Please have some semblance of an idea of what you're talking about.
| scsnow Slovenia. March 24 2012 08:11. Posts 413 | Profile # |
| naniwa went into some 2zealot 1stalker pressure out of 1gate expand into... drg mass roaches... with burrow waiting for naniwa at third, at which point he lost all army into standard stream of roaches into natural while taking 4th. |
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| Eiaco March 24 2012 08:12. Posts 170 | Profile # |
On March 24 2012 07:38 scsnow wrote:
naniwa vs drg coming up next @MLG
if nani cant do it, noone can.
Game 1 - Naniwa demonstrates why Gateway expand is a terrible idea. DRG crushes a pathetic Stalker/Sentry combination with half of his army whilst the other half breaks down the front door.
Game 2 - Naniwa Gateway expands again. He is pinned in his base trying to deflect zerglings whilst DRG gets to do whatever the hell he wants. He decides to build roaches and drop banelings on very fragile protoss army. Naniwa survives using perfect forcefields but takes a loss of 14 probes. DRG then expands whilst teching to mutas whilst Naniwa is trying to rebuild and still trapped on 2 bases. Naniwa then perfectly demontates how 1 misclick loses you the game vs zerg as his stalkers get hit by banelings. GGLast edit: 2012-03-24 08:31:13 |
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| eugalp United States. March 24 2012 08:17. Posts 203 | Profile # |
On March 24 2012 08:09 freetgy wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 07:38 scsnow wrote:
naniwa vs drg coming up next @MLG
if nani cant do it, noone can.
i guess gateway expand isn't the solution 8x
Any gateway first opening is really bad vs hatch first. |
| | "More GG more skill" - White-Ra |
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| AnalThermometer Vatican City State. March 24 2012 08:18. Posts 333 | Profile # |
| Tbh I wouldn't judge gateway expand on that game, you have to be much more aggressive than that for it to work to force larva on units. If you are aggressive you can hopefully stunt Zerg's econ and he won't be able to reach close to that number of roaches. |
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| chestnutcc India. March 24 2012 08:22. Posts 429 | Profile # |
| How more aggressive could he have been, given that DRG had 20+ lings out? |
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| aZealot New Zealand. March 24 2012 08:32. Posts 1392 | Profile # |
Don't derail the thread, chaps. (It's interesting though that even the FFE or die trying player is exploring other options.)
Anyway, back to the intricacies of FFE builds.Last edit: 2012-03-24 08:33:39 |
| | "Consider fully, act decisively" - Jigoro Kano |
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| da_head Canada. March 24 2012 08:34. Posts 3127 | Profile Blog # |
| im really surprised naniwa attempted to gateway expand. He was quite adamant in the past that ffe was the superior build. Perhaps he's getting desperate (like the rest of us T_T). |
| | When they see MC Probe, all the ladies disrobe. |
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| Eiaco March 24 2012 08:35. Posts 170 | Profile # |
On March 24 2012 08:32 aZealot wrote:
Don't derail the thread, chaps. (It's interesting though that even the FFE or die trying player is exploring other options.)
Anyway, back to the intricacies of FFE builds.
Yeh, he explored the Gateway/Expand whilst dying slowly option.Last edit: 2012-03-24 08:36:47 |
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| scsnow Slovenia. March 24 2012 08:36. Posts 413 | Profile # |
On March 24 2012 08:34 da_head wrote:
im really surprised naniwa attempted to gateway expand. He was quite adamant in the past that ffe was the superior build. Perhaps he's getting desperate (like the rest of us T_T).
my thought exactly.
also hero lost today pretty hard... he was trying the phoenix upgrade after leenock switched from roaches to mutas, but then he switched back to streams of roaches and more expansions.
so sad. |
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| Yuffie March 24 2012 08:42. Posts 130 | Profile # |
@ kcdc , 2 zealots arrive even before 3. hatch is finished, there is no way a queen would defend here. ofc i am talking about MY way to play it.. to waiting for 3 zealots like whitra does seems to be the "mistake". i usually force 8 + zerglings with that push and kill more than half the HP. ( sometimes immortal drop just finishes it ) mb i should provide some replay so you can analyze how much sense/damage it does.
cheers
replays: http://www.mediafire.com/?h8kr6r5lir827m8 |
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| da_head Canada. March 24 2012 08:46. Posts 3127 | Profile Blog # |
i honestly think the only thing left for us to try is gateway gasless expand, but even that is extremely flimsy to all ins and requires impeccable scouting from the toss, which is luck based. I think we either need to go back to maps where the third is blocked (though wont help too much) or a toss buff.
But implementing a toss buff will be extremely tricky.. here are a few approaches:
buff gateway units-> big nono. could make 4 gate imba, and drastically effects all matchups
buff cannons-> could make cannon rushing a little hard to stop, but has interesting implications. makes holding your third easier and possibly open up ffe in pvp and pvt?
buff immortals-> a little iffy, as it could drastically alter other matchups, not a good idea
buff wp-> eh, it got the buff it needed, cant really see what else it needs
buff voidrays-> vrays used to be awesome. now they almost lose to a tier 1, 150 mineral unit. make sense. i think a slight buff could really help out here.
buff carriers-> mid game is the issue but carriers do need a buff. interceptors definitely need more armor. and let us micro the fuckin things.
buff stalker dmg upgrades?-> i honestly think this is the best improvement. i mean cmon ffs, stalkers only get +1 per upgrade while marauders and roaches both get +2. Stalkers are the shittiest out of the 3 and yet costs the most. If stalkers gets +2, then +2 stalkers with blink could be extremely potent and wouldnt be op i think. Obviously could be adjusted for balance (etc make first level give only +1)
i know a few people might think it's a little too early to call imba, but i honestly think we've exchausted almost all of our current strategies. We either need a map pool or unit change. |
| | When they see MC Probe, all the ladies disrobe. |
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| RaNgeD United States. March 24 2012 08:57. Posts 654 | Profile Blog # |
Alright so I took some of your advice kcdc, and I had a bit of insight of my own and this is the build that I came up with. It seems quite safe and I like the speed of the 3rd base (7:45~ish) In this replay the only mistake I saw was the fact that I didn't add my twilight on time, so my +2 is just a little late. Let me know what you think, and also if there are some ways to refine the build even more.
Note: I like to refine my builds in single player, so this isn't against anyone, but still, it's pretty realistic of how my game would look if the zerg takes 3 hatch.
http://drop.sc/140884 |
| | Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance. 1 Corinthians 13:7 |
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| Eiaco March 24 2012 08:57. Posts 170 | Profile # |
On March 24 2012 08:46 da_head wrote:
i honestly think the only thing left for us to try is gateway gasless expand, but even that is extremely flimsy to all ins and requires impeccable scouting from the toss, which is luck based. I think we either need to go back to maps where the third is blocked (though wont help too much) or a toss buff.
But implementing a toss buff will be extremely tricky.. here are a few approaches:
buff gateway units-> big nono. could make 4 gate imba, and drastically effects all matchups
buff cannons-> could make cannon rushing a little hard to stop, but has interesting implications. makes holding your third easier and possibly open up ffe in pvp and pvt?
buff immortals-> a little iffy, as it could drastically alter other matchups, not a good idea
buff wp-> eh, it got the buff it needed, cant really see what else it needs
buff voidrays-> vrays used to be awesome. now they almost lose to a tier 1, 150 mineral unit. make sense. i think a slight buff could really help out here.
buff carriers-> mid game is the issue but carriers do need a buff. interceptors definitely need more armor. and let us micro the fuckin things.
buff stalker dmg upgrades?-> i honestly think this is the best improvement. i mean cmon ffs, stalkers only get +1 per upgrade while marauders and roaches both get +2. Stalkers are the shittiest out of the 3 and yet costs the most. If stalkers gets +2, then +2 stalkers with blink could be extremely potent and wouldnt be op i think. Obviously could be adjusted for balance (etc make first level give only +1)
i know a few people might think it's a little too early to call imba, but i honestly think we've exchausted almost all of our current strategies. We either need a map pool or unit change.
In my opinion, changing a Protoss unit or structure will make no difference. The problem in PvZ is game design in which Protoss is constantly behind economically with zero map control and slow units whilst the zerg has all map control, a superior economy, fast units that always prevent a 3rd from being taken and backstab as soon as protoss moves out. On top of all that, Zerg has a late game unit combination which is literally unbeatable unless it gets hit by a gimmicky archon toilet (which means the zerg hasn't spread his units out properly).
Note - I would never usually call anything unbeatable, but a combination that completely immobilizes the other guys army whilst outranging him by 3-4 and spewing free units whith high DPS (infested terrans) seems pretty unbeatable to me.
PvZ seems Zergs to lose at the minute and protoss is almost relient on his opponent making a mistake to have a chance. |
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| chestnutcc India. March 24 2012 09:14. Posts 429 | Profile # |
Note - I would never usually call anything unbeatable, but a combination that completely immobilizes the other guys army whilst outranging him by 3-4 and spewing free units whith high DPS (infested terrans) seems pretty unbeatable to me.
You forgot broodlings, which are completely free. In other news, roaches running over every toss at MLG.
PS: Not to derail the thread with the imba whine, but why are stalkers more expensive than their counterparts which thrash the living day lights out of them.
PPS: Though imo the tosses at MLG are playing v strangely so far.Last edit: 2012-03-24 09:16:02 |
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| aZealot New Zealand. March 24 2012 09:17. Posts 1392 | Profile # |
On March 24 2012 08:35 Eiaco wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 08:32 aZealot wrote:
Don't derail the thread, chaps. (It's interesting though that even the FFE or die trying player is exploring other options.)
Anyway, back to the intricacies of FFE builds.
Yeh, he explored the Gateway/Expand whilst dying slowly option.
You may well be right. Either way, let's not derail the thread with that argument (or, for that matter, a balance whine).
It's been a great read, thus far, from all the Brotoss. |
| | "Consider fully, act decisively" - Jigoro Kano |
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| da_head Canada. March 24 2012 09:32. Posts 3127 | Profile Blog # |
On March 24 2012 09:14 chestnutcc wrote:
PS: Not to derail the thread with the imba whine, but why are stalkers more expensive than their counterparts which thrash the living day lights out of them.
I've been wondering this since release. The theme in bw was, toss units are more expensive, and more powerful (i.e dragoon). The theme of more expensive has carried over (125/50) yet it's weak as shit. I guess blizz justifies they're cost because of their versatility (6 range shoots up blink), but its honestly not worth it.
QQ |
| | When they see MC Probe, all the ladies disrobe. |
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| kcdc United States. March 24 2012 09:40. Posts 2311 | Profile Blog # |
Ease on the balance whine guys. I know I sometimes set a bad example whining about balance when I'm tilting after losing a bunch, but this particular thread is for brainstorming solutions, and not for blaming the referee. If you want to complain about how weak stalkers are for cost, hit up the designated balance thread. I'll agree with you over there.
Also, super lategame carrier-archon-mothership is OP, so Zergs have reason to whine too.
On March 24 2012 08:57 RaNgeD wrote:Alright so I took some of your advice kcdc, and I had a bit of insight of my own and this is the build that I came up with. It seems quite safe and I like the speed of the 3rd base (7:45~ish) In this replay the only mistake I saw was the fact that I didn't add my twilight on time, so my +2 is just a little late. Let me know what you think, and also if there are some ways to refine the build even more. Note: I like to refine my builds in single player, so this isn't against anyone, but still, it's pretty realistic of how my game would look if the zerg takes 3 hatch. http://drop.sc/140884
Looking forward to checking it out when I have time. Might be a couple days--we'll see. Last edit: 2012-03-24 09:41:40 |
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| Vetrocide Norway. March 24 2012 09:44. Posts 590 | Profile # |
I'm a zerg player but I hope we get to see MC play a lot of zergs, everyone is saying his PvZ is just sick
edit ; play a lot of zergs this mlg^^Last edit: 2012-03-24 09:44:27 |
| | The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal |
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| aebriol Norway. March 24 2012 09:47. Posts 2064 | Profile # |
On March 24 2012 09:44 Vetrocide wrote:
I'm a zerg player but I hope we get to see MC play a lot of zergs, everyone is saying his PvZ is just sick
edit ; play a lot of zergs this mlg^^
That's simply because he is one of the few protoss that understands that the 3 base build is weak against 2 base all in variants - and he has great micro when doing them. |
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 thrawn2112 United States. March 24 2012 09:48. Posts 3599 | Profile Blog # |
| huk seems to think that warping in non stop zealots at the zerg's third while making probes is the way to go |
| | "People think they know all these things about other people, and if you ask them why they think they know that, it'd be hard for them to be convincing." ES |
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