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Please have some semblance of an idea of what you're talking about.  BoxedLunch United States. March 16 2012 10:10. Posts 384 | Profile # |
i think the biggest thing i got out of the titan replay was to open standard FFE, confirm no mutas, add a robo and expand. then tech to blink and defend with FF and good micro. it might be really hard to hold using that build on a map like tal'darim or cloud kingdom, though.
honestly i think kingdom is pretty terrible PvZ but thats another discussion |
| | In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice, they are not |
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| Shakattak Canada. March 16 2012 10:22. Posts 941 | Profile Blog # |
On March 16 2012 04:55 kcdc wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 04:44 ShakAttaK wrote:
On March 16 2012 02:32 kcdc wrote:
On March 16 2012 02:03 aebriol wrote:
On March 16 2012 01:53 kcdc wrote:
To the people saying that this Zerg style is weak against 2-base pressure, can you find a replay/VOD where the Zerg (1) has at least 150 supply and roach speed at 11 minutes and (2) engages in an open area, and (3) loses?
People are not saying this zerg style is weak against 2-base pressure. We are saying this zerg style is weak against committed 2 base all in.
That hit, normally, between 8:00 and 10:30 (10:30 is the 3 immortal, 10 sentries, 15 zealots, 2 stalkers - constant stalker reinforcement variety, and the latest to hit). You should win almost all games with those against this style. Especially when the zerg doesn't scout around 7:00 with 2 overlords (only possible way to be able to prepare for the all in builds).
Did I ask for you to say the same thing you said before but sounding more confident or did I ask for evidence?
On March 16 2012 02:10 Fenneth wrote:
On March 16 2012 01:53 kcdc wrote:
To the people saying that this Zerg style is weak against 2-base pressure, can you find a replay/VOD where the Zerg (1) has at least 150 supply and roach speed at 11 minutes and (2) engages in an open area, and (3) loses?
How about a game where the above criteria are met, as well as (4) the Protoss has already taken a third and (5) the Zerg is Stephano himself? http://drop.sc/134585
I'll check it out when I get home. I'm guessing this is a 1SG build that narrowly defends the third with extremely favorable engagements despite an 80 supply deficit.
I am wondering if staying on two base and teching / making units is the best way to go. We all m is the roach build is designed to kill the tosses third so don't take a third before 10 min that's when you die.
The later you take the third, the bigger the food deficit will be when you're defending the third--at least until Z hits the 200 supply cap, at which point you can catch up a bit. The logic with a 7 or 8 minute third is that you'll have a bigger army when Z attacks at 12 minutes. That's the logic anyway. It may turn out that you just can't take a third until you have an army that can defend maxed roaches.
Tht is all true but he is maxed on just roaches he can't do anything else with them after when I do this strat I run into problems with Toss being super defensive it's better to slowly take bases of you take a third too quick there is no way to stop them |
| | Team Overklocked Gaming ! That man is the noblest creature may be inferred from the fact that no other creature has contested this claim. - G.C. Lichtenberg |
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| StarBrift Sweden. March 16 2012 10:24. Posts 1674 | Profile # |
Not sure if this is applicable to beating the specific style that stephano plays but I've been running into a SG opening into 5-6 gate mothership into third and have had a really hard time stopping the third of the protoss. The problem is that they can pressure and force units and 3-4 overseers. In the first attack you're not going to have corruptors. Even if you do have corruptors you have only 4 gas. So you need to take a pretty fast 6 gas. This fast 6 gas really limits the ammount of ground units zerg can get out and severely delays the 4th that is super key in stephanos build. He makes it as a far away macro hatch and then saturates it and adds gas on it when he's dealt enough damage. But you can not take that 4th after 6 gas while making units until quite a lot later. Probably atleast a minute later in general. I don't really feel like I can engage the mothership unless I have atleast 8 corruptors and more coming.
Good vortexes can really mess up your flanks and pick off those expensive corruptors. Most of the time I have to take a battle before corruptors though and the protoss allways trades super effectively
I guess the downside would be that you're going to have less probes because of the mothership taking up probe building time. But you're going to have a decent count up since you go into it after a regular stargate opening. |
| | Jaedong asks you 'how do you practice and what mentality do you keep during your games?' Flash: Well, I just practice really hard. And during games I think "LOL U CANT BEAT ME" keke |
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| Chelch United Kingdom. March 16 2012 10:26. Posts 154 | Profile # |
| Sorry if this question has already been asked, but what do you guys think Titan would do vs fast mutalisks on 3 bases? It seems like his build goes for really fast immortals, and you don't have much scouting information. How does he know what Stephano is going to do? (spam roaches) Last edit: 2012-03-16 10:28:43 |
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| Fenneth Australia. March 16 2012 10:29. Posts 321 | Profile Blog # |
On March 16 2012 10:26 Chelch wrote:
Sorry if this question has already been asked, but what do you guys think Titan would do vs fast mutalisks on 3 bases? It seems like his build goes for really fast immortals, and you don't have much scouting information. How does he know what Stephano is going to do? (spam roaches)
He spams a bunch of stalkers. |
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| Chelch United Kingdom. March 16 2012 10:31. Posts 154 | Profile # |
On March 16 2012 10:29 Fenneth wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 10:26 Chelch wrote:
Sorry if this question has already been asked, but what do you guys think Titan would do vs fast mutalisks on 3 bases? It seems like his build goes for really fast immortals, and you don't have much scouting information. How does he know what Stephano is going to do? (spam roaches)
He spams a bunch of stalkers.
Right, but from what I see, he only sees whats going on at 10:30 (that is, he sees a roach). Isn't that a bit late? |
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| -Exalt- United States. March 16 2012 10:39. Posts 966 | Profile Blog # |
I think the answer is pretty simple, if the map allows it, you need a fast third and a ton of immortals, blink stalkers (not zealots like you say in the OP), and some sentries.
I've been experimenting with a fake zealot pressure at around 7:50 only warping in 3-4 zealots so he has to make a bunch of lings and can't spam drones (you don't want to make more than 4 zealots, any more delays your third base which you want around 8:30). Meanwhile i deny scouting, get a third + robo and a twilight and chrono out attack upgrades. You need to make sure your infrastructure get's up as well to actually support your third base (a lot of gates).
If you have 4+ immortals and forcefields, it's ok if the zerg is 70 supply ahead in roaches as long as you can make 3/4 of them not attack while your immortals kill the other 1/4. So if the map allows for this (ie the third isn't ridiculously hard to take and you can't be easily flanked while defending it) then I think this will become pretty standard PvZ (fast third, robo twilight).
I have to emphasize, on a map like Korhal compound where the zerg can attack your army from two sides with mass roach while you defend your third, then you will probably just die. that being said I've been doing a ton of 8 gates cause it can crush a fast third with proper timing + nexus first until we get new maps that are better for fast-third play ;p |
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| Treehead March 16 2012 10:45. Posts 999 | Profile Blog # |
On March 16 2012 07:06 kcdc wrote:The Titan replay is great. That's exactly the sort of thing I opened this thread to find.
Wow, yeah - that was amazing. I'm gonna guess that's about as early as a protoss can expand, but still. Good stuff!
In depth, his forcefield placement wasn't super relevant, so it isn't like he had amazing micro or anything (though his blink stalker micro was quite commendable). He just took a third as soon as he had 4 gates and a robo building, and then made a ton of units. I wonder at how feasible this sort of build is against infestors, though. He never really scouted to see tech paths... I suppose Immortals aren't particularly weak to fungal (I mean, they're armored, but they're also really beefy). |
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| Forbidden17 March 16 2012 11:15. Posts 664 | Profile # |
On March 16 2012 10:45 Treehead wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 07:06 kcdc wrote:
On March 16 2012 06:32 Fenneth wrote:
On March 16 2012 06:26 Crying wrote:
Im quite possitive that without gimmicky play u cant beat Stephano.
I'll post this replay again http://drop.sc/134585and this replay pack from Stephano a couple of months ago http://www.mediafire.com/?t72cziiga22oyo2in which he loses 5 straight games to Squirtle, who uses a variety of non-gimmicky strats.
The Titan replay is great. That's exactly the sort of thing I opened this thread to find.
Wow, yeah - that was amazing. I'm gonna guess that's about as early as a protoss can expand, but still. Good stuff! In depth, his forcefield placement wasn't super relevant, so it isn't like he had amazing micro or anything (though his blink stalker micro was quite commendable). He just took a third as soon as he had 4 gates and a robo building, and then made a ton of units. I wonder at how feasible this sort of build is against infestors, though. He never really scouted to see tech paths... I suppose Immortals aren't particularly weak to fungal (I mean, they're armored, but they're also really beefy).
I saw minigun open this way vs fast 3hatch awhile ago, I was really surprised how quickly he got his 3rd and he made zero attempt at harassing the zerg for the entire early-mid game.
Is this really what toss is gonna become T_T turtle like crazy into deathball... I already do that for PvT >< |
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| Treehead March 16 2012 11:26. Posts 999 | Profile Blog # |
| I just played a game like the titan replay. My timing was terrible and my micro was worse - (so I won't embarass myself by uploading the rep) but I just wanted to say that it feels so weird having a third up before 10 minutes. But even with terrible macro, you'll be saturated on 2 bases when it finishes, so you can totally use it. I'm actually really pumped about this build. Now to play it decently instead of just guestimating everything. |
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| skatbone United States. March 16 2012 11:38. Posts 926 | Profile # |
On March 16 2012 11:26 Treehead wrote:
I just played a game like the titan replay. My timing was terrible and my micro was worse - (so I won't embarass myself by uploading the rep) but I just wanted to say that it feels so weird having a third up before 10 minutes. But even with terrible macro, you'll be saturated on 2 bases when it finishes, so you can totally use it. I'm actually really pumped about this build. Now to play it decently instead of just guestimating everything.
Yea. I'm only diamond but I always use fast 3rd builds. I haven't played against anyone nearly as good as Stephano, but at diamond, I can usually hold a committed roach attack with immortal-sentry-stalker. As others have noted, though, the tricky part is scouting the commitment to mass roach. If he is just making a handful of roaches and then teching muta, I find that the resources sunk into 2+ immortals works against my stalker count.
I haven't tried Plexa's Mothership-into-3rd build, but I would assume that could deal with muta a bit better due to a higher initial stalker count.
tl;dr I want to see more experimentation with fast thirds from the higher ranked players. In diamond, I get into lategame PvZ consistently with an FFE-robo-2 or 3 more gates-fake WP harass-expo. I drop the 3rd as my WP moves across the map. |
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| W2 United States. March 16 2012 11:41. Posts 1087 | Profile Blog # |
Stargate is the only easy option I can think of that will keep you alive against relentless roach pressure. If you want to stay ground only, common mistake is to rely on pure blink stalkers. You need to add more sentries as they run out of energy, and also keep adding immortals. Also, HT tech is the worst s*** against roaches. Roaches are so tanky you get 0 kills per storm, and he keeps dancing until you run out of energy. Go Colossus and blink (for the eventual mutas). Survive the onslaught and the game will start to open up; take it from there.
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| BoxedLunch United States. March 16 2012 11:53. Posts 384 | Profile # |
On March 16 2012 11:41 W2 wrote:
Stargate is the only easy option I can think of that will keep you alive against relentless roach pressure. If you want to stay ground only, common mistake is to rely on pure blink stalkers. You need to add more sentries as they run out of energy, and also keep adding immortals. Also, HT tech is the worst s*** against roaches. Roaches are so tanky you get 0 kills per storm, and he keeps dancing until you run out of energy. Go Colossus and blink (for the eventual mutas). Survive the onslaught and the game will start to open up; take it from there.
the problem with relying on void rays to survive roach pressure is that you can end up in a mondragon/zeerax sort of position where you have a few voids, a small ground army, and the roaches just roll your army while the voids try to clean up, but they kill roaches so slowly that you just die to rallied roaches |
| | In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice, they are not |
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| VictorJones United States. March 16 2012 11:58. Posts 235 | Profile Blog # |
If you're talking about a strategic shift get a stargate after your FFE instead of going robo. This will become standard as it makes 200/200 roach pushes a lot less efficient. I like the Genius build  |
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| K3Nyy United States. March 16 2012 12:01. Posts 1715 | Profile # |
On March 16 2012 11:58 VictorJones wrote:If you're talking about a strategic shift get a stargate after your FFE instead of going robo. This will become standard as it makes 200/200 roach pushes a lot less efficient. I like the Genius build
You realize this was like standard for PvZs since the beginning right? x_x;; |
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| sgtjimmy Canada. March 16 2012 12:01. Posts 105 | Profile # |
| This is from a zerg POV but, the common denominator seems to be the FFE. Maybe, just maybe, go into some sort of gate way expand? This is all happening with because of the 3 hatch, zergs can't take 3 bases and be safe. You lose eco, but he does too. In my opinion, it'd be worth it. |
| | You only get what you deserve, give 100% |
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| Drowsy United States. March 16 2012 12:28. Posts 4845 | Profile Blog # |
On March 16 2012 12:01 sgtjimmy wrote:
This is from a zerg POV but, the common denominator seems to be the FFE. Maybe, just maybe, go into some sort of gate way expand? This is all happening with because of the 3 hatch, zergs can't take 3 bases and be safe. You lose eco, but he does too. In my opinion, it'd be worth it.
every zerg thinks protosses should gateway expand lol... it just gets too dismantled by roach/ling aggression it's pretty much impossible to pull off now without spending all sorts of cash on various defensive things. Last edit: 2012-03-16 12:29:08 |
| | Our Protoss, Who art in Aiur HongUn be Thy name; Thy stalker come, Thy will be blunk, on ladder as it is in Micro Tourny. Give us this win in our daily ladder, and forgive us our cheeses, As we forgive those who play zerg against us. |
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| Host- New Zealand. March 16 2012 12:34. Posts 458 | Profile # |
On March 16 2012 12:28 Drowsy wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 12:01 sgtjimmy wrote:
This is from a zerg POV but, the common denominator seems to be the FFE. Maybe, just maybe, go into some sort of gate way expand? This is all happening with because of the 3 hatch, zergs can't take 3 bases and be safe. You lose eco, but he does too. In my opinion, it'd be worth it.
every zerg thinks protosses should gateway expand lol... it just gets too dismantled by roach/ling aggression it's pretty much impossible to pull off now without spending all sorts of cash on various defensive things.
I disagree, I feel so confident in my ability to play against an FFE, but against gateway expands I'm lost. There are sooo many all ins you can do off a gateway expand. Even if it's not all in, there are still some really strong builds, that allow an expo, ie. 3gate robo -> immortal sentry push, and dt expands. You can't ever account for everything, so you have to play defensive. Whenever I try roach ling aggression it gets shut down by good force fields. |
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| sgtjimmy Canada. March 16 2012 12:45. Posts 105 | Profile # |
On March 16 2012 12:28 Drowsy wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 12:01 sgtjimmy wrote:
This is from a zerg POV but, the common denominator seems to be the FFE. Maybe, just maybe, go into some sort of gate way expand? This is all happening with because of the 3 hatch, zergs can't take 3 bases and be safe. You lose eco, but he does too. In my opinion, it'd be worth it.
every zerg thinks protosses should gateway expand lol... it just gets too dismantled by roach/ling aggression it's pretty much impossible to pull off now without spending all sorts of cash on various defensive things.
Everything in this game (macro wise) scales. When a toss figures a good macro build, you better believe that zergs are gonna find one that's just as good, maybe even better. So the way I see it, just go back to gateway expands, the zerg is just forced to not take a third. Also, last time i checked roach/ling all ins vs gateway expands can easily be held with diamond level force fields. |
| | You only get what you deserve, give 100% |
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| sofakng March 16 2012 12:47. Posts 100 | Profile # |
Honestly all I've really been doing lately is fast third off of a void ray and a couple of units. Or a third off of like a zealot and 2 stalker pressure into blink or something like that. All in all it involes super fast thirds, fast blink while taking said third along with immortal production and double upgrades when possible. The super heavy immortal blink style when played perfectly is great vs anything zerg can really throw at you imo. It allows for a transition into either templar or collosus. The only problem is if you arent active with scouting.
All in all if everything else fails just go double stargate into carriers super fun build ^^.
Before you say I noob for using carriers I've beaten quite a few pros with them and with the other style as well. |
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