfect for this.
This should get anyone out of bronze:
- Expand early. Expanding after 2 barracks with reactor and tech lab and 1 gas, works in all matchups, produce only marines untill your expansion has started building. In TvP and TvT you can rally your marines to your natural and make a bunker right after you start building your expansion. In TvZ you should build your expansion in base. Float it to your natural right after it is done and queue up 2 bunkers, move marines down when the bunkers are almost done.
- Pick an attack time and devote all of your APM to creating the largest possible army at that time without cutting SCVs. Somewhere between 10-12 minutes should be good. Practice this in single player, write down the supply count build order in notepad for the first 6 or so minutes, purely to as an excercise, don't try to read it during the game.
- While your army is a-moving towards your opponents base, send an SCV to build a command center at your second natural and queue up as many units and workers as you can.
- When your army is near your opponents base, stim and a-move (press a then click), do the absolute minimum amount of micro and go back to macro.
- If your opponent did not die, you probably have gone up to 1k+ minerals, you are bronze afterall. Get rid of it. Make sure all your production builds have 2 units queued up and use the remaining money to build supply depots and production buildings.
- Do a follow up attack once you have approximately the same amount of units you had in your first attack. And once again queue up an SCV to build a command center at a new base.
P.S. Alternatively you can do a 3-rax all-in every single game. You will be able to find a guide on it on this forum. Practice the build in single player untill you perfect it. This will literally win you 100% of your games untill you reach gold. |
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